Quite interesting MM. But Europe has neither been all Catholic since the reformation, nor all Communist. Parts of Germany, Northern Europe, and Holland have been protestant since the reformation. Also parts of Switzerland. It is quite interesting traveling along the line between the Catholic and Protestant sections in Germany and observe which church is dominant in each village. The same line is still there, generally speaking, since the Reformation. The villages that belonged to the protestant princes then are still protestant (Lutheran) today.

But some of the marks are falling.

Excellent post MM,

As I see the 7/8 Kingdoms of Revelation 17;

1) Babylon
2) Medo-Persia
3) Greece
4) Rome
5) Papal Rome
6) Image of the Beast - USA
7) World Civil Government (NWO) supported by Apostate Protestantism with the Healing of the wound.
8) Babylon - Papacy, Apostate Protestantism and Spiritualism with the Papacy in charge.


As far as the number "666" is concerned; It is the number of a name and the number of a man - the Pope or Papacy.

Alchemy, I like your list, too. So, we are still in the 5th kingdom. Have been since 538 AD. But it won't be long before the USA forms an image to the beast enforcing Sunday Laws.

I tend to agree on the five heads that are "fallen" --
FIVE HAVE FALLEN --
Ancient Babylon, Persia, Grecia, Rome, Papal Rome

The sixth is interesting for it is a time when the beast is not --
"The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; Rev. 17:8
"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is,...(10)

Thus we are in the sixth head stage when the beast as a persecuting power is not -- but there is still a head.
We are at the END of the sixth head time.


The seventh head is the revival of the full beast power once again. It is healed but will be around only a short while longer (thankfully).

The eighth is NOT a head in the same sense as the rest. In fact it isn't a head at all for the beast only has seven heads as the chapter points out THREE TIMES.

The eighth is the something else -- I believe it is satan himself impersonating Christ -- he was the master mind behind all the false worship and persecution throughout the whole existence of the beast.

So it would look more like this:

1) Babylon
2) Medo-Persia
3) Greece
4) Rome
5) Papal Rome
6) Roman Church without minus it's control over state and persecuting power
7) Healed Beast power -- Papal Rome holding hands with apostate Protestantism and empowered by spiritualism

This is cemented with the appearance of the master mind who has empowered the beast through the ages -- Satan pretending to be Christ. (the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth .. vs 11)

The final events will be rapid ones ==
Once the church regains control of state (which can happen overnight in the event of some calamity) it will be A SHORT time till Jesus comes.

Are we taking advantage of the peace still granted us to warn the world of what is coming.

Excellent post dedication. I used to believe similar to this until I realized in Revelation 13 that right at the end of the fifth king, or first beast, is rising up another beast. I take this beast to be the sixth king.

I have never thought of the eighth quite like you do though. I understand there are only seven kings, but one of them rises again. In Revelation 13 17 and 18 we see Babylon mention as that great city or kingdom at the end.

I do believe that the establishment of a global government, the rise of Apostate Protestantism and the healing of the deadly wound fulfill the seventh king.

Blessings MM,

Just to clarify; I believe the 5th king ended in 1798 and that the sixth king started then. I believe the USA could have and would have fulfilled all the requirements of the Image of the Beast sooner if necessary. I remember December of 1888 for example.

When Rome morphed from pagan to papal it occupied another one of the seven heads (4th and 5th). Why not the same for the USA? That is, when the USA morphs from lamb-like to dragon-like why not two separate heads (6th and 7th)? The 8th would be Papal Rome Healed.

PS - I favor Communist Europe for the 6th head.

I understand your point MM. And all I can say is what I see from Scripture.

For instance; Rome changed dramatically from a mighty civil/religious power to a very small civil/religious power. Papal Rome was a nation of dark sentences and intrigue, while Imperial Rome disintegrated and did not exist anymore. They were two very different powers. (i.e. a beast to a horn to a little horn) Papal Rome followed after Imperial Rome in look and pomp, but not in power and strength. Papal Rome's authority and seat came from Imperial Rome, Papal Rome did not create its strength or seat on its own.

Whereas the United States was speaking as a dragon back in the nineteenth century. The USA never really reached that lamb-like status which would have made it even more powerful.

But, I do believe the USA is part of Apostate Protestantism during the 7th and 8th kings, until the ten kings in Revelation 17:12-14.

Excellent ideas and insights. Thank you for sharing. I am confident of 1-5. Not so sure about 6. And absolutely certain 7 and 8 symbolize Apostate Protestant America and Catholic Europe Healed. The 10 horns symbolize the rest of world uniting with 7/8 to enforce Sunday Laws.

Blessings MM,

Just one more point on the ten kings of Revelation 17:12-14; 7BC 983.3-7.

I believe I need to modify my list somewhat;

1) Babylon
2) Medo-Persia
3) Greece
4) Imperial Rome
5) Papal Rome
6) Lamb-like Beast with Dragon Mouth (USA) GC 578.3
7) Image of the Beast (Apostate Protestantism with USA leading the way to heal deadly wound of the Beast.)
8) Babylon (Papacy, Apostate Protestantism and Spiritualism with Papacy as the head)

Has the USA started speaking as a dragon?

Where does satan personating Christ fit in the lineup?

How many heads does the beast have?

17:3 " having seven heads
17:7 "beast that carries her, which has the seven heads
17:9 "The seven heads are seven mountains"

So here we see that the beast has SEVEN heads.

Nowhere does it say he has eight heads.
The beast is an eighth identity, all seven heads are attached to this beast, all seven heads are part of this identity.

This beast is red (scarlet) like the DRAGON in chapter 12.
It has seven heads and ten horns like the dragon in chapter 12. And chapter 12 tells us who this dragon with it's seven heads that persecute God's true church is -- "Satan, the devil that old serpent".

The heads represent political/religious powers through which Satan worked to persecute God's true church.




When the angel carries John forward in time, John sees the beast when "the beast is not" -- in other words the political part was separated from the spiritual part and the beast (even though the woman, or spiritual part was alive) had lost it's power.

At that point
FIVE "heads" HAVE FALLEN --
Ancient Babylon, Persia, Grecia, Rome, Papal Rome's political power.



The sixth is interesting for it is a time when the beast is not --
"The beast that thou sawest was, and is not, and yet is; Rev. 17:8
"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, the other is not yet come; and when he comes, he must continue a short space. pit...(10)

Thus we are in the sixth head stage when the beast as a persecuting power is not -- but there is still a head.
We are at the END of the sixth head time.


The seventh head is the revival of the political/religious beast power once again.
The beast is healed and can launch back into its persecution fury.

The eighth is NOT a head. In fact it isn't a head at all for the beast only has seven heads as the chapter points out THREE TIMES.

The eighth is the very identity of the beast which has the seven heads.
I believe it is satan himself impersonating Christ -- he was the master mind behind all the false worship and persecution throughout the whole existence of the beast.

So it would look more like this:

1) Babylon
2) Medo-Persia
3) Greece
4) Rome
5) Papal Rome wielding political enforcing power.
6) Roman Church minus it's political control over state and persecuting power
7) Healed Beast power -- Papal Rome holding hands with apostate Protestantism and empowered by spiritualism

This is cemented with the appearance of the master mind who has empowered the beast through the ages -- Satan pretending to be Christ. (the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth .. vs 11)

[/quote]

Dedication, nice list. Good logic. Thank you for sharing. But it doesn't make sense to me to say the prophecy allocates 3 out of the 7 heads to same kingdom, namely, Papal Rome. Pagan Rome underwent several radical transformations during its 600 year reign and yet the prophecy allocated only one head.

I believe that the USA has been speaking as a dragon for a long time. But, mot constantly. The dragon side of the USA has had to be wise and calculated in revealing itself.

I believe it is the passing of the Sunday Law in the United States that creates the Image of the Beast. Then the USA will lead apostate protestants in Europe to pass Sunday Laws to heal the deadly wound of the beast.

I don't believe Satan's personating Christ is part of these 10 kings in Revelation 17.

Thank you.

No problem MM.

When we look at slavery in the early years of the United States. That was left over from England, yet the country was divided over how to handle it. Blacks were free in some states, blacks were slaves in some states and blacks were in limbo in other states. So, the dragon was speaking enough to maintain an evil status quo I believe.

We finally had to have a civil war to resolve some of these issues, such as slavery.

