You're unwillingness to address the objections to your view of justice and judgment is unproductive. It would serve you better to answer the objections in a kind, loving, meaningful way. Ignoring them as if they are unworthy is not going to make them go away or make them invalid. Do the right and noble and honorable thing and address them.

She said exactly what you said.

Just to clarify. Sin doesn't cause sinners to suffer and die the first death or the second death (or the third death). It is the result of sinful choices that cause them to die the first death (i.e. cause and effect situations like ingesting unhealthy substances result in system failure and death, etc). It is illness, accident, or old age that kills them. But not so with the second and third deaths. Sinners will die the second and third deaths because Jesus will execute them in justice and judgment. Another important truth to bear in mind - Sinners would "live for ever" if Jesus granted them unlimited access to the tree of life. Obviously, therefore, sin does not kill sinners. But this does not mean lopping off their heads wouldn't kill them.


Jesus must execute them in justice and judgment for the simple reason it would be inhumane to leave them to destroy one another in angry fits of rage and war and battle. A knowledge of their sins cannot cause them to suffer and die like Jesus did because their hearts are as hard as stone, their conscience is seared as with a hot iron. If left to themselves, it could take years for them to finally destroy themselves to extinction. Such a thing would serve no purpose. Instead, it would prove God to be cruel and inhumane. No! Jesus must step in and end it properly. Which is exactly what He will do. He cannot leave to sin to kill them because sin cannot kill them.

PS - I didn't say all this because I don't think you believe it. I know you believe it. I said it to clarify fine points of truth.

D: The quotes only say those who cling to their sins, will perish. They won't exist anymore. They are good quotes to use for those who believe in the immortal soul.

Covered with infamy, they sink into hopeless, eternal oblivion. {GC 544.2}
Huh - they sink into hopeless eternal oblivion, what, by having flames thrown on their head so they are tortured by God not their own guilt?

D: They already died once showing that sin causes death. That has already been established by millions of funerals. Sin causes death. It's a fact.

The punishment that Christ came to save us from ultimately is not the first death, though sure, that is involved in the plan of redemption for ALL are brought forth from the first death, both the righteous and the wicked. It is the second death that He came to save us from.
“The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” [Romans 6:23.] While life is the inheritance of the righteous, death is the portion of the wicked. Moses declared to Israel, “I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil.” [Deuteronomy 30:15.] The death referred to in these scriptures is not that pronounced upon Adam, for all mankind suffer the penalty of his transgression. It is the “second death” that is placed in contrast with everlasting life. {GC88 544.1}

The Wage of Sin is death - the second death. EGW can not be more clear on this. EGW is also clear, God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. But you say, no, God is the active subject, God IS the destroyer. Green said it this way, "God is A destroyer". Satan is the author of sin and all its results. All its results, not God. Sin is the problem. Sin is the cause of all sickness, disease and death, not God. When the wicked die in the end, the whole universe will know that it is sin that pays it wage, death, not God. If Satan had been allowed to reap the natural consequences of his sin, he would have died, but the universe would not have understood that this is the natural result of sin. Christ's death demonstrated the results in Gethsemane and the Cross. Christ did not die the first death as you would like to believe, for the first death is NOT the ultimate penalty for sin. The second death is and EGW is very clear. Quote: The death referred to in these scriptures is not that pronounced upon Adam, for all mankind suffer the penalty of his transgression. It is the “second death” that is placed in contrast with everlasting life. {GC88 544.1} The second death is the wages of sin.

A large class to whom the doctrine of eternal torment is revolting are driven to the opposite error. They see that the Scriptures represent God as a being of love and compassion, and they cannot believe that He will consign His creatures to the fires of an eternally burning hell. But holding that the soul is naturally immortal, they see no alternative but to conclude that all mankind will finally be saved. Many regard the threatenings of the Bible as designed merely to frighten men into obedience, and not to be literally fulfilled. Thus the sinner can live in selfish pleasure, disregarding the requirements of God, and yet expect to be finally received into His favor. Such a doctrine, presuming upon God's mercy, but ignoring His justice, pleases the carnal heart and emboldens the wicked in their iniquity. {GC 537.1}

God has given in His word decisive evidence that He will punish the transgressors of His law. Those who flatter themselves that He is too merciful to execute justice upon the sinner, have only to look to the cross of Calvary. The death of the spotless Son of God testifies that "the wages of sin is death," that every violation of God's law must receive its just retribution. Christ the sinless became sin for man. He bore the guilt of transgression, and the hiding of His Father's face, until His heart was broken and His life crushed out. All this sacrifice was made that sinners might be redeemed. In no other way could man be freed from the penalty of sin. And every soul that refuses to become a partaker of the atonement provided at such a cost must bear in his own person the guilt and punishment of transgression. {GC 539.3}

APL, using your logic, Nadab and Abihu will suffer and die the second death twice. According to your view, there is no difference between how they died the first time and how they will die the second time - it is the same fire. So, resurrecting them and subjecting them to the same thing all over again serves no purpose. In fact, if it were true (which it is not) it would make God cruel and evil (which He is not).

The issue is the legal aspect sin and God's law.

APL says there is no legal issue.
His position is that God would break His own commandments were He to execute anyone.

What we need to determine is the legal aspect of sin and God's law.

