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Re: What does it mean to "fear"? [Re: dedication] #171905
02/19/15 01:02 AM
02/19/15 01:02 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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APL, you agree with my summary of your beliefs.

Re: What does it mean to "fear"? [Re: Mountain Man] #171906
02/19/15 01:07 AM
02/19/15 01:07 AM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, you agree with my summary of your beliefs.
Yawn


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What does it mean to "fear"? [Re: Mountain Man] #171911
02/19/15 02:07 AM
02/19/15 02:07 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Yawn!

Oops! My comment was posted in the wrong thread. My bad.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Some of the wicked will experience a third death - those who come up in the special resurrection to witness Jesus' Second Advent. They will die a second time. When Jesus returns the third time, He will raise them up and they will die a third death. The difference between the first and second (and third) deaths is duration. The first death (and the second for some) is temporary. They will be raised to life. However, not so with the second death (the third for some) - it is eternal.

Jesus tasted, consumed, and conquered the judgment experience the wicked will suffer when they stand before God during the Great White Throne judgment. Law and justice was satisfied - before He voluntarily laid down His life and took it up again. Jesus did not yield up His life until after He accomplished the work which He came to do, until after He drained the dregs of the cup of woe and trembling.

"Christ did not yield up His life till He had accomplished the work which He came to do, and with His parting breath He exclaimed, "It is finished." John 19:30. The battle had been won. His right hand and His holy arm had gotten Him the victory. As a Conqueror He planted His banner on the eternal heights. Was there not joy among the angels? All heaven triumphed in the Saviour's victory. Satan was defeated, and knew that his kingdom was lost. {DA 758.1}

The Scapegoat, not the Lord's Goat, dies with the sins of the saved and with their second death (the first death for some) in the lake of fire. His death does not make atonement for the sins of the saved. Jesus satisfied the just and loving demands of law and justice when He drained the dregs of the cup of woe and trembling.

Also, Jesus experienced emotional anguish unlike the wicked will experience it. There is no way we can compare the two different experiences. The GC quote above makes it clear the difference is as vast as the difference between God and man. Hardened sinners are incapable of suffering emotional anguish like Jesus did. Unlike Jesus, when they revisit their sins in judgment it has an affect upon them totally unlike the affect it had upon Jesus.

Revisiting their sins in judgment does not cause them to suffer emotional anguish like Jesus did. That is impossible. Their hearts are hardened beyond it. Instead of breaking their hearts, it infuriates them, causing them to turn upon their deceivers intending to tear them to pieces. But Jesus intervenes. He rains down fire from above and raises fire up from below - a global, seething lake of lava and oil and unquenchable fire. Sinners will suffer in duration and intensity proportionate to their sinfulness.

It is fire that punishes them and eventually consumes them - not the radiant light of God's person and presence, not an unveiled knowledge of their sins, not revisiting their sins in judgment. Otherwise, they could live forever if Jesus granted them access to the tree of life. Their sins cannot extinguish the life in them because they are impervious to its effects. Their conscience is seared and untouchable.

Jesus experienced emotional anguish unlike the wicked will experience it. There is no way we can compare the two different experiences.

Re: What does it mean to "fear"? [Re: dedication] #171914
02/19/15 03:34 AM
02/19/15 03:34 AM
dedication  Online Content OP
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The first death is a penalty for sin.
There is no denying that fact.
Christ came to break open the grave of the first death and made possible the resurrection.

Quote:
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
1 Cor 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.




What do those verses mean?

It's simple really --
Without Christ the first death WAS the final death.
If Christ had not come and died and risen again, thus breaking open the locked prison house of death, then all who were in their graves were perished. There was no hope of resurrection.

CHRIST TURNED THE FIRST DEATH WAS THE ETERNAL DEATH, INTO A SLEEP DEATH FOR WHICH THERE IS A RESURRECTION.

If Christ had sinned (which He did not) but if He had sinned, He would not have risen from that tomb. His death would have been eternal. And everyone else's "first" death, would have been eternal.