So, the USA has had a dragon mouth at times throughout our history. But, we mostly speak as a dragon these days.

The prophecy chose to portray the USA like a lamb. "Both the appearance of this beast and the manner of its rise indicate that the nation which it represents is unlike those presented under the preceding symbols. . . Instead of overthrowing other powers to establish itself, the nation thus represented must arise in territory previously unoccupied and grow up gradually and peacefully." (GC 339, 340)

"Among the Christian exiles who first fled to America and sought an asylum from royal oppression and priestly intolerance were many who determined to establish a government upon the broad foundation of civil and religious liberty. Their views found place in the Declaration of Independence, which sets forth the great truth that "all men are created equal" and endowed with the inalienable right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." And the Constitution guarantees to the people the right of self-government, providing that representatives elected by the popular vote shall enact and administer the laws. Freedom of religious faith was also granted, every man being permitted to worship God according to the dictates of his conscience. Republicanism and Protestantism became the fundamental principles of the nation. These principles are the secret of its power and prosperity. The oppressed and downtrodden throughout Christendom have turned to this land with interest and hope. Millions have sought its shores, and the United States has risen to a place among the most powerful nations of the earth." (GC 441)

"But the beast with lamblike horns "spake as a dragon. . . The prediction that it will speak "as a dragon" and exercise "all the power of the first beast" plainly foretells a development of the spirit of intolerance and persecution that was manifested by the nations represented by the dragon and the leopardlike beast. And the statement that the beast with two horns "causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast" indicates that the authority of this nation is to be exercised in enforcing some observance which shall be an act of homage to the papacy. . . It is the beast with lamblike horns--in profession pure, gentle, and harmless--that speaks as a dragon. (GC 342)

"In order for the United States to form an image of the beast, the religious power must so control the civil government that the authority of the state will also be employed by the church to accomplish her own ends. . . When the leading churches of the United States, uniting upon such points of doctrine as are held by them in common, shall influence the state to enforce their decrees and to sustain their institutions, then Protestant America will have formed an image of the Roman hierarchy, and the infliction of civil penalties upon dissenters will inevitably result. . . The "image to the beast" represents that form of apostate Protestantism which will be developed when the Protestant churches shall seek the aid of the civil power for the enforcement of their dogmas. (GC 343, 345

The prophecy says the USA will speak like a dragon in the future - sometime after its establishment in North America. In particular the prophecy says it will speak like a dragon when the USA unites with the church to enforce Sunday Laws. So, technically the USA is not speaking as a dragon right now. Yes, it is warming up to the fact.

Oh, I disagree!

In Revelation 13, the very next beast after "the beast", is the lamb-like beast. The first beast receives its deadly wound in 1798. So, it is at this time the lamb-like beast with the dragon mouth is rising. Clearly, the United States of America.

The passing of the Sunday is what creates the Image of the Beast. Now, the USA leads apostate protestantism around the world and causes the healing of the wound by promoting and supporting Sunday Laws in Europe. Once Europe has passed their Sunday Laws the deadly wound is healed.

I believe exactly what these quotes express.

Alchemy, I appreciate you sharing your view.

GC 342;

""But the beast with lamblike horns "spake as a dragon. . . The prediction that it will speak "as a dragon" and exercise "all the power of the first beast" plainly foretells a development of the spirit of intolerance and persecution that was manifested by the nations represented by the dragon and the leopardlike beast." (bold emphasis mine)

Sister White explains that this spirit from nations in the past will "develop" over time in the United States. It has been "developing" and is almost completed.

Things may not play out in our lifetime. Sunday Laws may not be passed before we pass. Things could go on for another couple hundred years. Who knows? On the other hand, things could happen rapidly. Very soon. Within a few short years. But the question remains - Is the SDA and World ready for it to play out now? My gut says - No. Not yet. My heart says - Please happen in my lifetime. The sooner, the better. I long to be in heaven with Jesus and my loved ones.

(bold emphasis mine)

I will say this, it won't be more than forty years. I know the "dark day" is the one wild card still out there, but, except for that, Jesus will come in less than forty years.

Why?!? You may ask?!? Because I believe we are in the last generation.

I believed it in 1982. Things were lined up nicely. The thing missing nowadays is the revival and reformation running rampant in the early to mid 80's. The righteousness by faith movement during those years was amazing and motivating. No such movement exists now.

(bold emphasis mine)

Blessings MM,

What about 1982? Did you believe that was the last generation?

I was a part of that "righteousness by faith movement". Although, I didn't know it was a movement as such. I was baptized into the SDA Church in August of 1982. Morris Venden was one I liked to read from. I heard him speak once at a campmeeting.

Yet, I believe what we are hearing from the "Present Truth" circles is bringing great light to the body of Christ.

I don't really like all these terms, but, I don't know how to avoid them.

Yes, things were such in the early to mid 80's that many of us felt the final generation (the translation generation) were alive and well. We also thought Jesus would return within a few years. There were so many reasons to think so - 1) President Reagan, 2) Pope John Paul II, and 3) the righteousness by faith movement.

You should start believing it again, Mountain Man.

It is difficult to remain objective (to put it mildly!), but I tend to agree: He will return soon.

So many disparate events are coming to fruition in a way the planet has never seen.

Remember the signs Jesus listed in Matthew 24?

"In 1970, the average of natural disasters that were reported was 78; in 2004, this number jumped to 348. According to AccuWeather, since 1990, natural disasters have affected 217 million people every single year.

From 1980 to 2009 there was an 80 percent increase in the growth of climate-related disasters. Between 2001 and 2010, more than $1.2 trillion was lost to the increased rates of natural disasters. This was a dramatic rise, which between 1981 and 1990 had been roughly $528 billion.

With storms such as Typhoon Yolanda/Haiyan, Hurricane Katrina, Hurricane Irene, as well as the tsunamis and earthquakes that plagued Japan, a trend is apparent. But what is the cause of the horrific increase in disasters?

Scientists have concluded that the surges in climatic disasters is due to both man-made and natural elements. Contrary to popular belief, the sole cause of the increase is not attributed to global warming." The Borgen Project


Then there the are ominous societal changes, worldwide (no I don't mean rap!).
The USA in particular is changing: morphing into its next phase of existence...

"Murder rates have increased sharply across the US in 2015, with at least 30 cities reporting a rise in violence." BBC

Increase by city:
Milwaukee 76%
St Louis, 60%
Baltimore 56% etc.

Fascism is running rampant:
Citizens killed (murdered) by police, have you watched the news lately?
Corporate monopolization of media, 6 Corporations Control 90% Of The Media In USA.
Recent campaign donation changes give corporations unlimited control of elected officials.
Technology that has never before existed is being turned on citizens: cars are tracked, emails are read, telephone calls are monitored, CCTV tracks individual movement in more places every year etc.
Religious freedom is being eroded: "Kentucky clerk jailed for defying court orders on gay marriage." BBC
The gap between rich and poor is increasing faster and faster.

I won't even get into drone attacks on civilians, war for oil, or (un)officially sanctioned torture.

These are just a few ways, the USA is already "speaking like a Dragon".

In the eighties we had Reagan and John Paul: now we have Francis the first Jesuit Pope; Francis is John Paul on steroids! Every few months, his "Holiness's" push for Sunday sanctity grows more aggressive (see Doug Batchelor's video), his political influences are swiftly becoming bolder and bolder. This month he is scheduled to address the United Nations and (for the first time in history!) Congress!

Then there is the meteoric rise in Papal popularity. Francis (The People's Pope) quickly became the most beloved Pope of all time: " and all the world wondered after the beast."
Revelation 13:3
If memory does not fail me, the root word "wondered" is defined in Strong's as "to follow".
Well, most of the world is turning to "follow" Francis. Even atheists love him: he is the Savior of the environment, the Leader of social justice, the "conscience of the world!

Being from South America, he also has huge influence on the millions of immigrants (legal and illegal) pouring north into the USA, not to mention the six Catholic members of the Supreme Court. Since the remaining three are Jewish that leaves zero Protestants on the bench!

