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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Mountain Man] #160406
01/15/14 05:49 PM
01/15/14 05:49 PM
APL  Offline
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Thus, burning people to death and drowning them is not an evil act. Got it! GOOD NEWS. Illuminating!


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Mountain Man] #160408
01/15/14 07:13 PM
01/15/14 07:13 PM
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kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Selfishness is the root of all sinning. Jesus set the standard. The law reflects it. Jesus employs fire and water to kill sinners. He also commands holy angels and righteous people to kill criminals and combatants. He even uses His enemies to kill sinners.
There's some passage APL quotes about Jesus on earth showed how God was. I'm sure you are familiar with it. Why did Ellen White write that passage and how does it apply here regarding "employs fire and water to kill sinners"?

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: APL] #160409
01/15/14 07:19 PM
01/15/14 07:19 PM
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kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
Thus, burning people to death and drowning them is not an evil act. Got it! GOOD NEWS. Illuminating!
Sometimes it's done for a good reason and sometimes it's done for a bad reason. It starts getting a little confusing when one believes in predestination and that evil people are employed by God to do evil acts for a good reason. When does God's manipulations of their actions stop and their choice and responsibility for their actions start? How does one determine whether they are under control of God to do evil acts for good or they are just doing evil acts for evil? How does one determine if the Inquisition was a "good" or "evil" thing when it was to punish the heretics, those who were "disagreeable"? Was God manipulating them or they were making evil choices? Hmmmm.... hard questions to answer!

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: kland] #160421
01/16/14 01:42 AM
01/16/14 01:42 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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1. Jesus employs fire and water to punish and kill. "The bowels of the earth were the Lord's arsenal, from which he drew forth the weapons he employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters in the bowels of the earth gushed forth, and united with the waters from heaven, to accomplish the work of destruction. Since the flood, God has used both water and fire in the earth as his agents to destroy wicked cities. {1SP 84.3}

2. Jesus uses His enemies to punish and kill. "God will use His enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth of God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored. {LDE 242.3}

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Mountain Man] #160423
01/16/14 01:48 AM
01/16/14 01:48 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Kland, you believe Jesus used the withdraw and permit principle of punishment in the OT. For example:

1. You believe He withdrew His restraining hand and permitted snakes to bite and kill men, women, and children. Where in the NT did Jesus do such things?

2. You also believe Jesus commanded holy men like Moses to punish and kill criminals and combatants. Where in the NT did Jesus command such a thing?

3. You also believe Jesus withdrew His protection and permitted evil men and evil angels to punish and kill Jews and Gentiles. When did Jesus do such a thing in the NT?

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Mountain Man] #160424
01/16/14 01:54 AM
01/16/14 01:54 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
The crystal sea (lake of fire)

The brightness of His presence fills the City of God, and flows out beyond the gates, flooding the whole earth with its radiance. {GC 665.1}

The radiant brightness of God's presence flooding the whole the earth is the lake of fire.

Originally Posted By: APL
Murder makes the crystal sea become the lake of fire

“Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire.” “The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter.” “Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.” Isaiah 9:5; Isaiah 34:2; Psalms 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven [APL: All natural protective laws have been rejected by the mob] . The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth’s surface seems one molten mass—a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men—“the day of the Lord’s vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion.” Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

Murder and self-acting nature turns the crystal sea into a lake of fire.

PS - APL, what is the lake of fire? It sounds like you are saying it is a mixture of 1) the radiant brightness of God's presence and 2) the blood of sinners.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Mountain Man] #160425
01/16/14 02:00 AM
01/16/14 02:00 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Kland, please answer the following questions:

1. A man withdraws his protection and permits his snakes to bite and kill men, women, and children. Is his act right or wrong? I believe it is wrong. Do you agree?

2. Jesus withdraws His protection and permits snakes to bite and kill men, women, and children. Is His act right or wrong? I believe it is right. Do you agree?

PS - I am absolutely certain you agree with me on both accounts. However, I am also pretty certain you are going to dodge answering these two questions.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: APL] #160441
01/16/14 04:51 AM
01/16/14 04:51 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
Thus, burning people to death and drowning them is not an evil act. Got it! GOOD NEWS. Illuminating!


Are you a modern Babel builder?

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The Babel builders had indulged the spirit of murmuring against God. Instead of gratefully remembering His mercy to Adam and His gracious covenant with Noah, they had complained of His severity in expelling the first pair from Eden and destroying the world by a flood. But while they murmured against God as arbitrary and severe, they were accepting the rule of the cruelest of tyrants. Satan was seeking to bring contempt upon the sacrificial offerings that prefigured the death of Christ; and as the minds of the people were darkened by idolatry, he led them to counterfeit these offerings and sacrifice their own children upon the altars of their gods. As men turned away from God, the divine attributes--justice, purity, and love--were supplanted by oppression, violence, and brutality. {PP 120.3}


The ancient Babel builders knew that God had destroyed the world by flood. It seems the modern ones have forgotten this.

But the worst part of the forgetfulness is the lack of gratitude toward God in remembering His mercy and His covenant with us. His praise should be ever upon our lips.

Praise God!

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Green Cochoa] #160446
01/16/14 06:53 AM
01/16/14 06:53 AM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Hm, lets see, green asks if I am a Babel builder, then quotes the fact that the Babel builders viewed God as arbitrary and severe! Green, is God a severe judge??? You say HE will burn and torture sinners! And he drowned them in the flood, right??? Seems that you are accusing me of your ideas. Satan accused God of having his own character. Was God the direct cause of the flood? You say yes.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Mountain Man] #160447
01/16/14 07:03 AM
01/16/14 07:03 AM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Kland, please answer the following questions:

1. A man withdraws his protection and permits his snakes to bite and kill men, women, and children. Is his act right or wrong? I believe it is wrong. Do you agree?

2. Jesus withdraws His protection and permits snakes to bite and kill men, women, and children. Is His act right or wrong? I believe it is right. Do you agree?

PS - I am absolutely certain you agree with me on both accounts. However, I am also pretty certain you are going to dodge answering these two questions.


MM does not understand. Only the Spirit can convict him of the truth. God withdrawing his protection from the serpents was not an arbitrary punishment inflicted on the people. God was being rejected by the people. They called HIM their worst enemy. God can not remain where He is not wanted. "The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan."


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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