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I knew it would come, but the manner and swiftness was still a shock and left me stunned, as even media sources who don't touch anything to do with God or religion were forced to address this. We have been brought up for all the world to see. the time has come, are we ready....
"Having lost his Republican frontrunner status to Ben Carson, presidential candidate Donald Trump sought to compare his Presbyterian faith with that of his rival's Seventh-Day Adventist affiliation.
At a campaign rally in Jacksonville, Florida, on Saturday, Trump said, "I love Iowa. And, look, I don't have to say it, I'm Presbyterian. Can you believe it? Nobody believes I'm Presbyterian. I'm Presbyterian. I'm Presbyterian. I'm Presbyterian."
Trump added, according to The Washington Post, "Boy, that's down the middle of the road folks, in all fairness. I mean, Seventh-day Adventist, I don't know about. I just don't know about."
Asked about his intention, Trump spokeswoman Hope Hicks later said, "I think the remark speaks for itself."
Last week's Des Moines Register/Bloomberg Politics Iowa Poll showed Carson at 28 percent, leading Trump, a billionaire businessman, by 9 percentage points, with the rest of candidates trailing far behind.
And its being commented on and Adventism discussed in many media sources. "Donald Trump last Saturday (Oct. 24) delivered a oblique judgment of the neurosurgeon’s faith:
“I’m Presbyterian, boy, that’s down the middle of the road, folks, in all fairness. I mean, Seventh-day Adventist, I don’t know about. I just don’t know about.”
In painting a religion as unknown, Trump seemed to suggest there must be something amiss about Carson’s faith. Carson has credited his Christian faith, and Adventism in particular, for shaping his worldview and contributing to his success in life.
Trump probably isn’t alone in not knowing much, or anything, about the Seventh-day Adventist Church, a Christian movement organized 152 years ago in Battle Creek, Mich., which claims 19 million members around the world, of which a little more than one million live in the U.S.
But the church of Carson’s choice — and, since 1999, mine — has already touched the lives of multiple millions, even if they don’t realize it.
Did you have cereal for breakfast? Thank W.K. Kellogg, who along with his brother, physician John Harvey Kellogg, adopted health principles promoted by Ellen G. White, a pioneering co-founder of the Adventist movement. White advocated for a vegetarian diet, and it was the Kelloggs who pressed corn into flakes that could be served with (preferably soy) milk for breakfast. (Until he entered the presidential race, Carson was a director of the Kellogg company.) http://www.religionnews.com/2015/10/26/b...ife-commentary/
"Does Donald Trump think Ben Carson is not a Christian?...Is Donald Trump implicitly questioning whether Ben Carson is a Christian?He says he isn’t. But if not, why raise the issue of Dr. Carson’s Seventh-day Adventist faith at all?..." http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/De...Christian-video
Re: Adventism brought front and center....
[Re: Rick H]
#177692 10/31/1510:22 AM10/31/1510:22 AM
Seventh Day Adventism seems to be a enigma to many Americans, here is more on how we are viewed...
"Harvard Divinity School Professor David Holland told CBS News that there is "considerable wariness" toward Seventh Day Adventism but not to the degree that a Mormon candidate would face.
"Theologically, Seventh Day Adventism tends to be a bit closer to mainstream Christianity," Holland said.
Seventh Day Adventism is a branch of Christianity that developed in the second half of the 19th Century as an offshoot of the "Millerites," a group of Christians expecting the return of Jesus Christ to Earth in 1844. When Jesus did not return, a Millerite follower named Ellen White claimed to have prophetic visions that helped explain "The Great Disappointment" and served as the basis of Seventh Day Adventism. One of the church's distinguishing features is that it holds Saturday as the Sabbath, rather than Sunday as other branches of Christianity.
"I think for a lot of us, we're not real familiar with the tenets of that faith, but it's a faith that is Biblically driven, and there's nothing odd about it," Steve Scheffler, an Iowa Republican National Committeeman and president of the Iowa Faith & Freedom Coalition (IFFC), told CBS News.
Certainly, when Iowa voters say they like Carson's values, they're considering his faith, Scheffler said -- how could they not? "If a person has a deep religious faith, it tends to mold their political thinking," he said.
Scheffler stressed, however, that voters also like Carson's willingness to take a principled stand for his beliefs. He cited Carson's remarks that he doesn't view the religion of Islam as compatible with American democracy.
"He's not willing to buckle to the political elites within both parties and the press when he thinks he's right," Scheffler said.
Indeed, last week's Des Moines Register poll asked likely GOP caucus-goers whether or not they thought Carson's statement about a potential Muslim president was an "attractive" comment -- 43 percent called it "very attractive," while 30 percent said it was "mostly attractive."
In fact, Carson's statements about Islam could be interpreted as out of step with the philosophy of the Seventh Day Adventist Church, which has historically stressed the importance of the separation of church and state.
In the religion's early days, there were many states that had laws prohibiting work on Sunday. Many Seventh Day Adventists were jailed and faced a degree of persecution because they didn't recognize the Sunday Sabbath, Holland explained.
"From very early on, they were very sensitive to the power of the state," he said. "Ellen White was quite outspoken on this topic and declared that the union of religious and political power would be one of the signs the world was coming to an end."
When Carson announced his 2016 candidacy in May, the Seventh Day Adventist church released an official statement stressing that the church "has a longstanding position of not supporting or opposing any candidate for elected office... based both on our historical position of separation of church and state."
The statement also noted, "The church has worked diligently to protect the religious rights of all people of faith, no matter what their denominational affiliation."
Now that Carson is gaining ground in the polls, voters may have more questions about his faith -- particularly as opponents like Trump call them into question. Goldford noted, however, that Carson brought the scrutiny upon himself by stressing his religious values on the campaign trail." http://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-ben-carsons-seventh-day-adventist-faith-has-helped-his-campaign/
I found site after site explaining Adventist truths to those who were truly seeking to find out more, just amazing.
Last edited by Rick H; 10/31/1510:51 AM.
Re: Adventism brought front and center....
[Re: Rick H]
#177805 11/06/1504:24 PM11/06/1504:24 PM
Having surged to the lead (according to some polls) in the GOP presidential nominee race, Ben Carson may have a problem. As Politico reports, Carson's campaign on Friday admitted that a central point in his inspirational personal story (his application and acceptance into the U.S. Military Academy at West Point) was fabricated. The details are stunning as the big lie (something Hillary would be proud of) has been maintained for years, but his PR people are spinning like crazy...
