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Should the Body Discipline Members for disagreeing on 28FB
#170209
11/28/14 05:56 PM
11/28/14 05:56 PM
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OP
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Died February 12, 2019
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This question was raised from Page 45 of the follwing discussion: Are The 28 Fundamental Beliefs of the SDA Church a Creed in Itself? The 3 quotations box is how the discussion proceeded. I brought these here so that we can continue the topic from here. My appology if I didn't bring every thing on the topic here. I should of started this discussion when MM requested it at the first place. In all that was said below, only 1 Biblical text(Mat 18) was brought forth by Mountain Man to support in favor for disciplining members in disagreement with the FBs of the Body. However, I do not see that texts as a valid support and addressing this question. I would like to dig further into the Bible to see and to know what the Lord think about this question and what would be His Ways and His will for the church body to handle a members that dissagree with the majority of the member's point of view about a certain doctrine or foundamental belief. Discussion started here : Mountain Man:Kland, what is the underlying motive for rejecting something as plain as Cain killed Able? Why would someone reject something so obvious? If they are so willing to reject something so obvious what else are they willing to reject? There is nothing trivial or light-hearted about rejecting things in the Bible that are so obvious. There are reasons why people do so. Those reasons cannot be good. Would you hold pastors or members in good and regular standing if they understood and rejected the obvious truths in the Bible? Yes, they are free to do so. But the church is free to discipline them. Even obligated.
Elle : Isn't this the same reasoning and spirit the little horn took to discipline their members?
MM: No. I don't think so. How do you envision the SDA Church exercising gospel order, church discipline (Matthew 18)? Do you know of any Bible truths necessary to believe to be translated alive when Jesus arrives?
Elle: I read Mat 18 very quickly and from what I got that it is the Father(the head) that disciplines His children(individuals of the body), I didn't see instructions for the body disciplining other members of the body. In the exception of Mat 18:15-20 where we find Jesus laying out 3 steps to win your brother back when a brother transgress against you personally. This is not about having different doctrinal beliefs. A transgression towards you is something like stealing, bearing false witness against you, etc...
Where do you see that it is written that the Church should discipline other members?
MM : Elle, gospel order and church discipline was practiced by the early Church. Councils were held and doctrines formulated. Members were required to abide accordingly.
E: What(or when) do you mean with "early church". Can you show me your source and tell me the year? We know the early church rapidly deteriorated into the little horn beast system extension within only 300 years. Just because that they did that in the past let’s say around 100yrs AD doesn’t mean it was Biblical and were following the Lord’s ways.
Let’s focus on what the Bible tells us. Is there support that says the Church body is to discipline members for not believing the same as the body?
MM : Please start a thread on this topic.
Then Arnold brought his own understanding discussing with Mountain Man:
MM: Arnold, you are not arguing against the truthfulness, the biblical soundness and accuracy of the 28FB. You agree with the 28FB of the SDA Church. Your problem is not with the 28FB. Rather, your problem is with the SDA Church requiring baptismal candidates to agree with them and to live in harmony with them.
Arnold: I have no problem with the content of the 28 FB at this time. But there may come a time when the FB list changes or my beliefs change. Then I will have a problem with the content.
My problem now is with viewing the FB as the standard. The FB itself says that the Bible is our standard. Those who raise the FB as the authoritative standard are rejecting it.
I also have a problem with those who believe it is impossible for the FB to be wrong. History is littered with the carcasses of those who claimed infallibility and those they persecuted. I will not fall for that trap.
BTW, Philip did not require the FB for his baptismal candidates.
MM: Do you feel members and leaders should be free to disagree with one or more of the 28FB and maintain good and regular status and standing? For example, do you feel members and leaders should be free to reject the SDA Church interpretation of the 3AM (as articulated in the SOP)?
A: I feel that enforcement of the FB is an organizational issue, not a moral one. One can reject the FB and still be in good standing with God. But such a one can only be in good standing with the organization if the organization allows for freedom of thought.
