I know people have been praying for me, and I'm more grateful than you'd believe. One day I'll tell you about when I read Sarah Moss' prayer for me, and what that meant. Today, I just want to ask you for your urgent and on-going prayers for a worker I supervise. Tony is a man in his 30's. He has been through a dysfunctional childhood, drug addiction for a number of years, and during a rehabilitation programme, he found God. He has been with the Baptists mostly, and now is considering joining the Salvation Army - although I don't know how much he agrees with their doctrine. He is married, but separated from his wife and young family. I think she left him. He is hoping they will get back together.
Tony and I have had some theological debates in the past. Sometimes they have been arguments, which help no-one. When we debated the state of man in death, he honestly studied the subject, and came to the conclusion that at least in the first death, man is unconscious. He still believes in ever-burning hell-fire. And he believes once-saved, always saved. He hasn't discussed theology with me for a while, because I actually invited him to go to an Adventist church with me, and he felt threatened. He said he wouldn't know what God we were worshipping! (This from a man who read Venden's "To Know God" and "How Jesus Treated People" and thought they were excellent books.) At that point, I think he felt I was trying to proselytise - even though he knows I don't go to church - and backed off. I had some bad feelings about what he said, so I just let it go.
Today he came to me and asked if I had any books which taught what SDA's believe. It seems his wife has been home-schooling with an Adventist family, or a family which has started attending an Adventist church. These people have told her that the Adventists are the friendliest people they have ever worshipped with. She is interested in becoming more involved, particularly for the children's sake.
Tony - on the other hand - is really frightened for her. He is afraid his children will be misled, as well. He wants our literature for two reasons: to disprove our doctrine, and/or to assess our beliefs biblically, to see if we'll cause harm. He says he doesn't know anything about SDA's, and needs to find out. I'm convinced - by something that he said - that in the process, he wants to deal with the Sabbath issue once and for all. He told me in the past that he'd looked into it, but couldn't see the obligation, as we're under grace.
I have a copy of "Adventists Believe" - if I can find it - and I said I'd lend him that.
I'd like to ask EVERYONE to pray for this young man. He does have an honest heart, and I believe the Lord is leading him into a better understanding of scripture. This will be an emotional strain for him. He's attending university and working when he can, and finances are a struggle, particularly now he and his wife are separated. He doesn't really want to learn, but disprove, however, he's more open than some people, and he does have a relationship with God. Thank you all for this. Sarah and Gerry - I have prayed for you both, and will continue to do so. I only mention you by name because you have the latest posts here. I continue to pray for everyone else at MSDAOL. Your prayers have been like a breath of life to me recently. Thank you.

Thank You, Father, for this opportunity to serve.
For the ministry that Zyph has started with Tony.
Help her in her witness to him, and guide her as she seeks for the information that is needed to show Tony that it is You that is in charge of the lives of Your children in Your church.
Sometimes I have difficulty finding the words that are in my heart, but, You listen to the heart when we pray.
Open up Tony's heart, and open the way for Your truth to enter.
Rebuke the adversary, cause him to stumble every time he seeks to stop Zyph from sharing with Tony, and cause him to stumble when he trys to stop Tony from accepting the truth he learns from your word.
Guide and keep them in Jesus name,
Amen

I also studied to prove the SDA church wrong in their beliefs, however, I found their beleifs to be the most biblical of all. Instead of trying to get a couple to see the error of the SDA church and to leave it, I ended up becoming a SDA myself.

Dear Heavenly Father,

As You led me into the SDA church in the way Tony is wanting to look at the SDA church doctrines, I pray that Tony will also be led into the SDA church.

In Christ's name I pray,

Amen!

__________________________
"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."
Romans 8:28

Daryl

Today I had a brief opportunity to ask Tony whether he's reading the books I loaned him. He says he's really enjoyed the simple way our doctrines are set out. He's never heard a study about the remnant church before, and says he can't agree with it, but found it fascinating. He then said he feels scared because he feels like he's being "sucked in" to a closer relationship with these people. He was in half a mind that it was actually okay, but he says he feels threatened, nevertheless. I told him I'd asked some people to pray for him, and he jokingly said, "Maybe it's their fault!" My impression was that he's not convinced enough about the Sabbath to consider changing, but he can't deny the working of the Holy Spirit. I think he's actually excited about what he's finding. Please don't forget him.
Zyph.

