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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Mountain Man] #160498
01/17/14 04:38 PM
01/17/14 04:38 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Midland
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Kland, since you agree with me (see below) please eplain our differences:

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Kland, please answer the following questions:

1. A man withdraws his protection and permits his snakes to bite and kill men, women, and children. Is his act right or wrong? I believe it is wrong. Do you agree?

2. Jesus withdraws His protection and permits snakes to bite and kill men, women, and children. Is His act right or wrong? I believe it is right. Do you agree?

PS - I am absolutely certain you agree with me on both accounts. However, I am also pretty certain you are going to dodge answering these two questions.
The only thing I agree with you on this is that these questions do not in any way address the base underlying presumptions.

You need to remove the whitewash and look into the crypt.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: kland] #160500
01/17/14 04:44 PM
01/17/14 04:44 PM
asygo  Offline
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He is attacking the very foundation of your doctrinal framework, showing that you do not really believe that God's actions are limited to the same actions Jesus performed during His 33 years here. For example, God permitted the fiery serpents to attack and kill the Israelites, but Jesus never did that in the NT. That disproves the idea that "Jesus came to show us what God is like" means "God will not do anything Jesus didn't do in the NT."


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: APL] #160502
01/17/14 05:18 PM
01/17/14 05:18 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
1. Jesus employs fire and water to punish and kill. "The bowels of the earth were the Lord's arsenal, from which he drew forth the weapons he employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters in the bowels of the earth gushed forth, and united with the waters from heaven, to accomplish the work of destruction. Since the flood, God has used both water and fire in the earth as his agents to destroy wicked cities. {1SP 84.3}

2. Jesus uses His enemies to punish and kill. "God will use His enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth of God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored. {LDE 242.3}

APL: GC35-37 answers HOW this is done.

Actually, GC 35-37 describes one of several ways Jesus punishes and kills sinners. The first passages posted above describes Jesus employing fire and water to punish and kill sinners. Nature is not self-acting. It cannot burn or drown sinners without Jesus empowering it to act. Jesus does not turn nature lose and let it punish and kill sinners. The second passage posted above describes Jesus using His enemies to punish and kill sinners. They serve as His ordained minsters of wrath.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: kland] #160504
01/17/14 05:27 PM
01/17/14 05:27 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
1. You believe He withdrew His restraining hand and permitted snakes to bite and kill men, women, and children. Where in the NT did Jesus do such things?

2. You also believe Jesus commanded holy men like Moses to punish and kill criminals and combatants. Where in the NT did Jesus command such a thing?

3. You also believe Jesus withdrew His protection and permitted evil men and evil angels to punish and kill Jews and Gentiles. When did Jesus do such a thing in the NT?

M: The obvious answers to the questions above make it clear Jesus in the NT (while here in the flesh) did not act like Jesus in the OT. Of course, there are things in common; however, there are things He didn't do while here in the flesh.

K: MM, I asked, "Why did Ellen White write that passage and how does it apply here regarding "employs fire and water to kill sinners"? I don't see how your response addresses this in any way.

You agree with me that Jesus did things in the OT He didn't do in the NT (while here in the flesh). Ellen White's comment about Jesus in the NT does not undermine what she wrote about Jesus in the OT. "The Saviour is revealed in the Old Testament as clearly as in the New." {DA 799.2}

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: kland] #160505
01/17/14 05:37 PM
01/17/14 05:37 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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Originally Posted By: kland
1. A man withdraws his protection and permits his snakes to bite and kill men, women, and children. Is his act right or wrong? I believe it is wrong. Do you agree?

2. Jesus withdraws His protection and permits snakes to bite and kill men, women, and children. Is His act right or wrong? I believe it is right. Do you agree?

M: I am absolutely certain you agree with me on both accounts. However, I am also pretty certain you are going to dodge answering these two questions.

K: The only thing I agree with you on this is that these questions do not in any way address the base underlying presumptions. You need to remove the whitewash and look into the crypt.

But the truth still stands - You agree with me. You believe Jesus punishes sinners by withdrawing His restraining hand and permitting nature, evil men, or evil angels to wreak havoc within the limits He sets and enforces. You have absolutely no problem with Jesus doing it. However, if anyone else did it you would find them guilty of wrongdoing. So, you see, you agree with me that Jesus can do "strange acts" that would be wrong and evil for anyone else to do.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Mountain Man] #160509
01/17/14 06:50 PM
01/17/14 06:50 PM
APL  Offline
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Quoting R. Ainslie (just some obscure author in Joe's Story - A simply version of the Bible book of Job)

God does not hurt
God does not punish
God does not condemn
God does not destroy
at any time
in any place
in any way
for any reason
 
Sin does all of these!

Last edited by APL; 01/17/14 06:51 PM.

Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: APL] #160513
01/18/14 01:27 AM
01/18/14 01:27 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Quoting Paul (a prominent inspired author of the Holy Bible):

1 Cor 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy . . . saith the LORD.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Mountain Man] #160515
01/18/14 02:38 AM
01/18/14 02:38 AM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Quote the whole verse MM:
1 Corinthians 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

God destroys just as He sent the serpents. God is not the executioner of the sentence against sin, as another inspired writer has penned. Satan is the destroyer, as the same writer has penned. The sinner brings the punishment on himself, as the same inspired writer has penned. Fits what I quoted previously!


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: APL] #160517
01/18/14 04:22 AM
01/18/14 04:22 AM
asygo  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: APL
Quoting R. Ainslie (just some obscure author in Joe's Story - A simply version of the Bible book of Job)

God does not hurt
God does not punish
God does not condemn
God does not destroy
at any time
in any place
in any way
for any reason
 
Sin does all of these!

While He does not delight in vengeance, He will execute judgment upon the transgressors of His law. He is forced to do this, to preserve the inhabitants of the earth from utter depravity and ruin. In order to save some He must cut off those who have become hardened in sin. {PP 628.1}

It was the mercy of God that thousands should suffer, to prevent the necessity of visiting judgments upon millions. In order to save the many, He must punish the few. Furthermore, as the people had cast off their allegiance to God, they had forfeited the divine protection, and, deprived of their defense, the whole nation was exposed to the power of their enemies. Had not the evil been promptly put away, they would soon have fallen a prey to their numerous and powerful foes. It was necessary for the good of Israel, and also as a lesson to all succeeding generations, that crime should be promptly punished. And it was no less a mercy to the sinners themselves that they should be cut short in their evil course. Had their life been spared, the same spirit that led them to rebel against God would have been manifested in hatred and strife among themselves, and they would eventually have destroyed one another. It was in love to the world, in love to Israel, and even to the transgressors, that crime was punished with swift and terrible severity. {PP 325.3}

This judgment and punisment executed in love and mercy you would credit sin as the source?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: asygo] #160518
01/18/14 04:40 AM
01/18/14 04:40 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Furthermore:

God has given in His word decisive evidence that He will punish the transgressors of His law. Those who flatter themselves that He is too merciful to execute justice upon the sinner, have only to look to the cross of Calvary. {GC 539.3}

Who will punish? Will sin execute justice?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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