Over and over the Bible testifies - God has and will execute justice and judgment. He does not, will not, leave it to sin, self, Satan, or nature to execute justice and judgment. He is the law-giver, therefore, He only He can execute justice and judgment. Holy angels praise God when He executes justice and judgment - they do not praise sin, self, Satan, or nature for executing justice and judgment.

APL uses the following types of quotations to prove Ellen White argued against the penal substitution view of atonement:

Dedication: There is a clear distinction between the legal and moral aspects of redemption.
Justification is the legal aspect.
Sanctification is the moral aspect.

EGW: My ideas concerning justification and sanctification were confused. These two states were presented to my mind as separate and distinct from each other. But are they? Many commit the error of trying to define minutely the fine points of distinction between justification and sanctification. Into the definitions of these two terms they often bring their own ideas and speculations. What is justification? As the penitent sinner, contrite before God, discerns Christ's atonement in his behalf, and accepts this atonement as his only hope in this life and the future life. This is justification by faith. This is not a mere legal adjustment, but a discernment of the character of God towards sinners. Through faith, the believer passes from the position of a rebel, a child of sin and Satan, to the position of a loyal subject of Christ Jesus, not because of an inherent goodness, but because Christ receives him as His child by adoption. A mere adjustment of one's legal standing is insufficient to make one a loyal subject. It is a realization of what God has done for us and the acceptance of this give and the placement of our trust in Him that brings justification and sanctification.

Speaking on sanctification and justification, EGW writes: A little girl once asked me, "Are you going to speak this afternoon?" "No, not this afternoon," I replied. "I am very sorry," she said. "I thought you were going to speak, and I asked several of my companions to come. Will you please ask the minister to speak easy words, that we can understand. Please tell him that we do not understand big words, like 'justification' and 'sanctification.' We do not know what they mean." Ellen writes in simple terms the following on justification and sanctification, justification is to "set right" and sanctification is "keep right". And how does this happen? The only way in which he could set and keep men right was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes. That men might have salvation he came directly to man, and became a partaker of his nature. The Father was revealed in Christ as altogether a different being from that which Satan had represented him to be.

The book of Romans tells us how this works. Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. We see in the death of Chris that God is not out to destroy us, to kill us. He is entirely different than what Satan has made Him out to be. We see God as a Father who loves us and whom we can put or total trust in. This is justification, this is setting us right. We are saved by His life, which is given to us for keeping us right, sanctification.

What is invariably denied is that salvation is in reality a healing process, not a legal process. Healing is spoken extensively though out the Bible. It is the ministry of healing, not the ministry of jurisprudence. The medical ministry is the right hand of the gospel. Why? Because it represents what God is trying to do. God is not out to destroy, but to restore. The gospel which He [Jesus] taught was a message of spiritual life and physical restoration. Deliverance from sin and the healing of disease were linked together. God is not a destroyer.

Jeremiah 17:14 Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved: for you are my praise.

Healing - Saving: Hebrew parallelism.

Jeremiah 3:22 "My wayward children," says the LORD, "come back to Me, and I will heal your wayward hearts." "Yes, we're coming," the people reply, "for You are the LORD our God. Jeremiah 30:17 I will give you back your health and heal your wounds," says the LORD. "For you are called an outcast-'Jerusalem for whom no one cares.'" Jeremiah 33:6 "Nevertheless, the time will come when I will heal Jerusalem's wounds and give it prosperity and true peace. Psalms 6:2 Have compassion on me, LORD, for I am weak. Heal me, LORD, for my bones are in agony. Psalms 30:2 O LORD my God, I cried to You for help, and You restored my health. Psalms 103:1-3 A psalm of David. Let all that I am praise the LORD; with my whole heart, I will praise His holy name. 2 Let all that I am praise the LORD; may I never forget the good things He does for me. 3 He forgives all my sins and heals all my diseases.

Dedication: Christ's death was made necessary by God's law if mankind was to be justified. It was the satisfaction rendered to the divine law on our behalf. That which God's law required He, Himself provided for us.
Galatians 3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangs on a tree: 1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

It is sin that kills, it is sin that destroys, that is the curse of the law. Christ came to save us from our sins, not to save us from a God who will execute those that do not love Him. Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and you shall call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

There is no disagreement concerning the sanctifying work in the life of the believer, the disagreement is in the part being denied, the legal aspect of justification, which is a vital part of understanding salvation.