Father, we thank You that Tony has been responding to Your pull.
We thank You that he is reading the books that his mother has been giving him.

Father, if we may be so bold,touch his heart so strong that he can not dismiss it.
Open his eyes that he may see the truth of Your words and that all he is reading is truth.

Continue to draw him and give him the courage to acept it, and to one day to make his decision for You.

Stop the hand of the deceiver, prevent him from interfereing.
Thank You,
in Jesus name, amen

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Chose you this day whom you will serve,
as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Joshua 24:15

[u]What is popular is not always right.
What is right is not always popular.[/u]

This is just an update on what's happening:
Tony has been eagerly reading the books, particularly "Adventists Believe". He says he can't always get the same message out of the texts used, because he uses only the NIV bible. I've suggested a few other versions to include. He is struggling with the law and grace, and it's very difficult to get the simple message through to him, although I've reminded him of the story about the slave that was purchased to be set free, and his response. I believe there is a huge struggle going on inside Tony. I believe he is sincere, but is finding it hard to wrestle with old beliefs. His mind is not closed, but he is struggling with avoiding a works trip - a common issue. Please continue to remember him in your prayers. Thanks.
Zyph.

Zyph

If you think this would be worthwhile with Tony reprint it. You can leave my name out & any references to SDA at this stage, if anything coming with an SDA label at present would create prejudice.

I recommend Mark Finley's book "Persuasion" to help you in working with Tony.

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God expects people to do works - it is their job. Everything we do is a work of some kind, the Bible calls it "deeds" or "actions".

They just have to separate the worthwhile works from the not worthwhile works.

Example :

MY NEEDS - I am hungry and thirsty.

WORTHWHILE WORKS I decide to learn what to become(disciple), and do(learn to trust His wisdom enough to act on it), and have(faith=deciding to act on and rely on what God says), to respect God - I eat and drink what I can enjoy that is good for me and God likes for me to eat and drink. I see that God made my stomach and brain and taste buds and likes and dislikes and created me to work and rest and get hungrey and thirsty. He built me with limits on what is good for me and bad for me and I respect that and learn how to co operate with His hopes for me.

NOT WORTHWHILE WORKS - I decide to stick with respecting myself and my opinions more than God and what He says. Then I will find any excuse to do what I want.

Both are works either for good or bad.

WORTHWHILE WORKS - I will accept Jesus as my Saviour and Lord and Master now and every day. I will pray to Him to forgive my wrongs and guide me to follow Him. I choose to follow Jesus and His teachings and all Ten Commandments, because He said that was the only way I am allowed to follow Him. His footsteps are the only ones going to Heaven. I will take Jesus on His terms alone and let the Bible set the terms.

NOT WORTHWHILE WORKS - I will only be a partway disciple. I will accept Jesus as my Saviour but I will stay my own Lord and Master by doing what I or others think is right and not listen to the Bible and ignore some of it's teachings. I will put some footsteps to Heaven's path of my own or traditional design and add or take away from Jesus's footprints . He has to take me on my terms.

If I put manufacturer approved brake fluid in my brakes master cylinder it makes sense, and does ok.

If I put an unapproved brand or duty rating level of fluid in, it might work for a while but can not compare to the manufacturers built in life expectancy for my warranty on my car's brake system. I might even void the warranty. Then when I need to use the warranty I will be outta luck.

If I pour power-steering fluid in my brake system master cylinder, it was fluid right ??

Wrong it immediately started eating up the linings of your entire insides of the whole system, even though it did not immediately give any symptoms.

Then when your brakes started going out, it was already too late. Then you had to put out the time and energy and expense of completely replacing the entire braking system, from the master cylinder & controls to brake lines & kits for each wheel, even possibly new drums per wheel.

But all that was done was power steering fluid in where the brake fluid was supposed to go. That's true, but look at the damage it caused to the car. if the brakes were needed in an emergency and failed before getting replaced totally, a possibly fatal wreck gets setup. A wreck caused by negligence to take care of your car according to the manufacturers plain instructions as the manufacturer spelled them out.

