What does Revelation 12:13-17 mean?

“And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” Rev. 12:13-17.

Nearly all Christians agree that the only tenable interpretation of the “woman” here mentioned, is that she symbolical the church. And the fact that she gave birth to the man child, Christ, shows that she is therefore symbolical of the church in at least the Christian dispensation.

While the dragon was persecuting her through the deceived Jewish priests who rejected Christ as the Messiah, “there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him. As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison. Therefore they that were scattered abroad went everywhere preaching the Word.” Acts 8:1-4.

To her were therefore given the wings of a great eagle---her means of transport into the wilderness. And being the opposite of the vineyard (“the house of Israel, and the men of Judah His pleasant plant”---lsa. 5:7), the wilderness obviously denotes the Gentile nations. The apostles, therefore, in fulfillment of this prophecy were commanded, and given the wings, speedily to go preach to all nations.

“Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the Word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

And when the Gentiles, heard this, they were glad, and glorified the Word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. And the Word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.” Acts 13:46-49.

Seeing this, the serpent sought to destroy the woman’s usefulness among the Gentiles: he “cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.” Rev. 12:15.

Anyone can see that this “flood” can represent only the church’s suddenly becoming infiltrated with unconverted pagans who, as in Constantine’s time and for years thereafter, were even taken en masse and forced into baptism.

In the parables of Christ this same “flood” is described, but under the different term, “tares.” And the evident fact that they are still very much in the church, forces the painful realization that the earth has not as yet swallowed up the flood.

“Flood” and “tares” are figurative equivalents. The swallowing of the flood, therefore is the same as the burning of the tares as comprehended in the parable of the harvest (Matt. 13:3).

Besides, the Revelator points out that not until after the flood is swallowed by the earth after the unconverted are “slain” and buried and the church thereby purified, will the dragon wage his fiercest warfare against the remnant of the woman’s seed. Hence, the harvest time in the church, the time the earth swallows the flood, is before the dragon wars against the remnant.

“Fruits” garnered are the result of a harvest. When the 144,000, the first fruits (Rev. 14:4), are garnered in, and the tares (flood) are destroyed (swallowed) from among them, the 144,000 are taken to Mt. Zion, where they then comprise the Mother church, the twelve-star-crowned woman, under the protection of the Lamb, the One with them. Thus protected, she is secure from the dragon’s then making war against her.

So he wars only against her “remnant,” those yet to be garnered-the second fruits still scattered throughout the world, away from Mt. Zion. This climax of the ages was vividly foretold by both Isaiah and Micah:

“But in the last days,” declares Micah, “it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow into it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and He will teach us of His ways and we will walk in His paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the Word of the Lord from Jerusalem.” Mic. 4:1, 2. (See also Isaiah 2).

From these scriptures, it is plainly seen that Mt. Zion becomes the headquarters for the last gospel work on earth, after the time the 144,000 arrive there, and during the time the dragon wars against the remnant “for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the Word of the Lord from Jerusalem”-no longer from the General Conference, or from Mt. Carmel Center.

Then shall many nations say, “Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord and to the house of the God of Jacob; and He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths.” Mic. 4:2. (SC, vol. 2, Q-26)

Interesting perspective. Time will tell if you or Ellen White was shown the correct interpretation.

Yes, very interesting. If you find anything you have questions about let me know.

Actually this interpretation in important areas is backed up by EGW.
Woman=Church
Flood=Unconverted in church

The "opened it's mouth" obviously is an symbolic act of deliverance by non-human source. This cleansing enrages Satan, just as he was enraged at the pure Apostolic church after Christ's ascension.

For further confirmation we suggest Isaiah 66.

"For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.

And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD." (Isaiah 66:15-20)

I don't believe you will find that properly backed up in Mrs. White's writings. We often use the term "flood" in modern English idiomatically to represent too much of something...anything. But the Bible is not using it in this sense, nor does Mrs. White in speaking of the Biblical passages for this.

Let the Bible interpret itself. This means Revelation 17:15 must be given proper consideration in light of Revelation 12:15-17.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Is reads as though you are using Mount Zion in a literal sense.