The U.S. Military Academy at West Point has occupied a central place in Carson’s tale for years. According to a story told in Carson’s book, “Gifted Hands,” the then-17 year old was introduced in 1969 to Gen. William Westmoreland, who had just ended his command of U.S. forces in Vietnam, and the two dined together. That meeting, according to Carson’s telling, was followed by a “full scholarship” to the military academy.
But, as Politico details, West Point, however, has no record of Carson applying, much less being extended admission.
“In 1969, those who would have completed the entire process would have received their acceptance letters from the Army Adjutant General,” said Theresa Brinkerhoff, a spokeswoman for the academy. She said West Point has no records that indicate Carson even began the application process. “If he chose to pursue (the application process) then we would have records indicating such,” she said.
When presented with this evidence, Carson’s campaign conceded the story was false.
“Dr. Carson was the top ROTC student in the City of Detroit,” campaign manager Barry Bennett wrote in an email to POLITICO. “In that role he was invited to meet General Westmoreland. He believes it was at a banquet. He can’t remember with specificity their brief conversation but it centered around Dr. Carson’s performance as ROTC City Executive Officer.”
“He was introduced to folks from West Point by his ROTC Supervisors,” Bennett went on. “They told him they could help him get an appointment based on his grades and performance in ROTC. He considered it but in the end did not seek admission.” This admission comes as serious questions about other points of fact in Carson’s personal narrative are questioned, including the seminal episode in which he claimed to have attempted to stab a close friend.
Similarly, details have emerged that cast doubt on the nature of Carson’s encounter with one of the most prominent military men of that era.
Blessings
Re: Adventism brought front and center....
[Re: Rick H]
#177813 11/06/1508:22 PM11/06/1508:22 PM
ProdigalOne SDA Active Member 2024 Supporting Member 2023
Dedicated Member
Mr. Carson believes the egyptian pyramids were built to store the seven years of grain from Pharoh's dream as interpreted by Joseph.
I have never heard this theory before. Is it possible?
I thought Pharoh only had seven plentiful years to prepare for the great famine? Didn't the pyramids take decades to construct? Aren't they mostly solid with a few passages and chambers? Where would the grain go?
I believe Dr. Carson is incorrect on the pyramids. He's simply ill-informed. He'll have an opportunity, perhaps, to show his humility in adjusting his view as he is enlightened by those more knowledgeable about the construction of the pyramids. It is true that the pyramids have been proven to store and preserve excellent seed samples of grains, but the quantities that would have been required to feed a nation for seven years would not have been accommodated by the pyramids as we know them today. It is possible that more space was available in other pyramids that no longer exist and which may have been more quickly erected, but this would enter into the realm of speculation.
As for a scholarship to West Point, I shouldn't think it is too difficult to get one. I was given one after taking the ASVAB test in my junior year of high school. I didn't want to go there, however, for I realized it likely entailed a commitment to the armed forces for a period of time, and along with that, likely Sabbath problems. Nevertheless, I received many letters from West Point trying to attract me there. Apparently, my math and logic skills were such as would have made me attractive to their cryptology units--at least, that is my guess. Regardless, what kind of scholarship is it when it comes with strings attached? As I didn't view myself to be so deserving of a full scholarship, I took it as something of a ruse to get people to enlist.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Adventism brought front and center....
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#177819 11/06/1511:22 PM11/06/1511:22 PM
I wouldn't be surprised that they are giving scholarships to West Point to entised brilliant people into serving the military Green.
I was reading some more comments about this and it wouldn't surprise me also that mainstream Media(MSM) is the one lying by twisting things around so that the people would loose trust in him in thinking that Ben is a lyer. The thing is people are very gullible and many still believe in everything that MSM says and are unaware that MSM is Mystery Babylon greatest tool to control the sheeple.
Blessings
Re: Adventism brought front and center....
[Re: Rick H]
#177820 11/07/1512:13 AM11/07/1512:13 AM
Thank you, APL. I wonder if back at home in the states (unfortunately well beyond my reach at present) I have any of those West Point letters still. I'm the type that likes to keep such things as mementos at times, but I'm not sure if I might have thrown them away as I had no interest in a military career either. In any case, I believe I recall the language of "full scholarship" being offered to me in them. I think it's the way they present themselves at West Point, trying to attract people.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Adventism brought front and center....
[Re: Rick H]
#177822 11/07/1501:36 AM11/07/1501:36 AM
I see that West Point has used the language of "full scholarship" with others, so there's no need of me mining old letters to find it. Those who attack Dr. Carson over this are actually choosing what they will "see."
The ability to see the truth should never be taken for granted.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Adventism brought front and center....
[Re: ProdigalOne]
#177824 11/07/1504:19 AM11/07/1504:19 AM
Having surged to the lead (according to some polls) in the GOP presidential nominee race, Ben Carson may have a problem. As Politico reports, Carson's campaign on Friday admitted that a central point in his inspirational personal story (his application and acceptance into the U.S. Military Academy at West Point) was fabricated. The details are stunning as the big lie (something Hillary would be proud of) has been maintained for years, but his PR people are spinning like crazy...
The U.S. Military Academy at West Point has occupied a central place in Carson’s tale for years. According to a story told in Carson’s book, “Gifted Hands,” the then-17 year old was introduced in 1969 to Gen. William Westmoreland, who had just ended his command of U.S. forces in Vietnam, and the two dined together. That meeting, according to Carson’s telling, was followed by a “full scholarship” to the military academy.
But, as Politico details, West Point, however, has no record of Carson applying, much less being extended admission.
“In 1969, those who would have completed the entire process would have received their acceptance letters from the Army Adjutant General,” said Theresa Brinkerhoff, a spokeswoman for the academy. She said West Point has no records that indicate Carson even began the application process. “If he chose to pursue (the application process) then we would have records indicating such,” she said.
When presented with this evidence, Carson’s campaign conceded the story was false.
“Dr. Carson was the top ROTC student in the City of Detroit,” campaign manager Barry Bennett wrote in an email to POLITICO. “In that role he was invited to meet General Westmoreland. He believes it was at a banquet. He can’t remember with specificity their brief conversation but it centered around Dr. Carson’s performance as ROTC City Executive Officer.”
“He was introduced to folks from West Point by his ROTC Supervisors,” Bennett went on. “They told him they could help him get an appointment based on his grades and performance in ROTC. He considered it but in the end did not seek admission.” This admission comes as serious questions about other points of fact in Carson’s personal narrative are questioned, including the seminal episode in which he claimed to have attempted to stab a close friend.
Similarly, details have emerged that cast doubt on the nature of Carson’s encounter with one of the most prominent military men of that era.