A large number of President Obama's intelligence advisors seem to be Catholic or Catholic schooled this list is from 2010:
Director of National Intelligence James Clapper, (Alma Mater St. Mary’s University, Texas); Robert Cardillo, DIA deputy Director (and now Director of National intelligence for  intelligence integration and schooled at Georgetown), Deputy National Security Adviser Tom Donilon (Donillon attended la Salle Academy, earned a B.A. at:  The Catholic University of America in 1977; John Brennan, Assistant to the President for Homeland Security and Counter terrorism ( Attended private catholic schools from his youth, is Alma mater at Fordham University and is former CIA); and National Security Advisor Gen. James L. Jones (Alma Mater Georgetown University).


John Boehner: Speaker of the United States House of Representatives and third in line in Presidential succession, is Catholic. He attended Xavier, Jesuit, Catholic University...


I believe the World is much closer to being prepared for the Sunday Law than most people suspect...

As for the Church, admittedly we need "purification" and "eye salve".
Still, consider the various controversies threatening to tear us apart: the WOPE debate, the Emergent Church insinuating itself into our midst via Celebration Churches, The One Project etc. Catholic practices, such as Contemplative Prayer are required courses in some of our schools. Our professors espouse the savage faith of Darwinism, while SDA retreats in Florida invite the FB mockery of false prophets like Leonard Sweet to mesmerize the Remnent...

I could go on, there is much more, but I'm on an IPad and my typing finger is getting sore.


The SDA Church is going to be Shaken and Purified, and it will be very soon.
By the Grace of God, we WILL be a people prepared for our Lord.

The eighties were just a warm up. Things are definitely changing fast.

People, get ready!

WOW!

Amen ProdigalOne.

Thank you.

Prodigal One, I hope you are right. Although I don't look forward to the shaking or the time of trouble, it must happen before Jesus can return. So, I pray for revival and reformation.

Yes Brother, may God send us revival and reformation.
May He make us ready for the Times of Refreshing from Above.
May He fill us to overflowing with His selfless Love.
In Jesus wonderful name, amen!

Blessings MM,

Just another statement from Sister White;

I saw that the two-horned beast had a dragon’s mouth, and that his power was in his head, and that the decree would go out of his mouth. Then I saw the Mother of Harlots; that the mother was not the daughters, but separate and distinct from them. She has had her day, and it is past, and her daughters, the Protestant sects, were the next to come on the stage and act out the same mind that the mother had when she persecuted the saints. I saw that as the mother has been declining in power, the daughters had been growing, and soon they will exercise the power once exercised by the mother. {SpM 1.4} (bold emphasis mine)

Here Sister White clearly says the two-horned beast with the dragon mouth would rise up over time as the first beast in Revelation, the Mother of Harlots, was declining.

Great quote. All the world will "wonder" over the beast when it regains its lost power. Mother may be down, but she is not dead. Daughter will revive mother. Together the two will twist and shout like tornadoes.

And you are correct, MM. "All the world wondered after the BEAST"! Satan is the king of Babylon, but through the BEAST. The Dragon has given his power and authority and seat to the BEAST. Let's not forget that.

Chapter 39 in the GC contains many details and descriptions of things that happen before probation closes. I am inclined to believe some of those things begin to happen before probation closes and continue to happen afterward well into the outpouring of the plagues. Seems to me the plagues begin to fall soon after probation closes.


Certain passages seem to indicate a period of peace and silence will persist for a time immediately preceding and following the close of probation:


I doubt Satan will first start personating the return of Christ during this short time. I am fairly certain it will begin before and continue through to the instant Jesus arrives.

And I saw a flaming cloud come where Jesus stood. Then Jesus . . . took His place on the cloud which carried Him to the East, where it first appeared to the saints on earth--a small black cloud which was the sign of the Son of man. While the cloud was passing from the Holiest to the East, which took a number of days, the synagogue of Satan worshipped at the saints' feet. {Mar 287.7}

Excellent quote, MM.

I don't believe this is the only place where time passes though. In the statement I quoted the plagues are falling before the Sanctuary Service is completely finished, it will take some time to lead the Scapegoat, or Satan, into the land of forgetfulness. This forgetfulness is a clue actually, I believe.

Which brings me back to a question I asked earlier about when does the close of probation take place. Let me rephrase it this way; At what point in the service of the Heavenly Sanctuary does the close of probation take place? At what point in the Heavenly Sanctuary service is the remission of sins complete?

Blessings MM,

There isn't anything in all these statements you quoted that would lead me to believe that Satan's personation of Christ is before the close of probation! I do believe it takes place before the plagues start to fall, but, not before the close of probation.

If you read the chapter on the Time of Trouble in the Great Controversy, take into account the context of that whole chapter, there isn't any doubt in my mind that the personation of Christ's Second Coming by Satan is after the close of probation.

Alchemy, I'm glad you are certain about what you believe. It is comforting to believe so firmly. I suppose Jesus waiting to allow Satan to personate His coming until after probation closes would serve to prevent the delusion from being too much for the translation generation. Time will tell.

Alchemy and Mountain Man, excellent quotes!

"I saw that God has honest children among the nominal Adventists and the fallen churches, and before the plagues shall be poured out, ministers and people will be called out from these churches and will gladly receive the truth. Satan knows this; and before the loud cry of the third angel is given, he raises an excitement in these religious bodies, that those who have rejected the truth may think that God is with them."--EW 261 (1858). {LDE 158.1}


This quote from Mountain Man seems like something that could be starting now!

Does anyone have any thoughts on what "nominal Adventists" are?

(bold emphasis mine)

That is another point I was going to make. Sister White says more than once that God's people will not be misled. I do believe this is one reason why. Although, she does say God has some help for His people at the time Satan shows up on the earth. The dazzling majesty Satan will be allowed to show will be more than we realize.

I do hope I am not coming on too strong. But, I truly believe I am on right track. I can't be sure I have all the information available at my disposal. So, as I learn more I adjust accordingly. But, I do believe in sharing what light I do have.

Sure knocks the socks off of the papacy reemergence theory that is imbedded in so many of these posts. But when tradition creeps into the church, it is difficult to root it out no matter what the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy says.

Blessings ProdigalOne,

I agree that we should be giving the trumpet that certain sound now! But, we know that Satan is going to excite other churches into something to make them believe that God is with them when God isn't in the message they preach.

As far as the nominal Adventists go; You ask a painful question. In describing what a nominal Adventist is, we are going to step on some toes here in this site.

But, we need to be able to recognize them all the same.

Blessings MM,

It is important to not get confused between the little time of trouble and Jacob's time of trouble. These are completely different events.

Sister White calls the time of trouble in the chapter called "The Time of Trouble" in Great Controversy Jacob's time of trouble.

So not one person here agrees with the pioneers?

THE SEVEN HEADS OF REVELATION 12, 13, AND 17
BY
URIAH SMITH

In advocating the view that the seven heads of the dragon of Revelation 12... represent seven forms of government that have existed in the Roman Empire, the writer deems it necessary to remind the reader that he is not dealing in novelties. He is not introducing a new view to appeal to the curiosity of the reader, and to cater to the not always healthy excitement of pursuing a line of thought because it is strange. But the view which will be advocated in this paper is one which has characterized the Adventist movement from the beginning, through the first, second, and third messages, to the present time, and is only beginning within a few years to be called in question. Nor can the view be said to be peculiar to Adventists in its historical aspect, - a scheme devised by them to meet their peculiar views of prophecy, - for scholars declared before the Adventist movement began, that Rome had presented to the world, as a unique and marvelous feature of history, seven distinct forms of government. All that the Adventists did, was to say, as the most natural thing in the world, that if Rome did have seven forms of government, the seven heads of the dragon, which was a symbol of Rome, must be designed to represent that fact. The old Roman historians, Livy and Tacitus, acknowledged the different forms of government in Rome, to be so many “heads” of the Roman commonwealth... And one of the earliest Protestant commentators, Osiander, as early as 1511, names the whole seven as we have them; namely, Kings, Consuls, Decemvirs, Dictators, Triumvirs, Emperors, and Popes, as the forms of Roman government represented by the seven heads of the dragon of Revelation 12... Adventists, under the first message, at once adopted this view. {SHR 1.1}

***** STAFF EDIT *****

Pope Francis is the eighth Papal king since the healing of the head wound by Mussolini in 1929 giving the pope his title of KING back.

He is also "the beast that was and is not" because he is a Jesuit, the persecuting power of the Papacy.

AND he is from OUT OF the seven hills of Rome which is symbolic of the territory of the ancient Roman empire, because he is the first to be elected from OUT OF the mountains of Europe.

Now he will lead the world to perdition and you all stand around and argue who the seven heads are.