As was mentioned, Paul very emphatically stressed the legal gift of justification, apart from the law, that was absolutely necessary for real sanctification to occur.

This legal part of salvation does not do away with the law, it establishes the law.

This legal part of salvation does not do away with the cleansing, restoration of the person, aspect, it makes the healing, cleansing aspect possible.



Ephesians 1:7 [Christ] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Forgiveness is justification and in the New Testament forgiveness is associated with faith in the blood of Christ.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ..Having predestinated us unto the ADOPTION of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He has MADE US ACCEPTED in the Beloved. In whom we have REDEMPTION THROUGH HIS BLOOD, the FORGIVENESS OF SINS, according to the riches of His GRACE.

Without a legal adoption there is no legal relationship with God. Before the relationship can begin, the law must be dealt with. The transgression of God's law separated us from God. Thus the legal barriers must be broken down before the personal love relationship pictured here as that of the parent with the child, may be established. Thus the LEGAL union of the adoption must precede the actual fellowship with the adopted child and the parent.


Paul shows that the definition of justification is FORGIVENESS.


Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a PROPITIATION through faith in His BLOOD, to declare His righteousness for the REMISSION of sins that are past, through the FOREBEARANCE of God; To declare, I say, at this time His righteousness: that He might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus... Even as David also described the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputes righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are FORGIVEN , and whose sins are COVERED."

Read Romans 3 in another translation, this one being Goodspeed:

Romans 3:23-29
23 For all men sin and come short of the glory of God,
24 but by his mercy they are made upright for nothing, by the deliverance secured through Christ Jesus.
25 For God showed him publicly dying as a sacrifice of reconciliation to be taken advantage of through faith. This was to vindicate his own justice (for in his forbearance, God passed over men's former sins)—
26 to vindicate his justice at the present time, and show that he is upright himself, and that he makes those who have faith in Jesus upright also.
27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is shut out. On what principle? What a man does? No, but whether a man has faith.
28 For we hold that a man is made upright by faith; the observance of the Law has nothing to do with it.
29 Does God belong to the Jews alone? Does he not belong to the heathen too? Of course he belongs to the heathen too;

What or how is being vindicated?

Forgiveness - - Does God hold anything against us? NO! Read the verse: 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The Greek word translated "forgive" is Apheimi. This word does not mean "forgive" in the sense we think of the word as in no longer holding something against another. In other words, it is not something the offended persons does, but what happens in the offender. The forgiveness in this verse is what is happening in the offender. The offender's sin is being sent away, removed, layed aside, they go into remission. This FORGIVENESS is not a LEGAL process at all, but a healing process.

But what is the result of ignoring the legal aspects of redemption and forgiveness?

To say transgression against God's law can simply be "laid aside" as if it never happened then one really ends up saying that the cross of Christ wasn't REALLY necessary.

If we could be saved simply by inviting Christ to come into our hearts to effect a moral healing process and that's all that is needed to be forgiven. Then Christ suffered in vain if God could save us simply by "sending sin into remission.

Of course we could say that Christ's sacrifice was merely a moral influence to inspire us to hate sin..

But Christ's sacrifice did far more than that --
Satan was defeated, His claims to hold all humanity captive were destroyed, death could no longer hold people captive, God's covenant was ratified, and redemption was accomplished.

Christ returned to heaven and was declared worthy to take the book of the covenant and implement that covenant, for He had ratified it with His own blood!

Rev. 5:9 Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;



And this act of condescending to the death on the cross, which is the central event of all history, and will be the theme of contemplation throughout eternity, was not an act done in us (moral), but was a work done outside of us, (legal) in our Substitute, the One Who created us, Who is fully God, and Who took His place as a Man representing the whole human race, the Person of Christ.


Christ's sacrifice was the satisfaction which Christ gave to the divine law on our behalf. It was the fulfilling of the terms of the legal covenant by our Representative in order that God could forgive sinners without setting aside the binding nature of divine law and justice.

"Justice demands that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed. God, in the gift of His only-begotten Son, met both these requirements. By dying in man's stead, Christ exhausted the penalty and provided a pardon. {AG 139.2}

Rejecting Christ's legal work of dealing with the sin problem is to take it upon ourselves to meet the legal requirements of justice of the law.

