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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #165025
05/15/14 04:56 PM
05/15/14 04:56 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
I believe Jesus, like all born-again believers, fought the "greatest battle". People who believe otherwise rob Jesus of the "completeness of His humanity". In truth they are saying - "We must resist the greatest temptation. But Jesus was immune. We are tempted in ways Jesus was unable to be tempted because He was unlike us. Jesus did not have to resist the greatest temptation. In this crucial way, Jesus is not our Substitute or Surety."

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Christ bore the sins and infirmities of the race as they existed when he came to the earth to help man. In behalf of the race, with the weaknesses of fallen man upon him, he was to stand the temptations of Satan upon all points wherewith man would be assailed. {RH, July 28, 1874 par. 3}

Those who claim that it was not possible for Christ to sin, cannot believe that He really took upon Himself human nature. But was not Christ actually tempted, not only by Satan in the wilderness, but all through His life, from childhood to manhood? Our Saviour took humanity, with all its liabilities. He took the nature of man, with the possibility of yielding to temptation. We have nothing to bear which He has not endured. {FLB 48}

Quote:
The warfare against self is the greatest battle that was ever fought. The yielding of self, surrendering all to the will of God, requires a struggle; but the soul must submit to God before it can be renewed in holiness. {SC 43.3}

The warfare against self is the greatest battle that was ever fought. The yielding of self, surrendering all to the will of God and being clothed with humility, possessing that love that is pure, peaceable, and easy to be entreated, full of gentleness and good fruits, is not an easy attainment. And yet it is his privilege and his duty to be a perfect overcomer here. The soul must submit to God before it can be renewed in knowledge and true holiness. {3T 106.2}

The Christian life is a battle and a march. But the victory to be gained is not won by human power. The field of conflict is the domain of the heart. The battle which we have to fight--the greatest battle that was ever fought by man--is the surrender of self to the will of God, the yielding of the heart to the sovereignty of love. The old nature, born of blood and of the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up. {MB 141.2}

He who determines to enter the spiritual kingdom will find that all the powers and passions of an unregenerate nature, backed by the forces of the kingdom of darkness, are arrayed against him. Selfishness and pride will make a stand against anything that would show them to be sinful. We cannot, of ourselves, conquer the evil desires and habits that strive for the mastery. We cannot overcome the mighty foe who holds us in his thrall. God alone can give us the victory. He desires us to have the mastery over ourselves, our own will and ways. But He cannot work in us without our consent and co-operation. The divine Spirit works through the faculties and powers given to man. Our energies are required to co-operate with God. {MB 141.3}

Jesus Himself, while He dwelt among men, was often in prayer. Our Saviour identified Himself with our needs and weakness, in that He became a suppliant, a petitioner, seeking from His Father fresh supplies of strength, that He might come forth braced for duty and trial. He is our example in all things. He is a brother in our infirmities, "in all points tempted like as we are;" but as the sinless one His nature recoiled from evil; He endured struggles and torture of soul in a world of sin. His humanity made prayer a necessity and a privilege. He found comfort and joy in communion with His Father. And if the Saviour of men, the Son of God, felt the need of prayer, how much more should feeble, sinful mortals feel the necessity of fervent, constant prayer. {SC 93.4}

As a man, Jesus also fought "the greatest battle" - else He is not our Example "in all things". Listen:

Quote:
As one of us He was to give an example of obedience. For this He took upon Himself our nature, and passed through our experiences. "In all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren." Hebrews 2:17. If we had to bear anything which Jesus did not endure, then upon this point Satan would represent the power of God as insufficient for us. Therefore Jesus was "in all points tempted like as we are." Hebrews 4:15. He endured every trial to which we are subject. And He exercised in His own behalf no power that is not freely offered to us. As man, He met temptation, and overcame in the strength given Him from God. He says, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart." Psalm 40:8. As He went about doing good, and healing all who were afflicted by Satan, He made plain to men the character of God's law and the nature of His service. His life testifies that it is possible for us also to obey the law of God. {DA 24.2}

"If we had to bear anything which Jesus did not endure, then upon this point Satan would represent the power of God as insufficient for us." To say Jesus did not fight "the greatest battle" is to "destroy the completeness of His humanity". Again, listen:

Quote:
Bear in mind that Christ's overcoming and obedience is that of a true human being. In our conclusions, we make many mistakes because of our erroneous views of the human nature of our Lord. When we give to His human nature a power that it is not possible for man to have in his conflicts with Satan, we destroy the completeness of His humanity. His imputed grace and power He gives to all who receive Him by faith. The obedience of Christ to His Father was the same obedience that is required of man. {3SM 139.4}

Man cannot overcome Satan's temptations without divine power to combine with His instrumentality. So with Jesus Christ, He could lay hold of divine power. He came not to our world to give the obedience of a lesser God to a greater, but as a man to obey God's Holy Law, and in this way He is our example. {3SM 140.1}

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #165026
05/15/14 04:58 PM
05/15/14 04:58 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Arnold, loved your lobster poem. Problem is - my apple is green. Ha! Nice work.

