It is a straight forward question - how are we to love the soldiers of ISIS?

By praying that they will repent of their sins and turn to the Son of God for salvation.

Is praying all one does? What if you lived in Iraq and ISIS soldiers were coming to your town. You have access to a large cache of weapons. What should the Christian do?

APL,

Seeing you brought it up, what would you do???

Love the sinner; hate the sin.

Christians were faced with identical questions during WWI and WWII.

ISIS murderers would not last long on American soil. If they made it as far as my house . . . I hope I would trust Jesus to do the right thing.

First of all I won't have "a large cache of weapons" I won't even have a small one. So that won't even enter the equation.

I think we are told to head for the hills when that kind of thing comes against God's people. And yes, PRAY!

They posted a little news clip of an elderly woman who found herself with an uninvited passenger with a gun in her car. She calmly turned to him and said -- you don't frighten me, if you shoot me I'll go be with Jesus, (a little wrong theology but the concept of eternity with Christ is correct) I'm ready to go, but what about you? You shoot me and you'll probably end up in hell. (end up in the lake of fire)

In her case it saved her life -- the guy with the gun got out of her car and left her unscathed.
It may not always work that way -- but the concept is still true, a true Christian who dies will live again, no ISIS can take that away from them.

But what about the soldiers? What future do they have?

As to "what would I do" --
I don't know, all I can do is pray that if ever faced with a situation like that I will remain true to my Savior and fully trust in Him.

Ps. 91:1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
91:2 I will say of the LORD, [He is] my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
91:3 Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, [and] from the noisome pestilence.
91:4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust:

That was not the scenario - you may not have them, but they may be available to you. It is EVER right for a Christian to kill an ISIS soldier?

Which might be what? Tell you to shoot to kill? What would you do?

Well, if God's going to burn 'em anyway, why not help God out? If by knowing God, we start acting like God, shouldn't we express the fruits of God? Wouldn't that actually be showing them "love"?
It could also save some "innocent" people.
It could serve as an example to other wanna-be ISIS people.

Why was it right for David to kill Goliath, APL? (There is no question that it was right, for the Spirit of the Lord moved him to do so. See quote below.)



"The battle is the Lord's." That's a truth we can depend on. But that doesn't mean we sit back idly doing nothing expecting God to do it all. When God asks us to do something, we do it, however unpleasant, dangerous, or disagreeable the task may seem.

The fact is, this whole thread is bait for people to waste their time in futile debate with you on a topic of questionable theology that you are very exercised about and have continually sought to bring into our discussions here on this forum. We have already spent, literally, thousands of posts vainly seeking to help you understand that God does indeed punish, just as He says He will. This "how to deal with ISIS soldiers" is but discussion-bait for a thinly concealed reincarnation of the same theological fallacy that you have brought before. In more worldly forums, the OP here would be called "trolling."

As before, you don't answer a straight question directly. You dodge, avoid, twist and turn to keep from answering straightly. These are debate tactics, but are they tactics which Christians should be using? You have asked what you called "a straight-forward question." If you want a straight answer, why are you unwilling to give one?

I'll be happy to see that you are more willing than it has first appeared. Start by answering the question in post #168057.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

The freedoms we have enjoyed here in North America over the last two centuries was bought by people willing to give their lives to fight for this freedom.

Actually, I think there will be military action against the ISIS and they will easily be defeated.

However, defeating the ISIS isn't really going to solve the problems. There are a lot of groups, including Muslim groups that want the ISIS defeated. “Once the fighting is over, the political infighting will begin right away,” predicted Bill Roggio, of the Long War Journal.
Getting rid of the ISIS will simply create a vacuum for another radical Muslim group to seize greater control in the Middle East.

Just like getting rid of Saddam Hussein really didn't help the Middle East that much, Saddam's Islamic government, in spite of his injustices, was considerably more moderate than the groups now striving for supremacy.

The world is rallying to "do something" about ISIS problem, so how should we love those ISIS soldiers?

Pray for them -- that God will give them a new heart and lead them into truth, before it is too late for them.

So to summarize you last post dedication - how we love the ISIS soldier is to pray for them, that's it. The rest of your comment was not on topic. Green, MM and Daryl don't have answers either. Green gives a tangential answer that David killed Goliath, implying what? he does not say. But I take it green is saying that killing an ISIS soldier may be OK. Is that the loving thing to do? Green says of me, "As before, you don't answer a straight question directly.". But then he does not have a straight answer either. But we do have an answer, Christ has given it to us and shown us. Read Matthew 5. Read Luke 6. The answer is there.

APL,

Obviously, God does not do anything that is not loving. God is love. Also, God does not inspire any action that is not loving. Would you agree with these points?

I would assume that you would agree with those points.

Now, let's move on to a weighter question--one requiring a little more advancement in spiritual growth and maturity to answer. We know that God inspired David to kill Goliath. So here's the question: How was it a loving act for David to kill Goliath?

When you can properly answer that question, you will have at the same time solved most of the "mysteries" that you like to bring to this forum, and you will have at the same time touched on a substantial piece that has been heretofore missing from your understanding, leaving a void in your theological pragma that has been filled by erroneous beliefs. It is simply not possible to attain a correct understanding when beginning with incorrect assumptions. Look carefully at your assumptions. Re-evaluate them.