Pope Francis was with the protestant leaders when they said "the protest is over" and you all still argue?

Please read this blog..... ***** STAFF EDIT *****

http://allbeastslead2rome.blogspot.com/2015/10/blog-post.html

Did anyone catch that? Would anyone like to venture to guess how we got here from where Uriah Smith said the Reformers taught and believed and the Pioneers defended?

"the view which will be advocated in this paper is one which has characterized the Adventist movement from the beginning, through the first, second, and third messages, to the present time, and is only beginning within a few years to be called in question"

But you all know better than the pioneers?

I understand that the term Roman Empire is used, but, that term is technically incorrect!

The Apostle Peter called Imperial Rome Babylon and Ellen White called Papal Rome Babylon. So, the correct term is actually Babylon.

And the beast the was, and is not, is also Babylon.

Now, Rome plays a huge part in Babylon, I know. But, the first and eighth mountains is Babylon with the other six being different representations of Babylon down through the ages. The eighth is of the seven and is Babylon.

I really can't say that enough.

(bold emphasis mine)

No. I got my understanding from the Bible and Ellen White.

You can read those words from Uriah Smith and still not back down here?

"The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits"

Rome has been called the city of Seven Hills since before the days of Christ but you know better right? Man I am so tired. Lord please open their eyes, PLEASE.

EVEN IN WIKIPEDIA they have an entry called "Seven Hills of Rome" and in another they say "Rome was traditionally called the City of Seven Hills" in the time of Christ, but you think you change history? Children sing songs of the seven hills of Rome.

The Seven Hills of Rome (Italian: Sette colli di Roma [ˈsɛtte ˈkɔlli di ˈroːma], Latin: Septem montes Romae) east of the river Tiber form the geographical heart of Rome, within the walls of the ancient city.

From Wiki;

The seven hills are:

Aventine Hill (Latin, Aventinus; Italian, Aventino)
Caelian Hill (Caelius, Celio)
Capitoline Hill (Capitolinus, Campidoglio)
Esquiline Hill (Esquilinus, Esquilino)
Palatine Hill (Palatinus, Palatino)
Quirinal Hill (Quirinalis, Quirinale)
Viminal Hill (Viminalis, Viminale)

The Vatican Hill (Latin Collis Vaticanus) lying northwest of the Tiber... (is) not counted among the traditional Seven Hills.

The fallen church SITS on the city that reigns over the kings of the earth. What city is called the IMPERIAL CITY?

The prophecy says "the woman you saw is that great CITY" but you change the bible to fit your interpretation? SHAME on YOU!

James, you still seem stuck on "heads".

Some questions you need to answer.

Why does the 7 count start at 1929?

If there are 3 phases, then please list the "heads" of the other phases, how the 5th was wounded and healed in each phase.

If Ellen White saw the 5th head wounded and it was healed, why restart the count?

You say OUT OF means not out of but from elsewhere. What would it say if it really did mean he comes out of Rome and not out of "Argentina, South America;"?

This OUT OF bit is enough to reject the whole thing. And that's where I was no longer interested in finishing it.

Finally semi-rational questions that can be answered without abuse.

First how did the Pope become a secular KING?

"When the early church became corrupted by departing from the simplicity of the gospel and accepting heathen rites and customs, she lost the Spirit and power of God; and in order to control the consciences of the people, she sought the support of the secular power. The result was the papacy, a church that controlled the power of the state and employed it to further her own ends, especially for the punishment of “heresy.” In order for the United States to form an image of the beast, the religious power must so control the civil government that the authority of the state will also be employed by the church to accomplish her own ends. {GC 443.2}

Question; What happened to the secular power of the Papal HEAD when the Pope was taken hostage and he died in exile?

Answer; The Pope lost his title of KING when Napoleon took Pius VI hostage and he died in exile, losing his secular power which is addressed in literally dozens of quotes from the Spirit of Prophecy.

Question; When did the pope become a KING again?

Answer; In 1929 when Mussolini gave him his title back by making the Vatican a SOVEREIGN STATE once again.

But this might too much for you to comprehend (leave it in Daryl)

Kland says "James, you still seem stuck on "heads"."

But when the super majority of people are wrong about this issue and have disregarded the teachings of the pioneers don't you think God would have them corrected? (Not you of course, you're perfect)

But since you continue to listen to the voices that would destroy our church and you are still here teaching lies, I have to continue.

Pay very close attention to this since it is obvious you do not get it, and probably never will.

"In the seventeenth of Revelation is foretold the destruction of all the churches who corrupt themselves by idolatrous devotion to the service of the papacy, those who have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. [Revelation 17:1-4 quoted.] {7BC 983.3}
Thus is represented the papal power, which with all deceivableness of unrighteousness, by outside attraction and gorgeous display, deceives all nations; promising them, as did Satan our first parents, all good to those who receive its mark, and all harm to those who oppose its fallacies. The power which has the deepest inward corruption will make the greatest display, and will clothe itself with the most elaborate signs of power. The Bible plainly declares that this covers a corrupt and deceiving wickedness. “Upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon the Great, The Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth.” {7BC 983.4}
What is it that gives its kingdom to this power? Protestantism, a power which, while professing to have the temper and spirit of a lamb and to be allied to Heaven, speaks with the voice of a dragon. It is moved by a power from beneath (Letter 232, 1899). {7BC 983.5}


Gee, where in there do you see anything about anything else but the Papacy and Protestants?

OUR PROPHET says Revelation 17 is about the destruction of the fallen protestant churches and the papacy. You want to call her a liar?

Why don't you pray and research?

Young's Literal Translation;

Rev 17:11 "and the beast that was, and is not, he also is eighth, and out of the seven he is, and to destruction he doth go away.

John was taken to the time of the sixth king in the vision. So at that time Bergoglio was not in Rome yet. But that king JPII re-established the Jesuits in Rome. So Bergoglio would be OUT OF the territory of Rome (Europe) at the time of the vision.

The word that is translate "out of" is ἐκ

ἐκ; a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or remote):

The prophecy says;

17:11 and the beast that was, and is not, he also is eighth, and out of the seven (hills) he is, and to destruction he doth go away.

Mrs White said the Jesuits were the power designed by the Papacy to destroy Protestants in the Dark Ages, they are "the beast that was".

So when the prophecy says the eighth king is the restoration of that beast, and at the time of the vision, the reign of the sixth papal king after the healing, he is "OUT of" Rome at that time, this fits perfectly with BerGOGlio being the first Jesuit Pope.

The prophecy of the 8 kings is designed to see peculiar elements to each kings reign, to identify them, or else everyone will be left in ignorance to come up with their own conclusions and this is NOT the intent of the Holy Spirit who is calling us to be of ONE MIND!

The prophecy is very important but people like you want to stay in ignorance and lose the blessing of the warning.

What are the odds that the sixth king (JPII) was also the Pope who brought the Protestants to ecumenism, and asked our president to overthrow Communism, and who reestablished the Jesuits in Rome.

AND; the seventh Papal king retired so he "must remain a short time" AFTER his reign.

AND the eighth king is a Jesuit who was OUT of Rome during the time of the sixth king?

What are the odds?

Jesus was asked when the end would be and He said "where the CORPSE is the eagles will gather" and the Jesuits motto is Perende ac Cadaver" calling themselves a CORPSE. And you think is all coincidence?

Here is irrefutable evidence of who the seven heads are, and the eighth.

Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. (here comes the explanation)

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and out of the seven he is, and goeth into perdition.


"The beast that was and is not" is mentioned here three times in this one verse. AND the same verse says this beast is also this eighth king, and this eighth king leads the world to perdition. So who is the beast that was and is not? I can prove everything God showed me from ONE book. The Great Controversy.

"Said the angel of the Lord: “The holy city [the true church] shall they tread under foot forty and two months. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth....And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.” [Revelation 11:2-11.] {GC88 266.1}

“When they shall have finished [are finishing] their testimony.” The period when the two witnesses were to prophesy clothed in sackcloth, ended in 1798. As they were approaching the termination of their work in obscurity, war was to be made upon them by the power represented as “the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit.” In many of the nations of Europe the powers that ruled in church and state had for centuries been controlled by Satan through the medium of the papacy. But here is brought to view a new manifestation of satanic power." {GC 268.3}

So according the Spirit of Prophecy "the Beast that was and is not" is the Papacy. PERIOD. So how could this refer to any time prior to the rise of the PAPACY? This proves John was not seeing from the perspective of his day. He was taken in the Spirit to see the future during the time of the sixth king. But the prophecy is not just talking about the Pope becoming a king again but the full revised power that made war against the saints in the Dark ages after the deadly HEAD wound is healed. So even though since 1929 the pope was again considered a KING the persecuting power of the Papacy had not been reestablished yet in the time of the sixth king "John Paul II".