I said all that to make this point:

Anything and everything on Earth you do & why yo do it or not do it, is because you love Jesus and submit to His Lord-ship and Master-ship over you as your Saviour. Or you follow the devil as your master and Lord by acting out that you refuse to follow what you have learned from the Bible, or refuse to go to the Bible and learn.

Jesus told Nicodemus "You must be born again" in other words you must convert to becoming Jesus's disciple and servant and friend. Trusting in Him to save you from all your sins, and troubles of your past & present and guard your future. Following all of Jesus's teachings from the Bible in this world is built to only do these things.

It builds discipleship, son ship or daughter ship in you, it allies you to him in your heart as His servant and friend, and puts you in the position of a good conscience to call upon His love and mercy and grace in faith that lives out confessing Him as Saviour, Lord, Master. Only those who obey all they learn from the Bible are confessing by their lives that Jesus is their Lord and Master.

That's what your works are for, and they will inspire confidence in God & the Bible in others who watch you whether you notice it or not.

Jesus alone is able to make atonement for you, Jesus alone is able to add His merits to His and the Holy Spirits intercessions for you. Only His sinless pure and Divine/human life has what it takes and the Divine authority to stand in place of the sins you repent of and confess to Him. Jesus alone will grant eternal life. Your good works can not and your bad works will not and can not. Your works confess who your Ruler and Lord is. Jesus alone holds the keys of hell and death and eternal life and Heaven. There is no eternal life in hell, only in Heaven. Jesus is the One who decides who is given eternal life or not, your life with all it's motives and deeds and responces to His calling you, is the evidence upon which He makes His decision and is allowed to extend mercy or is not allowed to extend mercy. He has set the terms, but daily you vote by following Him or not, you decide and show what you want. He does not have any other choices available to Him. Calvery opens the door to Heaven on one pathway only. That pathway is the terms in the Bible that The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost have set. In Gethsemene when Jesus was pleading if there was a different way, for the first time in all eternity the Father refused to talk to His Son. Even for Jesus the terms can not be changed. For the dis obedient there is the fatal danger, but for the obedient there is eternal security.

Willful disobedience stops the work of grace, until it is repented of, turned away from, confessed appropriatly, and any needed restitution made if possible. Obedient hope cooperates with grace by doing what grace sends you power and motives to do, through faith and the authority of Scripture. Your feelings often catch up later.

Grace opens the door for you to be and stay His disciple, spiritual child, servant, friend your internal life with Him as Your Saviour, Lord, Master, Ruler, Elder Brother, Friend closer than all other friends.

The question of whether or not are not His disciple or are in rebellion with His Rulership within you, confesses on the outside by your actions what is really on the inside. The actions are the barometer of the inside.

The hoopla over works verses legalism verses grace is propaganda. Decades ago preachers got mad because God fearing people started keeping the Sabbath and leaving their churches, to go to SDA Churches when they saw from the Bible what God said. God still says it. People still are lead by Him to see the Lord-ship and Master-ship of Jesus their Saviour. They still keep deciding to obey all they learn that the Bible says.

A new spin was added. Change road maps to confuse the issues.

Here is non SDA info on the subject. In the area of SDA doctrine he can not see well at all. In the area of history of the Bible and it's accuracy and the rise of it's competitors, he hits hard but in a way expected from a non SDA. It is a book most churches have not heard off or if so, don't want you to see.

It is called NEW AGE BIBLE VERSIONS by G. A. Riplinger - A.V. Publications, Box 388, Munroe Falls, Ohio 44262

A few pages in the book is a five paragraph statement by Dr. Frank Logsdon renouncing all attachment to the NASV, because of what he learned from that book. Dr Logsdon was co-founder of NASV.

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Edward F Sutton

[This message has been edited by Edward F Sutton (edited April 15, 2001).]

Zyph,
Here is a litle story sent to me by a friend, it helps in understanding the necessity of the sacrificial death of Jesus.

I received this from Jill in Muskegon.
I have to share it with you.

Seminary Donuts

There was a boy by the name of Steve who was attending Seminary in Utah.
In this Seminary classes are held during school hours.
Brother Christianson taught Seminary at this particular school. He had an open-door policy and would take in any student that had been thrown out of another class as long as they would abide by his rules. Steve had been kicked out of his sixth period and no other teacher wanted him, so he went into Brother Christianson's Seminary class.