You have assumed, for example, that many times when the Bible says "God" it means "Satan." You have assumed that when the Bible says "kill" it means "murder." You have assumed that when there is "punishment" it is "evil." Are these all correct assumptions?

Do parents do "evil" to punish their children? As I understand it, some parents won't be in Heaven because they did NOT punish their children. Which, then, is more "evil"?

If ISIS soldiers are destroying innocent humans and committing inhumane acts of barbarity, which is more evil: 1) To ignore the plight of the victims? or 2) To make war against these enemies until they should either surrender or be destroyed?

You like straight answers. I will give you mine, will you give us yours? I would answer that it is more evil to ignore the plight of the victims, and let their cries fall upon deaf ears.

God will eventually bring about justice with the same goal in mind: the eradication of evil.

Is it right to pray for one's enemies? Sure. As long as they have a probation still. As long as I harbor ill will toward them. Prayer will be effective; if not for one's enemies, for one's own attitude and perspective toward them. But David did not merely bend his knees before Goliath. In fact, the Bible tells us that David RAN toward the giant. Why? That's another question a spiritually mature Christian should be able to answer.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

You mean like giving laws for divorce? Perhaps the laws of polygamy?

Did the children grow spiritually from the time they left Egypt until the time of Christ? Were they ever supposed to fight? This does take spiritual maturity to understand what God really wanted.

Jeremiah 7:24-27 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward. 25 Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day I have even sent unto you all my servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them: 26 Yet they hearkened not unto me, nor inclined their ear, but hardened their neck: they did worse than their fathers. 27 Therefore thou shalt speak all these words unto them; but they will not hearken to thee: thou shalt also call unto them; but they will not answer thee.

And your Bible references are? Did God inspire Israel to fight their way into Canaan? So terribly blinded had they become by transgression. The Lord had never commanded them to "go up and fight." It was not His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare, but by strict obedience to His commands. {PP 392.3}

OH! Like the situation with Job and his family? Do you accuse God have a great crime here in ignoring the plight of the victims of Satan? Or what happens every day around the world today where murder, rape, theft are all rampant and it falls on deaf ears?

Is this what Jesus taught in the Sermon on the Mount - to wage war against the likes of ISIS? Nope. What did Jesus teach?

Across the sea from the place where they were assembled was the country of Bashan, a lonely region, whose wild gorges and wooded hills had long been a favorite lurking ground for criminals of all descriptions. Reports of robbery and murder committed there were fresh in the minds of the people, and many were zealous in denouncing these evildoers. At the same time they were themselves passionate and contentious; they cherished the most bitter hatred of their Roman oppressors (ISIS soldiers) and felt themselves at liberty to hate and despise all other peoples, and even their own countrymen who did not in all things conform to their ideas. In all this they were violating the law which declares, "Thou shalt not kill." {MB 56.1}

The spirit of hatred and revenge originated with Satan, and it led him to put to death the Son of God. Whoever cherishes malice or unkindness is cherishing the same spirit, and its fruit will be unto death. In the revengeful thought the evil deed lies enfolded, as the plant in the seed. "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." 1 John 3:15. {MB 56.2}

"Whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca [vain fellow], shall be in danger of the council." In the gift of His Son for our redemption, God has shown how high a value He places upon every human soul (even ISIS soldiers), and He gives to no man liberty to speak contemptuously of another. We shall see faults and weaknesses in those about us, but God claims every soul as His property--His by creation, and doubly His as purchased by the precious blood of Christ. All were created in His image (ISIS soldiers), and even the most degraded are to be treated with respect and tenderness (even ISIS soldiers). God will hold us accountable for even a word spoken in contempt of one soul for whom Christ laid down His life. {MB 56.3}

I am praying military intervention will stop ISIS. I fully expect Jesus to answer my prayers.

Really? Has military intervention solved the problems in Iraq so far? In Afghanistan? Is killing the solution to the sin problem? Military force will never solve this problem.

You are taking it too far. I am only praying military intervention will stop ISIS. I am not praying for world peace. Jesus said, Wars and rumors of wars will persist to the end.

I'm taking it too far? What? Has military action improved the Iraq situation since 9/11? Is the world a safer place today than it was then? Is military action what Christ preached in the Sermon on the Mount? Is that the way to treat an enemy?

Don't you think Jesus is causing ISIS? Why would you pray against what is His will? Or are you saying that you believe this a rare case where disease, death, and destruction is not caused by Jesus?

I'm glad you are not Commander in Chief. I dearly appreciate the sacrifice soldiers have made to safeguard freedom from tyrants. Also the sacrifice police make to keep the peace.

Read the sermon on the mount. Do we put our trust in guns or in God? Trusting in military power is what got David into trouble with God.

APL,

Should Christians be promoting a society without soldiers and police? Do you see every soldier or police officer as working in a forbidden position? Should soldiers and police officers not have guns?

Of course we should not put our trust in guns. But guns must sometimes be used. I should not put my trust in cars either. But that doesn't mean I should never own one or use one. Your reasoning here is quite immature, and widely misses the mark.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

You are right -- the role of the government is to implement a safe society, and that includes putting a stop to criminals.