But the beast with lamblike horns was seen "coming up out of the earth." Instead of overthrowing other powers to establish itself, the nation thus represented must arise in territory previously unoccupied and grow up gradually and peacefully. It could not, then, arise among the crowded and struggling nationalities of the Old World--that turbulent sea of "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues." It must be sought in the Western Continent. {GC 440.1}

The dignitaries of church and state will unite to bribe, persuade, or compel all classes to honor the Sunday. The lack of divine authority will be supplied by oppressive enactments. Political corruption is destroying love of justice and regard for truth; and even in free America, rulers and legislators, in order to secure public favor, will yield to the popular demand for a law enforcing Sunday observance. Liberty of conscience, which has cost so great a sacrifice, will no longer be respected. In the soon-coming conflict we shall see exemplified the prophet's words: "The dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Revelation 12:17. {GC 592.3}

The condition of the world previous to the first appearing of Christ is a picture of the condition of the world just previous to His second advent. The same iniquity will exist, Satan manifests the same delusive power upon the minds of men. He is setting his trained agents at work, and moving them to intense activity. He is securing his army of human agents to engage in the last conflict against the Prince of life, to overthrow the law of God, which is the foundation of His throne. Satan will work with miraculous presentations to confirm men in the belief that he is what he claims to be,--the prince of this world, and that victory is his. He will turn his forces against those who are loyal to God, but though he may cause pain, distress, and human agony, he cannot defile the soul. He may cause affliction to the people of God as he did to Christ, but he cannot cause one of Christ's little ones to perish. The people of God in these last days must expect to enter into the thick of the conflict; for the prophetic Word says, "The dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" (Letter 43, 1895). {4BC 1153.2}

"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." In the near future we shall see these words fulfilled as the Protestant churches unite with the world and with the papal power against commandment keepers. The same spirit which actuated papists in ages past will lead Protestants to pursue a similar course toward those who will maintain their loyalty to God. {5T 449.2}

Church and state are now making preparations for the future conflict. Protestants are working in disguise to bring Sunday to the front, as did the Romanists. Throughout the land the papacy is piling up her lofty and massive structures, in the secret recesses of which her former persecutions are to be repeated. And the way is preparing for the manifestation, on a grand scale, of those lying wonders by which, if it were possible, Satan would deceive even the elect. {5T 449.3}

"To secure converts, the exalted standard of the Christian faith was lowered, and as the result "a pagan flood, flowing into the church, carried with it its customs, practices, and idols." --Gavazzi, Lectures, page 278. As the Christian religion secured the favor and support of secular rulers, it was nominally accepted by multitudes; but while in appearance Christians, many "remained in substance pagans, especially worshiping in secret their idols."- (Great Controversy, p.385)

EGW under inspiration quotes the above reference with her confirmation as to it's truth , obviously.

"Has not the same process been repeated in nearly every church calling itself Protestant? As the founders, those who possessed the true spirit of reform, pass away, their descendants come forward and "new-model the cause." While blindly clinging to the creed of their fathers and refusing to accept any truth in advance of what they saw, the children of the reformers depart widely from their example of humility, self-denial, and renunciation of the world. Thus "the first simplicity disappears." A worldly flood, flowing into the church, carries "with it its customs, practices, and idols." (GC, p.385)

The flood here in the above ref. talk about those who are carrying their predecessors false customs. They are the people who "carries 'with it it's customs, practices, and idols".

It clearly shows that a "flood" describes those who come into the church, not converted, but rather holding onto sin, thus serving Satan rather than God. A church flood in other words.

"Is reads as though you are using Mount Zion in a literal sense."

This is another subject altogether. Hopefully Lord willing I'd like to address the 'pre-millineal" kingdom. This kingdom is spoken in many many areas of OT. What is so powerful is that God's words are not conditional.(Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, etc.)

"I will" "It shall" etc are the Lord's words concerning this. There are no "if's" or "maybes" in the contexts.There are two promises as we know--conditional and unconditional.

This pre-mil kingdom will not be a "government" kingdom but a theocracy and based on His word (promises).

"Whatever may be man’s intellectual advancement, let him not for a moment think that there is no need of thorough and continuous searching of the Scriptures for greater light. As a people we are called individually to be students of prophecy. We must watch with earnestness that we may discern any ray of light which God shall present to us. We are to catch the first gleamings of truth; and through prayerful study clearer light may be obtained, which can be brought before others" (Testimonies, vol. 5, p.708)

Rev. 12:1-6 -- "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: and she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red Dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

The Great Controversy between Christ and Satan.
A great wonder! The Creator of the Universe descends from heaven to literally dwell with His people in human flesh. But someone else came from heaven as well – the great rebel angel who started the whole mess while he was an exalted angel in heaven. He is now devil, satan and strains every power to destroy His Creator.

And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the Dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to His throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days."


But the woman fled into the wilderness to be nourished there for 1260 days.
How do you explain the 1260 days if she fled into the wilderness after the stoning of Stephen?


And what evidence is there that “wilderness” is Gentile nations?