They are attacking him with a vengeance since he rose in the polls, all this week they have been going over any little thing with a fine toothcomb and twisting it in the worst possible ways. Never run for any political office unless you are prepared for this....I cant wait to see when they ask his views on the 'antichrist', that is where we shall see the strength of his character and honesty......
Re: Adventism brought front and center....
[Re: Rick H]
#177836 11/07/1503:41 PM11/07/1503:41 PM
Anyone accepted to West Point gets a full scholarship. So just an offer to apply implies full scholarship. I know of friends getting these letters repeatedly. Repeatedly because they just ignored them, they were not interested in joining the millitary. There is a difference between an offer and an acceptance. Carson was offered to apply. He never applied.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son!{ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Adventism brought front and center....
[Re: Rick H]
#177975 11/12/1512:35 AM11/12/1512:35 AM
Ok, one person offers a link as "proof" of him lying.
Another person offers a link as "proof" of him not lying.
How does one determine what is "proof"? Better start asking yourself questions:
The one link offers, "This admission". One needs to ask, what admission, admission of what?
"Carson’s campaign conceded the story was false." Did they? What was the story? The second link gives that.
Question everything. Check the links. People lie to you all the time!
Reminds me of something like this Abraham Lincoln said you can never trust quotes.
In politics, the big lie is the norm. That's why Hitler had Goebbels his propaganda chief, to spread the big lie and keep the British, French, and other countries hesitant to act or confused as to his intent.
Re: Adventism brought front and center....
[Re: Rick H]
#179731 03/11/1610:05 PM03/11/1610:05 PM
Here's a very good & nice turn of events for both Ben Carson and Trump. Donald said he likes Ben's views on Health Care and Education. He adds that Ben Carson will be very much involves in those areas for the country.
Ben speaks very nicely in the live Press conference. I think this is a very nice touch the Lord has put into this by bringing these two men together. And who knows, maybe the Lord will bring Adventism health & education gift "front and center".
Ben Carson Endorses The Donald Press Conference - Live Feed
Quote:
Opposites attract? Softly-spoken Dr. Ben Carson is reportedly set to endorse The Donald this morning but Trump's press conference will, we are sure, have more to offer than just that...
As The Hill reports, Trump confirmed the endorsement on Thursday night’s GOP debate, saying Carson "will be very much involved” in advising him on education, calling it Carson’s “expertise.”
The retired neurosurgeon is expected to accompany Trump on the campaign trail as the real estate mogul attempts to cement his lead in Florida ahead of next week’s pivotal primary in the Sunshine State.
Blessings
Re: Adventism brought front and center....
[Re: Elle]
#179814 03/15/1608:56 AM03/15/1608:56 AM
Having surged to the lead (according to some polls) in the GOP presidential nominee race, Ben Carson may have a problem. As Politico reports, Carson's campaign on Friday admitted that a central point in his inspirational personal story (his application and acceptance into the U.S. Military Academy at West Point) was fabricated. The details are stunning as the big lie (something Hillary would be proud of) has been maintained for years, but his PR people are spinning like crazy...
The U.S. Military Academy at West Point has occupied a central place in Carson’s tale for years. According to a story told in Carson’s book, “Gifted Hands,” the then-17 year old was introduced in 1969 to Gen. William Westmoreland, who had just ended his command of U.S. forces in Vietnam, and the two dined together. That meeting, according to Carson’s telling, was followed by a “full scholarship” to the military academy.
But, as Politico details, West Point, however, has no record of Carson applying, much less being extended admission.
“In 1969, those who would have completed the entire process would have received their acceptance letters from the Army Adjutant General,” said Theresa Brinkerhoff, a spokeswoman for the academy. She said West Point has no records that indicate Carson even began the application process. “If he chose to pursue (the application process) then we would have records indicating such,” she said.
When presented with this evidence, Carson’s campaign conceded the story was false.
“Dr. Carson was the top ROTC student in the City of Detroit,” campaign manager Barry Bennett wrote in an email to POLITICO. “In that role he was invited to meet General Westmoreland. He believes it was at a banquet. He can’t remember with specificity their brief conversation but it centered around Dr. Carson’s performance as ROTC City Executive Officer.”
“He was introduced to folks from West Point by his ROTC Supervisors,” Bennett went on. “They told him they could help him get an appointment based on his grades and performance in ROTC. He considered it but in the end did not seek admission.” This admission comes as serious questions about other points of fact in Carson’s personal narrative are questioned, including the seminal episode in which he claimed to have attempted to stab a close friend.
Similarly, details have emerged that cast doubt on the nature of Carson’s encounter with one of the most prominent military men of that era.
What an excellent thread and powerful post.
Yet, God's people seem to have failed again. We need to remember that now that we are in the last generation, God is going to close this out and He only needs 144,000. Which means the vast majority of us could go to hell and Jesus will still come.
We must remember the times in which we live.
Re: Adventism brought front and center....
[Re: APL]
#179815 03/15/1609:03 AM03/15/1609:03 AM
But, for the sake of clarification, this is one reason we should stay out of politics. Unless God directly puts us there, we should not allow the media to have a field day at the truth's expense.
Last edited by Alchemy; 03/15/1609:05 AM.
Re: Adventism brought front and center....
[Re: Alchemy]
#179816 03/15/1601:40 PM03/15/1601:40 PM
A very political move. Donald Trump is not someone I could endorse for President or even as a member of the Seventh-day Adventist Church! I sure hope Mr. Trump repents and is converted.
Re: Adventism brought front and center....
[Re: Elle]
#179831 03/15/1611:40 PM03/15/1611:40 PM
Here's a very good & nice turn of events for both Ben Carson and Trump. Donald said he likes Ben's views on Health Care and Education. He adds that Ben Carson will be very much involves in those areas for the country.
Ben speaks very nicely in the live Press conference. I think this is a very nice touch the Lord has put into this by bringing these two men together. And who knows, maybe the Lord will bring Adventism health & education gift "front and center".
Ben Carson Endorses The Donald Press Conference - Live Feed
Quote:
Opposites attract? Softly-spoken Dr. Ben Carson is reportedly set to endorse The Donald this morning but Trump's press conference will, we are sure, have more to offer than just that...
As The Hill reports, Trump confirmed the endorsement on Thursday night’s GOP debate, saying Carson "will be very much involved” in advising him on education, calling it Carson’s “expertise.”
The retired neurosurgeon is expected to accompany Trump on the campaign trail as the real estate mogul attempts to cement his lead in Florida ahead of next week’s pivotal primary in the Sunshine State.
I'm sorry Elle. I didn't notice this post of yours.
But, I must disagree with your assessment.
Last edited by Alchemy; 03/15/1611:43 PM.