It's true that modern society has forsaken justice in many ways, but that does not mean a just government is wrong. Indeed the Bible strongly supports that leaders rule with justice.

Can you imagine a society where criminals are not punished and stopped? We are getting closer to such, and it isn't good.

Seems APL is advocating that criminals should not be stopped? The message seems to be -- let anarchy reign, no one has the right to stop it, not even God. Let sin destroy itself.
But that is not what I read in scripture. Those in civil leadership have a duty to see that justice is maintained.

God gave Noah and his descendants a command.

"Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed... Gen. 9:6

By paying taxes we support the military and the police.

Romans
13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.
13:5 Wherefore [ye] must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
13:6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

And then you get a vicious cycle. The Islamist believe the same! "If you kill one of my family, we will kill you!" Our message is Jesus Christ. He is the message. What did Jesus say?

Matthew 5:43-44 You have heard that it has been said, You shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy. 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which spitefully use you, and persecute you; (see Leviticus 19:18; Psalms 139:21-22; Proverbs 25:21-22 )

Matthew 5:38-42 You have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. [Exodus 21:24; Leviticus 24:20; Deuteronomy 19:21.] 39 But I say to you, Do not resist the evil man [who injures you]; but if anyone strikes you on the right jaw or cheek, turn to him the other one too. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your undershirt (tunic), let him have your coat also. 41 And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two [miles]. 42 Give to him who keeps on begging from you, and do not turn away from him who would borrow [at interest] from you. [Deuteronomy 15:8; Proverbs 24:29.]

It is really hard to follow Jesus's teachings when self gets in the way.

Taxes - - MM, since we are speaking specifically about the United States, Luke 20:24-25 Show Me denarius (a coin)! Whose image and inscription does it have? They answered, Caesar's. (dead presidents) 25 He said to them, Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.

Was Christ advocating supporting military action? Nope. How fast can a government take away all your money if they wanted to? Money is not our own.

Christ is our message!

Do you really believe the USA should not intervene militarily to stop ISIS? Do you really believe police should not use armed force to keep the peace?

Are the ways of war, peace? To whom to we owe our peace and safety? Is the USA a "Christian"? Is God's Kingdom a kingdom of the sword? Does God use power over people? If you are concerned about yourself and what violence will do to you, then I suggest you have not found the peace of God's Kingdom. Shall we overcome rebellion by force? God's principles are not of this order.

APL seems to be confusing personal vengeance with government responsibility to create a safe environment for it's citizens.

The Biblical ideal is for judges and administrators to deal out justice in a just and responsible manner.

APL also seems to confuse religious force with basic municipality law and order keeping. Religion is not to be enforced by any government, their responsibility is to keep the community safe and free from people who are out to rob, cheat, and kill.

Of course once a person creates a god who will not punish or execute justice and whose very nature supposedly will not put an active stop to evil because that is against what they consider to be "love" for everyone, such a concept will then demand they also promote a society here on earth as well where criminals are never punished or stopped.

The texts quoted are speaking of the personal relationships -- we are not to hate, we are not to seek revenge, and if someone wrongs us we need to forgive and show kindness in return. But criminals still need to be stopped. Love can be shown by visiting them in prison and sharing salvations story with them, and showing genuine and friendly concern for them.
But there still needs to be law and order.

The church has been receiving material on dealing with abuse, urging church members to stop being silent concerning abuse issues.

Case histories are presented.
A wife meekly seeking the pastor's advise, concerning the beatings she receives from her husband (and shows bruises as evidence).
The pastor takes out his bible and reads --
"Do not resist the evil man [who injures you]; but if anyone strikes you on the right jaw or cheek, turn to him the other one too....bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which spitefully use you, and persecute you."

And tells her to go home and be a good wife to her husband. After all her husband is a respected church member.

So she goes back home. As weeks go by the pastor as well as other church members notice the woman often has bruises and is getting more and more with-drawn. Sure they try to be friendly with her, but no one does anything, after all they see the husband as a spiritual person and friend as well.

Then one night the pastor receives a phone call from the hospital, this women is in critical condition due to another senseless beating by her husband. The authorities have arrested the husband.

Was the church doing the right and loving thing?
Were the authorities wrong in arresting the husband?
According to APL it seems he would think so.

APL,

Do you believe that war is always wrong and that God's order does not use war to overcome rebellion?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

It is written:

Jeremiah 17:5-9
5 Thus said the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusts in man, and makes flesh his arm, and whose heart departs from the LORD.
6 For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good comes; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited.
7 Blessed is the man that trusts in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.
8 For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreads out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat comes, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Satan's representations against the government of God, and his defense of those who sided with him, were a constant accusation against God. These murmurings and complaints were groundless. Yet God allowed Satan to work out his theories. He could have handled Satan and all his sympathizers as easily as one can pick up a pebble and cast it to the earth. But by this he would have given a precedent for the violence of man which is so abundantly shown in our world in the compelling principles. The Lord's principles are not of this order. All the compelling power is found under Satan's government. God would not work on this line. He would not give the slightest encouragement for any human being to set himself up as God over another human being, and cause him mental or physical suffering. This principle is wholly of Satan's creation. {18MR 361.1}

Are the ways of war, peace?

