read the quotes I posted THAT is what I am teaching.

Ded-There are ONLY two paths -- ONLY TWO classes and that is scriptural.

No one is arguing that. There are the "Wheat and the Tares", the "Sheep and the Goats" the ones with the "wedding garments and without them". etc.

Ded- But is GLL saying there are other classes and other ways? Is he saying there are more ways to eternal life?

No, there is just two classes--the saved and unsaved, plain and simple. we don't have to get difficult here.

Ded- What then is GLL's third option???? -- Is it to perfect yourselves in our own strength and thus get to enjoy an earthly "peaceful" kingdom over there in Palestine with a human "antitypical David" as king and have all nations flowing to you for salvation --
all prior to the second coming of Christ?

You are mis-informed. I am saying that , as was quoted, we have a responsibility in choosing life. In other words, as the quotes show.For example--

"It is left with us to remedy the defects in our
characters, to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement."

Who is it left with?

Notice the serious duty that is placed upon us. We have to do the remedial work. YES, it is by the Holy Spirit that we are empowered, but Inspiration shows here and elsewhere that a great responsibilty rests with us.

In Dedication's "two ways" explanations, I did not see any self responsibility and only a reliance on Christ to "do it all". Bringing this out so that the people see that her post was not covering the other important aspect to salvation- self responsibility.

"1) Come to Christ NOW and receive His gift of salvation, freedom from sin, accept His cleansing ...

Now some would read this and think He "cleanses" upon our acceptance of Him and stay that way until, as she says "And at His coming joyfully rise to meet Him and exclaiming, This is my God! My Friend, my Savior." But as the many quotes show it is our co=partnership work along with His that "cleans" us up.

Lastly, I would add that acceptance of Christ, initially, does give us a clean slate from the past. But the future rest upon us, in co-partnership with Him.

Strange -- in one thread I'm accused of legalism because I stress obedience to ALL of God's commandments, on this thread I'm accused of cheap grace, because I say we must come to Christ for our forgiveness, cleansing and a renewed life and that God loves us enough to work in and through and with us to do what it is impossible to do for ourselves -- that is to present us perfect before the throne of grace.

What conclusion can I reach?

The story of the two ditches -- people trying to pull us off the road into either of those two ditches and get our focus off Christ and unto ourselves.

If we are left to ourselves to cleanse ourselves from sin, we are ALL LOST, including you!
Yes, it is left to us to CHOOSE to surrender our sins, and we want to do so to bring glory to God, as it's only through His power that we gain the victory.

But never can we leave
Christ out of the equation --

EGW: The man who attempts to keep the commandments of God from a sense of obligation merely--because he is required to do so--will never enter into the joy of obedience. He does not obey.

Keeping the comments because you are LEGALLY required to do so, is actually not keeping the commandments. The Jews of Christ day "kept" the Sabbath. But did they really? And they kept the correct day! No confusion as to man-made datelines.

"Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven." Matthew 6:10.

The will of God is expressed in the precepts of His holy law, and the principles of this law are the principles of heaven. The angels of heaven attain unto no higher knowledge than to know the will of God, and to do His will is the highest service that can engage their powers. {MB 109.1}

But in heaven, service is not rendered in the spirit of legality. When Satan rebelled against the law of Jehovah, the thought that there was a law came to the angels almost as an awakening to something unthought of. In their ministry the angels are not as servants, but as sons. There is perfect unity between them and their Creator. Obedience is to them no drudgery. Love for God makes their service a joy. So in every soul wherein Christ, the hope of glory, dwells, His words are re-echoed, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart." Psalm 40:8. {MB 109.2}

Only those that are obedient to the law will be admitted into heaven. But it is not a LEGAL problem what needs to be solved. It is a real problem. Sin is what we need to fear, not God. Christ came to save us from our Sins, not from execution by God. We have no reason to fear God. The Father is exactly as Jesus has shown Him to be.

Yes, you have clearly presented the truth about putting sin away and living in harmony with the truth as it is in Jesus.

I assume you believe the "amazing fire" came from God in the Most Holy Place. I doubt you believe it came from Satan in the Most Holy Place. Although I also doubt you will ever confirm your belief one way or the other.

So, if my assumption about your belief is true - You believe "amazing fire" came from God in the Most Holy Place and somehow caused the deaths of Nadab and Abihu. However, I suspect you believe the "amazing fire" somehow allowed sin to cause their deaths.