Re: Adventism brought front and center....
[Re: Rick H]
#179870 03/17/1610:25 PM03/17/1610:25 PM
ProdigalOne SDA Active Member 2024 Supporting Member 2023
Dedicated Member
Trump is no friend of religious liberty. So far, his speeches have indicated a bully who advocates violence against opponents and a willingness to dismantle the Constitution in order to silence his critics in the press!
He has made promises of political power to a number of religious audiences. Jerry Falwell Jr., the son of Moral Majority founder Jerry Falwell Sr., compared Trump to Jesus Christ, Martin Luther King Jr. and King David.
I would say that Trump is a prime candidate to bring in a government enforced Sunday law!
"...I will not forget you. Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."
Isaiah 49:15-16
Re: Adventism brought front and center....
[Re: Rick H]
#179872 03/17/1610:54 PM03/17/1610:54 PM
ProdigalOne SDA Active Member 2024 Supporting Member 2023
Dedicated Member
Ben Carson's endorsement of Trump is not "a very good & nice turn of events". Carson is ignoring the council of Sister White that Seventh Day Adventists should not become involved in politics.
It seems that Carson is among those professed Seventh Day Adventists who do not accept the Fundamental Beliefs? Such "believers" should have the grace to find another church and stop bearing false witness by representing themselves to the world as Seventh Day Adventists!
Carson's entanglement in such high level politics is particularly disturbing in light of Sister White's warning that some Seventh Day Adventists will turn on their former brethren and support the Beast power...
"...I will not forget you. Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."
Isaiah 49:15-16
Re: Adventism brought front and center....
[Re: ProdigalOne]
#179880 03/18/1604:05 AM03/18/1604:05 AM
Ben Carson's endorsement of Trump is not "a very good & nice turn of events". Carson is ignoring the council of Sister White that Seventh Day Adventists should not become involved in politics.
It seems that Carson is among those professed Seventh Day Adventists who do not accept the Fundamental Beliefs? Such "believers" should have the grace to find another church and stop bearing false witness by representing themselves to the world as Seventh Day Adventists!
Carson's entanglement in such high level politics is particularly disturbing in light of Sister White's warning that some Seventh Day Adventists will turn on their former brethren and support the Beast power...
I have long been concerned about Ben Carson's involvement in politics. And that concern is fast growing into disdain. Ben Carson has directly put his support behind Donald Trump and that is actually heretical to me.
We must pray for him.
Re: Adventism brought front and center....
[Re: Rick H]
#179908 03/19/1608:55 AM03/19/1608:55 AM
ProdigalOne SDA Active Member 2024 Supporting Member 2023
Dedicated Member
I have long been concerned about Ben Carson's involvement in politics. And that concern is fast growing into disdain. Ben Carson has directly put his support behind Donald Trump and that is actually heretical to me.
If I were American, I would support B.Saunders. I think he would make a better president with more experience. However, if Trump wouldn't be around and some other puppet republican would be in the lead (by which Trump is not an establishment puppet, and that's why Mainstream Media is so on him to demonize everything he says), I really don't think Bernie would make it with his more gentle less aggressive demeanor. I don't think Bernie would win enough vote(despite he would get the lead in votes, but that would never be shown) to override the highly rigged computerized voting counting electoral system. Whereas Trump winnings is such a great majority, that the number is too great to be overriding.
The current phenomena is not about voting for either Trump or Saunders -- it is really to vote against the establishment. Both Saunders and Trump are non-establishment(elites) supported. I think personally that Saunders is a better person for the job; however I don't think he can pull to win the election what Trump can pull.
If Hillary ends up indicted for her past crimes and out of the race; and the election comes between Saunders and Trump -- that would be wonderful. And personally I would prefer Saunders, but Trump would be far better than any other puppets out there. So it wouldn't be a great loss either.
Concerning, Ben Carson -- I don't believe Ben supported Trump as what Alchemy termed something like "for political reasons"(sorry -- it wasn't in those exact words). That's accusing Ben being dishonest. I have respect for Ben and according to Trump verbal witness of their discussion the night before this press release -- after giving his support, Ben only express his views concerning education that he genuinely have a burden for as we know him for from the years he shared this within our churches.
I don't believe that Ben supported Trump while having interior goals as to have a place in his government. This happened because Trump thru their 8 months being together gain trust in Ben. This is the Lord's working behind the scenes -- not Ben nor Trump.
I believe Ben Carson supported Trump because he also saw something in Trump during the past 8 months of debates and at the occasional personal exchange they had and observing him, that won Ben's trust. I think Ben was genuine in his approach to Trump by giving his support. I don't believe it was a political move on his part. Nor do I think that he did it because he expected to be involve in Trumps government in the future.
And if Trump's win -- I still believe it is a nice turn of events that the Lord has put together. Whatever the Lord does -- it all works together for good at the end. We need to trust in His workmanship of the events He brings together.
Blessings
Re: Adventism brought front and center....
[Re: Elle]
#179930 03/21/1602:32 PM03/21/1602:32 PM
I have long been concerned about Ben Carson's involvement in politics. And that concern is fast growing into disdain. Ben Carson has directly put his support behind Donald Trump and that is actually heretical to me.
If I were American, I would support B.Saunders. I think he would make a better president with more experience. However, if Trump wouldn't be around and some other puppet republican would be in the lead (by which Trump is not an establishment puppet, and that's why Mainstream Media is so on him to demonize everything he says), I really don't think Bernie would make it with his more gentle less aggressive demeanor. I don't think Bernie would win enough vote(despite he would get the lead in votes, but that would never be shown) to override the highly rigged computerized voting counting electoral system. Whereas Trump winnings is such a great majority, that the number is too great to be overriding.
The current phenomena is not about voting for either Trump or Saunders -- it is really to vote against the establishment. Both Saunders and Trump are non-establishment(elites) supported. I think personally that Saunders is a better person for the job; however I don't think he can pull to win the election what Trump can pull.
If Hillary ends up indicted for her past crimes and out of the race; and the election comes between Saunders and Trump -- that would be wonderful. And personally I would prefer Saunders, but Trump would be far better than any other puppets out there. So it wouldn't be a great loss either.
Concerning, Ben Carson -- I don't believe Ben supported Trump as what Alchemy termed something like "for political reasons"(sorry -- it wasn't in those exact words). That's accusing Ben being dishonest. I have respect for Ben and according to Trump verbal witness of their discussion the night before this press release -- after giving his support, Ben only express his views concerning education that he genuinely have a burden for as we know him for from the years he shared this within our churches.