It's very true that sin has been allowed to show the created universe the intrinsic value of God's laws, so they will see them as just, and not arbitrary rules to restrict happiness, but that they are the very basis of happiness, harmony, health and goodness. This history of sin has been allowed to show the horrific evil breaking God's laws plunges a world into.
All that is true.

But there is also a legal side to God's law and sin.
And it is this aspect that APL denies.

Dedication - how is sin a legal problem? Sin is a real problem. Is Sabbath keeping a legal matter? If so, please explain. Of course EGW in her writings does not take this approach of sin being a legal problem and in fact, quite the opposite. If you look at the published writings of EGW for the word legal, is does not paint a pretty picture. You make the claim there are legal issues, but what are they? Please, if it is so clear, tell us. Legal obedience is not what God is looking for. Legal religion will not answer for this age. Legal religion can never lead souls to Christ; for it is a loveless, Christless religion. The spirit of bondage is engendered by seeking to live in accordance with legal religion. A legal religion will always be a troublesome guest.

There is a clear distinction between the legal and moral aspects of redemption.
Justification is the legal aspect.
Sanctification is the moral aspect.

The Christian world tends to stress the "justification" and downplay the "sanctification" aspect.

While what we are meeting here, is a denial of the "justification" aspect in it's legal reality, and a focus ONLY on the sanctification aspect.

The problem in discussing this, is --
as soon as one presents the legal "Justification" side, they get jumped on as denying the "sanctification" side.

The "sanctification" is a vital part, for "justification" does NOT cover a willful life of sinning.


BUT hopefully we can look at the LEGAL side without immediately being accused of rejecting sanctification for that is NOT the purpose -- I fully uphold the need for sanctification.


1. Sin = guilt

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things so ever the law says, it says to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Guilt is a legal term.
It means one has committed a violation of a law.
The whole world (since all have sinned) is guilty before God.
To be "under the law" means the law is condemning you -- it shows you are guilty.

To be condemned by the law, is to be guilty, and every law (no matter how many intrinsic benefits it may give), if it is to be effective has penalties.


The apostle Paul heavily emphases the LEGAL aspect of salvation in his letters before he deals with the moral aspect, of forsaking sin. It was very important to him to get that legal aspect for justification point across.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

It is in vain to seek for justification by the works of the law. All must plead guilty. Guilty before God, is a dreadful word; but no man can be justified by a law which condemns him for breaking it.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

The biblical word justification is a juridical word relating to a court trial, judgment and law. It is the verdict of the Judge that the one tried stands righteous in the eyes of the law.


Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


Christ's death was made necessary by God's law if mankind was to be justified. It was the satisfaction rendered to the divine law on our behalf. That which God's law required He, Himself provided for us.

Gal. 3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us:

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Faith in Christ meeting the demands of the law is not seen as a means of setting aside the demands of the law but as a method of meeting them.


Paul often uses the word "logizomai" (impute, reckon, count) eleven times. Its meaning is obvious. The believer is credited with Christ's righteousness because Christ obeyed, even unto death, in the believer's place (Substitute) and in the believer's name (Representative).

Phil 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

This is all legal language -- legal transactions.

The law is broken.
We are guilty and under the condemnation of the law.
The broken law exacts a penalty.
Christ meets the demands of the law, both in obedience and in paying our debt to the law.
Justification -- no amount of law keeping can justify someone who is guilty of breaking the law.

James tells us
2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

The legal aspect is absolutely necessary for any real moral improvement to occur.

EGW confirms this --
Claim Christ's merits,
"Christ gives lesson after lesson in his school to teach us to learn to trust, not in our merits, but in the merits of Christ's righteousness. " ST Feb. 14, 1895
"When we feel condemned by the law, and come with humble, penitent hearts to God for pardon, Jesus, our Advocate, takes our sins, and imputes unto us his righteousness. We can look to a crucified and risen Saviour, and claim his merits. ST Jan. 1897


Only in light of the legal justification can true sanctification take place.

Unless we realize that justification honors and establishes the law (Rom. 3:31), we are not seeing the biblical doctrine of justification by faith.

The legal aspect can be compared the story of Christian in Pilgrim's Progress, travelling away from the City of Destruction, with a huge load (of sin) on his back. He almost drowned in the sea of despondency, but then, viewing the cross, the burden tumbled from his back. He was free! Justified! Now he can travel with thanksgiving and praise for his Savior, in newness of life. No longer a slave to sin but servant of righteousness.

The legal aspect frees us for righteousness.
We can reckon ourselves dead to sin, and alive to righteousness.
Reckoning it so is a legal aspect
Alive to righteousness is a moral aspect.

Because of Christ's legal work, we can be perfect in every growth stage of maturing into the fullness of a Christian life, as we walk with Christ and become more and more like Him in character.

It also answers the question
For God could not even spare His own Son when He took the guilt of the world upon Himself.
The demands of the law must be met.
And so the demands of the law will be met in the end, by those who chose to cling to their sins -- who would not surrender them to Christ.

While fair and "humane"
It is also the execution of justice demanded by the law.

A necessary action to uphold the law that is the very foundation of God's government.


"In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch—Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {DD 59.4}

Once again, APL, you are guilty of deliberately distorting what Dedication posted. You not fooling anyone. We see through your tactics. It is only hurting your cause and destroying your reputation. You cannot continue to accuse Dedication and hope to win friends and influence people.