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #165030
05/15/14 08:22 PM
05/15/14 08:22 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
True believers are like Jesus - pure, holy, harmless, undefiled, wholly acceptable to God, without spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing, and separate from sinners. Ellen White states this truth over and over again. I have posted dozens of quotes as proof.

And I can cite a thousand times as many proofs to show that an apple is the same as a lobster. It still doesn't mean I'm proving what needs to be proved.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #165031
05/15/14 08:27 PM
05/15/14 08:27 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Jesus must perfume the fruit of faith for the simple reason it does not have merit. ... Again, the absence of merit is the problem. That's what Jesus adds to make it acceptable.

But you said sinless Adam did not have merit. Why was his meritless works acceptable? It would seem that lack of merit is not the underlying issue.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #165035
05/16/14 03:14 AM
05/16/14 03:14 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Sinless Adam is not relevant here. It's all about merit. "Then, perfumed with the merits of Christ's propitiation, the incense comes up before God wholly and entirely acceptable." Merit makes the difference. It is added. Sin is not covered, clothed, or removed. Sin is not a part of it. It is "pure and holy and undefiled".

"Christ gathers into the censer the prayers, the praise, and the sacrifices of his people, and with these he puts the merits of his spotless righteousness. Then, perfumed with the incense of Christ's propitiation, our prayers, wholly and entirely acceptable, rise before God, and gracious answers are returned."

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #165036
05/16/14 03:15 AM
05/16/14 03:15 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
"And I can cite a thousand times as many proofs to show that an apple is the same as a lobster." Lobsters are not relevant here. The truth is you cannot cite one inspired statement to prove it.

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #165037
05/16/14 03:19 AM
05/16/14 03:19 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
I believe Jesus, like all born-again believers, fought the "greatest battle". People who believe otherwise rob Jesus of the "completeness of His humanity". In truth they are saying - "We must resist the greatest temptation. But Jesus was immune. We are tempted in ways Jesus was unable to be tempted because He was unlike us. Jesus did not have to resist the greatest temptation. In this crucial way, Jesus is not our Substitute or Surety."

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Christ bore the sins and infirmities of the race as they existed when he came to the earth to help man. In behalf of the race, with the weaknesses of fallen man upon him, he was to stand the temptations of Satan upon all points wherewith man would be assailed. {RH, July 28, 1874 par. 3}

Those who claim that it was not possible for Christ to sin, cannot believe that He really took upon Himself human nature. But was not Christ actually tempted, not only by Satan in the wilderness, but all through His life, from childhood to manhood? Our Saviour took humanity, with all its liabilities. He took the nature of man, with the possibility of yielding to temptation. We have nothing to bear which He has not endured. {FLB 48}

Quote:
The warfare against self is the greatest battle that was ever fought. The yielding of self, surrendering all to the will of God, requires a struggle; but the soul must submit to God before it can be renewed in holiness. {SC 43.3}

The warfare against self is the greatest battle that was ever fought. The yielding of self, surrendering all to the will of God and being clothed with humility, possessing that love that is pure, peaceable, and easy to be entreated, full of gentleness and good fruits, is not an easy attainment. And yet it is his privilege and his duty to be a perfect overcomer here. The soul must submit to God before it can be renewed in knowledge and true holiness. {3T 106.2}

The Christian life is a battle and a march. But the victory to be gained is not won by human power. The field of conflict is the domain of the heart. The battle which we have to fight--the greatest battle that was ever fought by man--is the surrender of self to the will of God, the yielding of the heart to the sovereignty of love. The old nature, born of blood and of the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up. {MB 141.2}

He who determines to enter the spiritual kingdom will find that all the powers and passions of an unregenerate nature, backed by the forces of the kingdom of darkness, are arrayed against him. Selfishness and pride will make a stand against anything that would show them to be sinful. We cannot, of ourselves, conquer the evil desires and habits that strive for the mastery. We cannot overcome the mighty foe who holds us in his thrall. God alone can give us the victory. He desires us to have the mastery over ourselves, our own will and ways. But He cannot work in us without our consent and co-operation. The divine Spirit works through the faculties and powers given to man. Our energies are required to co-operate with God. {MB 141.3}

Jesus Himself, while He dwelt among men, was often in prayer. Our Saviour identified Himself with our needs and weakness, in that He became a suppliant, a petitioner, seeking from His Father fresh supplies of strength, that He might come forth braced for duty and trial. He is our example in all things. He is a brother in our infirmities, "in all points tempted like as we are;" but as the sinless one His nature recoiled from evil; He endured struggles and torture of soul in a world of sin. His humanity made prayer a necessity and a privilege. He found comfort and joy in communion with His Father. And if the Saviour of men, the Son of God, felt the need of prayer, how much more should feeble, sinful mortals feel the necessity of fervent, constant prayer. {SC 93.4}

