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Re: Identifying the Kings of the North and South - Daniel 11 [Re: APL] #174634
06/26/15 02:22 AM
06/26/15 02:22 AM
His child  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
When does the time of trouble begin? AFTER the King of the North has come to his end.

Daniel 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which stands for the children of your people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time your people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

What do we look for which will be a guidepost as to what it happening in the Heavenly Sanctuary?



The Time of Trouble has begun as the Little Time of Trouble.
It is fast moving toward the Time of Jacob's Trouble.


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: Identifying the Kings of the North and South - Daniel 11 [Re: kland] #174635
06/26/15 02:29 AM
06/26/15 02:29 AM
His child  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: His child
Originally Posted By: kland
Quote:
[fearfulness about proclaiming what the word of God means before it happens]
Could you show where in the Bible it says the Supreme Court of the U.S. declares independence from God in June 2015?


When a nation fills its cup to overflowing with rebellion against God, judgment follows (see my previous post).
So what you're really saying is you made up the part about [fearfulness about proclaiming what the word of God means before it happens] to mean something in June 2015.

Quote:

My prophetic discernment understands that when the Supreme Court legislates gay marriage as the law of the entire United States, the court will have placed an abomination that makes desolate (because it destroys its adherents) above the law of God. Thus God will remove His divine protection from the US.
And it sounds like you are saying the current vote which you already knew about, you are meaning that to be "U.S. declares independence from God in June 2015".

Of course you could say, "California Set to Mandate Childhood Vaccines Amid Intense Fight", shows U.S. declaring independence from God in June 2015". Or any other news article.....


Of course, it could also be said:

"And when this cometh to pass, (lo, it will come,) then shall they know..." Eze_33:33

"Wisdom resteth in the heart of him that hath understanding: but that which is in the midst of fools is made known."


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: Identifying the Kings of the North and South - Daniel 11 [Re: APL] #174648
06/26/15 04:55 PM
06/26/15 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: kland
APL, you need to show that "shall come to his end" can mean "came to his end".
What does "at that time" refer to?


When he plants the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain;

Daniel 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which stands for the children of your people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time your people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Yet, future to at that time when he plants himself pretending to be God, getting ready to slaughter the saints, and when Michael shall stand up, future to that time, he shall come to his end, the controversy ended.

Re: Identifying the Kings of the North and South - Daniel 11 [Re: His child] #174650
06/26/15 05:00 PM
06/26/15 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted By: His child

Of course, it could also be said:

"And when this cometh to pass, (lo, it will come,) then shall they know..." Eze_33:33

"Wisdom resteth in the heart of him that hath understanding: but that which is in the midst of fools is made known."


But can we just make up vague things unrelated, and then say, see it came to pass?

I must say it would remove you from critique.

When June ends, we won't have nothing to say you were or were not correct

Re: Identifying the Kings of the North and South - Daniel 11 [Re: kland] #174653
06/26/15 05:44 PM
06/26/15 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: kland
APL, you need to show that "shall come to his end" can mean "came to his end".
What does "at that time" refer to?


When he plants the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain;

Daniel 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which stands for the children of your people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time your people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Yet, future to at that time when he plants himself pretending to be God, getting ready to slaughter the saints, and when Michael shall stand up, future to that time, he shall come to his end, the controversy ended.
Plating his tabernacle is at this time, still future. You separate the coming to the end and no one helping him from the rest of the sentence, is that fair? What did the Adventist pioneers believe on this? They believed that the KOTN plants his tabernacle but no one helps him and he comes to his end. THEN, Michael stands up. It is consistent with the text. Read what the Pioneers wrote.

