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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: James Peterson] #165221
05/21/14 12:44 AM
05/21/14 12:44 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
I gave two examples. The first one, you answered. What of the second?

James, both examples are similar, as I said.

Quote:
Returning to your answer to the first example: Reneging on a promise is NOT "bearing false witness against your neighbour"; and neither is it lying. You are just hell-bent on shoe-horning the action into the ninth commandment. Rather, it is causing someone to hope in vain.

Of course breaking a promise is lying, of course it's saying something which will bring disadvantage or damage to the other person because of its nonfulfillment. Please read Numbers 23:19 and Hebrews 6:18.

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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: James Peterson] #165222
05/21/14 12:51 AM
05/21/14 12:51 AM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Again, I direct you to Mark 3:1-6.

What is the problem with Mark 3:1-6?

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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: James Peterson] #165223
05/21/14 01:04 AM
05/21/14 01:04 AM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
"Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 'Teacher, WHICH IS THE GREAT COMMANDMENT IN THE LAW?'

Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.'" (Mat. 22:35-40 cf. Mark 3:1-6)

The ten commandments can be summarized in the two commandments of love to God and love to men, and these two can be summarized in just one word - love. This doesn't mean that love makes the two commandments unnecessary, or that the two make the ten unnecessary. After the fall, specific sins had to be spelled out as violations of the law of love. It doesn't make sense to command unfallen creatures to not kill, to not steal, to not commit adultery, etc., but it does make sense to say this clearly to sinful creatures who would have a deadened sensitivity to sin and a twisted notion of love.

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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: Rosangela] #165227
05/21/14 03:17 AM
05/21/14 03:17 AM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Be careful

James, Thayer's lexicon became obsolete because of new archaeological evidence which brought light upon some words, but obviously this is not the case with anomia, whose meaning has always been well known.
About the Bible, it's inerrant in religious matters, but it may have small incorrections in the realm of history and science.

You may want to begin your studies here: Biblical hermeneutics

Or you may want to start reading the Bible for yourself. You have a very naive approach to the text.

///

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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: Rosangela] #165232
05/21/14 04:57 AM
05/21/14 04:57 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Gordon, Luther translated the Bible to German. His Greek and his Hebrew didn't lead him to accept the Sabbath. Yet you can't say he was lost, neither can you say his Bible version can't be trusted.
As I said, if you can't trust Greek scholars, then you must be able to read the Bible in Greek - and the Greek used in the Bible is a dead language, so you will have to learn it with a Greek scholar.

Who proclaimed the Sabbath truth in Luther's day? Thayer, on the other hand, would have been confronted with the concept of the Sabbath in the newspaper. Furthermore, it was Thayer who was writing his commentaries on the Bible, thus requiring close textual comparisons and study. Luther was not doing this type of study to the same degree. He was simply translating using his knowledge of the Greek and Hebrew. Luther wrote no concordance, lexicon, nor commentary on the Bible (as far as I'm aware--though others compiled a "commentary" based on his sermons and called it his commentary, e.g. for the book of Galatians: see here for more about this). He was given certain truths to teach the people in his time, and he did his duty well. The Sabbath was not given him, nor are we aware of anyone having ever brought the matter to Luther's attention.

Thayer had the possibility of accepting that to which Luther was never exposed.

I have, personally, seen a number of errors in Thayer's perspective, and I don't put much trust in his commentary. Those who like to lean on the commentaries most are generally those who have desired to take a shortcut in their own study of the Bible for themselves. If we study it for ourselves, we soon find the commentaries are no better than what we can find through God's Spirit to us individually. Sometimes the commentaries may be helpful, but other times they are erroneous. It is not wise to place undue confidence in them. They are not inspired. We must be Bereans and find the facts for ourselves.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: Rosangela] #165238
05/21/14 09:37 AM
05/21/14 09:37 AM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Active Member 2019

Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
"Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 'Teacher, WHICH IS THE GREAT COMMANDMENT IN THE LAW?'

Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.'" (Mat. 22:35-40 cf. Mark 3:1-6)

The ten commandments can be summarized in the two commandments of love to God and love to men, and these two can be summarized in just one word - love. This doesn't mean that love makes the two commandments unnecessary, or that the two make the ten unnecessary. After the fall, specific sins had to be spelled out as violations of the law of love. It doesn't make sense to command unfallen creatures to not kill, to not steal, to not commit adultery, etc., but it does make sense to say this clearly to sinful creatures who would have a deadened sensitivity to sin and a twisted notion of love.

You are unduly obsessed with the letter of the Decalogue. When the lawyer asked him which was THE GREAT commandment in the Law, Jesus did not quote the Decalogue, nor did he point to it. He said rather, "YOU SHALL LOVE," and then again, "IT is everything." The Law of love and faith is the one consistently being established in the New Testament as the foundation of the Church, not the Decalogue. The latter served merely to teach the Hebrews how to love by prohibition against common vile practices in their day. Their heart, as a people, was a heart of stone; and so that generation ended up wasting away in the wilderness.

Mark 3:1-6 unequivocally demonstrates this.

///

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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: Rosangela] #165239
05/21/14 10:22 AM
05/21/14 10:22 AM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Active Member 2019

Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
I gave two examples. The first one, you answered. What of the second?

James, both examples are similar, as I said.

Quote:
Returning to your answer to the first example: Reneging on a promise is NOT "bearing false witness against your neighbour"; and neither is it lying. You are just hell-bent on shoe-horning the action into the ninth commandment. Rather, it is causing someone to hope in vain.

Of course breaking a promise is lying, of course it's saying something which will bring disadvantage or damage to the other person because of its nonfulfillment. Please read Numbers 23:19 and Hebrews 6:18.

In the passages that you quoted, we are being assured of the things God has promised. That has nothing to do with having reneged, but with making the promise (hence the reference to God not lying). As I said, reneging on a promise is "NOT 'bearing false witness against your neighbour'; and neither is it lying. You are just hell-bent on shoe-horning the action into the ninth commandment. Rather, it is causing someone to hope in vain." Expressed positively, "you shall keep your vows, even if it hurts."

Also: "if you deliberately jumped a red light while driving, you are guilty of sin against society. There is no law in the Scriptures against jumping a red light, but by being granted a license to drive, you entered into an agreement to obey all the traffic laws of the land. You have sinned against the Board. That has nothing to do with the Decalogue."

The Law of Love and faith is the fundamental and eternal principle of God"s Throne and character. It is the law by which we shall be judged in the last day. See Mat. 25:31-46.

///

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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: James Peterson] #165252
05/21/14 04:07 PM
05/21/14 04:07 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: James Peterson
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: James Peterson
Did you read Mark 3:1-6? I don't think so. And lest you be hasty in your self-righteous judgement, consider 1 John 2:1, "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. AND IF ANY MAN SIN, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."

There's no problem with the verses. The problem is your being obnoxious and arrogant. That says much more about your teachings than the verses you cite in vain. If someone is wrong, just point it out and we can learn truth. But if you stand as an accuser of the brethren, we just learn that you're a jerk. It's up to you what you want us to learn.

Is asking that SDA do "NOT return to the vomit of pride in Sabbath-keeping", making myself an accuser of the brethren? Why do you refuse to heed the salient message in Mark 3:1-6?

No, that part was good. The jerk part was, "Dear SDA, unlike what you have been fed, the Ten Commandments as all the rest of the Jewish Old Testament laws as given by God served only to teach us how to express that love. Doing them and marking up a chalkboard of merits in no way commends you to God."

You speak as if you can read the heart. But it comes from the father of lies. You clearly have no clue about what Adventism teaches.