I don't believe that Ben supported Trump while having interior goals as to have a place in his government. This happened because Trump thru their 8 months being together gain trust in Ben. This is the Lord's working behind the scenes -- not Ben nor Trump.
I believe Ben Carson supported Trump because he also saw something in Trump during the past 8 months of debates and at the occasional personal exchange they had and observing him, that won Ben's trust. I think Ben was genuine in his approach to Trump by giving his support. I don't believe it was a political move on his part. Nor do I think that he did it because he expected to be involve in Trumps government in the future.
And if Trump's win -- I still believe it is a nice turn of events that the Lord has put together. Whatever the Lord does -- it all works together for good at the end. We need to trust in His workmanship of the events He brings together.
(bold emphasis mine)
David had his failings with Bathsheba and the census. Peter had his failings in denying his Lord and back peddling when the Jews showed in Antioch, I think it was Antioch.
I think Brother Carson has his failing in this regard.to politics.
Brother Carson really needs our prayers.
Re: Adventism brought front and center....
[Re: Rick H]
#179935 03/22/1605:35 AM03/22/1605:35 AM
ProdigalOne SDA Active Member 2024 Supporting Member 2023
Dedicated Member
Elle, I agree with you that Trump and Saunders are both finding support due to their apparent non-establishment status. Whether either is as genuinely independent as they claim, time will tell.
I also agree that Saunders appears to be the better man.
It is certainly obvious to anyone paying close attention that Trump is being singled out as a bully and a bigot despite his main focus being the economy and jobs.
Although, he has many positive planks in his platform, Trump is nevertheless an extremely scary individual. His promise of political power to the religious right goes far belong the typical pre-election pandering. Taken together with his willingness to encourage violent suppression of common citizens who criticize his policies and his publically stated intention to meddle with the First Amendment, Trump is a recipe for religious oppression and outright fascism.
It is interesting to note that Hitler came to power by promising to turn around the German economy while scapegoating an ethnic minority... How does the Santayana quote go? "Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it."
"...I will not forget you. Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."
Isaiah 49:15-16
Re: Adventism brought front and center....
[Re: Rick H]
#179936 03/22/1605:52 AM03/22/1605:52 AM
ProdigalOne SDA Active Member 2024 Supporting Member 2023
Dedicated Member
In regard to Ben Carson, my primary concern is his complete disregard for the council of Sister White in which she states that Seventh Day Adventists should not run for political office.
The opinion of many faithful Seventh Day Adventsts is that those who do not accept the Fundamental Beliefs are not in fact members of the denomination. Carson obviously does not believe that Ellen White is a prophet and is therefor, misrepresenting himself as a Seventh Day Adventist!
As Alchemy said: "Brother Carson really needs our prayers".
"...I will not forget you. Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."
Isaiah 49:15-16
Re: Adventism brought front and center....
[Re: Rick H]
#179938 03/22/1610:56 PM03/22/1610:56 PM
Where does Mrs. White state that Adventists should not run for political office?
I have understood her to say that Adventist ministers, teachers, and Bible workers (church employees) should not take up political questions; that Adventists should not vote for men who keep Sunday and promote its observance; and that Adventists should not yoke themselves together with unbelievers by joining a political party; but I have never seen her say that no Adventist should run for political office.
If you have a quote to that effect, I would appreciate seeing it. If you don't have such a statement, it would appear that Dr. Carson, not being a pastor or teacher, is not restricted from running for office. There seems to be a difference between "politics" and voting. Mrs. White urged Adventists to vote for what was right, including teaching us to vote on the Sabbath, if necessary, in favor of the prohibition against alcohol. If we are to vote, obviously we cannot be entirely separate from politics. What we are NOT to do is to make political issues a part of our message. The third angel's message, including the gospel and the health message, is our focus.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Adventism brought front and center....
[Re: Rick H]
#179939 03/23/1606:35 AM03/23/1606:35 AM
dedication Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
5500+ Member
"We cannot with safety vote for political parties; for we do not know whom we are voting for. We cannot with safety take part in any political scheme. {CCh 316.2} "Those who are Christians indeed will be branches of the true vine, and will bear the same fruit as the vine. They will act in harmony, in Christian fellowship. They will not wear political badges, but the badge of Christ. {CCh 316.3} "What are we to do, then?—Let political questions alone. {CCh 316.4} "There is a large vineyard to be cultivated; but while Christians are to work among unbelievers, they are not to appear like worldlings. They are not to spend their time talking politics or acting politics; for by so doing they give the enemy opportunity to come in and cause variance and discord. {CCh 316.5} "God's children are to separate themselves from politics, from any alliance with unbelievers.
"The Lord speaks of those who claim to believe the truth for this time, yet see nothing inconsistent in their taking part in politics, mingling with the contending elements of these last days, as the circumcised who mingle with the uncircumcised, and He declares that He will destroy both classes together without distinction. They are doing a work that God has not set them to do. They dishonor God by their party spirit and contention, and He will condemn both alike. {FE 482.1}
Re: Adventism brought front and center....
[Re: Rick H]
#179941 03/23/1608:51 AM03/23/1608:51 AM
ProdigalOne SDA Active Member 2024 Supporting Member 2023
Dedicated Member
Dedication has posted relevant quotes from Sister White (thank-you, Sister D!), I see no point in adding more.
Being Canadian, the only reason I am interested in American politics is the words of our Lord: "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come." Matthew 24:42
I believe it is the duty of every Christian to watch for the signs described by Jesus in chapter 24 of Matthew and indeed watch for all of the prophetic signs revealed in God's Word. Since it seems quite possible that Trump and or Carson may have a role in the imminent persecution of the Church; they both bear watching.
"...I will not forget you. Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."
Isaiah 49:15-16
Re: Adventism brought front and center....
[Re: ProdigalOne]
#179942 03/23/1608:59 AM03/23/1608:59 AM
Did Daniel and his 4 friends broken Ellen White's or God's laws in being in politics?
Is there a law or Biblical instruction anywhere that tells us not to get into governmental affairs?
Daniel and his 4 (3?) friends were prisoners, kidnapped from Israel. I really don't think they had much choice. Also, they were appointed by the king, they did not run for office in some rabid popularity contest.
It is clear that as in the case of Joseph (another victim of kidnapping) in Egypt, God does place His people in positions of political leadership, if it suits His purpose. Again, this does not equate to chasing after power by appealing to the lowest common denominator.
"...I will not forget you. Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."
Isaiah 49:15-16
Re: Adventism brought front and center....
[Re: Elle]
#179945 03/23/1610:52 AM03/23/1610:52 AM
ProdigalOne SDA Active Member 2024 Supporting Member 2023
Dedicated Member
Did Daniel and his 4 friends broken Ellen White's or God's laws in being in politics?