Here are two samples:
This treaty was signed, and the ultimatum was officially put in the power of Mehemet Ali on August 11, 1840. Since that time Turkey has been known everywhere as the "Sick Man of the East." Daniel prophesied concerning him, saying, "He shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him." At any moment, when the jealous powers of Europe can decide, either peaceably, or in battle, which one of them shall occupy Constantinople, the "Sick Man" will speedily take his departure from Europe. That movement, for which nations are now on the alert, will be the sign of still more important changes in the heavenly court. {1905 SNH, SSP 178.1}

-----

So, then, when the Word says that "he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain," it means that he will move his palace from Constantinople to Jerusalem. What then?--"Yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him." That is what the Turks, and the mighty powers, and the people of the nations, all expect.
{1900 ATJ, MON 34.1}

And what then?--"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great Prince which standeth for the children of thy people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time." And that is exactly what all the great powers, and the people of God, expect.
{1900 ATJ, MON 34.2}

NOTE - they consistently believed that the KOTH was not the Papacy. But papacy is sure involved in the time of trouble however.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Identifying the Kings of the North and South - Daniel 11 [Re: APL] #174671
06/27/15 10:06 PM
06/27/15 10:06 PM
dedication  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: APL
When does the time of trouble begin? AFTER the King of the North has come to his end.

Daniel 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which stands for the children of your people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time your people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

What do we look for which will be a guidepost as to what it happening in the Heavenly Sanctuary?


The arguments fails to realize the literary style of prophetic writings. That is the author gives an outline, then fills in details. For example consider Revelation 20-21
There we first read what satan and the lost who are "living again" attempt to do and it reveals their end as fire consumes them.
Then it goes back to tell us what God will do during the same time period when resurrected stand before the white throne judgement and once again tells of their end in the lake of fire.
THEN it tells of the city coming down from heaven (which we understand to be the same city satan and his hordes try to attack. It's the same city where Christ sits on the white throne.

Obviously John in Revelation 20-21 gives us events, then goes back to fill in details.

The same in Daniel 11:40 to 12:3
Daniel 11:40-45 gives the story focused on the earthly power which SHALL come to his end.
Daniel 12:1-3 fills in the details focused on Christ and the situation of His people.

The passages overlap

And he (the king of the north) shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.


A key point for God's people to remember is that he shall come to his end, because when the pressure is on the temptation to give in will be great.

And at that time (while the king of the north is exercising his power) shall Michael stand up, the great prince which stands for the children of your people: (at this time we can be sure Christ will stand for His people, we need NOT give in to the human powers, remember Christ is on our side,)
and at that same time, there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation (why is there a time of trouble? because the king of the north -- the confederate Roman religious/political power -- by force and might is trying to align the whole world under his agenda) but remember he will come to his end,
and at that time your people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Re: Identifying the Kings of the North and South - Daniel 11 [Re: dedication] #174672
06/27/15 10:43 PM
06/27/15 10:43 PM
dedication  Online Content
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ATJ was simply following U.Smith's interpretation.

I do not believe U. Smith was correct in his interpretation of Daniel 11:40-45 and quoting his ideas isn't going to convince me.

James White, who was a leading Adventist Pioneer, understood the problem in Uriah Smith's interpretation, and White's logic makes sense.
Originally Posted By: James White

Positions taken upon the Eastern question are based upon prophecies which have not yet their fulfillment. Here we should tread lightly, and take positions carefully, lest we be found removing the landmarks fully established in the advent movement....
Let us take a brief view of the line of prophecy four times spanned in the book of Daniel. It will be admitted that the same ground is passed over in chapters two, seven, eight, and eleven, with this exception that Babylon is left out of chapters eight and eleven.
We first pass down the great image of chapter two, where Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome are represented by the gold, the silver, the brass, and the iron. All agree that these feet are not Turkish but Roman.
And as we pass down, the lion, the bear, the leopard, and the beast with ten horns, representing the same as the great image, again all will agree that it is not Turkey that is cast into the burning flame, but the Roman beast.
So of chapter eight, all agree that the little horn that stood up against the Prince of princes is not Turkey but Rome.

In all these three lines thus far Rome is the last form of government mentioned.