MM: Well, it is obvious I am outnumbered on this thread. However, I'm glad the SDA Church voted to approve the 28FB. I'm also glad they print books like The Great Controversy.
A: Would it be righteous for us to take a vote and discipline you for disagreeing with the majority?
MM:I appreciate the humor. Really I do. However, if you were to vote to discipline me because I agree with what Ellen White wrote in The Great Controversy - Do you think the SDA Church would side with you?
On the other hand, would you vote to discipline members or leaders who reject the truth about the Sabbath and the state of the dead? Or, would you vote to grant them membership in good and regular standing?
A: That was intended to be as humorous as your idea that because a bunch a people voted the 28FB in, we must all submit to it. Indeed, it is a joke. If we were to vote to discipline you, it would carry as much moral weight as your beloved, GC-approved FB.
But to correct your misconception that you agree with the Great Controversy, keep this in mind: But God will have a people upon the earth to maintain the Bible, and the Bible only, as the standard of all doctrines and the basis of all reforms. The opinions of learned men, the deductions of science, the creeds or decisions of ecclesiastical councils, as numerous and discordant as are the churches which they represent, the voice of the majority—not one nor all of these should be regarded as evidence for or against any point of religious faith. Before accepting any doctrine or precept, we should demand a plain “Thus saith the Lord” in its support. – {GC 595.1}
Your faith in the majority is misguided. The Bible is our only creed.
MM: On the other hand, would you vote to discipline members or leaders who reject the truth about the Sabbath and the state of the dead? Or, would you vote to grant them membership in good and regular standing?
A: I would vote them out of office, given that they cannot lead if they are blind. If they were not members of the church, I would ask them their motivation for joining a group whose pillar beliefs they do not share. They must count the cost. But in any case, I would ask them to join my SS class so we can search the Scriptures to see if these things are so.
It continue and ended like this before I started this topic : A: From the intro to the 28FB: Seventh-day Adventists accept the Bible as their only creed and hold certain fundamental beliefs to be the teaching of the Holy Scriptures. These beliefs, as set forth here, constitute the church’s understanding and expression of the teaching of Scripture. Revision of these statements may be expected at a General Conference session when the church is led by the Holy Spirit to a fuller understanding of Bible truth or finds better language in which to express the teachings of God’s Holy Word. MM: The SDA Church has revised how we word and enumerate our FB, but they have never revised what we believe. Our FB exist today as they did when the Holy Spirit first confirmed them through the spirit of prophecy. We can rest assured He will never debunk them. They are as true now as they will be throughout eternity. Don't have to worry or wonder if He will change His mind. Truth continues to unfold as the scroll of time unrolls. We learn more details about the truth. Details that flesh out the truth. This, too, will continue throughout eternity. MM : Here's a link to the latest news regarding proposed revisions to the 28FB. A: “The language of our fundamental beliefs is intended to be a consensus statement of what we agree is the teaching of the Bible, and this language helps us achieve that goal.”A "consensus statement" is a radically different thing from a "standard by which to judge and discipline each other." One reflects our beliefs, the other defines our beliefs. MM : Beliefs you believe are Bible-based. Beliefs you believe are right and true. Beliefs you believe the Holy Spirit confirmed through the spirit of prophecy. You also believe church discipline is necessary when members and leaders reject or refuse to live in harmony with the law of God. I hope you believe church discipline is necessary when members and leaders reject or refuse to believe our distinctive doctrines, namely, the seventh-day Sabbath, the state of the dead, the spirit of prophecy, the 2300 day prophecy, the investigative judgment, the remnant church, and the mark of the beast. A : You still don't get it. I think I have made my point as well as I can. You are still stuck on the truth of the beliefs, while I have been focused on the spirit of persecution in your heart. As one preacher says, we do most of our sinning when we are right. MM : I don't understand why you are opposing a summary of what you believe. You believe in church discipline. It is biblical. The church is obligated. It is not persecution. Ellen White describes it in no uncertain terms: I have been shown that our church rules are very deficient. All exhibitions of pride in dress, which is forbidden in the word of God, should be sufficient reason for church discipline. If there is a continuance, in face of warnings and appeals and entreaties, to still follow the perverse will, it may be regarded as proof that the heart is in no way assimilated to Christ. Self, and only self, is the object of adoration, and one such professed Christian will lead many away from God. {4T 647.2}