Steve was told that he could not be late, so he arrived just seconds before the bell rang and he would sit in the very back of the room. He would also be the first to leave after the class was over.

One day, Brother Christianson asked Steve to stay after class so he could talk with him. After class, Bro. Christianson pulled Steve aside and said, "You think you're pretty tough, don't you?"

Steve's answer was, "Yeah, I do."

Then Brother Christianson asked, "How many push-ups can you do?"

Steve said, "I do about 200 every night."

"200? That's pretty good, Steve," Brother Christianson said. "Do you think you could do 300?"

Steve replied, "I don't know... I've never done 300 at a time."

"Do you think you could?" Again asked Brother Christianson.

"Well, I can try," said Steve.

"Can you do 300 in sets of 10? I need you to do 300 in sets of ten for this to work. Can you do it? I need you to tell me you can do it," Brother Christianson said. Steve said, "Well... I think I can... yeah, I can do it."

Brother Christianson said, "Good! I need you to do this on Friday."

Friday came and Steve got to class early and sat in the front of the room. When class started, Brother Christianson pulled out a big box of donuts.
Now these weren't the normal kinds of donuts, they were the extra fancy BIG kind, with cream centers and frosting swirls. Everyone was pretty excited-it was Friday, the last class of the day, and they were going to get an early start on the weekend.

Bro. Christianson went to the first girl in the first row and asked, "Cynthia, do you want a donut?"

Cynthia said, "Yes."

Bro. Christianson then turned to Steve and asked, "Steve, would you do ten push-ups so that Cynthia can have a donut?"

Steve said, "Sure," and jumped down from his desk to do a quick ten. Then Steve again sat in his desk. Bro. Christianson put a donut on Cynthia's desk.

Bro. Christianson then went to Joe, the next person, and asked, "Joe do you want a donut?"

Joe said, "Yes." Bro. Christianson asked, "Steve would you do ten push-ups so Joe can have a donut?" Steve did ten push-ups, Joe got a donut.

And so it went, down the first aisle, Steve did ten pushups for every person before they got their donut. And down the second aisle, till Bro. Christianson came to Scott.

Scott was captain of the football team and center of the basketball team. He was very popular and never lacking for female companionship. When Bro. Christianson asked, "Scott do you want a donut?"

Scott's reply was, "Well, can I do my own pushups?"

Bro. Christianson said, "No, Steve has to do them."

Then Scott said, "Well, I don't want one then."

Bro. Christianson then turned to Steve and asked, "Steve, would you do ten pushups so Scott can have a donut he doesn't want?"

Steve started to do ten pushups. Scott said, "HEY! I said I didn't want one!"

Bro. Christianson said, "Look, this is my classroom, my class, my desks, and my donuts. Just leave it on the desk if you don't want it." And he put a donut on Scott's desk.

Now by this time, Steve had begun to slow down a little. He just stayed on the floor between sets because it took too much effort to be getting up and down. You could start to see a little perspiration coming out around his brow. Bro. Christianson started down the third row. Now the students were beginning to get a little angry.

Bro. Christianson asked Jenny, "Jenny, do you want a donut?

Jenny said, "No."

Then Bro. Christianson asked Steve, "Steve, would you do ten pushups so Jenny can have a donut that she doesn't want?" Steve did ten, Jenny got a donut.

By now, the students were beginning to say "No" and there were all these uneaten donuts on the desks. Steve was also having to really put forth a lot of effort to get these pushups done for each donut. There began to be a small pool of sweat on the floor beneath his face, his arms and brow were beginning to get red because of the physical effort involved.

Bro. Christianson asked Robert to watch Steve to make sure he did ten pushups in a set because he couldn't bear to watch all of Steve's work for all of those uneaten donuts. So Robert began to watch Steve closely. Bro. Christianson started down the fourth row.

During his class, however, some students had wandered in and sat along the heaters along the sides of the room. When Bro. Christianson realized this; he did a quick count and saw 34 students in the room. He started to worry if Steve would be able to make it.

Bro. Christianson went on to the next person and the next and the next. Near the end of that row, Steve was really having a rough time. He was taking a lot more time to complete each set.

