Jesus took OUR sins upon Himself and reaped the consequences of treason against God's laws.

It was only by doing so that He could provide exemption to those who accepted Him to escape the consequences of treason against God's laws.

No matter how righteous (by the power of God) our actions may become, the fact remains, "we have all sinned and come short of the glory of God" and thus the consequences of treason against God would still stand against us, unless our Creator, took upon Himself those consequences.

Part of Christ's healing ministry is to first remove the sentence against us, by taking it upon Himself, and then restoring our characters into joyful obedience to His laws of living, fitting us for heaven, and finally, at His coming restoring our bodies into incorruptible bodies that will live forever in His glorious kingdom.

Dedication - how about a simple, clear answer. How is the sentence imposed and by whom? Does God execute the sinner? Is that the consequence of sin?

This is one the best descriptions I've ever read. Jesus truly blessed you, Dedication, with these words. Thank you, Jesus.

Jesus was allowed to suffer the emotional anguish associated with the sins of the world. He felt as if He committed every sin from the first sin to the last sin (which also speaks to God's foreknowledge). One sin is enough to cause emotional heartbreak and death. Jesus felt the accumulated anguish of the sins of the world. He tasted, consumed, and conquered the cup of woe and trembling and then He laid down His own life. He did not die the second death. He tasted it and defeated it. Satan will die with our sins and second death in the lake of fire.

Jesus did not suffer in the exact same way the resurrected wicked will suffer in the lake of fire. Nor will the resurrected wicked suffer like Jesus did on the cross. The difference between the two is as vast as the difference between God and humans. Read the description of Jesus' sufferings and death on the cross and compare it to the description of the resurrected wicked's suffering and death in the lake of fire - there is very little comparison.

Even though Jesus Christ "felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race" (DA 753) the difference between the two is so vast as to make comparison impractical if not ludicrous. Hardened sinners cannot come close to suffering like Jesus did because their hearts are so hardened, so dead they are incapable of the feelings and anguish He endured. An unveiled knowledge of their sins in judgment is insufficient to cause the kind of suffering and anguish Jesus endured.


The glory of God does not consume the wicked.


Again, the glory of God does not consume the wicked.


Again, neither the glory of God nor an unveiled knowledge of their sins in judgment consume the wicked.


Again, neither the glory of God nor an unveiled knowledge of their sins in judgment consume the resurrected wicked. Instead, they are full of rage and employ their energy to fight among themselves.


Had Jesus not intervened the wicked would have slaughtered themselves in fits of rage and battle. Not until Jesus rains down fire from above and raises fire up from below do the wicked begin to suffer in duration and intensity in proportion to their sinfulness.

So, as you can read, there is very little comparison between the suffering and anguish of Jesus and the suffering of the resurrected wicked. To insist, therefore, that Jesus' experience from Gethsemane to Golgotha demonstrates what the resurrected wicked will experience in judgment and in the lake of fire is absurd and uninspired.

Christ (Who is fully God) Himself took our punishment.
As our Creator, the One Who made us, He gave his life, taking our sins upon Himself and paying the penalty for treason on our behalf.


John 10:15 As the Father knows me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
John 10:17 Therefore does my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
10:18 No man takes it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.

This He did because it was the only way.



There was no other way a God of love could find
To reconcile the world of a lost mankind
It took the death of His own Son upon a tree
There was no other way but Calvary

The wealth of all the world could not redeem us
Nor could our feeble works so great a price
Our only hope is in the blood of Jesus
The blood He shed for us in sacrifice

Did the Father execute the Son? NO
What killed the Son of God? Sin.
What kills sinners in the end? Sin.
How will they die? Just like Jesus died.

So here is one that thinks that God will EXECUTE sinners in the end. Funny how you read a book of symbols and make them literal. Here is an interesting fire. Song of Solomon 8:6-7 Place me like a seal over your heart, like a seal on your arm. For love is as strong as death, its jealousy as enduring as the grave. Love flashes like fire, the brightest kind of flame. 7 Many waters cannot quench love, nor can rivers drown it. If a man tried to buy love with all his wealth, his offer would be utterly scorned.

So are you saying the fire in the end is symbolic of love?

I suppose in one sense one can say that, as the sinners would be terribly miserable if God continued to give them life in a world where everything they used to love was forbidden. It would not be love to give them life in God's kingdom where they would be totally miserable.

Remember those who are lost, though experiencing anguish because they lost, are NOT sorrowing for their sins, if they could have taken the city and dethroned God they would have done so.

These last scenes show the utter "treason" in their hearts, as they march on God's city with the intent of dethroning God and taking over the city with Lucifer as their king.