No church can be in a healthy, flourishing condition unless its leaders shall take firm, decided measures to repress this fault-finding, accusing spirit wherever it exists. Its indulgence should be made a matter of church discipline; for it is a violation of the law of God, a violation of the rules which Christ has laid down for preserving order in the church. If these mischievous talkers are not subjected to church discipline they become confirmed in their evil work, and God charges the guilt upon the church. {RH, October 19, 1886 par. 10}
If members of the church go contrary to these rules, they make themselves subjects for church discipline, and should be under the censure of the church. This matter, so plainly taught in the lessons of Christ, has been treated with strange indifference. The church has either neglected her work entirely in the matter of correcting evil, or has done it with harshness and severity, thus wounding and bruising souls. {RH, April 16, 1895 par. 9}
Christ gives power to the voice of the church. "Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." No such thing is countenanced as one man's starting out upon his own individual responsibility and advocating what views he chooses, irrespective of the judgment of the church. God has bestowed the highest power under heaven upon His church. It is the voice of God in His united people in church capacity which is to be respected. 431 {CCh 241.4}
The Word of God does not give license for one man to set up his judgment in opposition to the judgment of the church, neither is he allowed to urge his opinions against the opinions of the church. If there were no church discipline and government, the church would go to fragments; it could not hold together as a body. There have ever been individuals of independent minds who have claimed that they were right, that God had especially taught, impressed, and led them. Each has a theory of his own, views peculiar to himself, and each claims that his views are in accordance with the word of God. Each one has a different theory and faith, yet each claims special light from God. These draw away from the body, and each one is a separate church of himself. All these cannot be right, yet they all claim to be led of the Lord. {CCh 241.5}
Elders and deacons are chosen to have a care for the prosperity of the church; yet these leaders, especially in young churches, should not feel at liberty, on their own judgment and responsibility, to cut off offending members from the church; they are not invested with such authority. Many indulge a zeal like that of Jehu and rashly venture to make decisions in matters of grave importance, while they themselves have no connection with God. They should humbly and earnestly seek wisdom from the One who has placed them in their position, and should be very modest in assuming responsibilities. They should also lay the matter before the president of their conference and counsel with him. At some appointed time the subject should be patiently considered. In the fear of God, with much humility and sorrow for the erring, who are the purchase of the blood of Christ, with earnest, humble prayer the proper officers should deal with the offenders. How different has been the course when, with self-assumed authority and a hard, unfeeling spirit, accusations have been made and souls have been thrust out of the church of Christ. {12MR 113.1}
Let none speak lightly of the duty of the church to administer censure and rebuke; neither let them criticize the action of the church when this painful task becomes necessary. Christ has given plain instruction regarding the duty of the church toward those who, while professing to be loyal members, are bringing dishonor to the cause of God by their course of action. "Every plant, which my Heavenly Father hath not planted," he says, "shall be rooted up." God has commanded that those who prove themselves unworthy of church-fellowship shall be separated from his body. Those who speak against the exercise of this authority, speak against the authority of Christ. {RH, March 19, 1908 par. 15} A: I do not protest against the 28 FB, if used as the document itself states: "A consensus statement of what we agree is the teaching of the Bible." I protest when it is used as a standard for orthodoxy. The 28 FB should not "be regarded as evidence for or against any point of religious faith." That's the Bible's job. If someone is in error, take them to the Word of God, not the Cliff's Notes version. MM: You cannot have it both ways - 1) the 28FB are right and true and biblical, and 2) the church cannot require her members and leaders to believe them. Either the 28FB are right and true and biblical or they are not. If they are right and true and biblical then the church is obligated to require her members and leaders to believe them, to live in harmony with them. Refusal requires church discipline. Members and leaders of the church are not free to reject foundation, fundamental Bible truths with impunity. Church discipline preserves the integrity of truth.