Naturally, then, it makes me wonder - What do you believe about fire and the cause of death in the following stories:


So, what do you believe about fire and the cause of death in the stories posted above? I am pretty certain you are not going to answer my question or attempt to explain the stories. Most likely you will post the Ministry of Healing quote that says - "Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the Restorer."

However, this quote does not explain the fire or the cause of death. You believe sin is what causes sinners to suffer and die. But that doesn't explain the fire or what part it played (if any) in the deaths quoted above. It would be nice if you explained what you believe about the fire and the cause of death.

Do you believe the quote from MH? If you did, then you'd be open to understand the truth about the character of God. God is not the executioner of the sentence against transgression. What is the sentence? The second death.

This will be long and who knows, maybe my last response to you MM. You'd like that!!

What experience did the most righteous men in the Bible have when they came into the presence of God? The immediate presence of God is tortuous to some, but not because He is a literal fire that burns up flesh. God has no hostility towards any of his rebellious children. This is rather describing a psychological discomfort that involves intense guilt and shame as sinful and selfish individuals enter into the presence of a God who is selfless love personified.

Isaiah 6:1-6 It was in the year King Uzziah died that I saw the Lord. He was sitting on a lofty throne, and the train of His robe filled the Temple. 2 Attending Him were mighty seraphim, each having six wings. With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they flew. 3 They were calling out to each other, "Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of Heaven's Armies! The whole earth is filled with His glory!" 4 Their voices shook the Temple to its foundations, and the entire building was filled with smoke. 5 Then I said, "It's all over! I am doomed, for I am a sinful man. I have filthy lips, and I live among a people with filthy lips. Yet I have seen the King, the LORD of Heaven's Armies." 6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a burnin
g coal he had taken from the altar with a pair of tongs.

Notice that Isaiah did not exclaim, "God, you are so bright and hot that I am burning up!" No. Isaiah saw the beautiful glory and goodness of God and by contrast saw with an intense clarity his own sinfulness.
His lips were touched with a burning coal, but notice again the symbolism involved as the coal was not harmful to his flesh:

Isaiah 6:7-8 He touched my lips with it and said, "See, this coal has touched your lips. Now your guilt is removed, and your sins are forgiven." 8 Then I heard the Lord asking, "Whom should I send as a messenger to this people? Who will go for us?" I said, "Here I am. Send me."

The intense shame and guilt experience by Isaiah is what God described to Moses with these words:

Exodus 33:20 But you may not look directly at My face, for no one may see Me and live."

God was not saying, "If you look at My face, I’ll kill you!" Rather, God is saying, "In your state of rebellious separation from My kingdom of other-centered love, the full face-to-face exposure to My goodness and love is actually harmful." The destructive element of beholding God face-to-face does not come from God, but rather from within the sinner. It is intrinsic to the sinful condition.

Moses saw the glory of God at the burning bush. But were the leaves of the bush consumed? God’s fiery presence apparently does not burn leaves.

Exodus 24:16-17 And the glory of the LORD settled down on Mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it for six days. On the seventh day the LORD called to Moses from inside the cloud. 17 To the Israelites at the foot of the mountain, the glory of the LORD appeared at the summit like a consuming fire.

Was the mountain top burned up? Was there any forest fire?

God’s glory also filled the tent in the wilderness, but is there ever a record of the sheets spontaneously bursting into flames?

Job also saw God in all his glory, and like Isaiah he was acutely aware of his own guilt:

Job 42:5-6 In the past I knew only what others had told me, but now I have seen you with my own eyes. 6 So I am ashamed of all I have said and repent in dust and ashes.

Nadab and Abihu

"Aaron's sons Nadab and Abihu…disobeyed the LORD by burning before Him the wrong kind of fire…So fire blazed forth from the LORD’s presence and burned them up, and they died there before the LORD. Then Moses said to Aaron, ‘This is what the LORD meant when He said, 'I will display My holiness through those who come near Me. I will display My glory before all the people.’ And Aaron was silent. Then Moses called for…Aaron’s cousins…He said to them, ‘Come forward and carry away the bodies of your relatives from in front of the sanctuary to a place outside the camp.’" Leviticus 10:1-4

If you were Aaron’s cousins and were given the command to carry them outside the camp, what would you predict would be left of their bodies? What would you predict would be left of their clothes?