"It was apostasy that led the early church to seek the aid of the civil government, and this prepared the way for the development of the papacy—the beast. Said Paul: “There” shall “come a falling away, ... and that man of sin be revealed.” 2 Thessalonians 2:3. So apostasy in the church will prepare the way for the image to the beast." {GC 443.4}

So according to this quote the BEAST arose when the religious powers sought the aid of civil government. So when the church had gained civil power once again they came out of the wilderness and became a beast, which occurred in 1929. This is also when the popes became a KING again. But then after the papacy was reestablished, the sixth king would call on the aid of civil leaders. Oh my, how conspicuous that the sixth king John Paul II came to America to "seek the aid of the civil Government" through Ronald Reagan to overthrow the USSR in 1980.

But this was not yet the beast restored because that happens when the eighth king comes who just so happens to be a JESUIT the persecuting power of the Papacy. And what did he just do? He came to ask the aid of our civil governments world wide.

"The infliction of the deadly (head) wound points to the abolition of the papacy in 1798. After this, says the prophet, “His deadly wound was healed; and all the world wondered after the beast.” Paul states plainly that the man of sin will continue until the second advent. [2 Thessalonians 2:8.] To the very close of time he will carry forward his work of deception. And the Revelator declares, also referring to the papacy, “All that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life.” [Revelation 13:8.] In both the Old and the New World, papacy will receive homage in the honor paid to the Sunday institution, that rests solely upon the authority of the Romish Church. {GC88 578.3}

"At this time the order of the Jesuits was created, the most cruel, unscrupulous, and powerful of all the champions of popery. Cut off from earthly ties and human interests, dead to the claims of natural affection, reason and conscience wholly silenced, they knew no rule, no tie, but that of their order, and no duty but to extend its power. (See Appendix.) The gospel of Christ had enabled its adherents to meet danger and endure suffering, undismayed by cold, hunger, toil, and poverty, to uphold the banner of truth in face of the rack, the dungeon, and the stake. To combat these forces, Jesuitism inspired its followers with a fanaticism that enabled them to endure like dangers, and to oppose to the power of truth all the weapons of deception. There was no crime too great for them to commit, no deception too base for them to practice, no disguise too difficult for them to assume. Vowed to perpetual poverty and humility, it was their studied aim to secure wealth and power, to be devoted to the overthrow of Protestantism, and the re-establishment of the papal supremacy. {GC 234.2}

"The Jesuits rapidly spread themselves over Europe, and wherever they went, there followed a revival of popery. {GC 235.1}
To give them greater power, a bull was issued re-establishing the inquisition." (See Appendix below.)

Page 234. Jesuitism.—For a statement concerning the origin, the principles, and the purposes of the “Society of Jesus,” as outlined by members of this order, see a work entitled Concerning Jesuits, edited by the Rev. John Gerard, S.J., and published in London, 1902, by the Catholic Truth Society. In this work it is said, “The mainspring of the whole organization of the Society is a spirit of entire obedience: ‘Let each one,’ writes St. Ignatius, ‘persuade himself that those who live under obedience ought to allow themselves to be moved and directed by divine Providence through their superiors, just as though they were a dead body(CORPSE), which allows itself to be carried anywhere and to be treated in any manner whatever, or as an old man’s staff, which serves him who holds it in his hand in whatsoever way he will.’ {GC 686.4}
“This absolute submission is ennobled by its motive, and should be, continues the ... founder, ‘prompt, joyous and persevering; ... The obedient religious accomplishes joyfully that which his superiors have confided to him for the general good, assured that thereby he corresponds truly with the divine will.’”—The Comtesse R. de Courson, in Concerning Jesuits, page 6. {GC 686.5}

Jesus said that the end would come when the "CORPSE" is in power. And how conspicuous that the eighth king is a CORPSE.

This is a faithful witness. Anyone who argues with this from now on will NEVER see the kingdom of God.

I understand your point, James. Doug Batchelor makes the same point in his latest movie. But, that is at best a secondary application of the "seven hills on which the woman sits".

Mountains in the Bible are not applied that way! Mt. Zion for instance. So, these seven mountains must be large dominating types of nations or countries that had some direct relationship with God's people. The Jews before and up to Christ, and Christians after Christ left the earth.

Also, these prophecies cover a much larger time frame than 1929 until our day! There isn't any way to fit everything into that time frame.

So, let's live up to the light we have up to our day.

So you obviously do not know what William Millers eleventh rule of prophetic interpretation is.

11. How to know when a word is used figuratively: If it makes good sense as it stands, and does no violence to the simple laws of nature, then it must be understood literally; if not, figuratively. Revelation 12:1,2;17:3-7

or how about thirteen?

13. To know whether we have the true historical event for the fulfillment of a prophecy: If you find every word of the prophecy (after the figures are understood) is literally fulfilled, then you may know that your history is the true event. But if one word lacks a fulfillment, then you must look for another event, or wait its future development. For God takes care that history and prophecy doth agree, so that the true, believing children of God may never be ashamed. Psalms 21:5; Isaiah 14:17-19; 1 Peter 2:6; Revelation 17:17; Acts 3:18

So when I was looking for the eighth king and his fulfillment and Francis was elected, who is a Jesuit and this fits with the prophecy after looking for him it harmonized with what I was looking for it fit.

But here is a better way of presenting a certain obvious rule to me.

When the prophecy interprets itself like saying "the waters you saw are people" the translation is given, and you cannot take it symbolically from that point on. The waters ARE people (by the way that is the same chapter as what we are discussing) So when the same chapter says "the heads you saw ARE seven hills AND seven kings" the interpretation is given and the interpretation cannot be taken symbolically any more. So the seven heads ARE seven kings from the seven hills and no one will ever change this no matter how much they try, like YOU!

I'm Ba-aak!


Unfortunately, William Miller (who presumably followed his own rules of interpretation, which are here highlighted) gave us, oh, let's see...
THE GREAT DISAPPOINTMENT!




So a better way of interpreting prophecy is to apply Rule #1 of the JSOT method of prophetic interpretation, which is:
1. Have a pre-conceived notion and find Scriptural or EGW (preferably the later) proof-texts to fit it.

I am so glad the Lord told me certain hearts here and other sites are being softened on this subject. I wait with anticipation the first high profile SDA pastor who gives his support. That is when the world will truly know the power of the testimony of the Remnant.

Wonderful...another test. My God sees your hearts foolish men.



Sent directly by the devil right on time. Is no one else going to defend our faith here? (No because you want to test me)

When I came back last week there were only seven guests here at this time of night on Sabbath, now there is almost 500, and I suspect a lot of them are motivated by the same spirit that we see here in JAK. But thank heavens God has told me some people are seeing the truth despite simple minded naysayers.

Do you know that God gave William Miller dreams supported by the Spirit of Prophecy in the writings of Mrs White? Do you even know of the man with the dust broom prophecy? Probably not because you taunt like the devil here.

Apparently YOU JAK believe William Miller made up those rules to prophetic interpretation, even though he was quoting dozens of other Protestant reformer sources and historical patterns of biblical fulfillment. You obviously forget he saw the fulfillment of the prophecies of Daniel like the reformers, so you prove how ignorant you are in this attack.

In your statement it becomes obvious that you want to poke fun at our pioneer and the great disappointment just to get a rise out of me. But how bout if I pray for God to test you? Would you all like that? You have no idea who you are messing with when you try to hurt the one God sent to warn you. There is no time for these silly games. But you all think we have all the time in the world and prove it by your lackadaisical attitudes (awake sleepers)

But you don't even realize "JAK" that William Miller was blessed by God according to the Spirit of Prophecy, so you have just proven that you are not a true Seventh Day Adventist.



The Great Disappointment in 1844 was prophesied by God in Revelation, so "William Miller's method" of interpretation is ordained by God to get him that far, so he must have been right with the will of God. And since the Spirit of Prophecy harmonizes with what God showed him it must be you who doesn't know what he's talking about.