Blessings
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Re: Should the Body Discipline Members for disagreeing on 28FB
[Re: Elle]
#170212
11/28/14 07:27 PM
11/28/14 07:27 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Should the Body Discipline Members for disagreeing on 28FB?
1. The Church.
Matthew
16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Acts
2:47 And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
5:11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.
8:3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed [them] to prison.
11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
14:23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.
15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; [namely], Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Romans
16:5 Likewise [greet] the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.
1 Corinthians
4:17 For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.
10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
11:18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
Ephesians
1:22 And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church,
1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing.
Colossians
1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.
4:16 And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the [epistle] from Laodicea.
1 Timothy
3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
5:16 If any man or woman that believeth have widows, let them relieve them, and let not the church be charged; that it may relieve them that are widows indeed.
James
5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
3 John
1:9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.
1:10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth [them] out of the church.
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Re: Should the Body Discipline Members for disagreeing on 28FB
[Re: Elle]
#170213
11/28/14 07:40 PM
11/28/14 07:40 PM
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SDA
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Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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John
20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained.
1 Corinthians
5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
2 Thessalonians
3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
3:15 Yet count [him] not as an enemy, but admonish [him] as a brother.
Galatians
1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
1 Timothy
5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
Titus
2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
Hebrews
13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of [their] conversation.
13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For [it is] a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.
13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that [is] unprofitable for you.
13:24 Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.
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Re: Should the Body Discipline Members for disagreeing on 28FB
[Re: Elle]
#170214
11/28/14 07:43 PM
11/28/14 07:43 PM
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SDA
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Joined: Oct 2000
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Acts
15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, [and said], Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
15:3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
15:4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and [of] the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command [them] to keep the law of Moses.
15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men [and] brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as [he did] unto us;
15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men [and] brethren, hearken unto me:
15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.
15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; [namely], Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
15:23 And they wrote [letters] by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren [send] greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment:
15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
15:26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell [you] the same things by mouth.
15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
15:30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:
15:31 [Which] when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.
15:32 And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed [them].
15:33 And after they had tarried [there] a space, they were let go in peace from the brethren unto the apostles.
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Re: Should the Body Discipline Members for disagreeing on 28FB
[Re: Elle]
#170215
11/28/14 07:49 PM
11/28/14 07:49 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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The Church is a body of believers ruled by ordained leaders who exercise authority in matters of doctrine and discipline.
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Re: Should the Body Discipline Members for disagreeing on 28FB
[Re: Mountain Man]
#170216
11/28/14 09:32 PM
11/28/14 09:32 PM
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OP
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019
2500+ Member
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
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Should the Body Discipline Members for disagreeing on 28FB?
1. The Church.
Matthew
16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Acts
2:47 And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
5:11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.
8:3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed [them] to prison.
11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
14:23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.
15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; [namely], Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Romans
16:5 Likewise [greet] the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.
1 Corinthians
4:17 For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.
10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
11:18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
Ephesians
1:22 And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church,
1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing.
Colossians
1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.
4:16 And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the [epistle] from Laodicea.
1 Timothy
3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
5:16 If any man or woman that believeth have widows, let them relieve them, and let not the church be charged; that it may relieve them that are widows indeed.
James
5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
3 John
1:9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.
1:10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth [them] out of the church.
I read them all in this post, and frankly I don't see any one coming even close to the question. If there's something I'm missing, please highlight the text that address the issue please. I would like to see what you see in here.
Blessings
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Re: Should the Body Discipline Members for disagreeing on 28FB
[Re: Mountain Man]
#170217
11/28/14 09:47 PM
11/28/14 09:47 PM
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John
20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained.
I don't see this pertaining.
1 Corinthians
5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
I don't fully grab what Paul's means here about not eating with transgressors or put away that wicked person. Sometimes translations are not accurate. I would need to look at the Greek words and all to have a better handle of what he is saying that can take some time. However, from verses 1 to 8, it was widely known within the Church that one of their members(could be a leader, Paul does not mention who the person was because everyone already knew) were comiting wide open fornication -- incest to be more exact. Even the unbelievers would be ashamed of. Anyway this text does not address the question about not having different beliefs.
