dedication - I have never denied there is a literal fire that cleanses the earth. You still can't bring yourself to answer if God will torture and execute the wicked. Can you state it plainly? If you did, you'd see that such an act is not in keeping with the Character of God and we would have a real reason to be afraid of what God will do to us. We also have Isaiah telling us that the wicked are dead before the fire that finally cleanses the earth.

And how about Satan, is the fire externally applied? Not according to Ezekiel. The fire comes from within. Ezekiel 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Ezekiel 28:18-19 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Isaiah 9:18 For wickedness burns as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke.

Isaiah 13:8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travails: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand on their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

It is interesting to read the SDABC on Isaiah 9:
Isaiah 9:18
Burneth as the fire. This is a striking description of the final effects of iniquity. Sin kills, but it does not heal. Wickedness burns and creates ashes and desolation, but it does not repair or build. Briers and thorns, fit only for destruction, symbolize the iniquity that prevailed among the people (see Isaiah 5:6; Isaiah 7:23-25; Isaiah 10:17; Isaiah 27:4; Isaiah 32:13). When the land became covered with a rank growth of brambles and briers that crowded out the good trees of the forest, then wickedness would break forth as a fire to consume itself. Sin would be punished; it would, in fact, bring about its own destruction (see Isaiah 33:11-12; Jeremiah 21:14; Joel 1:19-20; Hebrews 6:8). Thus the land would be left clear, ready for a new growth of wholesome verdure (see 2 Peter 3:10-13).

THE TRUTH - that message that we are to take to the world now, and message the is illuminating to the whole earth, is that of God's Character. Sin is what destroys the life of sinners, not God.

In final analyses APL still shows that God will end the sinners life. Thus all his talk that God would never take anyone's life, falls flat.

How could GLL, who firmly believes God does punish and destroy sinners, agree with APL who tells us God does NOT punish or destroy sinners, only sin itself kills them?

The reason I think, is because,
1)he doesn't understand APL's position, thus he missed those points in APL's post.
2) The last post by APL shows God's final punishment of the wicked, even though APL tries to make it look like it is only the sin, not any literal fire that destroys them. And he weaves in the truth that sinners cannot stand to live in the glory and holiness of God, and that they themselves have rendered themselves unfit to live in God's eternal kingdom.

But in the final end, APL's post does NOT confirm his premise, instead it still shows that it is God's fire that ends the sinner's life, by exposing them to a power source that they cannot live in.

Thus the same objections APL has to our belief, applies just as well to his own belief.

And yes, I agree MM -- they aren't destroyed by the revealing of their sins in the presence of God, they are just miserable and mad. The revelation of their sins and their rejection of Christ's saving power, is made to show them WHY they must die, it does not kill them. They realize they cannot conquer God's city, they realize they would be most miserable in God's kingdom. Yes, eternal life in God's kingdom would be "hell" for them in a figurative sense, they would be extremely miserable, and make everyone else miserable as well.

The important point in these last scenes is to reveal God's holy and loving justice in depriving them of eternal life. It is absolutely true that they themselves have rendered themselves totally unfit for eternal life in God's kingdom -- they chose the fleeting pleasures of a temporary worldly life, over the blessings of eternal life with God.

They acknowledge God is just in His verdict that they must die, but their hearts aren't changed, they have no sorrow for their sins, only regret that God won. If given life they would do all in their power to dethrone God, and take the city. They want life, yes, but not under God's rule. They had already spent the days or months of their extended, resurrected life preparing for war against God, to dethrone Him and take the city.

So God rains down fire from heaven and destroys them all.

Think for moment if He did not do that --
These unsaved people are violently attacking each other. Not only that, when they were resurrected, they were not resurrected with glorified bodies but with the sin ruined bodies they had before. These people all died a first death already, due to some cause in this sinful world, and now they have the same bodies they went into the grave with -- I don't think life would be all that pleasant for them, they would be suffering a slow lingering death already.