Read on!

So they came forward and picked them up by their garments and carried them out of the camp, just as Moses had commanded." Leviticus 10:5

Is there a more righteous saint in the Bible than Daniel? But yet, his experience in the presence of God had this effect:

Daniel 10:5-10 I looked up and saw a man dressed in linen clothing, with a belt of pure gold around his waist. 6 His body looked like a precious gem. His face flashed like lightning, and his eyes flamed like torches. His arms and feet shone like polished bronze, and his voice roared like a vast multitude of people. 7 Only I, Daniel, saw this vision. The men with me saw nothing, but they were suddenly terrified and ran away to hide. 8 So I was left there all alone to see this amazing vision. My strength left me, my face grew deathly pale, and I felt very weak. 9 Then I heard the man speak, and when I heard the sound of his voice, I fainted and lay there with my face to the ground. 10 Just then a hand touched me and lifted me, still trembling, to my hands and knees.

The friends that Daniel was with fled in panic, while Daniel is described as acutely aware of his own sinfulness, "…my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength." Daniel 10:8

What does the angel immediate tell Daniel? "God loves you!" Daniel 10:12

Before His rebellion, Lucifer flourished in the presence of God’s glory:

"I ordained and anointed you as the mighty angelic guardian. You had access to the holy mountain of God and walked among the stones of fire." Ezekiel 28:14

"The stones of fire" is describing the very presence of God and the sinless Lucifer dwelt unharmed with his Creator. But notice very carefully the description of Satan’s destruction just a few verses later:

Ezekiel 28:18 You defiled your sanctuaries with your many sins and your dishonest trade. So I brought fire out from within you, and it consumed you. I reduced you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching.

The destructive element in God’s presence does not emanate from God, but rather from within the sinner. The destructive "fire" that will end of the life of Satan comes from within his own selfish and rebellious heart.

Read Isaiah:

Isaiah 33:11-15 You Assyrians produce nothing but dry grass and stubble. Your own breath will turn to fire and consume you. 12 Your people will be burned up completely, like thornbushes cut down and tossed in a fire. 13 Listen to what I have done, you nations far away! And you that are near, acknowledge My might!" 14 The sinners in Jerusalem shake with fear. Terror seizes the godless. "Who can live with this devouring fire?" they cry. "Who can survive this all-consuming fire?" 15 Those who are honest and fair, who refuse to profit by fraud, who stay far away from bribes, who refuse to listen to those who plot murder, who shut their eyes to all enticement to do wrong-

This passage is describing the fear and dread that the wicked experience in the presence of God who appears to them as "the consuming fire" and the "everlasting burning". They ask, "Who of us can dwell with the everlasting burning?" But notice that the reply comes that "He who walks righteously and speaks what is right" can dwell in the presence of God!
This passage in Psalms also describes the two classes of people that will one day stand in God’s presence:

Psalms 68:2 Blow them away like smoke. Melt them like wax in a fire. Let the wicked perish in the presence of God.

For some, God’s presence is tortuous; for others it is a place of great joy and happiness. Malachi again shows this:

Malachi 4:1-2 The LORD of Heaven's Armies says, "The day of judgment is coming, burning like a furnace. On that day the arrogant and the wicked will be burned up like straw. They will be consumed-roots, branches, and all. 2 "But for you who fear My name, the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing in His wings. And you will go free, leaping with joy like calves let out to pasture.

When the fire of God is understood in this way, both heaven and hell are seen to be the same place. That is, both heaven and hell are a Person. For some, it is heaven to dwell in the presence of Love Personified; for others, it is hell.

God's love is very hot.

Song of Solomon 8:6-7 Place me like a seal over your heart, like a seal on your arm. For love is as strong as death, its jealousy as enduring as the grave. Love flashes like fire, the brightest kind of flame. 7 Many waters cannot quench love, nor can rivers drown it. If a man tried to buy love with all his wealth, his offer would be utterly scorned.

John describes the individuals who will stand in the presence of God this way:

1 John 2:28 And now, dear children, remain in fellowship with Christ so that when He returns, you will be full of courage and not shrink back from Him in shame. 1 John 3:2 Dear friends, we are already God's children, but He has not yet shown us what we will be like when Christ appears. But we do know that we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He really is.