Now comes the point in the argument upon which very much depends. Does the eleventh chapter of the prophecy of Daniel cover the ground measured by chapters two, seven, and eight'? If so, then the last power mentioned in that chapter is Rome.

" And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seat in the glorious holy mountain, margin, of delights of holiness, yet he shall come to his end and none to help him." Dan. 11 :45. ARSH Vol. 50 #22, November 29, 1877 p172

Originally Posted By: James White
We trace down the line of prophecy represented by the metallic image of the second chapter of Daniel, from the golden head, Babylon, the silver breast and arms, Media and Persia, past the sides of brass, Grecia, to the feet and toes, Rome in its divided state, and there we find ourselves waiting the utter destruction of all earthly governments, represented by the stone dashing the image in pieces....
The same field of prophecy is occupied in the seventh chapter of Daniel with the use of another class of symbols, the lion, the bear, the leopard, the beast with ten horns, and the same beast with three horns plucked up by the little horn. The kingdom of Babylon is symbolized by the lion of this chapter, the same as by the golden head of chapter second. Persia by the bear, Grecia by the leopard, and Pagan and Papal Rome by the two forms or conditions of the great and terrible beast. The specifications of this prophetic chain are more minute than those of chapter second....

Again, the last three of those four universal empires are symbolized in the eighth chapter of Daniel by the ram with two horns, Media and Persia ; the goat, Grecia ; and the little horn, Rome. This horn was to become exceedingly great, stand up against the Prince of princes in his first advent, and be broken without hand at his second advent. We wait the destruction of the man of sin by the brightness of the coming of the King of kings.

And there is a line of historic prophecy in chapter eleven, where the symbols are thrown off, beginning with the kings of Persia, and reaching down past Grecia and Rome, to the time when that power " shall come to his end and none shall help him."

If the feet and the toes of the metallic image are Roman, if the beast with ten horns that was given to the burning flames of the great day be the Roman beast, if the little horn which stood up against the Prince of princes be Rome, and if the same field and distance are covered by these four prophet chains, then the last power of the eleventh chapter, which is to " come to his end and none shall help him," is Rome. But if this be Turkey, as some teach, then the toes of the image of the second chapter are Turkish, the beast with ten horns of the seventh chapter represents Turkey, and it was Turkey that stood up against the Prince of princes of the eighth chapter of Daniel. (ARSH Vol. 51 #15, Oct.3, 1878 p. 116)


Originally Posted By: James White
THE field of Daniel's prophecy embraces five universal kingdoms. These are Babylon, Media and Persia. Grecia, Rome, and the eternal kingdom of God. The ground of the four perishable kingdoms, reaching to, and introducing the immortal kingdom, is covered by four distinct lines of prophecy. These are given in chapters two, seven, eight and eleven. The eleventh chapter of Daniel closes with the close of the fourth monarchy, with these words:-

" And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; [mountain of delight of holiness, Heb. Marg.;] yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him."

The twelfth chapter continues:—

" And at that time shall Michael [Christ] stand up [reign], the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time; and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament, and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever."

The student of prophecy is thus borne down the stream of time from Babylon in the height of the glory of that kingdom, past Media and Persia, the kingdom of Grecia, and the Roman Empire which comes to its end at the second coming of Christ and the resurrection of the dead, and out into the ocean of eternity, when the truly wise "shine as the firmament, and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever."{Signs of the Times Vol. 6 #28, July 22, 1880 p. 330


The point is simple --
All Daniel's outlines of prophecy follow the same pattern.

1. Babylon (though not included in the later visions after it had already fallen to Media Persia)
2. Media Persia
3. Grecia (which includes the Seleucids and Ptolemy)
4. Rome (which includes early Roman, papal Rome, and healed Rome)
5. Christ's eternal kingdom.




