APL, you dismiss as symbolic the description in the GC quotes I posted above. But the fire that God will rain down and raise up is very literal. It punishes and consumes the wicked before they kill one another. The revelation of their sins in judgment will not kill them. Nor will it cause them to suffer the emotional anguish Jesus suffered. Sin cannot kill or cause emotional anguish in hearts hardened beyond hope. They would live forever if they were granted access to the fruit of the tree of life, that is, if they could avoid murdering one another - which is highly unlikely. In either case, it would not be sin that kills them. Which is why Jesus cannot, in justice, standby and allow the wicked to use their weapons or hands to kill one another. It would be inhumane. Jesus will execute punishment - not sin, not self, not Satan, not the forces of nature. The Bible is clear about it:

Exodus
12:12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I [am] the LORD.

Psalm
119:84 How many [are] the days of thy servant? when wilt thou execute judgment on them that persecute me?

Psalm
149:7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, [and] punishments upon the people;
149:8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;
149:9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.

Jeremiah
23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
33:15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.

Ezekiel
5:15 So it shall be a reproach and a taunt, an instruction and an astonishment unto the nations that [are] round about thee, when I shall execute judgments in thee in anger and in fury and in furious rebukes. I the LORD have spoken [it].
5:16 When I shall send upon them the evil arrows of famine, which shall be for [their] destruction, [and] which I will send to destroy you: and I will increase the famine upon you, and will break your staff of bread:
5:17 So will I send upon you famine and evil beasts, and they shall bereave thee; and pestilence and blood shall pass through thee; and I will bring the sword upon thee. I the LORD have spoken [it].

John
5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Jude
1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Revelation
16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous [are] thy judgments.
18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Revelation
19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which [sword] proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Revelation
20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.
20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Nothing and no one killed Jesus. He conquered the second death and voluntarily laid down His own life. He died the first death as evidenced by three facts - 1) He was alive when He cried, It is finished, 2) He is alive now, and 3) the Scapegoat will die with our sins and second death in the lake of fire.

Also, the resurrected wicked will not suffer and die like Jesus did. That is impossible. The following post makes it clear.

Dedication - God Sin cause the death of the wick or does God cause the death of the wicked? You have quoted that God execute justice - AMEN. But what does that mean? That He kills sinners in the end?

What killed Christ? SIN

A few quotes to keep in mind: "God destroys no man." "..the solemn truth that it was sin that caused death." "God destroys no man; but after a time the wicked are given up to the destruction they have wrought for themselves." "I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way:" "We are not to regard God as waiting to punish the sinner for his sin. The sinner brings the punishment upon himself." (and it does not need to be inflicted on the sinner, that is intrinsic with sin) "His own actions start a train of circumstances that bring the sure result. Every act of transgression reacts upon the sinner, works in him a change of character, and makes it more easy for him to transgress again. By choosing to sin, men separate themselves from God, cut themselves off from the channel of blessing, and the sure result is ruin and death." "Since it is impossible for God, consistently with His justice and mercy, to save the sinner in his sins, He deprives him of the existence which his transgressions have forfeited and of which he has proved himself unworthy. Says an inspired writer: 'Yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.' And another declares: 'They shall be as though they had not been.' Psalm 37:10; Obadiah 16. Covered with infamy, they sink into hopeless, eternal oblivion. Thus will be made an end of sin, with all the woe and ruin which have resulted from it."

MM would have us believe that the death of Christ is not in kind to the death of a sinner in the end. But is this true? What killed Christ? SIN. What kills sinners in the end? SIN. EGW: "The death we deserved was suffered to come upon him." To be sure, it was far worse that sinners will suffer for he suffered for all of our sin.

NO, He did not. The first death is not the penalty of sin. I think this is one of your most amazing claims. Right there with God causing disease, sickness and death.

What killed Christ? SIN
True, our sins, in a sense we killed Him -- for it was for our sins He died.

But He also felt the wrath of God against sin, as I quoted in a previous post.

The problem is that you ASSUME everything will play out the same in the end as it played out against Christ at the cross.

But that is an assumption.

When Christ approaches the earth the second time, coming with all His angels, there will still be a lot of people alive on this earth --

The leaders of the earth with their armies will be there probably shooting rockets and other missiles to stop this huge approaching object. Revelation 19 shows them trying to fight against His coming, trying to stop His coming, but all the wicked die that day, while the righteous are caught up to meet Jesus in the air.