The Greek word “eremos” (translated wilderness in Rev. 12) means “solitary, lonely, desolate, uninhabited” as seen in the following verses.
Matt. 3:1 John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness (eremos)
Matt. 4:1 Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness
(eremos)
Matt. 14:13 he departed thence by ship into a desert (eremas)
Mark 1:35 he went out, and departed into a solitary (eremas) place to pray

The word is used 50 times in the NT and each and every time it means a solitary, desolate, desert, uninhabited place.

Examples of Biblical people in the wilderness:

--David's years in the Judean wilderness as a fugitive from King Saul
--The children of Israel fleeing into the wilderness from Egypt and being sustained there for 40 years.
--The day of atonement sees the Azazel Goat sent into the wilderness, a land uninhabited.

There isn’t the slightest indication that “wilderness” means the inhabited lands and cities of the Gentiles.



In modern speech “a flood of pagans” entering the church sounds reasonable. And we also know the entry into the church of vast amounts of half converted pagans was a very big reason why the main Christian church fell into apostasy.

Yet is this really the Biblical meaning here in Rev. 12?
Again remember the woman fled into the wilderness for the 1260 days (years). What period of history did these 1260 years cover? When did they begin? Which tells us when the woman fled into the wilderness.


It was because the main Christian church had apostatised and was now persecuting the true believers that “the woman” fled into the wilderness (an uninhabited place) for 1260 years, the time period between 538-1798.
The true church was not the church in the inhabited cities, the true church was in the mountains and wilderness areas for safety.

The flood:
How does the bible use that word in symbolic usage?

You will find it is used in terms of “war” with armies coming in like a flood sweeping away civilizations and peoples.

Jeremiah 46:8 “Egypt riseth up like a flood, and his waters are moved like the rivers; and he saith, I will go up, and will cover the earth; I will destroy the city and the inhabitants thereof
Jeremiah 47:2 Thus saith the LORD; Behold, waters rise up out of the north, and shall be an overflowing flood, and shall overflow the land, and all that is therein; the city, and them that dwell therein: then the men shall cry, and all the inhabitants of the land shall howl.
Nah. 1:8 But with an overrunning flood he will make an utter end of the place thereof

It was in the years when the papacy was at its height -- that a ruthless campaign to purge out God's church took place. Many times they were able to escape but by the 1400's the papacy was desperate to rid the world of her opponent.

Revelation 12 tells of these dreadful crusades against the church in the wilderness.

12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.


It was the height of the papal oppression and cruelty, as that flood of soldiers and ruffians, urged on by promises of absolution and heaven, swept through the mountain valleys to purge out the hated church, but it's power was soon to be broken.

12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Not only did the Reformation arise, but also a new land was discovered to which people would soon flee where Roman armies would not pursue them. A new form of government developed – republicanism with protestant ideals, that flourished in the new country and gave rise to era of Religious freedom.
God’s Word was freely studied and taught, truth was found.

But the dragon will make one last terrible campaign against God’s commandment people who have the faith of Jesus.
Revelation 13 discloses the shocking truth that the very land (the beast that rose from the earth) that helped the woman, will yet speak for the dragon and bring deadly persecution.

GL&L, how do you interpret the 1260 days? How do you interpret the "earth"?

This sheds some light on the 1260 days.

Non- Descript Beast - Papal Rome
Read:
Verse 8,19-25
a. This verse revealed Rome’s transformation from paganism to so-called Christianity. It is identified as such because:
i. A little horn came up with eyes and a mouth which blasphemed God, and persecuted His people (verse 8, 25). This clearly points to the Popes (Papacy).
ii. It thought to change Laws (like the Sabbath), and doctrines (like the Sanctuary, etc.).
iii. It was allowed to do this for a time (one year), times (two years) and dividing of time (half year) - a total of three and half years or 1260 days or years, (a day for a year - Ezek. 4:6) 538 -1798 AD
b. All of this clearly points to the papacy and its rule from 538-1798 AD as the “little horn”(verse 8).
c. It is further proven because the “little horn” uprooted three other horns —the Herulis, Ostrogoths, and the Vandals – so-called Barbarian nations who supported Arianism, the most formidable rival of Catholicism.
Note:
By the time of the rise of the Papacy, Rome had been divided into Eastern and Western Empires. In 476 AD, the West fell to Barbarians tribes. The East had been preserved by its embracing “Christianity” - a process which began with Constantine the great’s so-called conversion and his Edict of Tolerance which seemed to have halted the persecution of Christians (for a short time) making Christianity the State Religion.
d. Thus, the Fourth beast covers the period of both Pagan and Papal Rome, the time of Christ, and through the Dark Ages.
Summary:
Daniel Seven reveals the rise and decline of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome. The rise of Papal Rome- who has impacted our Modern World more than any other power, and prepared the way for Present -Day Civilization.