You have the infamous duty of being the one who persecutes the remnant. Which has just been proven in your statement.





But you know better than this man of sterling character who was blessed by God?

Good luck with that one. ***** STAFF EDIT *****

Blessings James,

Can you show in the Bible where "kings" represent a pope? Even when the term "little horn" is used, it is still given a little different designation from the other "horns". And this one "little" horn represents many popes down through the centuries.

How do you get a king is a pope? Or a mountain is a pope? Or a head is just one pope? The Bible never says that, not even in Revelation 17.

Who was the head of Gold on the image in Daniel? "You Nebuchadnezzar, you are that head of Gold". So the image first implies the KING or leader of Babylon then Babylon itself.

Daniels beasts cover till Rome comes on the scene. The Spirit of Prophecy says Rome continues to the end. So there are three phases of Rome represented in Revelation 12/ 13 & 17. All three beasts with seven heads and ten horns represent Rome. This is a fundamental principle of Scripture that EVERY SINGLE REFORMER AND PIONEER AGREED ON.

Through the biblical principle of REPEAT AND ENLARGE those three phases of ROME covers three different phases of ROME.

So what is a head in prophecy according to Daniel?

As we have seen the leader of Babylon was the image head, but there are other examples too. Like the Leopard beast which has four heads. WHY FOUR HEADS? Because after the death of Alexander the Great his kingdom was divided between his four generals. FOUR HEADS.

This is the most natural interpretation of the term "head". the leader, or HEAD OF STATE.

ALL OF THE PROTESTANT REFORMERS AGREED Rome had seven forms of Government from the beginning till the popes. They were "Kings" beginning in 753 BC, "Consuls" beginning in 509 BC, "Decemvirs" beginning in 498 BC, "Dictators" beginning in beginning in 451 BC, "Triumvirs" Beginning in 59 BC, "Emperors" beginning in 27 BC, and POPES beginning in 538 AD.

Uriah Smith said that this understanding "is one which has characterized the Adventist movement from the beginning, through the first, second, and third messages, to the present time, and is only beginning within a few years to be called in question...for scholars declared before the Adventist movement began, that Rome had presented to the world, as a unique and marvelous feature of history, seven distinct forms of government. All that the Adventists did, was to say, as the most natural thing in the world, that if Rome did have seven forms of government, the seven heads of the dragon, which was a symbol of Rome, must be designed to represent that fact"

So do you think the pioneers deserve to be held in high enough esteem that this should be accepted?

The seven heads of the beast in Revelation 12 are the seven DIFFERENT FORMS OF ROMAN GOVERNMENT.

But when the seventh head takes over, Revelation 13 repeats and enlarges that form of roman government. So why would the seven heads in Rev 13 continue to illustrate PAST forms of government when the prophetic time periods of the other six head have past?

Prophecy never does that.

Once a kingdom or power has passed in the prophetic timeline the prophecies move on so the heads evolve. So when the seventh form of government comes the seven heads cover the complete lines of popes till the end of time.

But then head wound comes when the POPE is taken hostage and died in exile and the power of his government is taken away.

So the third phase of Rome picks up where the second phase left off. Then individual characteristics are given to the LAST EIGHT PAPAL KINGS once the pope becomes a KING again.

Simple really and you guys make it impossible to understand with all your conjecture and supposition. This is on YOUR heads.

Ahh!
Good to see you posting here again JSOT.

***** STAFF EDIT *****

Now, Daryl, that changed the intent of the post...

James wrote;

"Daniels beasts cover till Rome comes on the scene. The Spirit of Prophecy says Rome continues to the end. So there are three phases of Rome represented in Revelation 12/ 13 & 17. All three beasts with seven heads and ten horns represent Rome. This is a fundamental principle of Scripture that EVERY SINGLE REFORMER AND PIONEER AGREED ON. " (bold emphasis mine)

But, in Revelation 12, the Bible clearly states that the beast with seven heads and ten horns is Satan! Satan is behind Babylon in all its phases. This is the main reason why God's Remnant Church can't ever be Babylon. God's Remnant Church has God as its foundation while Babylon has Satan as its foundation.

So, whoever may believe differently on this point, you have the right to believe what you want. But, that doesn't make what you believe to be right. The Bible clearly states that the beast is Satan in Revelation 12, and that beast is always Satan.

Now, how is Satan representing himself and through whom? Babylon! And through all the representations of Babylon down through the ages. Now, Rome is the most prominent of these representations and will be the head of the three-fold union of Babylon in the future. But, it is a representation of Babylon all the same.

James wrote;

"So what is a head in prophecy according to Daniel?

As we have seen the leader of Babylon was the image head, but there are other examples too. Like the Leopard beast which has four heads. WHY FOUR HEADS? Because after the death of Alexander the Great his kingdom was divided between his four generals. FOUR HEADS.

This is the most natural interpretation of the term "head". the leader, or HEAD OF STATE."

Excellent point, but, misapplied.

All four of these generals formed four different nations! They were no longer just Greece, they all came from Greece though. Remember, in Daniel 11, it was from this divide of the Greek Empire that the king of the North and South come on the scene.

Never does multiple heads or kings applied to one and the same nation. Even with Rome!

James wrote;

"ALL OF THE PROTESTANT REFORMERS AGREED Rome had seven forms of Government from the beginning till the popes. They were "Kings" beginning in 753 BC, "Consuls" beginning in 509 BC, "Decemvirs" beginning in 498 BC, "Dictators" beginning in beginning in 451 BC, "Triumvirs" Beginning in 59 BC, "Emperors" beginning in 27 BC, and POPES beginning in 538 AD.

Uriah Smith said that this understanding "is one which has characterized the Adventist movement from the beginning, through the first, second, and third messages, to the present time, and is only beginning within a few years to be called in question...for scholars declared before the Adventist movement began, that Rome had presented to the world, as a unique and marvelous feature of history, seven distinct forms of government. All that the Adventists did, was to say, as the most natural thing in the world, that if Rome did have seven forms of government, the seven heads of the dragon, which was a symbol of Rome, must be designed to represent that fact"

So do you think the pioneers deserve to be held in high enough esteem that this should be accepted?

The seven heads of the beast in Revelation 12 are the seven DIFFERENT FORMS OF ROMAN GOVERNMENT."

I am not aware of any example in the Bible where heads and mountains are treated this way! I believe Uriah Smith is wrong if this is what he taught. There were multiple kings in Medo-Persia, yet, Medo-Persia only counts for one metal or beast. And Medo-Persia is counted as a beast in Daniel 7 and 8.

This idea of seven forms of government makes for a good counterfeit, but, that is all. Rome is counted in two heads, numbers 4 and 5, and then is part of Babylon in the end of time. And the prominence of Rome even now can't be missed. This will have to do.

Here are the 7/8 kings from Revelation 17;

1) Babylon
2) Medo-Persia
3) Greece
4) Imperial Rome (used by Satan in Revelation 12)
5) Papal Rome (little horn from Daniel 7 and 8)
5) Papal Rome (first beast, leopard-like in Revelation 13)
6) Lamb-like two horn beast with Dragon mouth (USA, 1798 to the present time)
7) Image of the Beast (third beast in Revelation 13 and ten horns in Revelation 17)
8) Babylon (Papacy, Apostate Protestantism and Spiritualism w/ Papacy as head)

And I would say this is absolute because the Bible says so.

Are you a Seventh Day Adventist? Have you even read the Great Controversy? Required reading for any SDA!!!! Because this is elementary and I wish someone here would step in and give you council, but it seems no one else is up to the challenge. Or you are continuing to test me. God hasn't that prayer yet I guess.

In the prophecy of Revelation 12 we find the dragon ready to kill the man child, Christ Jesus. Who tried to kill Jesus at His birth? ROME. Who nailed Him to a cross? ROME!



So you are half correct. But I was right on, unless you want to tell everyone here you don't believe in the Spirit of Prophecy, to which I would say "why are you here?"

WRONG!!!! We are not talking about a nation but an EMPIRE made up of many nations. The KINGDOM was divided into four parts.




If you can wrap your mind around that for a minute and digest it, then apply that symbolic structure here;



THE PAPACY!!!! Which symbolically is also Babylon the Great the Mother of Harlots!

A good counterfeit? You test my patience.