Is there a law or Biblical instruction anywhere that tells us not to get into governmental affairs?
I don't know if the Bible specifically mentions "getting into governmental affairs"; it does address the topic of seeking power over others:
"And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire. And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you? They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory." Mark 10:35-37
"And when the ten heard [it], they began to be much displeased with James and John. But Jesus called them [to him], and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many." Mark 10:41-45
"And he came to Capernaum: and being in the house he asked them, What was it that ye disputed among yourselves by the way? But they held their peace: for by the way they had disputed among themselves, who [should be] the greatest. And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, [the same] shall be last of all, and servant of all." Mark 9:33-35
"[Let] nothing [be done] through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name." Philippians 2:3-9
It is not our place to seek power, it is God who exalts whom He wishes.
"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit." Isaiah 14:12-15
The Bible clearly teaches that Lucifer sought power and was brought low, while Jesus humbled Himself and was exalted and "given... a name which is above every name."
When considering embarking upon a vainglorious, career of compromise and political strife, whose example do you believe we should follow?
"...I will not forget you. Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."
Isaiah 49:15-16
Re: Adventism brought front and center....
[Re: Elle]
#179946 03/23/1611:32 AM03/23/1611:32 AM
ProdigalOne SDA Active Member 2024 Supporting Member 2023
Dedicated Member
Did Daniel and his 4 friends broken Ellen White's or God's laws in being in politics?
Is there a law or Biblical instruction anywhere that tells us not to get into governmental affairs?
Elle, I realize that you do not accept the writings of Sister White, published following the death of James White, as prophetic. I presume this is why you did not accept the Ellen White quotes posted by dedication concerning running for political office, rather you asked for "a law or Biblical instruction".
I just noticed how you phrased your first question: "Did Daniel and his 4 friends broken Ellen White's or God's laws?"
Are you implying that Ellen White has a different set of laws than God?
"...I will not forget you. Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."
Isaiah 49:15-16
Re: Adventism brought front and center....
[Re: ProdigalOne]
#179947 03/23/1601:21 PM03/23/1601:21 PM
Elle :Did Daniel and his 4 friends broken Ellen White's or God's laws in being in politics?
ProdigalOne :Daniel and his 4 (3?) friends were prisoners, kidnapped from Israel.
We shouldn't loose sight of what had really happened in the past. The Lord sent King Nebuchednezzar to bring judgment on Judah. In reality, the house of Judah were the Lord's prisoners. King Nebuchednezzar was the Lord's servant. The Lord put Judah under the authority of 4 Beasts Kingdom that extended for 7 times(Lev 26:18,21,24,28; Dan 4:16,23,25,32).
If Israel would of been faithful to the word & ways of the Lord; they would of been the Head of all Nations(Deut 28:13). But because of disobedience and lack of faith -- they ended up as the TAIL of the nations(Deut 28:44). The Lord "sold" Israel to other nations (put Israel under the authority of other nations) 6 times before the 7th judgment-correction call came around. (see Post #179702)
Since Israel was split into 2 nations at the time of the 7th correctional judgment, the fate of these nations were seperated by two differents captivity : Israel was taken by the Assyrian, whereas Judah was taken by the Babylonians.
Originally Posted By: ProdigalOne
I really don't think they had much choice.
They did have a choice to rebel against the Babylonian authority.
But rebelling against the authority that God put above you is the same as rebelling against the Lord Himself.
AV Ro 13:1 " Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5 Wherefore [ye] must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing."
Paul says that whatever government that is above us are God's ministers -- and we should pay tribute to them. I think this means not only in paying taxes when it applies, but also in offering the best of our gifts & talents like Joseph and Daniel and others did. And because of their godly presence & knowledge in these Beastly governments, they were able to manage these Beast government to better the lives of the people knowing these governments where under the Lord's authority; thus in reality they ultimately served the Lord for He's the one that set this government at the first place to serve His purpose.
Originally Posted By: ProdigalOne
Also, they were appointed by the king, they did not run for office in some rabid popularity contest.
At those era, officers were set by the king. There wasn't any "democracy" like they pretend that we have today; but their were still a popularity contest as the King chose those that was known in his kingdom with a particular gift.
Thus Daniel and Joseph was known from their popularity of their gift. Their loyalty and excelling service is what put them in the highest authority rank under the Beastly king but they were in position to work the politics and laws in favor for the Kingdom by which is ultimately God's kingdom. They served the beastly Kings but they knew they really served the King of kings.
Originally Posted By: ProdigalOne
It is clear that as in the case of Joseph (another victim of kidnapping) in Egypt, God does place His people in positions of political leadership, if it suits His purpose.
I believe not only Joseph, Daniel, Ester, and all the rest of believers ever put in position of authority was serving the Lord's purpose; but also these Beastly Empires served the Lord's purposes -- for the Lord establish these for a very specific purpose. And if we do not recognize these establishment as the Lord's; then we are in rebellion against Him.
Blessings
Re: Adventism brought front and center....
[Re: ProdigalOne]
#179948 03/23/1602:16 PM03/23/1602:16 PM
These texts are good, and I agree we shouldn't fight between ourselves to get into any position in His kingdom.
These positions are appointed by the Lord. He is the one that gives us a gifts to serve a certain function and role in His kingdom. Whatever position we have all is the same in the Lord's eyes for every position is needed and as important as another for the glory of the whole body.
Now relating this and the previous post with Ben Carson.
1. I don't perceive he's fighting for a position. He's going thru the process that is established by the establishment. His popularity comes from his excellent service in his field in the Medical Services.
2. If the Lord called him to run for the presidency, then he needs to obey. I'm sure Ben prayed about it. A big decision like this, knowing he was going to face the Church opposition because of our standard belief on this issue -- cannot be done without inquiring if it is the will of the Lord. No one here is in position to say the Lord didn't call him. I know very well that hearing God's voice clearly is not very easy. So, the possibility for Ben to not have heard clearly is very probable. Despite if he heard the Lord's voice right or not -- it is really not any of our business. And it is between him and the Lord. We all do mistakes in that area, and we all grow from it.
3. So personally, I do not think we are in position to criticize if he did the right decision or not. If Ben heard the Lord tell him to run for president, Ben needs to obey. If he mis-understood, I still believe that whatever we end up doing is still in His PLAN. It might be against His will for He never told us to do it; for the Lord knew we would disobey and still work this in His plan.
So I believe we are not in any position to judge-criticize Ben. I don't view that running for presidency is a sin. It is a sin if the Lord never called you to run for it. But whether He called Ben or not and if Ben heard clearly the Lord's voice well or not; it is not of our business. The Lord knows and will work that with Ben personally.