Education Department
Davidic Levitical Institute
Mt. Carmel,
Mountain Dale, New York


As far as the earth. This can only be as represented already in type-- The swallowing of the earth of the unconverted and impostors. Korah and his gang (Numbers chapter 16). We know that type and anti- type follow the same pattern (although not always exactly in all details) So logically the earth 'swallowing" means to do a cleansing work as it did in type. Notice as well that this is God's direct hand , nothing to do with man's involvement. In fact the opposite, man got out of the way and beheld God 'take the reins into His own hands".

1260 = 538-1798.
Earth = God eliminating unconverted and imposters.

I think you may have shared what the earth coming to help the woman will look like GLL but I can't remember. The Shepard's Rod have a definite view if I remember right. What's yours and what's theirs?

Spot on bro. MM

The Rod is where I get much of my understanding. The view of rev. 12 is from brother Houteff's interpretation, which I concur.

"Hear ye the rod, and Who has appointed it" (Micah 6:9)

What "rod" has ever spoke? As far as I know, only one.

Which rod spoke? In Micah it's the Lord's rod that speaks which is a figure for the judgments the Lord sends in mercy as a call to repentance. But I'm interested in your view GLL.

Regarding the earth swallowing up the tares, the wheat and tares grow together until the harvest is finished at the close of probation. The church will not be pure until it is shaken mainly by persecution and persecution lasts until probation closes and beyond during Jacob's time of trouble. Just before that when the 144,000 give the three angel's messages with power, there will still be tares in the church. At the outpouring of the early rain there were tares then (the falling away had just begun) and it will be similar in the future. We will not know who the 144,000 are until after the close of probation. Why? Because Joel tells us that the Holy Spirit will be poured out on all flesh. Praise the Lord!

"Which rod spoke? In Micah it's the Lord's rod that speaks which is a figure for the judgments the Lord sends in mercy as a call to repentance. But I'm interested in your view GLL."

I should have used the whole quote--
"The LORD'S voice cries to the city-- Wisdom shall see Your name. Hear ye the rod, and Who has appointed it."

The Rod is actually the "Lord's voice". But who does He speak through? Prophets (Amos 3:7) and He has called it to speak (appointed it).

"Regarding the earth swallowing up the tares, the wheat and tares grow together until the harvest is finished at the close of probation.."

The lesson that Rev. 12 shows us is a timeline, yes? Notice the earth swallows the unconverted PRIOR to Satan going after the remnant. Then it is that Satan goes to war "time of trouble such as never was".

Let us realize that right now Satan is content. Why? because the church is over run with tares. The ONLY thing that Inspiration shows us that will "enrage" Him is when he sees that his deceitful purpose and plan (causing a flood of tares in the church)is eliminated within the church.

So you are right in one sense that they grow together, which is right now, but once the earth swallows the tares, there now is a pure church. That is the reason Satan gets enraged. Remember when the Apostolic church was pure and signs and wonders amazed the people? Satan was enraged also and then the terrible persecution came (eaten by lions, burned alive, etc.)

But we notice that he changed plans and said "if I can't beat them I'll join them". Since then his plan has been absolutely wondrous in working. Once the Lord stops it cold, we'll see him go back to his prior plan of persecution.

Here's an entire chapter that depicts the latter rain. Notice what brings it on:

Isa 49:1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
Isa 49:2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
Isa 49:3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
. . .
Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, [12,000 per tribe] and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
Isa 49:7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, [God's persecuted remnant.] to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
Isa 49:8 Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
Isa 49:9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; [originally this referred to King Cyrus who released the Hebrews from Babylonian captivity. See the previous few chapters. But it especially applies to the end and the spiritual liberation of the remnant from spiritual Babylon and deliverance from the mark of the beast.] to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.
Isa 49:10 They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.
Isa 49:11 And I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be exalted.
Isa 49:12 Behold, these shall come from far: and, lo, these from the north [Protestant and Catholic Europe] and from the west [the New World]; and these from the land of Sinim [Chine and the far East].
Isa 49:13 Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the LORD hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted.
Isa 49:14 But Zion said, The LORD hath forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten me.
Isa 49:15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.
Isa 49:16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me.
Isa 49:17 Thy children shall make haste; thy destroyers and they that made thee waste shall go forth of thee.
Isa 49:18 Lift up thine eyes round about, and behold: all these gather themselves together, and come to thee. As I live, saith the LORD, thou shalt surely clothe thee with them all, as with an ornament, and bind them on thee, as a bride doeth.
Isa 49:19 For thy waste and thy desolate places, and the land of thy destruction, shall even now be too narrow by reason of the inhabitants, and they that swallowed thee up shall be far away.
Isa 49:20 The children which thou shalt have, after thou hast lost the other, shall say again in thine ears, The place is too strait for me: give place to me that I may dwell.
Isa 49:21 Then shalt thou say in thine heart, Who hath begotten me these, seeing I have lost my children, and am desolate, a captive, and removing to and fro? and who hath brought up these? Behold, I was left alone; these, where had they been?
Isa 49:22 Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.
Isa 49:23 And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; [at the final deliverance of the remnant] and thou shalt know that I am the LORD: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me.
Isa 49:24 Shall the prey be taken from the mighty, or the lawful captive delivered? [from Babylon.]
Isa 49:25 But thus saith the LORD, Even the captives of the mighty shall be taken away, and the prey of the terrible shall be delivered: for I will contend with him that contendeth with thee, and I will save thy children.
Isa 49:26 And I will feed them that oppress thee [Babyon] with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