The Protestant REFORMERS and the Seventh Day Adventist PIONEERS said these things under the leading and guidance of the Holy Spirit during the three angels messages and you say this is a counterfeit? PLEASE GOD HELP ME!!!!

Blessings James,

In my last post, just above the post of yours I am responding to, I listed Imperial Rome as #4. I also mentioned in parentheses that Satan used Imperial Rome in Revelation 12. I guess you could have missed that though.

Also, Rome is also a representation of Babylon.

1) In 1 Peter 5:13, Peter mentions Babylon and this is the church in Rome.

2) In GC88 237, Sister White directly compares Rome and the Papacy with Babylon.

3) Revelation 12 leaves no room for doubt that the primary meaning of the Beast is that "old serpent called the Devil and Satan".

I would say I am correct on these points.

(bold emphasis mine)

If you look at the list I posted, Imperial Rome is one head all to itself and Papal Rome is one head all to itself. There isn't multiple heads for one nation!

Even with Greece, the one horn split into four horns to represent the division of Greece. Or the leopard went from having one head to four heads. You don't have multiple heads or horns or kings to represent one nation in Bible Prophecy.

If I am so wrong, please, demonstrate from the Bible and Ellen White my error.

Is Babylon literally still in existence? Can you tell me the name of their current king? Do they ambassadors in the UN so I can do some research? You are so smart I need to learn from you I guess. I must be terribly mistaken I thought we are in the 21st Century.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

It is not possible once we are sealed.

If Uriah Smith, who was close and personal to Mrs White, wrote in a book Mrs White said was blessed by God, said that EVERY pioneer of the SDA church believed the seven heads on the beast are the seven different forms of ROMAN government, is that not good enough for you?

But the Spirit of Prophecy says, "This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while. The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction." (Rev. 17:9-11)

The Angel of the Lord clearly and unequivocally states that the heads are NOT forms of Roman government but kings: seven in all, and an eighth, belonging to ONE system of government.

///

That is the third phase of Rome when there there appears an eighth. HE is OUT OF the seven HILLS of Rome. Read the original text it doesn't say he is OF but OUT OF. So Rome was the origin of the "beast that was and is not" The Jesuits who were once excluded and reintroduced by the sixth king John Paul II. AND the eighth king came from OUT of the mountains of Rome. The first pope ever elected from OUT OF Europe.

God showed me that the seven heads on the first phase of the Roman empire are the seven different forms of ROMAN government. That is Revelation 12.

Then the seventh head of the Dragon beast, the Papacy, becomes the beast itself so why would the seven heads continue to be seven forms of ROMAN Government in the second phase of Rome in Rev 13? REPEAT AND ENLARGE takes that head and amplifies it. The heads become symbolic of the complete line of Popes in Revelation 17.

Then the third phase gets specific about the last seven popes, then there is an eighth. Perfectly in line with prophetic principles yet you will argue.

Blessings James,

I am not talking about literal Babylon, but, spiritual Babylon.

Just a little history I believe is needed here. Nimrod founds the City of Babel which becomes Babylon. This is the seat of Satan on the earth. But, Babylon is the one nation that searched out who turn the sundial back ten degrees. (remember Judah and Babylon.) Then God promises to make Babylon a desolation because of its wickedness. God is good to His word and today the ancient city of Babylon lay in ruins.

With Satan's seat destroyed, he needs to find another and he chooses to take it out of Christianity. This is the City of Rome. This is why Rome has been so prominent these last 2000 years or so.

So, now it is the plan of Satan to get his Babylon back by controlling the entire world. It is about Babylon! All these other nations have been different representations of Babylon down through these many centuries. This includes Rome as well.

I hope you understand my point now.

Did Ellen White ever write that the seven heads on the beasts in Revelation were the seven forms of government of Rome?

All the pioneers did, and she was a pioneer, and here is what she said.... "The “man of sin,” which is also styled “the mystery of iniquity,” “the son of perdition,” and “that wicked,” represents the papacy..." {GC 356.1}

The eighth head is the Son of PERDITION.

Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

"I saw the rapidity with which this delusion (Ghosts) was spreading. A train of cars was shown me, going with the speed of lightning. The angel bade me look carefully. I fixed my eyes upon the train. It seemed that the whole world was on board, that there could not be one left. Said the angel, “They are binding in bundles ready to burn.” Then he showed me the conductor, who appeared like a stately, fair person, whom all the passengers looked up to and reverenced. I was perplexed and asked my attending angel who it was. He said, “It is Satan. He is the conductor in the form of an angel of light. He has taken the world captive. They are given over to strong delusions, to believe a lie, that they may be damned. This agent, the next highest in order to him, is the engineer, and other of his agents are employed in different offices as he may need them, and they are all going with lightning speed to perdition.” {EW 88.2}

So if the eighth king of Rev 17 is the son of Perdition and Mrs White said the son of perdition is the Papacy then who is this "stately fair PERSON" in the quote above? It's the eighth papal king. No other entity fits this. And no one will ever be able to convince me otherwise because God showed me, but none of you seem to get that.

“It is one of the leading doctrines of Romanism that the pope is the visible HEAD of the universal church of Christ, invested with supreme authority over bishops and pastors in all parts of the world. More than this, the pope has been given the very titles of Deity. He has been styled “Lord God the Pope”, and has been declared infallible. He demands the homage of all men. The same claim urged by Satan in the wilderness of temptation is still urged by him through the Church of Rome, and vast numbers are ready to yield him homage.” {Great Controversy pg 50.3}

Right there she calls the pope the HEAD of the universal church and you will all scoff. The pope is the HEAD.

"And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death..." {Rev 13:3} This is the seven headed beast of Rev 13. One of his HEADS was wounded to death. This is the best evidence of who the seven heads are PLEASE READ CAREFULLY.

"We looked upon the bust of Pius VI... who was led into captivity and died in captivity. Here was the one marked in history who received the deadly wound. His heart is encased in the marble monument beneath where the bust is located. We felt rather solemn as we looked upon the monument of this man noted in prophecy." (Letter 110, November 4, 1886.)

THIS MAN noted in prophecy was the HEAD who received the deadly wound. This is it. If you don't agree then you do not support the Spirit of Prophecy. Case closed.

You misinterpret the Holy Word.

The Spirit of Prophecy unequivocally states, "This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while. The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction." (Rev. 17:9-11)

1. Seven hills identifies the beast, geographically.
2. Seven kings (seven individual men, ruling consecutively) identifies the beast, politically.

It is not proper for you now to invent your own elaborately convoluted interpretation and then claim Divine revelation contrary to scripture. Be humble.

///

Blessings James,

You wrote; "Right there she calls the pope the HEAD of the universal church and you will all scoff. The pope is the HEAD."

No. She does not call the Pope the Head of all the churches. She says the Pope claims himself to be the head of all the churches. Not the same thing at all.

Well, the seven heads are not the seven forms of government of Rome.

God Bless.

Scripture does not say seven hills, it says seven MOUNTAINS.
oros #3735

The word for "hill" is bounos #1015


Kingdoms are called "mountains" in scripture
Israel is said to be the "Lord's mountain" Jeremiah 17:3l Joel 2:1
Babylon is called a "destroying mountain" Jeremiah 51:25
Edom is called the "mount of Esau" Obadiah 1:8-9
God's kingdom is called a "holy mountain" Isaiah 11:9; 65:29

So the seven heads or mountains could be a succession of seven kingdoms.
Or they could be a succession of seven distinct types of government of one power (Rome)


I don't think the heads are individual kings or individual popes.


The eighth is the beast itself.
This beast rose out of the bottomless pit (see also Rev. 11:7) this denotes a satanic power, and since the eighth is not another head but the beast itself, I believe it is Satan.

I also believe Satan and his angels will manifest themselves in very deceptive ways BEFORE probation closes. He does it to keep as many people as possible from believing truth and being saved, it would be rather pointless after probation closes, for by then everyone will already have made their final choice.

It is NOT for you to interpret the interpretation.

What John saw was a woman sitting on a beast. According to the Spirit of Prophecy, the Woman is "Babylon" and the beast is such that its heads symbolize BOTH where the city is AND its rulers, one of which was ruling in John's day.

As it is written, "This calls for a mind with wisdom.
1. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.
2. They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while. The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction." (Rev. 17:9-11)

1. Seven hills identifies the beast, geographically.
2. Seven kings (seven individual men, ruling consecutively) identifies the beast, politically.