Re: Identifying the Kings of the North and South - Daniel 11 [Re: Charity] #174680
06/28/15 04:55 AM
06/28/15 04:55 AM
APL  Offline
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Yes, I agree with Babylon, Media Persia, Greece, Rome. That's fine. But that does not define the KOTN. Ellen White called James out for arguing with U. Smith. And ATJ and SN Haskell writing after US, still pointed out that the KOTH was not the Papacy. And Smith warned that this prophesy was future and so to be careful.

But taking the position of the majority of the Adventist Pioneers, and the situation today in the Middle East, the KOTN fits with Islam/ISIL and the events as played out in Daniel 11:45 could easily fit. And if ISIL did invade Israel, and came to its end with no one to help him, it is THEN, that Michael stands up, and is about to leave the Heavenly Sanctuary and the time of trouble is about to start. The Papacy goes until the second coming. the KOTN by the plain reading of Daniel does not.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Identifying the Kings of the North and South - Daniel 11 [Re: Charity] #174681
06/28/15 05:53 AM
06/28/15 05:53 AM
dedication  Online Content
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The king of the North is Rome.

James White was right on that, even EGW says he was right.

U. Smith was connecting current events (the Russian/Turkish war that was being fought at that time) with Daniel 11, and the people were eating it up.

EGW's counsel to her husband was due to the fact she knew if he were to openly challenge Smith it would result in a lot of contention and arguing and people would lose any spiritual blessings, and since the leaders would be going at each other, (both of them being quite hard hitting debaters) the people would start questioning all the prophetic interpretations.



This is what EGW wrote about the occasion:

Quote:
My husband had some ideas on some points differing from the views taken by his brethren. I was shown that however true his views were, God did not call for him to put them in front before his brethren and create differences of ideas. While he might hold these views subordinate himself, once they are made public, minds would seize upon them, and just because others believe differently would make these differences the whole burden of the message, and get up contention and variance. {CW 76.4}

Re: Identifying the Kings of the North and South - Daniel 11 [Re: APL] #174682
06/28/15 07:06 AM
06/28/15 07:06 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: APL

But taking the position of the majority of the Adventist Pioneers, and the situation today in the Middle East, the KOTN fits with Islam/ISIL and the events as played out in Daniel 11:45 could easily fit. And if ISIL did invade Israel, and came to its end with no one to help him, it is THEN, that Michael stands up, and is about to leave the Heavenly Sanctuary and the time of trouble is about to start. The Papacy goes until the second coming. the KOTN by the plain reading of Daniel does not.


The Islam situation fits FAR better as the King of the South.

Islam already has their tabernacle in Jerusalem.

In 637 AD, The Muslims conquered Jerusalem from the Romans. (KOTN lost Palestine to KOTS) During the Papal called crusades the (KOTN) fought against the Muslims (KOTS) over Jerusalem, the Christians (KOTN) gaining control for awhile, but it reverted back to the Muslims (KOTS) and remained under their jurisdiction for many centuries.

The Muslims built their "tabernacles" on the "glorious mountain" or temple mount for some 1300 years already. In 691 an octagonal Islamic building of worship, topped by a dome was built by the Caliph Abd al-Malika. The shrine became known as the Dome of the Rock. Though changes and renovations have occurred the Muslims still have their "tabernacle" on the temple site. At present the area is controlled by the State of Israel, but administration of the site remains in the hands of the Jerusalem Islamic Waqf.

Right now the king of the South is pushing -- agitating.
Newspapers pour out news of muslim immigrants flooding European countries, there is news of heightened terrorist attacks against pope, against the United States on July 4, against other countries. The king of the South is pushing the panic buttons.


At that time --

What time?
At the time when the king of the North (Papal led united religion using the power of the state) goes after the KOTS under the "mission" of bringing peace to the world.

"At that time" This is not consecutive -- it's all talking about the same time period. "At that time" Indeed the KOTN continues till Christ delivers His people, and thus, in days ahead when it's extremely dangerous to resist the KOTN's demands, we need to remember that he SHALL come to his end, Christ will deliver His people.




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