So, GLL, yes we have Ezekiel 9 and the rod and the Korah experience but direct judgments like in the case of Korah are exceptional (and not effective at the time - the Isealites blamed Moses the next day for killing the "people of the Lord!"). The Lord speaks of Assyria as the rod of His anger and the same divine depiction applies to ancient Babylon and spiritual Babylon at the end. These enemies of Israel have been and will be the main sources of purification of the church.

But the main concern with a pre-close of probation purification of the church is the false sense of security it gives to those who think they're a part of it. Let's take the warning of Daniel 12 to heart that even some of those who are wise will fall, which means even during the latter rain, some who have been empowered with divine wisdom and grace will falter and fall to purify those who remain from placing any trust in man.

Isaiah chapter 49 is a wonderful chapter indeed. The whole book of Isaiah is one BIG goldmine of Truth and prophecy for sure.

Mark- "These enemies of Israel have been and will be the main sources of purification of the church."

But about your conclusions, I see that we differ.

Notice that the earth "helped" the Woman. The swallowing of the unconverted does this helping. It frees her (church)up to declare the Loud Cry with God's "full power".

If we deny that the church must be clean prior to the Loud Cry, what do we make of these declarations?

"ONLY those who have withstood temptation in the strength of the Mighty One, will be PERMITTED to act a part in proclaiming it (The 3rd Angel's Message) when it shall have swelled INTO THE LOUD CRY." (Review and Herald , Nov. 19, 1908)

"Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean. (Isaiah 52:1)

"The great issue so near at hand will weed out those whom God has not appointed, and He will have a pure, true, sanctified ministry PREPARED for the latter rain." (Manuscript Releases, vol. 12, p.327)

Notice this weeding out is PRIOR (prepared)to the Loud Cry (latter rain). One cannot be prepared unless he is ready before hand for something.

"God's displeasure is upon His people, and He will not manifest His power in the midst of them while sins exist among them and are fostered by those in responsible positions."(Testimonies, vol. 3, p.270)

This above quote is very illuminating. Let us turn to Early Writings, under the "Loud Cry" section, p.278.

it reads, "A compelling power moved the honest, while the manifestation of the power of God brought fear and restraint upon the unbelieving relatives and friends so that they dared not, neither had they the power to, hinder those who felt the work of the Spirit of God upon them."

Here we see that during the Loud Cry, God's power will be "manifest". This tells us what? That the people giving the Loud Cry will be true and pure (no sinners in the midst. In other words a "pure and clean " church.

SOP tells us of this CHURCH power-- "Clad in the arms of Christ's righteousness, the CHURCH is to enter upon her final conflict, “Fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners” (Song of Solomon 6:10), she is to go forth into all the world, conquering and to conquer."(Prophets and Kings, p.725)

We see a powerhouse for God, not some dis-jointed, here and there workers but a CHURCH. A PURE CHURCH with the power of God behind it!

Now, after really letting the above inspired words and thoughts soak in, tell me how it is not God but rather the enemies that "purify" the church? tell me how this works?

And explain to me how the earth symbolizes something such as "people" (such as our enemies) that will "help" the Woman (church) instead of a divine act of God?

The Lord has declared He will make His move dear brother in His word. Be very careful in supplanting His declared plans, i.e "people will cause the cleansing" and not HIM (Ezek.9 and Rev. 12 and much more Scripture).

Going back to the original question of this thread -- who is the woman in the latter part of Revelation 12 and her remnant?

This prophecy is addressing the Christian church and how the remnant emerge.

