My position is not the same as APL.
Yes, I agree with him that God is working to restore, while Satan is working to destroy, deceive and ruin.

That is a key point of truth.

I do not believe that it is God giving "life" to hurricanes and tornados, etc. True, He created the atmosphere, and there is a lot of power in even an atom, yet God placed them under physical laws that would never cause tornados or hurricanes if those laws were followed from the beginning-- but sinful men and fallen angels have taken the powers of nature meant for our good and turned them into means for destruction.
They are the result of SIN (transgressing God's laws)


My disagreement with APL is not concerning the source of evil in this world, in that I agree with him. My disagreement with him goes back further to a foundational point in which we disagree. And yes, it was shared in my previous posts on this thread. The role of the atonement, in which Christ took upon himself the penalty of treason against God's government. That penalty is death. The penalty of treason was assumed by the ONE Who created all things and without Him was nothing created. He would stand as surety for the human race.

By Christ doing so, all mankind was given a temporary justification -- a measure of life in which, with thanksgiving and gratitude to accept God's kingdom of life and grace with it's laws of liberty, and thus be granted eternal justification and cleansing fitting them for eternal life.
Or to choose to continue in the rebellious crowd who fight against God's law and establish upon themselves the charge of treason against God's kingdom of life. Which, according to Heb. 10:26-27, Christ's death cannot cover and thus they reap the penalty of treason upon themselves.


Our focus on the character of God should be on His restoring LOVE for us.
For this is the message -- come to Christ in faith and trust, claiming His merits and surrendering to His good and righteous will.




He calls us with the voice of love -- to flee from sin and its headlong dash to eternal destruction, and find refuge and life eternal in Him.

You did. You said nothing is self-acting. You said it only happens if God wants it to happen. You are the one saying that Jesus wills that tornados, hurricanes and rapes happen, but Jesus is empowering them.

No - God is NOT the cause of these things.

I think - can correct me if I'm wrong, is that Dedication is saying that in the end, God does execute the wicked, in justice. IF so, then yes, we do disagree. In the end, God lets sin play out to its full and natural consequence, and sinners are destroyed, fully and totally. The wages of sin is death, not execution by God. Sin pays its wage, sin when it is full grown, brings death. (quoting scripture)

Yes, Christ took on sin and condemned sin in the flesh, and yes, He demonstrated that natural results of sin in Gethsemane and the Cross, and God did not touch Him!

You are implying, then, that nature is self-acting, that the laws of nature, not Jesus, is what empowers nature to act. No laws are broken when things like tornadoes and hurricanes happen.


Jesus permits evil men and evil angels to use the forces of nature as weapons of destruction - "according to His will." But they are not the ones who empower nature to act. "Nature is not self-acting; it is the servant of its Creator." "Nature in her work testifies of the intelligent presence and active agency of a Being who moves in all things according to His will." He is the source of its power to act - not evil men, not evil angels, not the laws of nature.

Jesus also uses the forces of nature as weapons of destruction.


There is nothing "evil" about Jesus employing the forces of nature to punish and destroy sinners. True, it is "strange" - but it is not "evil".

I quoted the SOP "nature is not self-acting" - I did not say "nothing is self-acting." You are distorting the facts.

Jesus willingly permits evil men and evil angels to cause death, disease, and destruction within the limits He Himself establishes. However, He works to ensure evil men and evil angels do not exceed the limits He is willing to allow. Evil men and evil angels are not free to exceed His limits. Nothing happens without His permission. When things happen it is because Jesus willingly permits it - which is not the same as saying Jesus "wants" it to happen. Circumstances force Him to cause, command, or permit things to happen He wishes could be prevented.

You agree with these insights.

"The wages of sin is death" - not a lifetime of sinning and repenting and gradually dying after a long, lingering first death. "In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Death "instead of being immediately visited upon the transgressor, should be transferred to . . . the Son of God." {1SM 230.1} Jesus is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Thus death did indeed happen the day Adam and Eve sinned - just like God promised.

Jesus had to live, suffer, and die to pay our sin debt of death. Law and justice demanded it. God was not free to pardon and save sinners without satisfying the death demands of law and justice. A penal substitution was required. His life and death and suffering also serve to motivate sinners to confess and forsake their sins and to embrace Jesus as their Savior and Friend. But equally as important His death validates the just requirements of law and justice.

In the opening of the great controversy, Satan had declared that the law of God could not be obeyed, that justice was inconsistent with mercy, and that, should the law be broken, it would be impossible for the sinner to be pardoned. Every sin must meet its punishment, urged Satan; and if God should remit the punishment of sin, He would not be a God of truth and justice. {DA 761.4} Interesting - that is exactly what MM just said.

1) "Every sin must meet its punishment." True. Jesus was punished for the sins of the world. Not one sin was overlooked.

2) "If God should remit the punishment of sin, He would not be a God of truth and justice." True. However, Jesus was punished for the sins of the world. Not one sin was overlooked. Therefore, God is a God of truth and justice. He is also a God of mercy and compassion.

"The wages of sin is death" - not a lifetime of sinning and repenting and gradually dying after a long, lingering first death. "In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Death "instead of being immediately visited upon the transgressor, should be transferred to . . . the Son of God." {1SM 230.1} Jesus is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Thus death did indeed happen the day Adam and Eve sinned - just like God promised.

Jesus willingly permits evil men and evil angels to cause death, disease, and destruction within the limits He Himself establishes. However, He works to ensure evil men and evil angels do not exceed the limits He is willing to allow. Evil men and evil angels are not free to exceed His limits. Nothing happens without His permission. When things happen it is because Jesus willingly permits it - which is not the same as saying Jesus "wants" it to happen. Circumstances force Him to cause, command, or permit things to happen He wishes could be prevented. You agree with these insights.

Who punished Jesus?

Sinful Choices end up in Severe Consequences

In dealing with ones children you will see that parents often step in to stop consequences from happening and as a result the children think they can chose sin and avoid the consequences.

Kids skip school and don't do their homework, but teachers are not allowed to fail them????
Kids damage their neighbor's property, but parents quickly cover the cost.
Kids end up in situations that land them in jail, but parents quickly bail them out.
Those are just a few examples of parents intervening to avert the natural consequences of wrong choices.

Now there is a place for parents to protect their kids from consequences, for their role is to provide a safe environment for them to learn and grow, however if this is taken too far the results do not prepare a child for responsible behavior.

God is our Father -- He has stepped in time and time again to protect the human race from the full consequences of sin -- yet allows sins consequences to manifest themselves in hopes all will learn their only safety is in turning to Him.

Yet because sin has not yet manifest its full horror, people still think its not as bad as God says it is. A time is just ahead when God will withdraw His Holy Spirit more fully from the earth and consequence of sin will fully manifest themselves.

But God does not forsake His people -- he will deliver them.

The consequences of sin are real and cannot be avoided.
We already know --
spend more money than you make -- go bankrupt.

Skip work when you don't feel like working -- get fired.
Smoke and other health destroying habits -- loose your health.

Cut down all the trees over huge areas of land and plow as fields -- reap destructive winds and soil erosion.

According to Nation Geographic: The scientists say pollution from Asia is leading to stronger cyclones in the midlatitudes of the Pacific.
We can't be pumping all kinds of unnatural stuff into the atmosphere and into the water systems and expect things to continue as "normal" and then blame God for what happens.


Hosea 8:7 For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind:
Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.


God has given us the freedom to Choose,
However nobody is free Not to Choose,
"You Are Not Free to Choose the Consequences of Your Choice”.