Again, the idea that the process of conversion ends with people ignorantly practicing certain sinful habits is unbiblical. People who complete the process of conversion in God's appointed way are "perfect and entire, wanting nothing". They "stand perfect and complete in all the will of God". Not one fruit, not one righteous attribute is missing. Old things have passed away, all things have become new. They spend the rest of their mortal life growing in grace, maturing in the fruits of the Spirit. And they will spend their eternal, immortal life doing the same thing.

All true obedience comes from the heart. It was heart work with Christ. And if we consent, He will so identify Himself with our thoughts and aims, so blend our hearts and minds into conformity to His will, that when obeying Him we shall be but carrying out our own impulses. The will, refined and sanctified, will find its highest delight in doing His service. When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. Through an appreciation of the character of Christ, through communion with God, sin will become hateful to us. {DA 668.3}

MM - are YOU converted?

* * * MOD HAT ON * * *

This is over the line. The tone of this post, assessed by the all-caps and terseness, indicates a lack of courtesy.

Consider these forum rules.

Quote:

2 - No one will attack another individual. Others will not be directly attacked on the basis of their knowledge, beliefs, or doctrinal understanding. They will not be referred to as a heretic, etc. unless you can clearly back it up from their own public writings from their own book or web site.

3 - A person's standing before God, and their salvation will not be questioned.

4 - People will be allowed to express disagreements without fear of being attacked or of being judged. One may state that a position, or fact, is wrong. This addresses the issue, and not the person. But, there is an expectation that one who does this will then propose a correct fact or position. People have a choice as to whether they concentrate on the negative, or on the positive. People can choose to be positive. In addition, none of us really have all truth on a subject. If we seek to understand another view, we can understand why others might find it to be incorrect. It really does not hurt truth to acknowledge where we don't have it all sewed up, and the other person has an understandable point, even if wrong.

Please keep the discussion on the topic, without getting personal. If the tone was not meant to appear challenging, critical, sarcastic, or cynical (as it appears to me and likely to others), then I suggest adjusting your wording to make your query more clear. There are ways to ask about personal views without "getting personal." It is possible that you did not mean to come across as you did. Please strive to communicate in a positive and unambiguous manner. Thank you.

* * * MOD HAT OFF * * *

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

This is a valid question. MM says that converted people are "perfect and entire, wanting nothing". He says not one righteous attribute is missing, all things have become new. If MM is converted, then we have a human model of the process.

But consider that Peter was converted, see EGW writing about the trial of Christ, "He bitterly wept and repented of his great sin, and was converted, and then was prepared to strengthen his brethren." {1SG 49.2} Yet later, Paul needed to rebuke Peter publically. Was he unconverted at that time?

One of the strongest evidences of true conversion is love to God and man. And a converted person would not be offended by such a question.

By your definition how could you sin after you were converted? As you just stated above, you think that even after you have been converted that each one of your sins "severs your relationship" with Christ. If every sin disconnects us from Christ then how do we repent? Repentance comes from God also. We respond to grace, the natural (old) man does not seek for it of ourselves. Grace is always there calling us to repent.

"Apart from Him you have no life. You have no power to resist temptation or to grow in grace and holiness. Abiding in Him, you may flourish. Drawing your life from Him, you will not wither nor be fruitless. You will be like a tree planted by the rivers of water. {SC 68.3}

But if each time we sin we are cut off then how would we come back if we have no life without Him or any power to resist temptation?

What about the hundreds of texts that say "I shall not fail thee nor forsake thee"? If any man sin we have an advocate! The only time He ever leaves us is if we completely forsake Him with no hope of coming back. (read; Steps to Christ)

Wouldn't sin and going back to the old man be adhering to the taint of sin of your past, which by definition is your past habits? How could you have experienced conversion in God's appointed way if by your definition it does not include having sinful tendencies and habits to overcome? By your definition there is no need for grace after conversion because we are without any taint of sin in us, even the ignorant kind. But heaven forbid that by your definition of conversion a man should sin, then it severs our relationship with Christ! So by your definition of Conversion you crucify afresh the Son of God every time you sin!

Do you have two minds? One is saved and the other lost? The old man lets go of salvation the moment you sin?

After conversion...

"The closer you come to Jesus, the more faulty you will appear in your own eyes; for your vision will be clearer, and your imperfections will be seen in broad and distinct contrast to His perfect nature. This is evidence that Satan’s delusions have lost their power; that the vivifying influence of the Spirit of God is arousing you." {SC 64.2}

So there is growth in knowledge of our own sinful characters after conversion.

We stand faultless before the Father because of Christ not because of our merits having been completely changed yet.

Your own words condemn yourself. You do not know what salvation is and you just proved it. You make up your own definitions of the biblical terminology to suit your own concept of what salvation is but it has become painfully obvious that you do not know.

I wish that you had more of this character Mt Man...

There are those who have known the pardoning love of Christ and who really desire to be children of God, yet they realize that their character is imperfect, their life faulty, and they are ready to doubt whether their hearts have been renewed by the Holy Spirit. To such I would say, Do not draw back in despair. We shall often have to bow down and weep at the feet of Jesus because of our shortcomings and mistakes, but we are not to be discouraged. Even if we are overcome by the enemy, we are not cast off, not forsaken and rejected of God. No; Christ is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Said the beloved John, “These things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.” 1 John 2:1. And do not forget the words of Christ, “The Father Himself loveth you.” John 16:27. He desires to restore you to Himself, to see His own purity and holiness reflected in you. And if you will but yield yourself to Him, He that hath begun a good work in you will carry it forward to the day of Jesus Christ. Pray more fervently; believe more fully. As we come to distrust our own power, let us trust the power of our Redeemer, and we shall praise Him who is the health of our countenance.{SC 64.1}

Amen

I've already done it a number of times. We have the example of Peter, the example of James and John, and others. I know what happened to me. I know that some sins escaped my notice at the time of my conversion and that I became aware of them later on. Now, it is impossible for you to be able to hold the position you do without setting yourself up as a judge of others.