Legalism is BAD, not because it is legal in the sense of being law abiding and doing what is right, but because it is offering a counterfeit and thinking that will meet the approval of a Holy God.
The law requires perfect obedience. Adam could offer that to God prior to his sin, but after sin he was in transgression and NOTHING he could do, or any of us can do, (for all have sinned and stand guilty before God) will satisfy the high demand of God's law.
Sin can't just be pushed aside and forgotten.

Those who think it can, don't realize the true nature of sin.

Legalism is offering to the law less than it requires.

Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.
9:32 Why? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; (which is Christ, and His sacrifice)



It is when we look to Calvary and understand the holiness of God's law, (the holiness of His character) we are to realize that sin could not simply be set aside, but that the law requires PERFECT obedience for justification; It is then that we realize both the high demands of the law and that we have NOTHING to offer that will merit us heaven.

Without the legal aspect of Christ's sacrifice and crediting us with HIS righteousness we would sink into hopeless despondency. But Christ did satisfy the justice of the law for us, thus forgiveness is granted all who confess and repent of their sins.

The awesome holiness of God's law, which condemned us to death, no longer frightens those who have brought their sins to Jesus. Christ has taken the responsibility and penalty for our sins, and as we place our sins on our loving Savior and contemplate the scenes of the cross, we abhor those sins. We don't want to put anymore sins upon Him Who loved us. He has cleansed away our guilt and now we can "heal" in the true sense.




Romans 5:8 "But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by His BLOOD, we shall be saved from WRATH through Him. For if, when we were enemies, we were RECONCILED to God by the DEATH of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the ATONEMENT."

Here we see that God reconciled us while we were yet enemies. This shows us that LEGAL reconciliation of all the world is being referred to rather than personal reconciliation unto eternal life.
Opening heaven's door for all.

Hebrews 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holy places by the blood of Jesus,
10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;


By coming to Christ we are personally reconciled unto God through personal faith in Christ and repentance for our sins, thus we are then saved by His life, because we have now personally received the atonement for our sins, and as His children seek to bring honor and glory to His name.

The justice of law is fulfilled --

but what of those who decide to continue in sin? Or who seek their own righteousness instead

10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Only in the cross of Christ can we glory. His doing and dying have made possible our forgiveness and our personal reconciliation with God and enabled us to receive the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit to become partakers of the divine nature.

Where have I said that the death of Christ was not really necessary? You Can't show that and it is not true. The death of Christ was absolutely necessary.

Transgression of the law has real implications, not an imposed penalty. As I've said, I think it comes down to whether one sees God's Law as an intrinsic law or an extrinsic law. The intrinsic view sees the violation of the law, SIN, as having devastating effects on the sinner. Sin is a great evil. The extrinsic view has sin as a breaking of the rules, there is no or little inherent results from that, God has to impose a penalty for violation of the rules.

In the intrinsic view, the wages of sin is death, natural consequences. Sin, when it is full grown brings death, Romans 6:23; James 1:15. In the extrinsic view, the wages of sin is execution by God, an imposed penaly. Sin, when it is full grown, does not bring death by itself, but brings execution by God.

This has implications on how you view the death of Christ. You will take a sound byte such as: "Justice demands that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed. God, in the gift of His only-begotten Son, met both these requirements. By dying in man's stead, Christ exhausted the penalty and provided a pardon. {AG 139.2} and say see! Christ suffered the penalty for sin. What is the penalty for sin? Execution by God, the second death?" [I'm not sure you agree with EGW where she says the penalty for sin is the second death as compared to eternal life, not the first death.] Did God execute Christ? NO. Isaiah 53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. He was not smitten of God. We only thought He was. AND, if you keep reading you find out that by His death, we are not legal off the hook, but we are HEALED! Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was on him; and with his stripes we are healed. His death was abolutely necessary, not some moral influence which you would like to claim in my view.

God does not hold anything against us. He LOVES Satan and all sinners. If God be for us, who can be against us? While were sinners, Christ dies for us. Legal forgiveness is not what we need from God. We don't need Jesus to appease an angry God. We need healing of body, mind and soul. The first paragraph in the Ministry of Healing lays out Christ's mission. Where in this statement is there any legal talk? Our Lord Jesus Christ came to this world as the unwearied servant of man's necessity. He "took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses," that He might minister to every need of humanity. Matthew 8:17. The burden of disease and wretchedness and sin He came to remove. It was His mission to bring to men complete restoration; He came to give them health and peace and perfection of character. {MH 17.1}