No, it is not peace.
The ISIS is WAR
" Isis swept through much of northern and central Iraq over three stunning days, seizing control of Mosul and Tikrit and threatening Kirkuk as three divisions of the Iraqi army shed their uniforms and fled."
They are soldiers conquering cities, robbing banks, vandalizing, killing, terrorizing. Millions are fleeing from their homes.

This is definitely NOT PEACE.
And it's not only in Iraq
Europe is having serious problems with its ever increasing Moslem population. ISIS wants control of European cities as well.

America isn't immune either.

The king of the South is pushing hard!
Whether it's right or wrong the king of the North won't just sit back and let the radical Muslims take over the world.

The king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

Don't expect peace -- the king of the South is pushing for war, and he will get it. But it will be a terrible time of trouble.

The king of the North will overrun them,
but it won't bring peace either.

Peace will only come when Jesus arises to deliver His people.

You didn't answer the question. Yes or no will do. Or are you saying that your heart is too deceitful to give a straight answer?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Hold no parleying with Satan, but meet him with "It is written."

Like Christ, we should be able to meet the enemy in time of temptation with, "It is written." {SD 134.8}

Thank you for the timely reminder, APL.

Satan quoted scripture to Jesus too, but he misapplied it, even as you are doing. Therefore, get thee behind me Satan.

It is written:



That text tells us very clearly that there was a war in Heaven, and that in that war both the dragon/Satan/Devil and Michael fought. They fought against each other. Michael won and He cast Satan and his following out of Heaven.

Seeing as you seem determined to evade the truth with a straight answer, and are unlikely to answer straightly if I were to ask you now regarding the identity of Michael, I think it would indeed be better to "hold no parleying with Satan."

The theology promoted here by the OP leads to an erroneous conception of Christ, one which does not pass the test of comparison with the Scriptures.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

APL, your answer to my question is not clear. I don't know what you believe. Should the USA turn the other cheek? Or should it fight to stop ISIS? Should police turn the other cheek? Or should it fight to stop criminals?

PS - I suspect you believe Jesus would turn the other cheek. I suspect you would turn the other cheek. But I'm not asking what you think you and Jesus would do. My questions concern the USA military and the USA police.

Green - was Christ wrong in His sermon on the mount?

It is written:
2 Corinthians 10:3-5
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

We have a message, Christ and Him crucified.

How was the war fought? Are you suggesting it was a physical war, perhaps with tanks and bombs and rifles and swords? Or are you being "deceitful" and/or have "misapplied it"? Otherwise, why are you bringing this up for comparison?

But APL, do you not consider that is only one aspect of God, but there is also a dark side, too?

For while He says "Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God", maybe there is something elsewhere. Just because I am not aware of it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Maybe there is something in the Bible which says "Blessed are the warriors for they have the same spirit of God". And while He says, "But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you", He may also mean "Love your enemies by setting them on fire!" I mean, He does say "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." So if we want to achieve perfection, shouldn't we set others on fire, (to show our "love"), who disagree with us if we think He does the same to show His "love"? And while He does say, "But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also", that's only once. After turning the other cheek, then you go in with tanks and blow 'em up!

But then again, if He really was a two-faced god, then why would he say all these things to the people? "And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine". Why were the people astonished? If it was because they knew He had a dark side, then He wouldn't be saying anything, for even the publicans were nice to those who were nice to them. So if the people were astonished, it was probably because He was telling them something so different and off-the-wall from what they were accustomed to. It really can't be that He was wasting all their time telling them nothing by meaning, "turn your cheek but make sure they pay for it" or "Blessed are the peacemakers for soon they will be warriors" or "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you for tomorrow you will murder your enemies, curse them, and harm them."

God can't be two-faced or what He said would be meaningless.
And the people wouldn't be astonished.

I'm assuming by "we" in the title, you mean "we".

But a question MM asked, and another question Green had about David, what happens when the people say they will do their own fighting in their own way? What's best as the nation rather than individuals, after the nation has chosen the inferior approach?

If I did consider it, I would need to discount the truth as it is in Jesus. 1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

The Bible is not being deceitful, kland. The Bible tells us there was war, and I believe it. I'm sorry you don't.

No, I do not believe there were guns involved. War happens in many forms. Sometimes, war involves mere words. It is not my duty to manufacture explanations for mysteries which God has not revealed. It is, however, my duty to accept what He has revealed.

The Bible says Christ fought in that war. APL argues that Christians should never fight. Christ is the leader of Christians--and Christ is their example. Should they not also fight as He did and at His command? Christ is the Christian's Commander-in-Chief--a military title. Until sin is vanquished, the war is on. Get your armor on!

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

In the New Testament - give one example of Christians using force of arms sanctioned by God. There is not one. In fact, when the suggestion was made to call fire down and destroy their enemies, what did Christ tell His disciples? "You know not what manner of spirit you are of." In answer to Pilate, Jesus said, John 18:36 My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. In the sermon on the mount, Jesus tells us to pray for our enemies, to do good to them. Do we love our enemies when we kill them?

What has God revealed? He has revealed Jesus. He is our message. Christ never fought with carnal weapons. He never once used force of arms against His enemies. And we want to kill the ISIS soldier!!? Christ IS our example.

It is interesting that it is said we are not to investigate what the word war means, but we sure can interpret what kill means. There is no place for a Christian to take up weapons to kill. Is it in God we trust, or Smith and Wesson?

Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son!

IT IS WRITTEN:



IT IS WRITTEN:



IT IS WRITTEN:



Jesus did not claim the world as His kingdom at that time. That eventuality was yet future. Were this world His kingdom at that time already, He said "...then would my servants fight." Really? He would have them fight?

If fighting were never required (after Old Testament times, of course), why does Jesus not say something like "My servants will never fight, because God is love"?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Jesus raised up the USA. He gives it power and authority to keep the peace and to punish criminals and combatants.

Green quotes: Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

But Green - always read around the text.

When Christ sent out the disciples, they went out without purse, money, shoes, WEAPONS, and they lacked nothing. Look at Jesus's comment to Peter when Peter said they had 2 swords, Jesus said, "it is enough". What does Jesus mean? 2 Swords are enough for all the disciples? Not against the Roman army or the temple guard! Or since His time was short, and dismisses the subject, Gethsemane is about to happen, "it is enough", talk no more on the subject... And for more evidence, just read a little further when Peter, who did not get it, uses his sword, what was Christ response? Well done though good and faithful servant? Nope.

Green quotes: Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Are we to think that that Prince of Peace is also a prince of darkness? A prince of war? Is this another example of love Me, or I'll kill you? NO. Christ came to set sinners at peace with God. Those that refuse to believe the truth and come to God will be condemned as having heresy and false doctrine, and hated. This is not peace. Matthew 10:22 And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved.

Green quotes: John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Earthly kingdoms are established by force of arms, but Jesus’ kingdom was not earthly.

Satan's representations against the government of God, and his defense of those who sided with him, were a constant accusation against God. His murmurings and complaints were groundless; and yet God allowed him to work out his theory. God could have destroyed Satan and all his sympathizers as easily as one can pick up a pebble and cast it to the earth. But by so doing he would have given a precedent for the exercise of force. All the compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. He would not work on this line. He would not give the slightest encouragement for any human being to set himself up as God over another human being, feeling at liberty to cause him physical or mental suffering. This principle is wholly of Satan's creation. {RH, September 7, 1897 par. 7}

Quoting Green: If fighting were never required (after Old Testament times, of course), why does Jesus not say something like "My servants will never fight, because God is love"?

WHERE does it say His servants will fight? What does Jesus say? Love your enemies. They may, and some will, hate you back. It is not peace at the compromise of the Gospel as Matthew 10:34 states. Jesus says, Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; NEVER does He say, fight those that hate you and kill them.

Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son!

When Adventism abandon's it's historic pacifist position, it's a sign of the end. We confronted the question first in the American Civil War and again in WWI and WWII. In the last 40 years our historic position has gradually been abandoned and we've come to view war almost in the same light as the world - a necessary evil.

Two of the most inspiring books I've read are "The Unlikeliest Hero" about Desmond Doss and "A Thousand Shall Fall" about Franz Hassell in Hitler's army. Both were pacifists and God repeatedly honored their stand for truth.

Church and State are uniting.
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And Adventists are calling it necessary and good!

APL,

If Jesus did not like swords, and did not want Peter to have one, why did He command the disciples to go buy one if they didn't have one?

You didn't say anything in your response to me about this command of Jesus--do you know why He gave it?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Green - read the whole segment, and read the sermon on the mount. Did Christ commend Peter for using the sword? Read the entire book of Acts. Where the disciples ever commanded to carry a weapon? Not once. Note verse 37, what was fulfilled? In verse 38, the disciples appear to take Christ literally (as you are) when they produce 2 swords. Jesus cuts the discussion off, "it is enough".

Green - what is THE sword of the Lord? A physical weapon of murder? Nope. Jesus rebuked Peter for using one! Here the sword of the Lord is defined. I suggest buying of of these and not a hunk of metal.

Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

I see. So you're trying to tell us that although Jesus told His disciples that even though they had been sent out without purses and without money, He changed His mind and told them that, now, whichever of them had a purse and money was supposed to take it; and if they didn't have a sword, they were supposed to sell their garment to buy one--that Jesus meant they were supposed to sell their (garment?) to buy the sword?

What am I supposed to sell?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I see, so it is better to go around naked with a sword that clothed without one.

Green - Did you reread the sermon on the mount? What are we to do to our enemies? What did Christ do? Romans 5:6-8 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Shall we then go out and kill our enemies? That is the way of all kingdoms of the earth. It is not the way of God's Kingdom. The battle which we have to fight--the greatest battle that was ever fought by man--is the surrender of self to the will of God, the yielding of the heart to the sovereignty of love.

Not unless God commands you to do so. But when He commands it, you better not disobey, or even only partially comply, like Saul did.

David killed Goliath when prompted by the Holy Spirit to do so. When we are connected to God, we will know how to fight His battles, and not be caught up with fighting our own. When Jesus tells you to do something, do it--just be sure you have spent enough time with Him to recognize His voice, as Abraham so well demonstrated for us when God commanded him to kill his son Isaac.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Why do you ignore the testimony of Jesus?

No doubt there will come a time when we hear a voice to go and kill. Will we know who it belongs to?

APL,

Who is ignoring the testimony of Jesus? You are the one who made a sarcastic remark about His command to sell one's garment to buy a sword--instead of answering my question about what that command meant. Do you want to walk around naked, as you suggested, in answer to Jesus' command?