You have chosen to say mountains instead of hills. It doesn't matter.

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James - did you not just interpret the interpretation? Yes, you did!

I understand what you are saying, but you misunderstood my intent. The word Catholic means universal. That is why he is HEAD of the universal (Catholic) church. And now that the daughters are following her, he is head of their churches too, even though they don't know that is his claim.

It's funny that Mr Peterson is taking words that God gave me and twisting them. (Look at the record here) God showed me that the interpretation is given in Revelation 17:9-11 so it cannot be taken symbolically. So the seven heads ARE seven hills AND seven kings. Then he puts his own spin on it to get me to argue against him.

And the evidence for that is ... ?

///

http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=138644&Searchpage=1&Main=7505&Words=%22the+interpretation+is+given%22&Search=true#Post138644

If you do an advanced word search you will see exactly how many times I have said those exact words here "the interpretation has been given" or "The interpretation is given". Those words were given to me on my first blog about the seven heads of Rev 17 back in 2007 by God while I was writing them, and here you are using those same words and coming to a completely differing conclusion. It made itself known by the Spirit when I read your last post. Please don't argue against this and make it worse for yourself.

Just for the sake of clarity;

Revelation 17:11; And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. (bold emphasis mine)

We have seen it said that there are not eight, but, only seven. This smacks right in the face of the Bible. The Bible is clear that there are seven heads, but, eight earthly powers. To have a list of only seven or less earthly powers is nonsense! there must be eight for sure.

1) Babylon
2) Medo-Persia
3) Greece
4) Imperial Rome
5) Papal Rome (Little horn in Daniel 7 and beast of Revelation 13:1-10)
6) Lamb-like beast with dragon mouth (USA from 1798 until its NSL)
7) Image of the Beast (Ten horns of Revelation 17 and False Prophet)
8) Babylon (Revelation 16:12 to the end of Revelation 18)

There can't be less than eight. Period.

I had thought at one point that the beast of Rev 13 that had the mortal wound but revived was the same as 8th entity of Rev 17 that was and is not. But that could be wrong. I think you're saying they are different right? the mortally wounded beast of Rev 13 and the eighth entity of Rev 17?

So I understand you, you're also saying that 1 to 7 are the 7 heads and that the eighth is the whore who rides the beast because she is "Babylon the Great". If that's what you're saying, it seems reasonable.

But how about this: The seven are concurrent religious and/or political entities all in submission to Babylon because she is riding the beast. At the time Babylon first falls under judgement, five are fallen or in submission to the whore. By the time her judgment is finished two more will become her allies.

By the way, I posted earlier the idea that the heads are political but the mountains are religious entities.

With all due respect Mark. Your post doesn't make much sense.

So, let me explain again my beliefs here.

All of these seven heads and eight earthly powers either are representatives of Babylon or are Babylon.

We know from 1 Peter 5:13 that "Babylon" represented Rome in the days of the Apostles. In this case of Peter, we would be talking about Imperial Rome. Sister White calls the Papacy Babylon as well.

So, when you say the Papacy in the beast that is, and is not, and so on, if you don't understand the Papacy to represent Babylon, then you have missed a crucial point.

So then, Babylon will come full circle in the near future.

But, Babylon in these last days is made up of three parts. The Papacy, Apostate Protestantism and Spiritualism, with the Papacy at the head.

I hope I was clear.

Reread Revelation 17 then answer the questions below: Choose one answer from the multiple choices.

1. Who has the name Babylon?
a. The woman
b. The beast
c. One of the heads

2. What are the heads called?
a. Churches
b. mountains
c. Popes

3. Each of the seven heads also has a
a. church
b. king
c. pope

4. The heads also have horns which represent
a. churches
b. kings
c. popes

5. Which of the following is a grievous sin of the harlot Babylon?
a. fornicating with kings (spiritual adultery with kings of the earth)
b. dividing up into many denominations
c. selling purple

6. What is the Relationship between the Harlot Babylon and the seven headed, ten horned beast?
a. The woman reigns over the kings (heads and horns)
b. The woman and the heads/horns/beast are the same
c. The heads/horns/beast reign over the woman

7. How will the beast with its horns finally do to the harlot woman?
a. They are the same so they simply suffer the same fate
b. The harlot destroys the beast
c. The beast first supports the harlot then, using it's horns, destroys her.





Answers:
1. a
Rev. 17:5 And upon her forehead [the harlot woman) was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT

2. b
The seven heads are seven mountains,

3. b
17:10 And there are seven kings:

4. b
17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings

5. a
17:2-4 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication....made drunk with the wine of her fornication....filthiness of her fornication:

6.a
17:18 the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth

7. c
17:7 the beast that carrieth her,
17:16 the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate

I've likely said some of this before but my understanding is evolving:

Rev. 17 is a detailed description of the judgment of the Whore, Babylon. Judgment of the whore starts when the Woman rides a beast with seven heads, five of whom she controls, one, the sixth who exists when her judgment starts but is still independent of her control and a seventh that is formed later and comes under her domination. These seven entities have both a political (kings) and religious (mountains) aspect and depict an incestuous relationship of church and state.

The eighth power is "of the seven"; that is, the eighth is similar to the seven or closely related to them in some way but the whore is never able to control this power. In fact it is this eighth entity God uses to judge the whore. It aligns itself with the 10 kings to unseat the whore, burning her flesh with fire.

The whore is the same as the image of the beast in the second half of Revelation 13. The eighth entity is aligned with the ten horns who were formerly dominated by the Whore entity. These turn on her - possibly European nations and Asian nations. Notice these are not said to be mountains so they are political units - nations rather than religions.

The sixth plague, Rev 16, fills in more of the picture and also Rev 18.

Interesting observations, Mark.


Rev. 17 is a detailed description of the judgment of the Whore, Babylon.

Agreed!

Judgment of the whore starts when the Woman rides a beast with seven heads,

Interesting -- I know that judgment begins when she (again) rides on the beast -- ie, gets control of the political identities -- did judgment begin before that?


five of whom she controls,

Here I have a few questions arise in my mind.
Do you equate "have fallen" as having fallen under her control?
Were they under her control in the past? Or do you think them contemporary (as in all operating at same time)

(have fallen) "pipto" G4098 can mean
--basically to fall down
--descend from a higher place to a lower
--to fall under judgment
--to be prostrated, fall prostrate
--rendering homage or worship
--to fall down as in falling into ruin
--come to an end, disappear, cease
--to lose authority, no longer have force

We've always associated the term in that verse with the latter definitions -- as in a nation "falling" or coming to an end.

I am hesitant to think of these heads as contemporary with each other. The beast seems to have one design, one general dominating scheme at a time with which to deceive the people on earth.
Five fell, using the same word and thought as Rev. 14:8
Babylon is fallen, G4098 is fallen, G4098 that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.


one, the sixth who exists when her judgment starts but is still independent of her control

I tend to agree here --
Seems the whore's judgment began in 1798 and indeed the political element was largely independent of her control but it will/is coming under her control again as she works to regain her power. And when she does she will reap the full judgment on her schemes.


and a seventh that is formed later and comes under her domination.

Yes, the present one will be followed by the last, or seventh one who is to remain for a little while, but is then doomed like the others.

The number seven is a symbolic number. It is actually a symbolic number of holiness! Yet we are told in scripture that it is blasphemous holiness (full of blasphemy) -- in other words a counterfeit and isn't holy at all.


These seven entities have both a political (kings) and religious (mountains) aspect and depict an incestuous relationship of church and state.

Agreed!

Finally the beast himself is an eighth and is out of the seven. This reads as though the beast has to make itself "an eighth" in order to help out when it comes to its last head king, in a final effort to seduce the world and maintain control of the earth.

Re:1798, the mortal wound was struck then but according to the Second Angel, Babylon isn't fallen until she makes all nations drink her impure cup of falsehoods. When she does this, her hour of judgment begins, imo, and this is what's depicted in Rev 17, her hour or time of judgment. We'll see.

On a different but related topic that I noticed on another thread, or was it this one?, anyway, yesterday as I listened to Jame's White's Word to the Little Flock I noticed he said that the bulk of the magician's arts were demonstrated during the plagues - they mimicked many of them - and so JW felt that the final manifestation of Satan and his miracles would likely also be during the plagues.