True, it's because of sin and their rejection of salvation that the unsaved all die that day, Christ died for each one of them offering them a chance for life -- they didn't need to die, in that sense indeed their chose to remain in sin destroyed them, but the direct physical cause of their death ON THAT DAY is directly related to Christ's coming.

They are very much alive and active as Christ is approaching the earth, but all end up dead.




The living wicked will be slain by the very coming and presence of Christ at the second coming.

Many die from the terrible earth quake, the hailstones and the other convulsions of the earth as all nature is turned upside down and in total commotion as Christ approaches. And those who survive those catastrophes die by the very brightness as if hit by lightning.


It is Christ's coming that ends all human (and animal) life on this earth.

His coming closes the curtains on life on earth for 1000 years. (except satan and his demons who are left in the ruins)

The Second coming is also NOT the end of sinners. All of they will be raised again. And at the second coming, not all sinners will be killed because many have ALREADY died. The second coming is not the end.

As for the "assumption", EGW tells us plainly that Christ died the death of a sinner. And is that death the first death? Nope. So yes, Christ's death does tell us how sinners will die.

The death referred to in these scriptures is not that pronounced upon Adam, for all mankind suffer the penalty of his transgression. It is the “second death” that is placed in contrast with everlasting life. {GC88 544.1}

In consequence of Adam's sin, death passed upon the whole human race. All alike go down into the grave. And through the provisions of the plan of salvation, all are to be brought forth from their graves. “There shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust;” [Acts 24:15.] “for as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” [1 Corinthians 15:22.] But a distinction is made between the two classes that are brought forth. “All that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” [John 5:28,29.] They who have been “accounted worthy” of the resurrection of life are “blessed and holy.” “On such the second death hath no power.” [Revelation 20:6.] But those who have not, through repentance and faith, secured pardon, must receive the penalty of transgression,— “the wages of sin.” They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, “according to their works,” but finally ending in the second death. Since it is impossible for God, consistently with his justice and mercy, to save the sinner in his sins, he deprives him of the existence which his transgressions have forfeited, and of which he has proved himself unworthy. Says an inspired writer, “Yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be; yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.” And another declares, “They shall be as though they had not been.” [Psalm 37:10; Obadiah 16.] Covered with infamy, they sink into hopeless, eternal oblivion. {GC88 544.2}

Covered with infamy, they sink into hopeless, eternal oblivion.

Not sure why you are changing the subject.

Of course Christ took our sins, our punishment and died so we need not die the eternal death. That has been the point of the thread -
God doesn't want us to fear Him as someone eager to see anyone experience the eternal death (or miss out on the second coming) because He has done everything possible to save us from eternal death and offer us eternal life.

We need to fear our own deceitful hearts that lead us to sin, and learn to abhor sin as we contemplate the price God paid to free us from the bondage of sin and give us eternal life. He WANTS us to LIVE, to be the people He created us to be -- pure and holy and enjoy eternal life with Him.

However -- you (APL) seem to think that no act of God would ever end the life of the rejecters of His mercy.

But at the second coming it is those who are alive but who have rejected God's gift of salvation and cleansing, choosing rather the ways of sin that will die. Their probation will be closed -- those who miss out at the second coming have sealed their eternal fate, even though they will demonstrate more fully after the 1000 years that God's judgment concerning their character was correct.

My post was pointing out that at Christ's coming it is a day of judgment, on that day those living and clinging to sin will die. It will be a day when judgment is executed. Yes, there is another judgment later, (it is not yet the second death for them) but the second coming is a very awesome and world shattering event when all God's faithful who have ever lived receive their glorious new bodies and meet Christ in the air, but there will be many alive on earth who rejected His mercy and they will die that day. And their death is directly related to the event of His coming as pointed out in the previous post.

Seems we went round and round on this one before.
The problem is we like to put things into neat little packages, close them and not see the full picture.


The first death is a penalty for sin.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
1 Cor 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.



What do those verses mean?
It's simple really --
The first death WAS the final death.
If Christ had not come and died and risen again, thus breaking open the locked prison house of death, then all who were in their graves were perished.

