Kland, what do you think? Did Jesus use nature in the quotes posted above to punish and/or discipline? Or, do you think God expect us to interpret the passages posted above to mean - Jesus permitted Satan to use nature to punish and/or discipline? "The LORD smote him in his bowels with an incurable disease."

Exodus
15:26 And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I [am] the LORD that healeth thee.

Deuteronomy
7:15 And the LORD will take away from thee all sickness, and will put none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which thou knowest, upon thee; but will lay them upon all [them] that hate thee.

Deuteronomy
28:58 If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD;
28:59 Then the LORD will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, [even] great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance.
28:60 Moreover he will bring upon thee all the diseases of Egypt, which thou wast afraid of; and they shall cleave unto thee.
28:61 Also every sickness, and every plague, which [is] not written in the book of this law, them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed.

So you do say Jesus didn't create disease.

But you say that satan manipulated things to cause disease to happen. Then you say that Jesus used what satan caused to hurt people?

MM, what do you think? Did Jesus slay Saul in the quote posted above to punish and/or discipline? Or, do you think God expect us to interpret the passages posted above to mean - Jesus ceased to protect Saul and permitted him to perish from his own choices?

Correct.


Jesus uses disease to punish and discipline.

Jesus slew King Saul by withdrawing His protection and permitting him to be wounded and to end his own life. Jesus could have intervened and prevented it from happening. But He choose not to. He worked to ensure things played out the way they did. The outcome was not left to fate or chance.

Kland, what do you think? Do the quotes posted above mean:

1) Jesus used nature to punish and/or discipline?

2) Jesus withdrew His protection and permitted self-acting nature to punish and/or discipline?

3) Jesus permitted Satan to use nature to punish and/or discipline?

I'd say we should view those quotes as you view the slaying Saul. Even though the Bible directly says God slew Saul, you say He withdrew His protection and permitted him to be wounded and to end his own life. Same here. We need to view similar places where it looks like Jesus is doing something "hideous", we need to see what really happened, to consider likewise how you say about what really happened with withdrawing protection from Saul.
Do you not see,
2 Kings 15:5 The LORD smote the king, so that he was a leper"
as the same thing as we read about Saul?
1Ch 10:14 And enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.


To say Jesus uses disease, which you say satan causes, to hurt people, to say Jesus kills and causes disease, death, and destruction is indeed a "hideous thing". It's as if you are saying Jesus is reliant upon satan to cause disease to happen and that Jesus and satan teams up together to hurt people. When someone gets disease, you yourself have no way of knowing whether Jesus caused it or satan did. This is absurdity!

And this you say about our Creator, our Redeemer, our Savior. Jesus did not come into the world to hurt people or kill them, but so that they may have eternal life, that the world may be saved through Him.

It is such a terrible, awful, and horrible thing for you to say Jesus causes disease. Have you no shame? You should be trembling before your Maker.

He's our lifegiver, not our destroyer.

Kland, I'm still not sure what you believe. Let's go through each text, one by one. What exactly did Jesus do in each case? I will insert 1, 2, or 3 from the following list that best explains what I believe Jesus did - 1) Jesus used nature to punish and/or discipline. 2) Jesus withdrew His protection and permitted self-acting nature to punish and/or discipline. 3) Jesus withdrew His protection permitted Satan to use nature to punish and/or discipline.

Ex 4:6 And he put his hand into his bosom: and when he took it out, behold, his hand was leprous as snow. 1) Jesus used nature to punish and/or discipline.

Ex 9:10 It became a boil breaking forth with blains upon man, and upon beast. 1) Jesus used nature to punish and/or discipline.

Ex 12:29 At midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt. 1) Jesus used nature to punish and/or discipline.

Num 11:33 The LORD smote the people with a very great plague. 1) Jesus used nature to punish and/or discipline.

Num 12:10 Behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow. 1) Jesus used nature to punish and/or discipline.

1 Sam 25:38 The LORD smote Nabal, that he died. 1) Jesus used nature to punish and/or discipline.

1 Kings 13:3 And his hand, which he put forth against him, dried up, so that he could not pull it in again to him. 1) Jesus used nature to punish and/or discipline.

2 Kings 5:27 And he went out from his presence a leper as white as snow. 1) Jesus used nature to punish and/or discipline.

2 Kings 15:5 The LORD smote the king, so that he was a leper. 1) Jesus used nature to punish and/or discipline.

2 Chron 21:18 The LORD smote him in his bowels with an incurable disease. 1) Jesus used nature to punish and/or discipline.

Acts 5:5 Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost. 1) Jesus used nature to punish and/or discipline.

Acts 9:18 Immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales. 1) Jesus used nature to punish and/or discipline.

Acts 12:23 The angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms. 1) Jesus used nature to punish and/or discipline.

Rev 16:6 They have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. 1) Jesus used nature to punish and/or discipline.

Rev 18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. 1) Jesus used nature to punish and/or discipline.

Same here? You'll need to explain. In the passages posted above no one was shot by an arrow and no one fell on a sword to kill themselves. For example:

And he put his hand into his bosom: and when he took it out, behold, his hand was leprous as snow. Ex 4:6.

No fatal arrow wound. No falling on a sword to commit suicide. What happened in this specific case? What role did Jesus play? What role did Satan play? Another example:

Immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales. Acts 9:18.

Again, no fatal arrow wound. No falling on a sword to commit suicide. What happened in this specific case? What role did Jesus play? What role did Satan play?

PS - You wrote - "I'd say we should view those quotes as you view the slaying Saul." Are you sure? Look a little closer. I doubt you agree with what I said. In particular - "He worked to ensure things played out the way they did."