They want access to the tree of life-- it would give them healing and life, but God will not allow that.
Instead, with everyone, even the lost realizing and acknowledging God's righteous justice, their "extended resurrected life" ends, but worse -- they have lost out on eternal life.

Yes, it is because of their clinging to sin which totally unfitted them for God's eternal kingdom, it was their choice, God doesn't want anyone to be lost but provided salvation so they could be saved, if they choose to come to Him for forgiveness and cleansing from sin. But they choose not to, and now God does not leave them to kill off each other or slowly die again of whatever killed them in the first death-- He ends the whole sin mess, wiping all traces of sin from the earth by fire.

You argument against what I said, just broad statements... So, we really need to be afraid of what God is going to do to sinners. That is the bottom line of what Dedication is saying. Be afraid! Do you want us to believe it is euthanasia? Is that more comforting? It is not very good euthanasia if some "suffer" for days. That can only be described as torture, but not any longer that they deserve! And for what purpose is God going to torture? To warn the saved not to mess with God because He will kill you if you violate His law?

What makes sin so awful? Green (rest his soul where every he is) use to argue that sin was not that bad. After all, look how many people actually enjoy sinning. And it did not kill them, it was pleasureful. What makes sin so awful is that it destroys the sinner.

And so sin has done, all those resurrected ones before the white throne outside the city had previously lost their lives because of the effects of sin. They all died the first death.
Indeed sin destroys, it's malignant nature is terrible.

Yet there is another nature to sin -- it is HIGHLY deceptive. I doubt Green was saying sin was not all that bad, rather I assume he was saying that PEOPLE didn't see sin as all that bad, because they found pleasure in it, they reaped temporal benefits by sinning.
That is a key part of Satan's deceptions from the beginning -- he always painted sin as an advancement, not as a malignant evil.
The evil of sin isn't always apparent to the sinner himself. That doesn't make it less evil, but all the more dangerous, because the evil is for a time hidden under a covering of seeming profit.



It is Lucifer that has clothed sin in righteous looking garments filled with pleasure and the means for self advancement and gaining riches. He's the one who wants people to think God's laws are restrictive, and a hindrance to humanities advancement.

That's also why I think your view is dangerous.
Because it seems to be based on seeing benefits, rather than trusting in God that all true benefits are linked in obedience to His laws.
Satan is a master in confusing people as to what benefits them.

It's very true that God's laws are not arbitrary but the only path to true happiness, harmony, blessings, health etc, simply because to disobey brings the whole mess the world is in.

Yet, satan can provide a lot of benefits to those who disobey God's laws as well thus deceiving them.
True, his deceptions are just an appealing bait covering the deadly trap of sin, but 6000 years have shown the majority will take the bait thinking it is the way of happiness and advancement.

Most people don't even believe Lucifer is satan. To them satan is that red elf with the pitch fork, not that bright, shinning angel that can weave high sounding sentiments from scripture together to further his deceptions.

So yes, we need to obey God EVEN if we don't see any immediate benefits. You call that legalism, but it is really TRUST, and FAITH, believing in His goodness and trusting that His way is the best, even if it seems we will come to poverty or lose out on something we really want or love.

TRUST -- and FAITH
Abraham left his country and his home, not knowing where he was going because God asked him too, and he had faith, and obeyed, placing his life in God's hands, trusting Him.

No, it's not the bottom line.

The bottom line is to see the love of God in seeking to save and restore sinners.
Without His love, there would be NO LIFE, no hope, no future.

I don't understand why you want to paint God as a monster if He puts an end to sin, just so you can prove there are no LEGAL aspects to God's law.

If you want to be afraid of God, I feel sorry for you.
No matter how you want to picture it -- those who do not seek God and respond to His cleansing from sin, will be destroyed.
Your post agreed with that. And even in your description it's still God that destroys them by exposing them to some kind of fire coming from God that kills them.



How long they BURN? -- that argument you have with EGW whom you love to quote, but which you totally deny concerning those passages.

It seems by your theory those with the most heinous sins would be snuffed out immediately since it is sin itself that inflicts the penalty, and they would be filled to the brim with that combustible material, while those who have far lessor sins, would burn the longest, as they don't have as much combustible sin within themselves.