It is our privilege to learn of Jesus every day. If we are not walking with Him, we won't recognize His voice, though we may certainly think we are hearing Him. Self-deception is a sobering reality for many. Would Jesus use sarcasm? Should we? When we seek truth, do we try to force it into our own mold of thinking? Are we too proud to change our opinions, and therefore turn to mockery of the Word of God, by misapplication, sarcasm, and wit?

God's Word is not meant to be used the way many use it. It is meant to be taken in full and proper balance, comparing scripture with scripture, and it can only be rightly understood with the help of the Holy Spirit. Our own "intelligence" is no match for the Bible. We must never presume to know how it should be interpreted apart from a "thus saith the Lord" and the voice of His Spirit.

Please answer me regarding what the garment represents if the sword is but a symbol. I agree that the sword might be a symbol. But if it is, the garment must also be a symbol. What does it mean? Ask God to help you understand it. And what does it mean to "buy" the sword?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Green - I have given you scripture what tells you what the sword of the Lord is, and it is not a hunk of metal. Again - why do you ignore the testimony of Jesus?

Speaking of straight answers Green, do you have one to that is on the topic of this thread? How Are We To Love the Soldiers of ISIS? Is killing them loving them? Is that your answer?

We can love the members of ISIS but we cannot love the goals of ISIS. However, most of us will never meet a member of ISIS face to face. So, our loving them does not benefit them. It doesn't influence them to change their goals. In the meantime, therefore, we owe a debt of gratitude to our military for working to stop ISIS from achieving their goals, namely, to kill us.

The US Military - is it a part of the kingdoms of the earth or the Kingdom or God? The former. Are the governments of Russia, China, Iran, Saudi Arabia not ordained by God also?

Was Israel of old delivered from Egypt by force of arms? Nope, in contrast to that which Moses had hoped to do. Moses had to learn the truth over 40 years.

The Jewish nation in the time of Jesus hoped to be delivered from the Roman oppression by the force of arms. Did it work? Nope.

The Jews asked, what would become of their nation if he were satisfied to be without force of arms?

What would become of their nation if he were satisfied to be without force of arms? When and how would the glory and power, so long anticipated, bring the nations as subjects to the city of the Jews? Had not the priests taught that they were to bear rule over all the earth? and could it be possible that the great religious teachers were in error? The Lord had answered their query through Isaiah: "O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." {RH, July 6, 1911 par. 11}

His ways are not by use of force or arms.

Blinders, arrogance, maybe someone else can help me with the word I'm looking for here.


Green to APL: You didn't answer the question. Yes or no will do. Or are you saying that your heart is too deceitful to give a straight answer?

APL: Hold no parleying with Satan, but meet him with "It is written."
Like Christ, we should be able to meet the enemy in time of temptation with, "It is written." {SD 134.8}

Green: Satan quoted scripture to Jesus too, but he misapplied it, even as you are doing. Therefore, get thee behind me Satan.


Green, do you intend to attempt to make us believe that APL does not believe what the Bible says? Do you think he is saying he doesn't believe what the Bible says? Do you suppose that he may think that he believes what the Bible says and is sorry that you don't? Many times you make up what the Bible says, claiming it is simple step in logic, to come to your personal conclusion.

Or is this another example of you being deceitful to try to get your way? I wasn't talking about the Bible, but was addressing you being deceitful and misapplying it. Do you think I am claiming this ISN'T what the Bible says? You even admit you do not believe there were guns involved. So why are you making a comparison to the type of war in heaven with the war of ISIS, which involves guns?

In what way is the attitude expressed any different from the papacy, Hitler, ISIS, and others feel about themselves?

kland,

Here is my perception of the conversation thus far:

I quoted the Bible saying that Michael fought during the war in heaven. You came back with asking me if I were being deceitful. I answered that the Bible is not deceitful (for I had but used the Bible's own words). Now you tell me, again, that I am being deceitful.

Now, if this is not how you perceive it, please be more clear in what you were focused upon. If this IS how you perceived it, I would like you to tell me where in the Bible you get the idea that there was NOT a war in Heaven, or that Michael (Jesus) did NOT fight. If you can establish those counter-biblical "truths," then I will accept that I was being deceitful. Until then, perhaps I shall leave off parleying, as APL so aptly reminds us to do.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

It is indeed my perception that APL does not accept nor believe that Jesus would ever fight, despite the fact the Bible tells us this. Let him clarify this point for himself, if he will.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Green, APL quotes Bible verses the same as you do.


In case you missed it above:
"So why are you making a comparison to the type of war in heaven with the war of ISIS, which involves guns?"

Is this not being deceitful on your part?

Guess I missed the fact that that was your focus. It looked more like a rhetorical question to me.

If you want an answer to that, my first thought would be that both wars are alike battles against evil. In fact, all of the Great Controversy has been such a war. Good will triumph in the end, thankfully.

We know from the Bible, however, that angels do indeed fight with swords. I suppose it matters little whether it is a sword or a gun...both are used to kill. God's angels can be mighty warriors.

Did God love the soldiers in Sennacherib's army? He certainly did. Why did God command His angel to kill them?