In this sense Christ EXPERIENCED the pangs of facing the eternal death. Not because of His own sin (He had no sin) but because of the sins of the whole human race placed upon Him.
Christ feared that these sins upon Him were too great for Him to ever rise again. In His human state he could not see the possibility of rising again. He could not see beyond the tomb. But He trusted in His Father even though it appeared like the end -- an eternal separation from His Father -- eternal death.

So -- Christ EXPERIENCED the torment of facing the second, or eternal death, but His actual death was the first death which up to that point in time WAS the eternal death.

There would have been no need for "a second death" IF Christ had not conquered the first death. For the first death would have been eternal death for everyone. The second death is the ETERNAL death -- there is NO RETURN from that death.



But death could not hold Him -- Christ rose again!!!
Do you believe Christ rose again??

By facing death and experiencing the anguish of feeling it would be eternal due to sins placed upon Him, He broke the locked doors, the deadly reality of the first death for everyone -- and all will rise again!

We don't have to be afraid of death -- for Christ opened that door, and all will live again! All in Christ will rise again to eternal life -- Just like Jesus did! Never to die again.

Those who reject Christ's gift of life will also rise again, but this time there is no substitute for the death before them -- they must pay it themselves -- the second death is eternal -- there is no return.

Re: What does it mean to "fear"? [Re: Mountain Man] #171915
02/19/15 04:29 AM
02/19/15 04:29 AM
dedication  Online Content OP
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Joined: Apr 2004
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Yawn!

Jesus experienced emotional anguish unlike the wicked will experience it. There is no way we can compare the two different experiences.


Agree -- there are BIG differences:

Jesus had an intimate, very close relationship with His Father.
The wicked have no real love for God.

The separation from His Father caused by the burden of sin placed on Jesus, caused our Lord terrible anguish. Christ's keenest anguish was a sense of His Father's displeasure. His mental agony because of this was of such intensity that man can have but faint conception of it.
This was the chief cause of His (literal) broken heart.

The wicked will not feel that anguish over separation from God.
They have no desire to be with God in His righteous kingdom, following His ways.

Jesus abhorred sin, bearing it was like having all the garbage of the world dumped upon Him -- a terrible, loathsome load.

The wicked will have no real regret for their sin, they are only in distressing sorrow because they realize they have lost all. They do have a vivid experience of God's displeasure for sin.

The main point where there is similitude between Christ's suffering and the suffering of the lost in the end, is facing the reality that this is the END.
For Christ, He experienced that anguish because the sins of the world seemed to Him to make it impossible that He would rise again, it seemed impossible that He would ever be with His Father again, or that His sacrifice would be acceptable.
But there was still the intellectual knowledge that He would rise.

For the unsaved at the end, they will experience the anguish realizing they have forfeited eternal life, and that they will cease forever to exist. They sense the displeasure of God for their sins. For them at that time there is no more hope.

But totally UNLIKE Christ when plagued with thoughts of hopelessness, instead of committing themselves to God, (as Christ did) they respond to their hopelessness in rage and violence.

In mercy God ends it all -- wipes the world clean of all traces of sin and creates a new heaven and a new earth for all those Who responded to His grace and mercy and transforming power.

Rather than argue as to just how the wicked die in the end, (for we all agree they do die) --

It would be so much more profitable to focus on what Christ has done that we may live forever with Him.

That is the gospel -- the GOOD NEWS -- Christ has done so much that we may live! May none of us, or our loved us miss out at the second coming, and may we all with joy ascend with Christ to His Father's house -- on such the second death has no power.

Re: What does it mean to "fear"? [Re: dedication] #171916
02/19/15 06:44 AM
02/19/15 06:44 AM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
“The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” [Romans 6:23.] While life is the inheritance of the righteous, death is the portion of the wicked. Moses declared to Israel, “I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil.” [Deuteronomy 30:15.] The death referred to in these scriptures is not that pronounced upon Adam, for all mankind suffer the penalty of his transgression. It is the “second death” that is placed in contrast with everlasting life. {GC88 544.1}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What does it mean to "fear"? [Re: dedication] #171920
02/19/15 04:47 PM
02/19/15 04:47 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Dedication, we are in agreement. Thank you for sharing.