We need to support our brothers and sisters in their walk with the Lord where ever they are: at the bottom of the pit or the top of the mountain. If the Lord places you in communication with Ben and gives you a message for Ben in that matter, then you need to be the Lord's voice as He commanded you. But if the Lord never told you to speak on His behalf; then it is wiser to not speak especially in things we do not know or understand.
Blessings
Re: Adventism brought front and center....
[Re: ProdigalOne]
#179949 03/23/1604:02 PM03/23/1604:02 PM
Elle :Did Daniel and his 4 friends broken Ellen White's or God's laws in being in politics?
Is there a law or Biblical instruction anywhere that tells us not to get into governmental affairs?
ProdigalOne : I realize that you do not accept the writings of Sister White, published following the death of James White, as prophetic.
You mis-understood. We were talking (here) about the Jesuit infiltration and Jim Arrabitos documentary and the Campmeeting photos of 1888 with 6 men surrounding Ellen White doing the Mason hidden hand sign -- thus in reference to all those reasons I was seeing that it wasn't so far-fetch (or insensible) for those to not trust Ellen White writing beyond James White death. I wasn't referring about me, I was only referring to those I have known for years that always told me not to trust any writing (or try to detect which did come from her pen from the writing that didn't) beyond that date.
Originally Posted By: prodigalone
I presume this is why you did not accept the Ellen White quotes posted by dedication concerning running for political office, rather you asked for "a law or Biblical instruction".
I believe we need to test all things. I believe that some writings of Ellen white are inspired before or after 1888 -- however all needs to be tested.
Originally Posted By: Prodigalone
I just noticed how you phrased your first question: "Did Daniel and his 4 friends broken Ellen White's or God's laws?"
Are you implying that Ellen White has a different set of laws than God?
I was only saying what the whole sentenced said. I wasn't at all implying or saying what you said above.
Whatever Ellen white's counsel or laws (whatever term you want to refer them) -- if they don't match to the Lord's counsel or laws -- then it is between you and the Lord to determine what to do with it.
Me, all I'm saying we are to test all things like the Lord, Ellen White and James told us to do.
When I do a study, I always use the Bible as my source book as I believe Ellen White and James told us to do. If you come to me and say -- well this or that is not in line with Ellen White...but I say to you, well I have this Bible text and that Bible text as my source.....
Then I think you should :
#1. of checked the accuracy of my Biblical source first before bringing forth to me any Ellen White quotes.
-1a) suppose my source does NOT align with scripture -- or I added something, or I misapplied the text. You need to address my erronous scripture source.
-1b) suppose my source DOES align with scriptures but you have other scriptures that aligns with Ellen White? Then we discuss the two scriptures that might seem to be in contradiction and reconcile them.
-1c)suppose my source DOES align with scriptures but you have NO scriptures to back Ellen saying? What do you do then? You need to go to the Lord -- not argue with me, nor blame Ellen White, nor blame the Church.
Does that make sense?
To me, I see a purpose for all things especially the reason the Lord wants us to test all things and sending us prophets to prove us. Read, meditate on Deut 13:1-5. The termed used in Deut 13 is Prophet -- NOT false prophet.
Ellen White is NOT a false Prophet to me. Even if there's some portion of her writings that has been tampered with by the Jesuit infiltration, or if she spoke with a lack of understanding, or she spoke a personal interpretation, or she taught it was the voice of the Lord but in reality it was mistaken as her own --- whatever reason may be --- she's still a prophet to my eyes.
I don't believe that any prophets were born prophets that didn't have to grow and weren't without error. What made the cannon in scriptures is 99% without error, but all other words they spoke -- these are not in the Bible. So these prophets had to grow into their calling and their past mistakes does not make them any less of a prophet.
It it us that do them wrong by neglecting our Deut 13 duty that the Lord told us to do always. We are to never assume that whatever they say is error free. It is our mistakes -- our sins -- not theirs.
We need to understand and know that prophets needs to grow. The prophets in training (which is a lifetime training like our own training are) needs to also learn to hear correctly the voice of the Lord and differtiating it from their own. They need to learn to put their heart idols aside like any other brothers and sisters have to learn also. They do not understand all things like any of us. They weren't reveal all things. Most of the cases they are not even given an interpretation of their dreams or visions. And most of the fulfillment of what dream or Words given is only fulfilled in many generations down the road. Most don't see the day that the Word given to them are fulfilled. They can fall into doubt. They can try to interpret or re-interpret what they think the vision, dream or Word means and they can not have it all right. But all of those reason may not mean that the dream or vision or word they heard wasn't from the Lord! Often time, it is what they added to it that wasn't. However that doesn't makes them less of a prophet because they had to grow, they did some mistakes, the interpretation wasn't given to them, or the fulfillment didn't come in their time.
Most people are too quick with their casting stones at them without understanding lifetime personal growth, and what the Lord meant in Deut 13. That's why many prophets died in the OT. Deut 13 is a warning to you (not to the prophets) to always test what a prophet tells you no matter the circumstances.
All those reasons above is why the Lord tells us to always test them and never assume that there's any point that it's ok to not test them. Even if in the time of the past, whatever they said came true. That's not a good reason to not test them in the future or whatever they say.
Even the pure Word of God (the Bible) needs to be tested at all time -- if you know what I mean with that.
Blessings
Re: Adventism brought front and center....
[Re: Elle]
#179987 03/27/1608:29 AM03/27/1608:29 AM
ProdigalOne SDA Active Member 2024 Supporting Member 2023
Dedicated Member
Elle :Did Daniel and his 4 friends broken Ellen White's or God's laws in being in politics?
Is there a law or Biblical instruction anywhere that tells us not to get into governmental affairs?
ProdigalOne : I realize that you do not accept the writings of Sister White, published following the death of James White, as prophetic.
You mis-understood. We were talking (here) about the Jesuit infiltration and Jim Arrabitos documentary and the Campmeeting photos of 1888 with 6 men surrounding Ellen White doing the Mason hidden hand sign -- thus in reference to all those reasons I was seeing that it wasn't so far-fetch (or insensible) for those to not trust Ellen White writing beyond James White death. I wasn't referring about me, I was only referring to those I have known for years that always told me not to trust any writing (or try to detect which did come from her pen from the writing that didn't) beyond that date.
Originally Posted By: prodigalone
I presume this is why you did not accept the Ellen White quotes posted by dedication concerning running for political office, rather you asked for "a law or Biblical instruction".