Actually, it was Jesus, through authors of the Bible, who said:

"Ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing." "Ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God." "Changed into the same image from glory to glory." "He is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not." "He no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God." "Perfecting holiness in the fear of God." "Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh." "If these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful." "If ye do these things, ye shall never fall."

The life of the vine will be manifest in fragrant fruit on the branches. "He that abideth in Me," said Jesus, "and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing." When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing. {DA 676.4}

We need to understand that imperfection of character is sin. All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. {COL 330.2}


Completing the process of conversion in God's appointed way does not render believers incapable of sinning. They are, for the first time, free to sin (prior to experiencing rebirth, people are sin slaves, they cannot not sin - "All that man can do without Christ is polluted with selfishness and sin.") Peter was converted and free to sin, and in the case of the dissembling Jews he chose to sin. Post-conversion sinning does not prove people unconverted. Nor does it prove the process of conversion ends before people learn how to live in harmony with all things whatsoever Jesus commanded.


Perhaps it would leave them feeling sad? Too often discussions regarding conversion cause people to ask - Are you sinless? How long has it been since you last sinned? In some cases, these types of questions are asked in an effort to prove the absurdity of taking the biblical description of conversion literally. The promises, descriptions posted above are too plain to misunderstand. Nevertheless, most people interpret them to mean something very different than what they obviously mean. They point to people who fall and fail as evidence we cannot take what Jesus says about conversion at face value.

The Holy Spirit offers sinners the gift of repentance. When embraced, it empowers them to confess and repent of their sins.


People who complete the process of conversion in God's appointed way do not inherit holy flesh. They are converted with all their defects, weaknesses, and imperfections in tact. The difference is - they do not, cannot, while abiding in Jesus, cherish them or act them out in thought, word, or deed.


She is not describing sinning in these types of passages. Having defects, weaknesses, and imperfections is not the same thing as cherishing them or acting them out it thoughts, words, or deeds.


We are saved unto good works - not because of them. Our standing in judgment will be based on what Jesus has done for us and what Jesus has done in and through us. "Ye are saved by faith." "By thy words thou shalt be justified." "Judged every man according to their works."

Impossible? How so? I feel no need to judge or condemn others - even if they are guilty of open sin, let alone secret sin.

What do the following insights mean? When do they apply?

What are these quotes saying?
They are saying that conversion is a total "about face" not a "completed work".

Conversion is falling at the foot of the cross in repentance of sin and great desire to be rid of sin, and a longing to glorify God in our lives.


Conversion, in the above quotes, is said to be "submissive to the Spirit of the Lord." {19MR 290.4}

And what does the Spirit of the Lord do?
According to Romans 8:13-14 The Holy Spirit leads us to put to death the unrighteous deeds of the flesh.
It doesn't say they are all put to death in a moment.

At conversion we commit ourselves to being submissive to the Spirit of the Lord.

The next quote says:
" The sinner must enter into the renovating process"

Notice it says "process" not an immediate and completed renovation all at once.

"True conversion means a radical change of heart"
This is the key.
Conversion means a complete change of attitude -- an about face -- where once we wanted to sin, now we want to serve God.


"he may have the mind of Christ, placing himself under the moulding influence of the Holy Spirit."

Notice again it is "moulding influence" not an instantaneous work.

2 Cor. 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory (character) of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory (character) to glory (character), even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Again this verse depicts a process, we need to behold the character of Christ, and as we behold HIM the Holy Spirit leads us step by step into increasing likeness to His character.

It is through JUSTIFICATION that we are immediately made complete and whole -- as if we had never sinned. A gift from Christ imputing His righteousness to our account.

SANCTIFICATION is the work of a life time, as God imparts to us the characteristics of godliness through His power and our submissive obedience to His will.


"The work of transformation from unholiness to holiness is a continuous one. Day by day God labors for man's sanctification, and man is to co-operate with Him, putting forth persevering efforts in the cultivation of right habits. He is to add grace to grace; and as he thus works on the plan of addition, God works for him on the plan of multiplication. {AA 532.2}

"Sanctification is not the work of a moment, an hour, a day, but of a lifetime. It is not gained by a happy flight of feeling, but is the result of constantly dying to sin, and constantly living for Christ. Wrongs cannot be righted nor reformations wrought in the character by feeble, intermittent efforts. It is only by long, persevering effort, sore discipline, and stern conflict, that we shall overcome. AA 561

"Sanctification is a progressive work. The successive steps are set before us in the words of Peter: "Giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ" 2 Peter 1:5-8.

"Set your mark high, and step by step, even though it be by painful effort, by self-denial and sacrifice, ascend the whole length of the ladder of progress. COL 331


"God leads His people on, step by step. He brings them up to different points calculated to manifest what is in the heart. Some endure at one point, but fall off at the next. At every advanced point the heart is tested and tried a little closer. 23 {CCh 55.1}