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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: APL]
#166493
07/02/14 02:12 AM
07/02/14 02:12 AM
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SDA
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M: Did Jesus give evil angels permission to murder innocent women and children?
A: Have you read the book of Job?
M: What do you believe?
A: If you have read the book of Job, you would know the answer to your question. Were innocent women and children murdered when Jesus gave evil angels permission to afflict Job? I cannot discern from the Bible what you believe. I need you to tell me what you think the Bible says about it.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Daryl]
#166494
07/02/14 02:26 AM
07/02/14 02:26 AM
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I believe what the Book of Job says. But in the spirit of Green, define innocent.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#166495
07/02/14 03:02 AM
07/02/14 03:02 AM
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MM - Did God send the fiery serpents? Simple question - YES, or NO???? Yes. Now your turn. Did God send the Flood and Fire? Ellen White wrote: The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. {12MR 208.3} God uses the same mechanism as with the FIERY serpents.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Daryl]
#166496
07/02/14 03:43 AM
07/02/14 03:43 AM
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For MM: HEREand HEREThat is, if you have time.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#166497
07/02/14 04:16 AM
07/02/14 04:16 AM
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MM - Did God send the fiery serpents? Simple question - YES, or NO???? Yes. Now you have a problem. EGW does not agree with you.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Daryl]
#166498
07/02/14 01:28 PM
07/02/14 01:28 PM
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Daryl, I would like to make a summary post for this thread if I get a chance, but I am booked solid for the next several days and don't have time to prepare it. If this thread reaches the limit before I get to it, I may edit this post to include the summary.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#166500
07/02/14 03:34 PM
07/02/14 03:34 PM
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Daryl, I would like to make a summary post for this thread if I get a chance, but I am booked solid for the next several days and don't have time to prepare it. If this thread reaches the limit before I get to it, I may edit this post to include the summary.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa. There is no question that sinners receive punishment for sin. THE question is how is God involved. Green has been abundantly clear that the punishment of God is by direct action. He has been abundantly clear that God is "a" destroyer. But God is not the problem, SIN is the problem. Christ came to save men from their sins, not save them from what God was going to do to them. What can we not accept the testimony of Jesus about His Father? {From ST, January 20, 1890}Satan sought to intercept every ray of light from the throne of God. He sought to cast his shadow across the earth, that men might lose the true views of God's character, and that the knowledge of God might become extinct in the earth. He had caused truth of vital importance to be so mingled with error that it had lost its significance. The law of Jehovah was burdened with needless exactions and traditions, and God was represented as severe, exacting, revengeful, and arbitrary. He was pictured as one who could take pleasure in the sufferings of his creatures. The very attributes that belonged to the character of Satan, the evil one represented as belonging to the character of God. Jesus came to teach men of the Father, to correctly represent him before the fallen children of earth. Angels could not fully portray the character of God, but Christ, who was a living impersonation of God, could not fail to accomplish the work. The only way in which he could set and keep men right was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes. That men might have salvation he came directly to man, and became a partaker of his nature.
The Father was revealed in Christ as altogether a different being from that which Satan had represented him to be....
That God could consent to become flesh, and dwell among fallen beings, to lift them up from their helplessness and despair, is an unfathomed mystery. He whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, whose dominion endureth throughout all generations, made himself to be sin for us that he might lift up all that are bowed down, and give life to those who are ready to perish. .
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! ... Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. In Christ was arrayed before men the paternal grace and the matchless perfections of the Father. In his prayer just before his crucifixion, he declared, "I have manifested thy name." "I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do." When the object of his mission was attained,--the revelation of God to the world,--the Son of God announced that his work was accomplished, and that the character of the Father was made manifest to men. And what character is that? One that will punish, torture and kill those that do not love Him? This is giving the Father the character of Satan. The Father as revealed in Christ is altogether different from what Satan has represented Him to be, arbitrary, vengeful, unforgiving, exacting and severe. I ask, who on this thread has represented God as exacting? Who has represented God a severe? Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son!
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Daryl]
#166501
07/02/14 03:37 PM
07/02/14 03:37 PM
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Green, while it would be entertaining, one would not expect your so suggested summary to reflect much reality. But one would expect it to reflect your opinion.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#166502
07/02/14 03:38 PM
07/02/14 03:38 PM
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Did you provide an example of your selectivity or did you provide an example of inadequate research? "Fear Him, which after He hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear Him." Can Satan kill himself and then cast himself into hell?
Jesus enjoins his disciples to make known to others those truths which he had spoken to their ears alone, saying, "What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light; and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the house-tops." Knowing the rebuffs and persecution they are to meet in the ministry upon which they are now about to enter, he strengthens them for their work by assuring them that in all their coming toils and dangers, God will watch over them. They are to go on unmindful of the opposition of men, seeking only to please God in whose hands they are: "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." {2SP 257.1}
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Christ has purchased the entire being, mind, soul, and body. The price of man's redemption has been paid, and all he has and is should be sprinkled with the blood of Christ, dedicated to God; for it belongs to Him. Our motto should be, "I am not my own; for I have been bought with a price." {ST, August 1, 1900 par. 5}
Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops. And I say unto you My friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear Him, which after He hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear Him. Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God? But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows. Luke 12:3-7. {EW 28.1}
And the plagues of God are already falling upon the earth, sweeping away costly structures as if by a breath of fire from heaven. Will not these judgments bring professing Christians to their senses? God permits them to come that the world may take heed, that sinners may be afraid and tremble before Him. {11MR 355.1} Is there any reason to doubt Ellen White capitalized "Him" and "He" in the passages posted above? MM, I didn't ask you if what you thought whether something seems feasible to you. I was addressing whether Ellen White capitalized or DID NOT capitalize the word "Him" in the verse and asking you about your selectivity or inadequacy. And Green evaded the whole issue. And then suggested that any time Ellen White's statements don't agree with his opinion, then they have been tampered with. If you follow his line of thoughts, you will place yourself on shaky ground. 'Is there any reason to doubt Ellen White DID NOT capitalized "Him" and "He" in the passages I posted above?'
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#166503
07/02/14 03:44 PM
07/02/14 03:44 PM
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As for me and my house we will serve the Lord. I take God at His word. I believe His prophets - including Ellen White.
Do you? Or do you selectively take God at His word? Who killed Saul? What does the Bible say?
The act of punishment is indeed a strange act. But I trust He is holy, just, and good.
Do you trust He is holy, just, and good, or whatever He does you call it holy, just, and good? Do you understand the difference? If someone believed satan was God returning to the earth, and they saw him killing those who disagreed with him, but they believe he is God, then they just call the acts they are seeing holy, just, and good. Is that what you are doing, based upon what you think you are seeing? Or have you considered that maybe you are seeing things incorrectly? Who killed Saul? {From ST, January 20, 1890}
Satan sought to intercept every ray of light from the throne of God. He sought to cast his shadow across the earth, that men might lose the true views of God's character, and that the knowledge of God might become extinct in the earth. He had caused truth of vital importance to be so mingled with error that it had lost its significance.
MM, in what ways has satan caused APL, myself, and others to lose the true views of God's character? What is it that is becoming extinct in the earth? What is the error that mingling with the truth? In what way are we representing God as severe, exacting, revengeful, and arbitrary. In what way are we placing attributes that belong to the character of Satan as belonging to the character of God? In what way are we saying the Father is an altogether different being as revealed in Christ?
Last edited by kland; 07/02/14 03:56 PM.
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