Seems there is far more justice in the way EGW describes it.




But as I said - your argument there is with EGW, not with me. I leave that in God's hands trusting that He knows what He is doing.


Let's accept God's love and goodness and let Him work in our lives, choosing to forsake sin, and find life in Him.
Perfect love casts out all fear.


1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear: because fear has torment. He that fears is not made perfect in love.
4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.
Gal. 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Do I deny these passages? Or do I put together with all that she says? She says, "God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself." But you say, NO - God HAS to destroy them. My argument is not with EGW, for when you put what she says about the end of the wicked all together, it makes sense, and God is not the executioner as you and most believe. You say sinners end in a fiery execution, that it is not a psychological torment on the part of the sinner. But if you include all the EGW says about the end, you need to include the following: Says an inspired writer: "Yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be." And another declares: "They shall be as though they had not been." Psalm 37:10; Obadiah 16. Covered with infamy, they sink into hopeless, eternal oblivion. {GC 544.2} Does that sound like a fiery execution? Or something else?

APL, I hate to say it, but your position is unbiblical. If it were biblical you would not have to work so hard to misrepresent what Dedication is saying about it. You draw absurd conclusions supposedly based on what she posted, but the simple truth is your observations are grievous distortions - bordering on lies and deceptions. All this hurts your position and tarnishes your reputation. You have shared a lot of good truths about the love of God - please don't undermine it by slandering Dedication and her posts.

You believe wherever "fire" is employed in the destruction of sinners it is either 1) symbolic of emotional anguish that ends in death, or 2) Jesus permitting evil angels to use literal fire to murder sinners. What you don't seem to realize is that even if you are right (which you are not) in either case Jesus is culpable (do not quote this sentence out of context) - keep reading. The reason they suffer and die is due to action taken by Jesus. He is in control - not sin, not self, not Satan, not nature.

Evil angels are not free to murder sinners. They do not decide who dies and who lives - Jesus does. If Jesus did nothing, if He did not give permission for sinners to be killed, they would go on sinning and sinning until accident, illness, or old age ends them. The reason they do not "live for ever" is clearly stated in the Bible - Jesus denies them access to the tree of life. If, as you incorrectly insist, sin kills sinners, God was dead wrong about why it was necessary to deny sinners access to the tree of life. The reason sinners do not liver forever is due to action taken by Jesus.

No rationale person would conclude symbolic fire caused sinners to die of emotional anguish in the stories I posted above. Nor would they conclude Jesus gave evil angels permission to murder them using literal fire. The stories are too plainly worded to believe such cunningly devised fables. If easy-to-understand stories like the ones I posted above require such convoluted logic to discern the truth, what is going to prevent people from using similar ideas to avoid taking God at His word in matters that require great faith - the virgin birth, Jesus' miracles, His mysterious death, His resurrection, etc?

I forget that are some on this forum that believe killing is right in these days by taking up arms and fighting for their country. Is their allegiance to their God or to they country? They live out their image of the god they worship. Romans 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God to salvation to every one that believes; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

It is a law both of the intellectual and the spiritual nature that by beholding we become changed. The mind gradually adapts itself to the subjects upon which it is allowed to dwell. It becomes assimilated to that which it is accustomed to love and reverence. Man will never rise higher than his standard of purity or goodness or truth. If self is his loftiest ideal, he will never attain to anything more exalted. Rather, he will constantly sink lower and lower. The grace of God alone has power to exalt man. Left to himself, his course must inevitably be downward. {GC 555.1}

The quotes only say those who cling to their sins, will perish. They won't exist anymore. They are good quotes to use for those who believe in the immortal soul.

However,
I really don't see how your position, saying that God raises the wicked only to show that sin in and of itself will cause their death AGAIN, is supposed to enhance Gods' character.

Why does God raise the wicked after the thousands years? What is the purpose? Is the purpose to prove that sin will cause them to die again?
They already died once showing that sin causes death. That has already been established by millions of funerals. Sin causes death. It's a fact.