Blessings
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Re: Should the Body Discipline Members for disagreeing on 28FB
[Re: Mountain Man]
#170218
11/28/14 11:05 PM
11/28/14 11:05 PM
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OP
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John
2 Thessalonians
3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
3:15 Yet count [him] not as an enemy, but admonish [him] as a brother.
The context of this found from v.6 to 13 seems to be refering of someone that is pretending to work(v.11) in the ministry yet eating off the member's(v.8). Paul talks about they "walketh disorderly, and not afer the tradition which he received of us"(v.6). According to the context it is related to the ministerial work and I don't know if Paul is pointing out that ministers out to work for their bread like Paul was doing in supporting himself in his own tent making business while ministering. Is this the tradition he's refering too? Could be. Again I don't see this text addressing beliefs.
Blessings
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Re: Should the Body Discipline Members for disagreeing on 28FB
[Re: Elle]
#170219
11/28/14 11:06 PM
11/28/14 11:06 PM
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SDA
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The passages I posted above demonstrate the role of church and church leadership. Church leadership ruled on doctrine and discipline. The first general council held in Jerusalem reflects church leadership deciding doctrine and determining direction for the church. "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves". "And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him". "If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." "Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained." "Whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
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Re: Should the Body Discipline Members for disagreeing on 28FB
[Re: Mountain Man]
#170227
11/29/14 12:41 AM
11/29/14 12:41 AM
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OP
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Galatians
1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
This english word " accursed" is one of those mis-understood Greek word and thus mistranslated. The Greek word is Anathema that comes from ana, “ up, upward, in the midst,” and tithemi, “ to set, put, place.” Gesenius Lexicon defines it as “ a thing set up or laid by in order to be kept, specifically, a votive offering.” In other words, like an offering devoted for a sacrifice to the Lord. A lamb offering is not cursed but it is devoted ( anathema in Greek and cherem in Hebrew). I have studied this Hebrew word cherem in the past a few times. Still need to study it again as it is one of those things that is quite deep and I haven't grabbed it completely. So my explaining will be shabby. However something to bring to the Lord to study again and again. But the meaning of anathema in Greek and cheremin Hebrew comes from the law of devotion found in Lev 27:28 Nevertheless, anything which a man sets apart [cherem, “devotes, consecrates”] to the Lord out of all that he has, of man or animal or of the fields of his own property, shall not be sold or redeemed. Anything devoted [cherem] to destruction is most holy to the Lord.. Paul understood the law of devotion very well as it is transparent in many of his writings. Meaning, everything devoted to destruction(like our carnal mind or the "old man" like Paul refers to) is not for sale or cannot be redeemed(repurchased by the former owner=us). The land (or us who is made from the dust of the land) now belongs to the Lord and it is most holy to Him. Jericho(including all men and woman) is said to be "devoted"(cherem) to the Lord. (read the Hebrew words translated as destruction in Josh 6:21). This is the same for all other cities the Israelites where sent to bring “judgment” by the “sword”. Basically, anyone that comes under the judgment because of sin like Jericho(like us in the past and the unbelievers that Jericho symbolizes), became devoted to the Lord, meaning became His possession and under His direct authority. Not that we weren't His posession before, but we claim to be "like god" and acted as if we could make the decisions on our own but we all miserably failed and sinned. Judgment puts us back under His authority. So how does this meaning of this word fit in context that Paul is speaking here about someone preaching another gospel that differ from what was given by Christ? To try to explain it briefly without digressing further, Paul was “devoting” (or putting) this person under the Lord's direct authority. In another word He was praying something like this "Lord, intervene in this person life and instruct him and discipline him if necessary to bring him to the truth". Being under Christ direct authority and teachings is not a bad thing. The discipline didn’t come from the body, but a member of the body(Paul) put the individual in the hand of the Lord to discipline.
Blessings
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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