They then realize it is hopeless and are greatly enraged and humbled by the loss, they are shown what might have been and thus loose the courage to fight further in taking the city, but they are NOT repentant, they are mad because they lost, and mad at each other for giving them false hope that they could win.

They do NOT WANT to be in God's kingdom, they do not love God's laws and ways, they want the kingdom for themselves, they want the power and life in sin and the city. They had hoped that Lucifer and the numberless army would be able to take the city.
Their remorse is the sorrow of someone facing the consequences of sin, not of one who feels sorrow for sin and longs for righteousness. Yes, they long for eternal life, but not eternal life in God's kingdom of righteousness.

Even in this world sin has consequences that aren't the natural result of the sin, but result because the laws of the land put criminals in jail etc. They are shown the true picture of their rebellion and treason and realize they are deserving of death.



But back to that supposedly "symbolic" fire --
No == that fire is NOT symbolic.
It is a very real fire. A tremendously powerful fire.

Now I could maybe believe that the vast army marching on God's city had, during their "preparation for war" period, manufactured a vast array of WMD and when they realized they had lost, in their rage (which we are told is very fierce) these were all ignited and caused the tremendous nuclear, atomic type of raging fire.

But there is no way I would believe that fire is "symbolic".
It is a literal fire that burns and cleanses the earth as well as the atmosphere around the earth.

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10.

It is true - there will be a fire that cleans up the chaff, and the whole earth will be cleansed. Isaiah 5:24 Therefore as the fire devours the stubble, and the flame consumes the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

Dedication, is it to hard for you to state clearly that God executes the sinner? You have danced all around this. You do appear to believe that and that God really is the cause of the death of the sinner, so perhaps we really do need to be afraid of God... Jesus came to save us from execution by God. Is that not what you are saying?

No that is NOT what I am saying.
We do NOT have to be afraid of God. We need to be afraid of our stupidity in thinking sin brings life and happiness.

Jesus and God the Father are in One accord, any concept that One is saving us from the other is wrong thinking. They are totally united in the work of salvation.

No, God (Father and Son and Holy Spirit) is not the cause of anyone's death. Sin, not God is the enemy. Sin means death and we've all earned that sentence for ourselves. God has poured out all of heaven to save us from the eternal death. There is no need for anyone to die the eternal death, for Christ opened up the door to heaven for us so we can have life through Him.


We should never fear God in the sense of thinking of Him as someone who wants to destroy us -- for He longs to save us, and has done so much to make that possible. We need to trust Him and depend upon Him and praise Him for His awesome grace and love and all He has done so we need NOT die the eternal death but have eternal life with Him in his glorious eternal kingdom!

In Christ is life. He came that we might have life!



The problem is this -- God (that is God the Father and the Son) need to deal with the sin problem in more ways than just the healing of sin torn characters (though this is an important part).

Treason (rebellion against our Maker and sustainer) must be dealt with.

Now if a person thinks of sin as only bad mistakes that lead to bad consequences, they may think God harsh in taking measures of justice against it. But if a person realizes how malicious and evil sin really is they would not question God's justice against it. They see God as the One Who delivers from evil.

In Gethsemane and Calvary, Christ's heart was literally broken -- and this didn't result from sin alone, His agony came from His sense of God's offense to the sin He carried (our sins which He bore).



God's love had not changed, but justice was hiding that love. The "sword of justice" impartial, was falling upon Christ in Gethsemane.

We need to understand that God the Father and Son were working together and suffering together and what was done needed to be done so human beings could receive justification.



The justice of the law demanded the death of the sinner. This was paid by the Creator -- this justice was not just ordered by God the Father, it was something both Father and Son knew was necessary to be able to forgive the repentant transgressors of the law, yet still uphold the authority of the law.

Who will execute judgment in the end?

The same One Who died to give us life and salvation, is the One Who will execute judgment in the end.

The One Who loved each of us so much that He was willing to go through all that agony so we can have life, is the One Who determines Who has accepted that gift and Who has rejected it.

It is at His second coming that the righteous receive the glorious reward, caught up in the clouds to be forever with Him, praising Him for the marvellous love that grants for them eternal life, while those Who rejected Him will perish that same time, and the earth be left desolate.


At the third coming, it will be Christ sitting on the throne raised high above the city walls as everyone who has ever lived is gathered either inside or outside the city.

"in a voice that reaches the assembled multitudes of the righteous and the wicked, He (Christ) declares: "Behold the purchase of My blood! For these I suffered, for these I died, that they might dwell in My presence throughout eternal ages." And the song of praise ascends from the white-robed ones about the throne: "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing." Revelation 5:12. {GC 671.1}

ALSO

It is Christ "that pronounces sentence upon the rebels against His government and executes justice upon those who have transgressed His law and oppressed His people." GC 666