And if you think the Pharisees were the gold standard on Sabbath keeping in Mark 3, then you are equally clueless on what the Bible teaches about Sabbath observance. Had you been "fed" with the truths of Adventism, you would know that Jesus was the example of true Sabbath keeping, not the Pharisees.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: Green Cochoa] #165265
05/21/14 06:11 PM
05/21/14 06:11 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Who proclaimed the Sabbath truth in Luther's day?

He may not have been as ignorant of it as we often think.

Originally Posted By: http://www.remnantofgod.org/sabhist.htm#16
"I find from a passage in Erasmus that at the early period of the Reformantion when he wrote, there were Sabbatarians in Bohemia, who not only kept the seventh day, but were said to be...scrupulous in resting on it." Literature of the Sabbath Question, Cox, Vol. II, pp. 201, 202

Originally Posted By: https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1955/07/is-there-a-relationship-between-luther-and-seventh-day-adventists
He argued repeatedly that those who kept the "Jewish Sabbath" should also practice cir­cumcision. He said, "If Carlstadt writes more about the Sabbath, Sunday must give way and the Sabbath—that is, Saturday—must be kept holy. He would really in all things make Jews out of us and require circumcision." Luther quoted in this connection Galatians 5:3, "For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law."

Luther believed that the Sabbath must be kept, but that Christians were free to observe any day as the Sabbath. It is difficult to assert precisely what Carlstadt's beliefs and practices were. "We do not know whether Carlstadt ever took a positive stand for the seventh-day Sab­bath. But we do know that many groups of Sabbath keepers were in existence in various places of Central Europe after he began to write on Sabbath observance." 2 There were Christians who kept the seventh-day Sabbath in Luther's time, and he referred to them on several occasions. In discussing them, he was so convinced that the seventh-day Sabbath was not the true day of rest that he went so far as to say that even the patriarchs did not keep the Sabbath.' Concerning the Sabbathkeepers, or "Sabbathers," Luther said this:

"We find in our day in Moravia a foolish rabble folk that call themselves the Sabbathers. They con­tend that we must, according to the Jewish regula­tions and customs, keep the Sabbath; and perhaps they will yet in time lay a similar requirement for circumcision.

"There are in Austria and Moravia, as it is re­ported to me, people at this time that in Jewish manner keep the Sabbath and compel circumcision. If these people come in contact with people that are not properly instructed in God's Word, they will do great damage."
Martin Luther, "Auslegung von 1. Mose" (Genesis), Schriften (Walch ed.), vol. 1, cols. 873, 1009-1010.

Originally Posted By: https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1955/07/is-there-a-relationship-between-luther-and-seventh-day-adventists
Those who judge that by the authority of the church the observance of the Lord's day instead of the Sabbath day was ordained as a thing necessary, do greatly err. Scripture has abrogated the Sabbath day; for it teaches that since the gospel has been revealed, all the ceremonies of the old law can be omitted. And yet, because it was necessary to appoint a certain day that the people might know when they ought to come together, it appears that the church [the apostles] designated the Lord's day for this purpose; and this day seems to have been chosen all the more for this additional reason, that mess might have an example of Christian liberty and might know that the keeping neither of the Sabbath nor of any other day is necessary.
Augsburg Confession, Article 28

But more importantly, did not the Holy Spirit lead men to truth through His word in Luther's day as He did in Bates' day? Are we to be dependent on man's proclamation more than God's word? To be clear, it doesn't matter if any person proclaimed the Sabbath in Luther's day because he could read the Bible for himself and the Holy Spirit could teach him just as well then as now.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: James Peterson] #165278
05/21/14 10:01 PM
05/21/14 10:01 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
You may want to begin your studies here: Biblical hermeneutics

Or you may want to start reading the Bible for yourself. You have a very naive approach to the text.

I have a naive approach to the text? Let me ask you something.

Matt. 23:35 says: so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Berachiah, whom you killed between the temple and the altar.

Please tell me, is this historical information correct according to the OT? Please read 2 Chron. 24.

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