The central characteristic of God’s friends in the last generation is that they will see God as he really is. That is, they are fully settled in the picture of God that Jesus came to bring and by beholding the true God it is an unavoidable natural consequence that we are changed into His image:

2 Corinthians 3:18 So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord. And the Lord-who is the Spirit-makes us more and more like Him as we are changed into His glorious image.

EGW:

"This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is ‘alienated from the life of God.’ Christ says, ‘All they that hate Me love death.’ Ephesians 4:18; Proverbs 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them." {DA 764}

"We are not to regard God as waiting to punish the sinner for his sin. The sinner brings the punishment upon himself. His own actions start a train of circumstances that bring the sure result. Every act of transgression reacts upon the sinner, works in him a change of character, and makes it more easy for him to transgress again. By choosing to sin, men separate themselves from God, cut themselves off from the channel of blessing, and the sure result is ruin and death." {Letter 96, 1896}

"God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown." {GC 56}

"Could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God" {GC 542, 543}.

Now that is quite a report APL. God is working brother.

Thank you so, so, so much for explaining what you believe in such detail. "I suspect you believe the 'amazing fire' somehow allowed sin to cause their deaths." I feel pretty good about correctly guessing what you believe. Like an explosion that occurs when two chemicals come in contact, I hear you saying resurrected sinners will die during judgment when their sins and the unrestrained love of God come in contact.

An emotional fire of guilt and shame will cause them to suffer in duration and intensity proportionate to their sinfulness and then cause them to die. Moses, Isaiah, the disciples, etc were able to survive in the physical presence of Jesus because He somehow prevented His love from interacting with the sins within them and causing them to suffer and die prematurely.

Again, thank you for explaining your belief. Knowing this helps me to further guess you believe the "fire" Jesus will rain down and raise up during the final judgment is symbolic of the same "amazing fire" you described above in detail.

However, knowing what you believe about "amazing fire" does not help me guess what you believe about the "fire" in the stories I posted above. I'm fairly certain you do not believe "amazing fire" was involved. Since you do not believe Jesus uses literal fire to kill sinners, I suspect you believe He permitted Satan or nature to use literal fire to kill the sinners in the stories I posted above. Is that close to what you believe about it?

APL's post has a lot of truth, however, as we've often seen in previous posts, it pulls EVERYTHING into that one aspect of truth, thus discarding other truth.

The aspect of God's holiness sharply contrasting with our sinful state is very true. Even Daniel, of whom no sin is recorded, felt totally unworthy in the presence of Christ, his goodness was turned into corruption (See Daniel 10:5-8). The purity of God's holiness is something a sinner cannot endure, especially one that is not cleansed by Christ's blood, and transforming power. A sinner cannot stand in the glory of God's presence and live. We must be cleansed.

However, I don't think we can place all those verses concerning fire as merely referring to the person's guilt brought on by being in God's presence?

It's true, every person who is destroyed in the final destruction will experience the full realization of their sinfulness, but is that the whole story or just one important part?

Doesn't the fire envelop the whole earth and burn like an oven burning up everything. Old buildings and all the garbage scattered over the earth do not have minds to realize their sinfulness. Even the rocks melt, the whole earth will burn like an oven. Very unlike Moses' burning bush, this fire will consume everything. It is a literal fire.

From what I read in GC, first the vast unsaved throng are shown in vivid detail the full magnitude of their sins, the full contrast between their selfish lives, and God's unselfish love for them. But they aren't burned up at that point. They acknowledge God's righteous judgments. Then they turn on each other in violence. And after that the fire comes down from heaven and destroys them all. And burns up all the pollution that sin has made upon the earth -- everything.

This fire isn't the "fire" of God's glory and holiness present within the city. A glory that has the appearance of fire.
The fire that cleanses the world at the final end, is a literal fire outside the city.

"As God preserved the ark amid the commotions of the Flood, because it contained eight righteous persons, He will preserve the New Jerusalem, containing the faithful of all ages, from righteous Abel down to the last saint which lived. Although the whole earth, with the exception of that portion where the city rests, will be wrapped in a sea of liquid fire, yet the city is preserved as was the ark, by a miracle of Almighty power. It stands unharmed amid the devouring elements (3SG 87).

Dedication, we are in agreement. I appreciate APL emphasizing the love of God. I wouldn't talk much about justice and judgment were it not for the fact I disagree with APL. I feel it is important to understand the truth about it. However, I would rather discuss - How to be like Jesus.