As a man, Jesus also fought "the greatest battle" - else He is not our Example "in all things". Listen:

Quote:
As one of us He was to give an example of obedience. For this He took upon Himself our nature, and passed through our experiences. "In all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren." Hebrews 2:17. If we had to bear anything which Jesus did not endure, then upon this point Satan would represent the power of God as insufficient for us. Therefore Jesus was "in all points tempted like as we are." Hebrews 4:15. He endured every trial to which we are subject. And He exercised in His own behalf no power that is not freely offered to us. As man, He met temptation, and overcame in the strength given Him from God. He says, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart." Psalm 40:8. As He went about doing good, and healing all who were afflicted by Satan, He made plain to men the character of God's law and the nature of His service. His life testifies that it is possible for us also to obey the law of God. {DA 24.2}

"If we had to bear anything which Jesus did not endure, then upon this point Satan would represent the power of God as insufficient for us." To say Jesus did not fight "the greatest battle" is to "destroy the completeness of His humanity". Again, listen:

Quote:
Bear in mind that Christ's overcoming and obedience is that of a true human being. In our conclusions, we make many mistakes because of our erroneous views of the human nature of our Lord. When we give to His human nature a power that it is not possible for man to have in his conflicts with Satan, we destroy the completeness of His humanity. His imputed grace and power He gives to all who receive Him by faith. The obedience of Christ to His Father was the same obedience that is required of man. {3SM 139.4}

Man cannot overcome Satan's temptations without divine power to combine with His instrumentality. So with Jesus Christ, He could lay hold of divine power. He came not to our world to give the obedience of a lesser God to a greater, but as a man to obey God's Holy Law, and in this way He is our example. {3SM 140.1}

Jesus, like all born-again believers, fought the "greatest battle".

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #165038
05/16/14 04:16 AM
05/16/14 04:16 AM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Do not forget, either, that the mystery of God is not God manifest in sinless flesh, but God manifest in sinful flesh. There could never be any mystery about God's manifesting himself in sinless flesh—in one who had no connection whatever with sin. That would be plain enough. But that he can manifest himself in flesh laden with sin and with all the tendencies of sin, such as ours is—that is a mystery. Yea, it is the mystery of God. And it is a glorious fact, thank the Lord! Believe it. And before all the world, and for the joy of every person in the world, in Jesus Christ he has demonstrated that this great mystery is indeed a fact in human experience. For "as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same." "In all things it behooved him to be made like unto his brethren." And therefore God "made him to be sin for us." "He hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." Thus, in our flesh, having our nature, laden with iniquity, and himself made to be sin, Christ Jesus lived in this world, tempted in all points like as we are; and yet God always caused him to triumph in him, and made manifest the savor of his knowledge by him in every place. Thus God was manifest in the flesh,—in our flesh, in human flesh laden with sin,—and made to be sin in itself, weak and tempted as ours is. And thus the mystery of God was made known to all nations for the obedience of faith. O, believe it! {September 29, 1896 ATJ, ARSH 621.7}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #165044
05/16/14 06:44 AM
05/16/14 06:44 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
Banned
SDA
Active Member 2015

3500+ Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
I believe Jesus, like all born-again believers, fought the "greatest battle". People who believe otherwise rob Jesus of the "completeness of His humanity". In truth they are saying - "We must resist the greatest temptation. But Jesus was immune. We are tempted in ways Jesus was unable to be tempted because He was unlike us.

Those who claim that it was not possible for Christ to sin, cannot believe that He really took upon Himself human nature.



Where in anything that I or anyone else here wrote has claimed that Jesus could not have sinned? You prove you are not listening. I could go back and quote dozens of times where others and myself have said that Jesus could have sinned. He was the second Adam, and Adam DID SIN! The life of Jesus was like God hit the reset button for a human being to come to the world with the same Character that Adam was created with. Jesus was the second Adam but you say that is not relevant here? Totally ignorant statement.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #165045
05/16/14 07:00 AM
05/16/14 07:00 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
Banned
SDA
Active Member 2015

3500+ Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA

Quote:
The old nature, born of blood and of the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up. {MB 141.2}


This is where I hope you can see your error here. Above is one of the quotes you used Mt Man. The subject of that quote never even mentions Jesus having these tendencies. Are you going to stand before God and say that Jesus was born with inherited tendencies and former habits to give up? Could it be possible that Jesus would have lost the kingdom of God? If that is your belief then you do not believe the Spirit of Prophecy or scripture which states very clearly that Jesus didn't have the propensity for sin. He did not have the rebellious attributes that we are born with.

You better be very careful in how you respond! You are being judged right now, I am here to tell you in the name of Jesus.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Sinless Adam is not relevant here.


That sounds like someone who refuses to see the balance in all of the quotes available and builds his whole doctrine around a narrow approach to what is available. That is the "close your ears so you cannot hear" approach.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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