The woman during the 1260 years is "in the wilderness".
This part of the prophecy clearly deals with the time period between 538-1798.
It tells us that church which claims direct authority and linage from the apostles to "sit on the chair of peter" is not the true church.
It is very significant that this matter is presented for we will soon be facing a time when this European based church that dominated those 1260 years will claim it is the true and only apostolic church with divine authority to tell people how to worship.

The Bible is clear in Rev. 12 that the main powerful and visible church of the 1260 years was NOT His true church. His church was in the wilderness, prophesying in sackcloth during those years.

After the 1260 years the "woman" was released from her "wilderness" refuge. Protestantism flourished and freedom of religion was granted.
This is represented by the "EARTH" which we understand to be America, "swallowing" the armies of persecution.

During this time truth became available to all. Righteousness in Christ, the Sabbath, Christ and the Sanctuary truths, all were rediscovered.
But something happens to the woman -- for it is only a remnant of her seed that are true to God's commandments with the faith of Jesus and the HIS testimony in the end.

We only need to look to Rev. 17 to see what happened to the woman-- she has joined the BEAST!

Yes, after the 1260 years God raised up the Adventist church to give the call to become one of God's commandment keeping people with the faith of Jesus.
But the message of Rev. 12 is for the world! For all Christians. Don't join the beast or the spiritualistic dragon!!!
The call is CLEAR --

Come out of Babylon -- which is in direct opposition to the popular and ever growing ecumenical movement and appeal to JOIN TOGETHER and form unity with the beast.
The movement to BUILD BABYLON is growing stronger every day.

Where do Adventists stand here?
Many will heed the ecumenical call and think the
"Come out of Babylon" is too severe and "old fashioned".
Why not join Babylon and "convert" the world?
Yes, Jerusalem in Palestine will be a central part of Babylon's kingdom. Don't go there to find God's kingdom.

There will be a shaking -- which will severely hit the Adventist church as many will join the popular side.
Two parties will arise in Christendom --
Those who seek unity of religions under a spiritualistic worship lead by the papacy and enforced by former protestants using civil power.

And -- there will be a remnant of the woman's seed" -- those who with perseverance cling to Christ, keeping God's commandments and have the faith of Jesus and His testimony.

Like their forefathers (the church in the wilderness for 1260 years) they too will end up facing persecution and fleeing into the wilderness for refusing to join Babylon.

So are you of the mindset that the temple needs to be rebuilt?

Why would they literally have to be in Jerusalem when they are seen in heaven while on earth? The 144,000 go wherever the lamb goes who is in heaven so why would it not be seen in Spiritual perspective?

In Revelation 14 the 144,000 thousand are redeemed and are seen in the heavenly Mt Zion, THEN the Loud Cry is given to the earth to call God's people out of Babylon.

“These are they which follow the Lamb withersoever He goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb.” Revelation 14:4. The vision of the prophet pictures them as standing on Mount Zion, girt for holy service, clothed in white linen, which is the righteousness of the saints. But all who follow the Lamb in heaven must first have followed Him on earth, not fretfully or capriciously, but in trustful, loving, willing obedience, as the flock follows the shepherd.{AA 591.1}

The lesson is for all time. We are to follow the Lamb of God whithersoever He goeth. His guidance is to be chosen, His companionship valued above the companionship of earthly friends. Christ says, “He that loveth father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me, and he that loveth son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.” Matthew 10:37.{COL 223.2}

"I also saw that Old Jerusalem never would be built up; and that Satan was doing his utmost to lead the minds of the children of the Lord into these things now, in the gathering time, to keep them from throwing their whole interest into the present work of the Lord, and to cause them to neglect the necessary preparation for the day of the Lord." {EW 75.2}

Old Jerusalem with it's sacrificial system and temple will never be rebuilt. But I am not saying that important events will not take place there.

I believe that the Tablets of stone with the Ten Commandments will be brought from their hiding place under Jerusalem and shown to the world after the Sunday law is ordered.

"Among the righteous still in Jerusalem (at the time of Nebuchadnezzar's siege in 587 BC), to whom had been made plain the divine purpose, were some who determined to place beyond the reach of ruthless hands the sacred ark containing the tables of stone on which had been traced the precepts of the Decalogue. This they did. With mourning and sadness they secreted the ark in a cave, where it was to be hidden from the people of Israel and Judah because of their sins, and was to be no more restored to them. That sacred ark is yet hidden. It has never been disturbed since it was secreted." Prophets and Kings, p. 453 (Until the Seventh Day Adventist Ron Wyatt was sent to discover it again)

"The precious record of the law was placed in the ark of the testament and is still there, safely hidden from the human family. But in God's appointed time He will bring forth these tables of stone to be a testimony to all the world against the disregard of His commandments and against the idolatrous worship of a counterfeit Sabbath." Manuscript 122, 1901. (Quoted in The SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 1, p.1109)

I can see maybe one or more of the 144,000 being a part of that event but why would all of them need to be there?