Steve asked Bro. Christianson, "Do I have to make my nose touch on each one?"

Bro. Christianson thought for a moment, "Well, they're your pushups. You can do them any way that you want." And Bro. Christianson went on.

A few moments later, Jason came to the room and was about to come in when all the students yelled, "NO! Don't come in! Stay out!"

Jason didn't know what was going on. Steve picked up his head and said, "No, let him come."

Bro. Christianson said, "You realize that if Jason comes in you will have to do ten pushups for him."

Steve said, "Yes, let him come in."

Bro. Christianson said, "Okay, I'll let you get Jason's out of the way right now. Jason, do you want a donut?"

"Yes."

"Steve, will you do ten pushups so that Jason can have a donut?" Steve did ten pushups very slowly and with great effort. Jason, bewildered, was handed a donut and sat down.

Bro. Christianson finished the fourth row, then started on those seated on the heaters. Steve's arms were now shaking with each pushup in a struggle to lift himself against the force of gravity. Sweat was dropping off of his face and, by this time, there was not a dry eye in the room.

The very last two girls in the room were cheerleaders and very popular.
Bro. Christianson went to Linda, the second to last, and asked, "Linda, do you want a doughnut?

Linda said, very sadly, "No, thank you."

Bro. Christianson asked Steve, "Steve, would you do ten pushups so that Linda can have a donut she doesn't want?"

Grunting from the effort, Steve did ten very slow pushups for Linda. Then Bro. Christianson turned to the last girl, Susan. "Susan, do you want a donut?"

Susan, with tears flowing down her face, asked, "Bro. Christianson, can I help him?"

Bro. Christianson, with tears of his own, said, "No, he has to do it alone, Steve, would you do ten pushups so Susan can have a donut?"

As Steve very slowly finished his last pushup, with the understanding that he had accomplished all that was required of him, having done 350 pushups, his arms buckled beneath him and he fell to the floor.

Brother Christianson turned to the room and said. "And so it was, that our Savior, Jesus Christ, plead to the Father, "Into thy hands I commend my spirit." With the understanding that He had done everything that was required of Him, he collapsed on the cross and died. And like some of those in this room, many of us leave the gift on the desk, uneaten."

Heart wrenching, isn't it?

To think He did all that for us, and so many leave it 'uneaten', laying on the 'desk' to rot, as though it were worth nothing.

Thank you both for the above replies. Ed, I've taken a large piece of yours and e-mailed it to Tony. I'm in the delicate position of being his boss, so I have to tread carefully, particularly as I work for another denomination. But I'm sure he'll understand. Gerry, I'm saving yours. I'll send it to him after I speak to him next. I'll also send it to someone else who's struggling with initiating a relationship with God. Thank you both again. I need others' prayers in this. I've been reminded very strongly of the text that says if you regard iniquity in your heart, God won't hear your prayers. So I don't feel I'm of much use praying for people. But I've never been able to resist engaging with others in bible discussions. And I think God can use anyone to do some things. Kindest regards,
Zyph.

Zyph, if God wasn't using you now, if He wasn't working on and therough you now, do you really think you would have an interest for souls?

Ok, you have a few heart problems, we all do.
The thing is, you have already opened yourself up to Him, and are asking Him to help you with someone else.
That is the best way to find help for yourself, by helping someone else.

Take your concerns to God, put them in His capable hands, wait on Him, and in due time, I think you'll be surprised how He has already answered your prayer ( un said) for fellowship with Him.

He won't save you in your sin, but He sure will save you from them.

You are in a lot of prayers.

Father,
Thank You for the healing spirit of Jesus that heals our hearts and makes us right with You.

Thank You for the Holy Spirit that calls to us when we are far off.
For the drawing of Your love that brings us ever closer to You.
Thank You for the blood of Jesus, the Christ, that was shed for us on that cruel cross.
We claim the merits of that dshed blood for Zyph, Father, that it may open the door for You to work in and on her heart.
Draw her ever closer to Your bosom, hold her in Your arms and let her know You are there, You know her secret places and are waiting to cleanse her, all she has to do is ask.
Thank You, for all that You are doing, have done and will do i her life, in Jesus precious name,
Amen

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Examine me, O LORD, and prove me: try my reins and my heart. Ps.26:2