Romans 5:12 by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life

Christ died to free us from the death that sin caused.
He opened the doors of the grave.

Because Christ, bearing the sins of the whole human race, died and rose again, all who have died because of sin will rise again.

Those who accepted Christ and are cleansed from sin, will rise in the first resurrection and live eternally.

And the wicked rise too -- at the end of the 1000 years.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.



Why are the wicked raised?
Is it to prove all over again that sin causes death? So God raises them just to watch them all die a long lingering death all over again?
No !

They are raised again to show that their sinful characters are INCURABLE, there is no hope that they will change.

The issue is --
Why does God forgive and give eternal life to some and not others?
For all have sinned, none can say they DESERVE life.
Why then are some given eternal life and not others?
And some of the saved, actually lived a very sinful life, and were converted near the end of their lives -- why were they saved, but some who SEEMED pretty good all their lives are among the lost?

Thus ALL will be resurrected. The ones that accepted Christ's cleansing blood and walked in faith filled obedience with their Savior for the remainder of their lives, Christ claims as His true followers during the IJ, and raises them in the first resurrection, for eternal life.

John 5:26 For as the Father has life in himself; so has he given to the Son to have life in himself;
5:27 And has given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

But the final judgment of damnation will not be executed until everything is done to show
that no mistake was made --
First God shows the saved, during the 1000 years, why their lost friends or loved ones aren't there.

At the end of the 1000 years the rest are raised. God is very thorough in showing all the living inhabitants of His creation why some are forgiven and saved and others not.

The wicked are raised, to show that indeed they are incurable.
They don't die the second death because they are in any type of sorrow because of their sin.
They are raised to show their true nature, and why they can't be given eternal life in God's perfect universe.

There will be period of time that they are alive again.
But they won't be out their repenting of their sins and in torment because of the guilt and seeking forgiveness and being denied forgiveness. It's not another time of probation, because there is no need for one. A lifetime of transgression has seared their conscience. They fully demonstrate that they aren't interested in obeying any requirements of God.

So what do they do with this restored gift of life and time? They spend it exciting rebellion against God.
They will be building war machines, and weapons, organizing for one great siege and battle in which they plan to take God's city and dethrone God !!!

They are resurrected to show that their characters are INCURABLE -- they have fought against God in their first life and will continue to fight against God in the restored life.

Yes, as they make their assault on the city, Christ's glory stops them, and they are shown what Christ did to save them and how they rejected His offers of mercy again and again.
Yes, they realize God is just in not giving them any more life.

And there will be anguish, but not because they want to serve God, not because they have sorrow for their sin; the anguish is that they can't get at the tree of life and have eternal life, too.

Yes, they desire eternal life.
The anguish is that they realize it is useless to fight and that they lost the battle against God.

All see that their exclusion from God's inhabited universe is just. By their lives they have declared: "We will not have this Man [Jesus] to reign over us." The accusations against the mercy and justice of God are now silenced.


(Read it in GC as well as well as in Rev. 2o)

It's only after thorough investigative and demonstration that they are INCURABLE, that God executes the final judgment.
And indeed they sink into eternal oblivion covered in infamy, and they will be no more.

Fire comes down, judgment is executed,

Why? -- because they are incurable.
And the time has come to make a clean end of all sin.
They were raised so all could see beyond any shadow of a doubt that they were incurably set on fighting against God, and could not be forgiven or saved and still restore peace and harmony in God's universe.


,

Ded- How could GLL, who firmly believes God does punish and destroy sinners...

The old saying is--"better to keep your mouth shut and be thought of as a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

"And the angel of the LORD went out and struck down 185,000 in the camp of the Assyrians. And when people arose early in the morning, behold, these were all dead bodies." (Isaiah 37:36)

"And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods." (Numbers 16:32)

Do I need to produce more? Why don't you state truth for once? God does indeed "destroy" the sinners, it is not "my opinion.". And He will soon do so with the wicked in the church.