The 144,000 are for a witness to the world like 12,000 set of Apostles proclaiming the loud cry for the very last days.

Do the 144,000 all get the impression to come to Jerusalem at the same time? That makes no sense. Or are you saying that the 144,000 are Jews already living there?

This quote says that the 'great issue so near at hand', referring to the Sabbath-Sunday issue, the Law of God vs. man made rules and traditions, is what purifies the church, preparing it for the latter rain. I take it (tell me if I'm misreading it) to mean that the initial persecution will weed out nominal leaders and laymen alike. Lord help us to remain faithful in the small things so we'll be prepared for the large.

The earth helping the woman in the past is the refuge that the persecuted woman found in the remote places of the earth beyond the reach of the beast and today is still the same - our own country living refuge which we should be transitioning to for our families while we still have the opportunity.

As shown by Ezek. 9, Rev. 12, there is an upcoming act of God (directly) that will "weed out" the imposters.

Let's look at a two more reliable references from the word of God: (we have much more but no need to do overkill lest we find we are looking for pegs and doubts to hang our faith upon)

"Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts."

"But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:"

"And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness."

"Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years."

"And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts." (Mal. 3:1-5)

Now if anyone says this does not show a church purification then they are in need of "eye salve" (Rev. 3:18)

"For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire."

"For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many."

"They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD."

"For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory."

"And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles."

"And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD."
(Isaiah 66:15-20)

Again the Lord is shown to "plead" first (His Elijah prophet comes before the great and terrible day) yet he will then Destroy, and unfortunately it will be "many". Those who "escape" can only be those who are sealed (I will set a sign upon them).

So again, let us focus on what is next--church purification. it will then be seen that "Israel" will be pure and true (Test. vol. 5, p.80)

Let us remember that Satan hood winked the Jews (the religious leaders) in Jesus' first coming. They mis-read the Scriptures and taught he would come as the conquering King. He came in a way totally unexpected.

The same trick is used now. Almost all of us SDA are looking for Him to come in the clouds, yet, as we just saw he comes as an avenger for His elect. THEN after the Loud Cry and the work is done His long sought appearing in the clouds.

"And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him." (Mal. 3:17)

"Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem."

"The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God." (Isaiah 52:9-10)

That "bare holy Arm" shall indeed be powerful! No more shall God's true people be mocked, scorned or despised.

"And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name."

"Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the LORD, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God." (Isaiah 62:2-3)

Selah

Why don't you just say what you mean instead of weaving a bunch of texts together to hold the whole thing in confusion?

What Houteff taught, is that BEFORE the Sunday law, probation closes for Adventists, almost all Adventists will be killed, the few that escape (144,000 mainly composed of believers in Houteff as the "Elijah" messenger and who are somehow "the sons of Jacob"), they will then receive the latter rain and begin their journey to Palestine. It's only after this that "image of the beast" takes place.
The time of Jacob’s trouble (Jer. 30:7) for the 144,000, the sons of Jacob, supposedly now develops on their way home (Gen. 32:1, 24) to the land of their fathers. God changes their name--they will no longer be called Adventists, but receive a "new name".

God will give them, by some miracle, Jerusalem, where they will set up a literal temporal kingdom and have an antitypical "David" sitting on the throne and experience perfect safety and peace, from there they will evangelize the world, (loud cry) and Gentiles will come to them to learn about God, then probation closes, the plagues fall and then Christ will come.

The SR interpretation is built by taking the texts in the Old Testament promised to Israel who were to be the center of God's truth to the world, IF THEY remained faithful to the covenant, and then ignoring the New Testament realignment of those promises and thus, like the dispensationalists, coming up with a future kingdom in "old" Jerusalem.


In EGW's writings the "purification" of the church by the "shaking" is consistently presented as coming about due to persecution, when most will "renounce" their faith and join the popular movement. Only the ones fully anchored in Christ and His Word will stand.

There is no hint that everyone is to go to Jerusalem and live in peace and safety there.

And remember -- the three angel's message is to go forth NOW -- the message the church fails to give now will have to be given under very trying and discouraging conditions.

Let us continue with a most beautiful compiling of end time events:

"And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set His hand again the second time to recover the remnant of His people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea....like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt." Isa. 11:11, 16.