Re: What does it mean to "fear"? [Re: dedication] #171921
02/19/15 04:57 PM
02/19/15 04:57 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
APL, the idea that sin will eventually consume and destroy the wicked after Jesus resurrects them is not supported in the Bible or the SOP.

Quote:
Every eye in that vast multitude is turned to behold the glory of the Son of God. With one voice the wicked hosts exclaim: "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord!" It is not love to Jesus that inspires this utterance. The force of truth urges the words from unwilling lips. {GC 662.2}

The glory of God does not consume the wicked.

Quote:
Now Christ again appears to the view of His enemies. Far above the city, upon a foundation of burnished gold, is a throne, high and lifted up. Upon this throne sits the Son of God, and around Him are the subjects of His kingdom. The power and majesty of Christ no language can describe, no pen portray. The glory of the Eternal Father is enshrouding His Son. The brightness of His presence fills the City of God, and flows out beyond the gates, flooding the whole earth with its radiance. {GC 665.1}

Again, the glory of God does not consume the wicked.

Quote:
As soon as the books of record are opened, and the eye of Jesus looks upon the wicked, they are conscious of every sin which they have ever committed. They see just where their feet diverged from the path of purity and holiness, just how far pride and rebellion have carried them in the violation of the law of God. The seductive temptations which they encouraged by indulgence in sin, the blessings perverted, the messengers of God despised, the warnings rejected, the waves of mercy beaten back by the stubborn, unrepentant heart--all appear as if written in letters of fire. {GC 666.2}

The whole wicked world stand arraigned at the bar of God on the charge of high treason against the government of heaven. They have none to plead their cause; they are without excuse; and the sentence of eternal death is pronounced against them. {GC 668.2}

Again, neither the glory of God nor a knowledge of their sins in judgment consume the wicked.

Quote:
Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God's justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged. The spirit of rebellion, like a mighty torrent, again bursts forth. Filled with frenzy, he determines not to yield the great controversy. The time has come for a last desperate struggle against the King of heaven. He rushes into the midst of his subjects and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury and arouse them to instant battle. But of all the countless millions whom he has allured into rebellion, there are none now to acknowledge his supremacy. His power is at an end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them. {GC 671.2}

Again, neither the glory of God nor a knowledge of their sins in judgment consume the resurrected wicked. Instead, they are full of rage and employ their energy to fight among themselves.

Quote:
"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

Satan's work of ruin is forever ended. For six thousand years he has wrought his will, filling the earth with woe and causing grief throughout the universe. The whole creation has groaned and travailed together in pain. Now God's creatures are forever delivered from his presence and temptations. "The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they [the righteous] break forth into singing." Isaiah 14:7. And a shout of praise and triumph ascends from the whole loyal universe. "The voice of a great multitude," "as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings," is heard, saying: "Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth." Revelation 19:6.

Had Jesus not intervened, the wicked would have slaughtered themselves in fits of rage and battle. Not until Jesus rains down fire from above and raises fire up from below do the wicked begin to suffer in duration and intensity in proportion to their sinfulness. Otherwise, if they had access to the tree of life they could live forever. Sin cannot consume and destroy them because their conscience is seared.

Re: What does it mean to "fear"? [Re: dedication] #171924
02/19/15 07:26 PM
02/19/15 07:26 PM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Read this comment on another forum:

Emma El Badawy, a Middle East expert from the University of Exeter, told Sky News: “Burning someone alive is absolutely barbaric and it is expressly forbidden in Islam.”

So, these extremist Muslims are barbaric for doing it.

The Medieval Catholic Church was cruel, revolting and Satanic for doing it.

But we applaud God for doing it.

Go figure.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What does it mean to "fear"? [Re: dedication] #171928
02/20/15 12:35 AM
02/20/15 12:35 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Islamic Jihadists withdraw their protection and permit innocent women and children to be murdered. But when God does it, APL says - God respects free choice.

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