Is it faith that saves us, or is it actually grace that saves us?

We are saved by grace through faith in God. Faith is not inherently salvific.

1) "We have received grace . . . for obedience". Rom 1:5.

2) "Let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably". Heb 12:28.

3) "We have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand". Rom 5:1.

4) "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast." Eph 2:8-9.

We are saved by Jesus Christ.

There is salvation in NO other.

Grace is the wealth of His mercy, His love in providing salvation.

Faith is a gift that helps us REALLY believe in Christ and this is manifest in our daily lives.

Save us from what?

What is grace? Titus 3:5-7; Isaiah 53:11

Titus 3:5-7 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Isaiah 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

In salvation there is God's part and man's part. God's part is His grace in providing salvation, man's part is faith to accept it. However, even faith is a gift of God.

The work of gaining salvation is one of copartnership, a joint operation. There is to be co-operation between God and the repentant sinner. This is necessary for the formation of right principles in the character. Man is to make earnest efforts to overcome that which hinders him from attaining to perfection. But he is wholly dependent upon God for success. Human effort of itself is not sufficient. Without the aid of divine power it avails nothing. God works and man works. Resistance of temptation must come from man, who must draw his power from God. On the one side there is infinite wisdom, compassion, and power; on the other, weakness, sinfulness, absolute helplessness. {AA 482.2}

God wishes us to have the mastery over ourselves. But He cannot help us without our consent and co-operation. The divine Spirit works through the powers and faculties given to man. Of ourselves, we are not able to bring the purposes and desires and inclinations into harmony with the will of God; but if we are "willing to be made willing," the Saviour will accomplish this for us, "Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ." 2 Corinthians 10:5. {AA 482.3}

We must learn of Christ. We must know what He is to those He has ransomed. We must realize that through belief in Him it is our privilege to be partakers of the divine nature, and so escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. Then we are cleansed from all sin, all defects of character. We need not retain one sinful propensity. . . . {AG 235.4}

As we partake of the divine nature, hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong are cut away from the character, and we are made a living power for good. Ever learning of the divine Teacher, daily partaking of His nature, we cooperate with God in overcoming Satan's temptations. God works, and man works, that man may be one with Christ as Christ is one with God. Then we sit together with Christ in heavenly places. The mind rests with peace and assurance in Jesus. . . . In Him there is inexhaustible fullness. {AG 235.5}

The Answer is neither , allow me to explain.

Faith and Grace are indeed God's outreaching to mankind. However mankind must respond. How? But doing their part to accept these invitations.

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17)

This cannot be more plain-we are dead if we have not works along with faith.

"For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.." (Hebrews 10:26)

Grace cannot do anything and is worthless, if we continue to sin.

Bottomline-- God has put out His hand to reach us with His divine grace and love, yet if we hold ours back ( continue to sin or neglect to do corresponding works) we turn away His offer and are not saved.

We are dead if we have not works along with faith?

That is not quite what James is saying.
He is saying our FAITH is dead if IT doesn't have works.
Of course without living faith our spiritual life is dead as well.

But faith is not something apart from works.
It is LIVING FAITH-- that connection of trusting and walking with Christ-- that brings forth genuine, godly works (character transformation).

For works without faith is also very dead, and is only an outward thing.

Ded-That is not quite what James is saying.
He is saying our FAITH is dead if IT doesn't have works.
Of course without living faith our spiritual life is dead as well

That is what I said. So if we say we have faith and doeth not corresponding works and we think we are saved in spite of it, it comes to not. Why? because we have not works.

They as one together commensurates the justification by faith.In other words , one without the other is --dead!

Saving grace is what empowers believers to experience saving faith - faith that works by love and purifies the soul. Jesus saves us from our sin debt of death and He saves us from sinning unto "righteousness and true holiness."

"By their fruits ye shall know them." Believers who are abiding in Jesus do not sin. They cannot sin while they are actively, consciously abiding in Jesus. Works without faith is sin. "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin." Genuine faith and godly works are inseparable while actively, consciously abiding in Jesus.


Not everyone takes Jesus at His words. There are people, however, who believe believers are born again incomplete ignorantly retaining and acting out many of the sinful habits they cultivated prior to experiencing rebirth. Neither the Bible nor the SOP support such an idea.

Mike, you seem to be obsessed with this topic.

Hopefully "obsessed" is a good thing. Believing sinning and repenting is normal and happens while abiding in Jesus nearly ruined me. It was the truth that set me free. Misunderstanding is toxic. "These things write I unto you, that ye sin not". Sinning is neither inevitable nor necessary. "For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." Making pardon possible is not the main reason Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh. A pardoned sinner is an unprofitable servant. Not until they "go and sin no more" is God's ultimate goal for them achieved.

The reason I created this thread is for the reason that I read somewhere else on the Internet that grace doesn't save, that only faith saves.

Saying faith saves and grace does not save assumes it is possible to have faith without grace. Grace is what makes faith possible. "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace". Rom 4:16. "For by grace are ye saved through faith". Eph 2:8.

Faith is the channel through which we receive grace. If your faith is in the wrong thing - e.g. self, flesh, etc. - you will die.

I think it is both.

Faith is often a cliche; thus not really experienced much by most. Paul defines it in Rom 10:17 quoted below.

The feasts and sacrifices defines what is grace and faith in the two works of Christ:

1 - Justification(Passover) : completed at the cross that paid our debt and impute on us His righteousness. This is actually what Paul's refers to when he said that we "are not under the law, but under grace." He got that from the definition of redemption found in Lev 25.

2- Sanctification(Pentecost) : the offering was 2 leavened(sin) loaves of wheat bread cooked in fire(Holy Spirit)(Lev 23:17). The bread is us, still with sin in us, needing the baptism of the Holy Spirit to stop the action of leaven. The fire represents the "fiery law"(Deut 33:2) that the Spirit speaks to us personally, to teach us righteousness by following His voice and disciplining us when we don't.


1st Work of Justification and Grace

The first work is a type of "grace" work, despite grace is as much part of the second work too.

Because His blood did pay our debt fully, that's why He "calls those things which be not as though they were." Rom 4:17 This is the basis of the gospel -- the Lord has declared everyone righteous. This righteousness is imputed unto us by Jesus' works at the cross; however it is still not actual. To bring this declaration in actuality rest on His 2nd work called sanctification.


2nd Work of Sanctification and Faith

The second work is where faith is defined. Paul defines as such "So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word(rhema, utterance) of God." Rom 10:17

At the time of the first Pentecost, Israel was at Sinai where the Lord descended, uttering His law by making His voice heard to all the people. The people were afraid "And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die." Ex 20:19

Yes hearing the Lord does "burn" the "flesh" by bringing our carnal nature to death. Cooking the leavened loaves is part of the process for the bread to become an acceptible sacrifice.

And so sanctification isn't possible without hearing the voice of the Lord for yourself, for only through hearing the fiery law that's when faith comes. Through His gracious discipline He also teaches us obedience. Actually obedience and hearing is the same Hebrew word shema. That's when it gets written on our heart tablets. Then that law becomes part of our nature and the works of it becomes natural.

That's how the imputed righteousness from the first work of Christ becomes reality in our heart through His second work of sanctification. Both works are done through the grace of Christ, but faith comes only from hearing.