"And I will give her her vineyards from thence, and the valley of Achor for a door of hope: and she shall sing there, as in the days of her youth, and as in the day when she came up out of the land of Egypt." Hos. 2:15.

"...instead of giving all for Christ, many have taken the golden wedge and a goodly Babylonish garment, and hid them in the camp. If the presence of one Achan was sufficient to weaken the whole camp of Israel, can we be surprised at the little success which attends our efforts when every church and almost every family has its Achan?" -- Testimonies, Vol. 5, pg. 157.

Hence the reason for the imminent purification of the church, the destruction of the Achans of today, in preparation for the antitypical crossing of the Jordan.

It is now to be considered how this work of ("shaking"), separating, will begin, and also how the church is to hear of it. Years ago, the Spirit of God opened up the truth in vision:

"I asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen," declared the recipient of the vision, "and was shown that it would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the Truth Witness to the Laodiceans. This will have its effect upon the heart of the receiver, and will lead him to exalt the standard and pour forth the straight truth.

Some will not bear this straight testimony. They will rise up against it, and this is what will cause a shaking among God's people." -- Early Writings, pg. 270.

In this vision, we are introduced to a mighty message that is to be carried to the Laodiceans, and that is to commence the shaking among God's people. Then in subsequent vision and testimony, we are given to see the glorious sequel to this shaking.

"...Mighty miracles were wrought, the sick were healed, and signs and wonders followed the believers. God was in the work, and every saint, fearless of consequences, followed the convictions of his own conscience, and united with those who were keeping all the commandments of God; and with power they sounded abroad the third message." -- Id, pg. 278.

"Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; He will come and save you. Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped. Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert." Isa. 35:4-6.

"...It is impossible to give any idea of the experience of the people of God who shall be alive upon the earth when celestial glory and a repetition of the persecutions of the past are blended. They will walk in the light proceeding from the throne of God. By means of the angels there will be constant communication between heaven and earth.

And Satan, surrounded by evil angels, and claiming to be God, will work miracles of all kinds, to deceive, if possible, the very elect. God's people will not find their safety in working miracles; for Satan will counterfeit the miracles that will be wrought. God's tried and tested people will find their power in the sign spoken of in Ex. 31:12-18...." -- Testimonies, Vol. 9, pg. 16.

Envisioning this great day of God's power, the "gospel prophet," too, focuses our eyes upon those who, heeding "the straight testimony," survive the ordeal of the shaking, and behold face to face those wondrous scenes of future glory:

"Look upon Zion, the city of our solemnities: thine eyes shall see Jerusalem a quiet habitation, a tabernacle that shall not be taken down; not one of the stakes thereof shall ever be removed, neither shall any of the cords thereof be broken. But there the glorious Lord will be unto us a place of broad rivers and streams; wherein shall go no galley with oars, neither shall gallant ship pass thereby....And the inhabitant shall not say, I am sick: the people that dwell therein shall be forgiven their iniquity." Isa. 33:20, 21, 24.

Then to this already glorious picture, Inspiration adds still another enlightening and heartening facet:

"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.... But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation." Joel 2:32; Joel 3:20.

"But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions.... And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the Lord's." Obad. 1:17, 21.

These two prophecies of deliverance and of subsequent events, vividly reveal the wonder-working power which is to invest those who endure the swiftly approaching "great and dreadful day of the Lord."

And now as the day "hastens on apace" (Testimonies, Vol. 5, pg. 80), to engulf in ruin the Laodiceans who turn a deaf ear to the message which causes the shaking, virtually none but the sick, the afflicted,the outcasts, and those from the streets and the lanes, will be humble and lowly enough to respond to the warnings, to experience the transforming power of divine grace upon their hearts, the progressively sanctifying impartation of righteousness by faith, and to be among the gathered ones, as Inspiration thus further discloses:

"And He shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." Isa. 11:12. (Timely Greetings, vol. 2, no.46, p.37- 42)

Even so our King, let it come!

Blessings in your search for truth GLL. Our friend Houteff may be right on some things but overall his message is a distraction from the three angel's messages by elevating non-essentials to essential status in my view. Let's not let these things divide us. One of the strongest testimonies we can give the world is to respect one another's opinions especially where we strongly differ. Let's focus on the essentials of the message for this time, the law and the righteousness of Christ, not on non-essentials.

Brother, what are these distractions? If possible be specific, thanks.

Further, what areas does he "elevate" that is "non-essential"? Again if you can be specific it will help me to see if there is a mis-understanding. As a lover of the truth if I can see something I've missed am happy to be corrected.

Truth is never a distraction. Infact if we don't love it and embrace it in whatever way it comes, we shall be found wanting.See (2 Thes. 2:10)