This thread, however, is supposedly focused upon what our response should be. My personal response to ISIS is non-existent and moot, seeing as I have no contact with them. If I were to meet them, my duty would be to show Jesus to them in any way possible--whether that means driving them out of God's temple in holy indignation, or giving them a glass of cold water to quench their thirst. Each one should be in tune with God's Spirit to know the wisest course of action in every situation.

Where I work, my choices are a bit different: do I love them all by telling them about Jesus? or do I love them by NOT telling them all, so that I can avoid deportation or imprisonment which will prevent me from having additional opportunities to teach here. One must be prudent and discrete: the serpent and the dove.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I thank God daily for our troops who are working to stop ISIS.

Do angels indeed fight with instruments of iron? If not, why are you making a comparison to the type of war in heaven with the war of ISIS, which involves guns? and instruments of iron?

Pray for our troops as they fight to preserve freedom.

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one.

Our troops? Nope. Christ is the only one.

An interesting blog ISIS from a non-violent church.

http://blog.chron.com/thepeacepastor/2014/09/isis-alternatives/

The Bible tells me angels fight with swords. That's all I need to know. I am not obligated to know whether their swords are made of iron, of brass, of gold, of fire, of light, or of cotton. Whatever it is, it can kill, and is very efficient in accomplishing its purposes.

Regarding ISIS: Back to the motives. Why is ISIS fighting? Should we let them plunder, rape, and pillage freely without resistance? That is a question our superiors are responsible for answering. God instituted governments to help protect the people, and perhaps we have some duty to help our neighbors as well.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

APL, please pray for our troops. Pray that they will successfully stop ISIS.

Zechariah 4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

Luke 6:27-28 But I say to you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, 28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which spitefully use you.

Is doing good to ISIS sending in JDAMs Moutain Man?

"SELF-PRESERVATION is the first law of nature."
But self-sacrifice is the first law of grace.
In order to self-preservation, self-defense is essential.
In order to self-sacrifice, self-surrender is essential.
In self-defense, the only thing that can be employed is force.
In self-surrender, the only thing that can be employed is love.
In self-preservation, by self-defense, through the employment of force, force meets force, and this means only war.
In self-sacrifice, by self-surrender, through love, force is met by love, and this means only peace.
Self-preservation, then, means only war: while self-sacrifice means only peace.
But war means only death: Self-preservation, then, meaning only war, means only death. While self-sacrifice, meaning only peace, means only life.
Self-preservation being the first law of nature, nature then means only death. While self-sacrifice being the first law of grace, grace means only life.
But death is only the wages of sin: nature, then meaning only death, it is so only because nature means sin. While life being only the reward of righteousness: grace meaning only life, it is so only because grace means righteousness.
Sin and righteousness, nature and grace, are directly opposite and antagonistic elements. They occupy realms absolutely distinct. Nature, self-preservation, self-defense, force, war, and death, occupy only the realm of sin. Grace, self-sacrifice, self-surrender, love, peace, and life, occupy only the realm of righteousness.
The realm of sin is the realm of Satan. The realm of grace is the realm of God. All the power of the domain of grace is devoted to saving men from the dominion of sin. This in order, that "as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign, through righteousness, unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord."
On which side do you stand in this great controversy?

APL, please pray for our men and women who have been sent into harms way to stop ISIS.

Mountain Man - which of the wars that US has fought have been just wars? Please tell if you can.

Will the US be successful? Have it been successful in any campaign since 9/11? NO. CLICK HERE

Must we terrorize the terrorists so they won't practice terrorism?

Sorry, I was using your definition of murder. Guess you have thoroughly abandoned that now.


But back to my objection of your invalid and deceitful comparison. You are digging yourself deeper and deeper. What does the Bible tell us how we are to fight and what the sword? Hint: Eph 6

What if they say/believe God told them to?

APL, please pray for our troops (even if you disagree with the USA).

Do you pray for the ISIS people also?

Yes, of course. I pray they will embrace the 3AM and stop fighting.

Is the US a Christian Nation? On what side will the US come down on the 3AM? Do you not see an "image" of something in what the US is doing in the Middle East?

I'm talking about the troops. Human beings. Family members. Please pray for our troops.

Are the troops a Christian Army? Are not ISIS human beings? And the Iraqi people who are caught in the crossfire, again! They are suffering. Violence begets violence. War is never a success. Name one war that has brought lasting peace. There is none. Has the US involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan brought peace? Nope.

You are missing the point. Pray for our troops. Not asking you to pray for war. Turning the other cheek is not going to stop ISIS from killing people. I happen to agree war is not the answer. Beefing up our borders and security would do more to protect US citizens. We should spend billions on border control instead of on war.

Only addressing your responses and nothing else, do you also pray that the U.S. troops will embrace the "3AM" and stop fighting?

Yes. And I also pray the USA will spend war money on border protection instead. I hate war. Both my boys served in Iraq. I'm glad they made it home alive. I'm also glad they didn't kill anyone.

Why? Because it is actually murder?

If two men fight say over a disputed corner of land, and one is killed, is it murder? What is the difference if there are two combatants, or 2 million?

Border - in whom do you trust? Armed guards, or God? What are you worried about?