I believe we need to test all things. I believe that some writings of Ellen white are inspired before or after 1888 -- however all needs to be tested.
Originally Posted By: Prodigalone
I just noticed how you phrased your first question: "Did Daniel and his 4 friends broken Ellen White's or God's laws?"
Are you implying that Ellen White has a different set of laws than God?
I was only saying what the whole sentenced said. I wasn't at all implying or saying what you said above.
Whatever Ellen white's counsel or laws (whatever term you want to refer them) -- if they don't match to the Lord's counsel or laws -- then it is between you and the Lord to determine what to do with it.
Me, all I'm saying we are to test all things like the Lord, Ellen White and James told us to do.
When I do a study, I always use the Bible as my source book as I believe Ellen White and James told us to do. If you come to me and say -- well this or that is not in line with Ellen White...but I say to you, well I have this Bible text and that Bible text as my source.....
Then I think you should :
#1. of checked the accuracy of my Biblical source first before bringing forth to me any Ellen White quotes.
-1a) suppose my source does NOT align with scripture -- or I added something, or I misapplied the text. You need to address my erronous scripture source.
-1b) suppose my source DOES align with scriptures but you have other scriptures that aligns with Ellen White? Then we discuss the two scriptures that might seem to be in contradiction and reconcile them.
-1c)suppose my source DOES align with scriptures but you have NO scriptures to back Ellen saying? What do you do then? You need to go to the Lord -- not argue with me, nor blame Ellen White, nor blame the Church.
Does that make sense?
To me, I see a purpose for all things especially the reason the Lord wants us to test all things and sending us prophets to prove us. Read, meditate on Deut 13:1-5. The termed used in Deut 13 is Prophet -- NOT false prophet.
Ellen White is NOT a false Prophet to me. Even if there's some portion of her writings that has been tampered with by the Jesuit infiltration, or if she spoke with a lack of understanding, or she spoke a personal interpretation, or she taught it was the voice of the Lord but in reality it was mistaken as her own --- whatever reason may be --- she's still a prophet to my eyes.
I don't believe that any prophets were born prophets that didn't have to grow and weren't without error. What made the cannon in scriptures is 99% without error, but all other words they spoke -- these are not in the Bible. So these prophets had to grow into their calling and their past mistakes does not make them any less of a prophet.
It it us that do them wrong by neglecting our Deut 13 duty that the Lord told us to do always. We are to never assume that whatever they say is error free. It is our mistakes -- our sins -- not theirs.
We need to understand and know that prophets needs to grow. The prophets in training (which is a lifetime training like our own training are) needs to also learn to hear correctly the voice of the Lord and differtiating it from their own. They need to learn to put their heart idols aside like any other brothers and sisters have to learn also. They do not understand all things like any of us. They weren't reveal all things. Most of the cases they are not even given an interpretation of their dreams or visions. And most of the fulfillment of what dream or Words given is only fulfilled in many generations down the road. Most don't see the day that the Word given to them are fulfilled. They can fall into doubt. They can try to interpret or re-interpret what they think the vision, dream or Word means and they can not have it all right. But all of those reason may not mean that the dream or vision or word they heard wasn't from the Lord! Often time, it is what they added to it that wasn't. However that doesn't makes them less of a prophet because they had to grow, they did some mistakes, the interpretation wasn't given to them, or the fulfillment didn't come in their time.
Most people are too quick with their casting stones at them without understanding lifetime personal growth, and what the Lord meant in Deut 13. That's why many prophets died in the OT. Deut 13 is a warning to you (not to the prophets) to always test what a prophet tells you no matter the circumstances.
All those reasons above is why the Lord tells us to always test them and never assume that there's any point that it's ok to not test them. Even if in the time of the past, whatever they said came true. That's not a good reason to not test them in the future or whatever they say.
Even the pure Word of God (the Bible) needs to be tested at all time -- if you know what I mean with that.
"But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die."
Deuteronomy 18:20
I don't see anything about a prophet needing "time to grow" or being considered "prophets in training". One is either a prophet or a false prophet.
Elle said: "...if she spoke with a lack of understanding, or she spoke a personal interpretation, or she taught it was the voice of the Lord but in reality it was mistaken as her own --- whatever reason may be --- she's still a prophet to my eyes."
"But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die."
Deuteronomy 18:20
Elle, if you truely believe that Ellen White "spoke with a lack of understanding, or she spoke a personal interpretation", then according to God's word, she is worthy of death!
I fail to see how you can say: "she's still a prophet to my eyes."?
How long will you waffle between two opinions: either Ellen White was a prophet of God and therefore, owed your full respect; or she was a false prophet that you should expose before the Church!
The Word of God offers no compromising third choice!
"...I will not forget you. Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."
Isaiah 49:15-16
Re: Adventism brought front and center....
[Re: Rick H]
#179988 03/27/1608:35 AM03/27/1608:35 AM
ProdigalOne SDA Active Member 2024 Supporting Member 2023
Dedicated Member
Deuteronomy 18:20-22 tell us how God works with His prophets.
Abraham for instance, truly received a promise and prophecy from God. But, once Sarah was past child bearing in age, they were confused as to how to live according to that promise! That is when the idea of Hagar came up and Abraham raised Ishmael as the child of promise.
Well, Abraham got that all wrong and God straightened that all out in Genesis 17. But, then the Arabs were around who eventually started practicing the Islamic Religion.
Hagar was still a huge mistake on Abraham's part.
Re: Adventism brought front and center....
[Re: Rick H]
#179991 03/27/1610:49 AM03/27/1610:49 AM
ProdigalOne SDA Active Member 2024 Supporting Member 2023
Dedicated Member
I agree, Abraham did not understand the promise God had made. His attempt to accomplish God's will by works rather than faith was a disaster. The eventual fruit of his mistake was the curse of Islam. The repercussions of our choices reverberate through time.
Of course, Abraham did not make any false prophesy claiming that God had told him to father the promised seed with Hagar. He merely followed the lead of Sarah, much as Adam followed the lead of Eve at the Fall.
"...I will not forget you. Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."
Isaiah 49:15-16
Re: Adventism brought front and center....
[Re: Rick H]
#179993 03/27/1612:46 PM03/27/1612:46 PM
Sometime after posting #179949, I felt that it would potentially result in veering into an off-topic discussion.
That post I wrote rather quickly and the expression is quite poor in some places. Thus I have improved the expression while preserving all the content. I have copied this revised version post in the Should we Quote EGW? discussion.
I think that's the proper place for it. I will ask Daryl to transfer your replying posts there if its ok with Daryl. I just don't see this will be resolve quickly and potentially could hi-jack this discussion.
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