CHRIST TURNED THE FIRST DEATH WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN THE ETERNAL DEATH, INTO A SLEEP DEATH FOR WHICH THERE IS A RESURRECTION.

If Christ had sinned (which He did not) but if He had sinned, He would not have risen from that tomb. His death would have been eternal. And everyone else's "first" death, would have been eternal.

In this sense Christ EXPERIENCED the pangs of facing the eternal death. Not because of His own sin (He had no sin) but because of the sins of the whole human race placed upon Him.
Christ feared that these sins upon Him were too great for Him to ever rise again. In His human state he could not see the possibility of rising again. He could not see beyond the tomb. But He trusted in His Father even though it appeared like the end -- an eternal separation from His Father -- eternal death.

So -- Christ EXPERIENCED the torment of facing the second, or eternal death, but His actual death was the first death which up to that point in time WAS the eternal death.

But death could not hold Him -- He rose again!!!
By going through this experience He broke the locked doors of the first death, and all will rise again!

We don't have to be afraid of death -- for all in Christ will rise again to eternal life -- Just like Jesus did!

But those who reject Christ's gift of life will also rise again, but this time there is no substitute for the death before them -- they must pay it themselves and it is eternal.

Some of the wicked will experience a third death - those who come up in the special resurrection to witness Jesus' Second Advent. They will die a second time. When Jesus returns the third time, He will raise them up and they will die a third death. The difference between the first and second (and third) deaths is duration. The first death (and the second for some) is temporary. They will be raised to life. However, not so with the second death (the third for some) - it is eternal.

Jesus tasted, consumed, and conquered the judgment experience the wicked will suffer when they stand before God during the Great White Throne judgment. Law and justice was satisfied - before He voluntarily laid down His life and took it up again. Jesus did not yield up His life until after He accomplished the work which He came to do, until after He drained the dregs of the cup of woe and trembling.

"Christ did not yield up His life till He had accomplished the work which He came to do, and with His parting breath He exclaimed, "It is finished." John 19:30. The battle had been won. His right hand and His holy arm had gotten Him the victory. As a Conqueror He planted His banner on the eternal heights. Was there not joy among the angels? All heaven triumphed in the Saviour's victory. Satan was defeated, and knew that his kingdom was lost. {DA 758.1}

The Scapegoat, not the Lord's Goat, dies with the sins of the saved and with their second death (the first death for some) in the lake of fire. His death does not make atonement for the sins of the saved. Jesus satisfied the just and loving demands of law and justice when He drained the dregs of the cup of woe and trembling.

Also, Jesus experienced emotional anguish unlike the wicked will experience it. There is no way we can compare the two different experiences. The GC quote above makes it clear the difference is as vast as the difference between God and man. Hardened sinners are incapable of suffering emotional anguish like Jesus did. Unlike Jesus, when they revisit their sins in judgment it has an affect upon them totally unlike the affect it had upon Jesus.

Revisiting their sins in judgment does not cause them to suffer emotional anguish like Jesus did. That is impossible. Their hearts are hardened beyond it. Instead of breaking their hearts, it infuriates them, causing them to turn upon their deceivers intending to tear them to pieces. But Jesus intervenes. He rains down fire from above and raises fire up from below - a global, seething lake of lava and oil and unquenchable fire. Sinners will suffer in duration and intensity proportionate to their sinfulness.

It is fire that punishes them and eventually consumes them - not the radiant light of God's person and presence, not an unveiled knowledge of their sins, not revisiting their sins in judgment. Otherwise, they could live forever if Jesus granted them access to the tree of life. Their sins cannot extinguish the life in them because they are impervious to its effects. Their conscience is seared and untouchable.

Why did you exclude the my supporting quote? Did the death of Christ make it possible for us to avoid the first death???? NOPE - not for most of the human race. Again - is the the death that Christ suffered just the first death? The death referred to in these scriptures is not that pronounced upon Adam, for all mankind suffer the penalty of his transgression. It is the “second death” that is placed in contrast with everlasting life. {GC88 544.1}

Yes, are are raised because of what Christ did. But not all are saved.

OK - is this experience inflicted on the wicked? By WHOM? Did the Father inflict this on the Son?

I agree they will not change, BUT - EVER KNEE will bow, EVERY TONGUE will confess. God will be vindicated - by all.