Stop foreign terrorists from killing US citizens here at home by beefing up our borders. Trusting in Jesus means - doing our part and trusting Jesus to do His part. It's called - faith that works by love and purifies the soul.

Is not killing the border crosser murder? Faith means you kill people? Really? I don't think so. What does the Bible say about how we should tread the foreigner among us?

The point of beefing up our borders is to keep foreign terrorists out. Don't have to kill them if they can't get in.

I am also interested in why you said, "I'm also glad they didn't kill anyone". Why? If there is nothing wrong with killing someone if the government tells you to, then why should you be glad for them not following the government expectations? Wouldn't that be unpatriotic?

Or is there something wrong with killing people, whether in love or war?

My boys didn't kill anyone because they served in support roles. No, there is nothing wrong with killing an enemy combatant during battle.

So MM, if one of your sons had been killed in the war, it was just that, a statistic, a death, not murder.

Definitely not murder.

So we can conclude that the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was just a statistic of war, definitely not murder.

Sad

Just war. Sad.

There is no such thing as a just war. War is murder. Did Israel fight? Yep. Did they ever have to? Nope. Their minds were blinded - terribly blinded. We should not follow in the same path. Did Israel's wars get them the result they needed? Nope. Will war today get us the results we need? Never. Christ told us we are not to fight. Why do Christians fight?

War is definitely justified. Ask the Germans, English, French, etc if stopping Hitler was justified. The Bible is full of examples of justified war.

Indeed. If Hitler had been allowed to conquer everyone (supposing they could not fight), Bible prophecy would have been defeated. The image of Daniel 2 would have been falsified.

I believe America did as God willed in that war.

Ellen White answers APL more eloquently than I could on this question, however.



That is plain. God sometimes requires His people to go to war. At the same time, it is sin for His people to question God's wisdom in requiring thus.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

So terribly blinded had they become by transgression. The Lord had never commanded them to "go up and fight." It was not His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare, but by strict obedience to His commands. {PP 392.3}

That is also plain.

"But the children of Israel did fight throughout all their natural existence, and under God's direction, too," it will be urged. That is very true, but it does not at all prove that it was God's purpose that they should fight. We must not forget that "their minds were blinded" by unbelief, so that they could not perceive the purpose of God for them. They did not grasp the spiritual realities of the kingdom of God, but were content with shadows instead; and the same God who bore with their hardness of heart in the beginning, and strove to teach them by shadows, when they would not have the substance, still remained with them, compassionately considerate of their infirmities. God himself suffered them, because of the hardness of their hearts, to have a plurality of wives, and even laid down rules regulating polygamy, in order to diminish as far as possible the resulting evils, but that does not prove that He designed it for them. We well know that "from the beginning it was not so." So when Jesus forbade His followers to fight in any cause whatever, He introduced nothing new, any more than when He taught that a man should have but one wife, and should cleave to her as long as he lived. He was simply enunciating first principles--preaching a thorough reformation. {1900 EJW, EVCO 385.2}

The radical Jesus is hard to accept.

APL,

Do you accept the fact that Mrs. White is saying God has required His people to "make war with other nations"?

Whether or not you do, I will not blind myself to this fact in order to suit fancy, pride, or opinion. I hope you will yet choose a similar course.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Green - do you accept the fact that EGW said that the Children or Israel had no need to fight? But fight they did! And with God's direction to! But it was not God's plan. You say you see, but are you really blind? John 9:39-41

You cannot make sense of it, APL, can you? You say they fought, "with God's direction to," but without a "need to fight?" If you can make sense of that, I surely cannot.

Yes, they had not been instructed to go up and fight at the time that they did so. There were other times when God instructed otherwise. Your difficulty is encountered when you try to make a hard and fast rule from a single instruction which you think must be unilaterally applied to all and sundry circumstances ever after. But God is not like that.

Yes, there were times when God had not instructed His people to fight, and they rebelliously did so anyhow. I accept that fully. But once again, while I am quite willing to answer a question straightly, it is observed that you seem unable to do so.

Do you accept the fact that Mrs. White is saying God has required His people to "make war with other nations"?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

What you don't accept is how God has dealt with the unbelief and hard-hearted. I have used the example of divorce, which you will immediately say is off topic which demonstrates how God works. Even deleting posts which use the principle. God gave laws for divorce, you can't deny that. But divorce was NEVER in God's plan. There is no difference with that and the war the people insisted on, so blinded by unbelief.

The 3-Angels message is all about righteousness by Faith. The Old Covenant was the people making the promise that THEY would keep the rules by their own works. It failed as it always will fail. The 3 angels messages are all about who God is, and what He is like, and central to this is a knowledge of the Character of God.

Read EGW by what all she says on the topic. Can you do that without taking one soundbite? Put all the pieces together. The people NEVER needed to fight. And yet they fought. YOU claim it is because God required it. That is not how I read it at all. The People fought, and just as divorce, SAME PRINCIPLE, God gave instructions.

APL, your unwillingness to pray for our troops is not only unpatriotic, it is also ungrateful. Our troops fight to preserve freedom. Perhaps living under an oppressive government, like North Korea, might motivate you to appreciate your blood-bought, hard-fought freedom. Some people live their entire lives in ignorance of Jesus and in fear of their government. That could be you if you had your wishes (do not resist godless dictators like Hitler).