The only way that Christ could set us right and keep us right, justification and sanctification, was to make God visible and familiar to our eyes. NOTE - that was EGW talking. Christ said, if you have see Me, you have seen the Father. All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! God does not hold anything against us. The extrinsic model makes God out to need appeasement. God is the real problem with sin, for sin does not cause death directly, God has to impose the penalty on sinners, sinners need a legal pardon. The Intrinsic model makes sin out to be the great evil that it is. The consequences of sin are inherent with sin. The sinner needs restoration, healing. The extrinsic model views justification as an adjustment of our legal standing. The intrinsic model view justification as the penitent sinner, contrite before God, discerns Christ's atonement in his behalf, and accepts this atonement as his only hope in this life and the future life. This is justification by faith. Is the atonement a legal process? Not according to EGW! The atonement of Christ is not a mere skillful way to have our sins pardoned; it is a divine remedy for the cure of transgression and the restoration of spiritual health. It is the heaven-ordained means by which the righteousness of Christ may be not only upon us, but in our hearts and characters. {Letter 406, 1906}

Dedication, I suspect APL has blocked my posts.


He clearly believes the atoning death of Jesus was not necessary to pardon and reinstate Lucifer. He believes ceasing sinning is all that was necessary for him to be pardoned and reinstated.

He also believes the only reason Jesus' death was necessary is because we are so sinful, so fallen that only His death could motivate us enough to cease sinning. Death is not necessary to satisfy the demands of law and justice. Law and justice and God merely demand that we cease sinning, which in and of itself is sufficient to guarantee eternal life.

He believes ceasing sinning is the pillar and foundation of salvation. To be saved, therefore, we need only cease sinning. God pardons our past sins because we cease sinning. Death is not needed or required to atone for our past sins. A substitute is not needed or required to pay our sin debt of death. All that is required to cancel, to undo, to neutralize our past sins is to stop sinning. God miraculously eliminates the natural, intrinsic effect of sinning and we do not die.


The truth is - transgressing the law results in cause and effect consequences. However, these effects are not the punishment God promised. He said, The day you sin is the day you die. Instant death was the penalty for sinning - not a long, lingering first death. But death did happen the day A&E sinned. Jesus is the lamb "slain from the foundation of the world." God's promise was fulfilled that very day. Jesus' death has been efficacious since the first sin. It is also why A&E did not die the instant they sinned, and the reason why we do not die the instant we sin.

If the cause and effect consequences of sinning is the penalty for sinning - there would be no need for God to resurrect them. In fact, it would make God cruel and inhumane to resurrect them because there is no hope for them and all they will do is suffer and die again for the exact same reasons. No good would come from resurrecting them if they already suffered the penalty for sinning.

The truth is - Sin does not kill sinners. Under the plan of salvation probation is provided and sinners are permitted to live a long life and then they die the first death - that is, if an accident or illness doesn't end them prematurely. Jesus had to ban access to the tree of life because regularly eating of the fruit would have enabled them to "live for ever" - additional proof sin does not kill sinners. Which is why during the execution of justice and judgment Jesus must rain down and raise up fire to punish sinners in duration and intensity proportionate to their sinfulness.

Christ's heart was pierced by a far sharper pain than that caused by the nails driven into his hands and feet. He was bearing the sins of the whole world, enduring our punishment,--the wrath of God against transgression. {YI, July 20, 1899 par. 10}

He who died for the sins of the world was to remain in the tomb the allotted time. He was in that stony prison house as a prisoner of divine justice. He was responsible to the Judge of the universe. He was bearing the sins of the world, and His Father only could release Him. A strong guard of mighty angels kept watch over the tomb, and had a hand been raised to remove the body, the flashing forth of their glory would have laid him who ventured powerless on the earth. {5BC 1114.1}

The fact that the redemption of man from the penalty of the transgression, required this wonderful sacrifice on the part of Christ, gives unmistakable proof of the unchanging nature of the law of God. {RH, May 6, 1875 par. 2}

Had Christ come with even the glory of the heavenly angels, His presence would have extinguished humanity. {BEcho, November 12, 1894 par. 3}

"Jesus bade the afflicted man stand forth, and then asked, "Is it lawful to do good on the Sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill?" It was a maxim among the Jews that a failure to do good, when one had opportunity, was to do evil; to neglect to save life was to kill. {DA 286.2}

APL believes Jesus withdraws His help and protection and permits evil men to kill innocent women and children. According to Jesus to do so makes Him a killer - "to neglect to save life was to kill."