Elle,

If you read the Bible the way you read my post, it is a small wonder you misunderstand it. You have made false claims about what I posted! Maybe you could read it again--but drop your biased attitude about what you think I will say before you do. You appear to be looking for something to criticize, and in your haste to do so, you misinterpreted what I said. You also have misunderstood the Bible in virtually the same manner.

I did not say the first prophet was a false prophet. I said that a false prophet deceived him into disobeying, and for this he was killed. I called him a "prophet of God." Does that sound like a false prophet to you? Did you read the story in the Bible, Elle? Read the entire chapter. That is why I gave the full chapter as a reference.


Was Jeremiah a true prophet? Did Jeremiah tell Hananiah that he would die, or was that the "word of the LORD" speaking through Jeremiah? Why did this prophetic word come to Jeremiah against Hananiah? Have you read what this "rebellion" that Hananiah was teaching involved? Did you know that Hananiah was prophesying? Maybe you simply need to read the story there again too--again, without the bias.

God says what needs to be said. He doesn't always say what we think He should say. Some things don't need to be said. In this case, God did not say to Hananiah "you have given a false prophecy." In fact, has God said such a thing to anyone in the Bible? And yet, there were false prophets. Does it need to be said by God before we believe that there were or that anyone has actually prophesied falsely?

A proper Bible scholar must be intelligent. The Bible tells us that Hananiah prophesied. It is clear that Hananiah's prophecy conflicted with that of Jeremiah. It is clear that Jeremiah gave the true prophecy, and therefore, that Hananiah's was false. Because of Hananiah's false prophecy, Jeremiah prophesied that Hananiah would die. Jeremiah's prophecy gave Hananiah to understand that he would be held accountable for the rebellion his false prophecy was teaching. Hananiah did die, according to the prophecy of Jeremiah.

Now, Elle comes along and says that since Jeremiah's prophecy said Hananiah would die for rebellion, and that he didn't mention the false prophecy at all, therefore Hananiah didn't die for being a false prophet! And, to make the situation grander, Elle projects that Green Cochoa should now be embarrassed for not reading the story! Wow.

I will tell you something. I am not embarrassed. I stand with dignity and the knowledge of having interpreted the Bible honestly and carefully. However, I am saddened by your response. I am disappointed that you have chosen to misinterpret the scriptures in order to support your own opinion. You have blinded yourself to the truth, Elle. I'm afraid that you will not even understand the gravity of this, but one misunderstanding of the Scriptures always leads to another. I will plead with you to first seek the Lord and His Spirit before further attempting to do Bible study on your own.

May God bless,

Green Cochoa.

I thought you might not. You probably didn't read Post#178708 where I explained this.

We do have an example with the Israelis who all perished (except two) in the wilderness despite they had from first hand the Lord's Word on stone and "paper" and hearing it from the mouth of the greatest prophet of all times -- Moses. They also witness His mighty hand from their own eyes. All of this didn't save any of them.

Why is that? Basically, it is because they ate the flesh(words) of men instead of eating the flesh(words) of Jesus. (read Ex 20:19) Moses was a great prophet -- the greatest of all prophets -- and taking the words from the mouth and the writings of Moses didn't help any of them one bit. The Lord's word also requires testing (guidance of the Holy Spirit, chewing and pondering of what was said, confirmation(2nd witness) from the Holy Spirit, and the right manner of eating it).

The Lord gave us instruction in His food laws how to eat [spiritual] food. He told us which foods are clean and how to avoid eating unclean [spiritual] food.

Man is an unclean animal and anything that comes out of his mouth is basically unclean. Even if he heard the pure word of God. That pure word that he heard has been process thru him and comes out of his mouth. It takes the Holy Spirit to take those words, prepares them in such a way to make them clean for someone else to eat of it.

There's more to it than that (see Post#178708).

Personally, I don't have problem with quoting Ellen White. Some claim this is weak since you can't quote Scripture! Well, that may be true at times, but, they are truly inspired by the Holy Spirit!

We do need to understand the Biblical principle Sister White may be speaking to when we quote her, though.

???? Green, you brought this example to dis-prove my claim that no [false] prophets were killed by the Lord.

I read the chapter twice. The prophet that died in that example was a TRUE prophet not a [false] prophets. ????? if you didn't bring that on to disprove my point -- then what's your point?


I know the story. And again the Bible is clear why Hananiah died because he "taught rebellion" Jer 28:16 and the story shows this also not only for Hananiah but for the majority of the whole house of Judah.

Even Jeremiah perceived some words that proceeded from Hananiah's mouth as being true prophecy for Jeremiah said Amen to what Hananiah had said(Jer 28:3-6). Noticed Jeremiah didn't repeat the "two years" part under the leading of the Holy Spirit. And Jeremiah didn't call Hananiah a false prophet for adding this "two years" part of his prophecy. And, yes the words of Hananiah were fulfilled not in 2 years time but in 70+ years time.

When Hananiah broke the wooden yoke off Jeremiah back, again in Hananiah's action was a prophecy. The Lord did remove the wooden yoke which was initially the house of Judah's judgment; but they got an iron yoke instead(Deut 28:48; Jer 28:14) because they(not only Hananiah but the house of Judah) rebelled against the Lord's court judgment. That's contempt of Court and the law's verdict for that is the death sentence(Deut 17:12). That's the death sentenced & law Hananiah died from and was an example for every one else in the house of Judah that also rebelled against the Lord's sentence to submit to Babylon. That's what Jeremiah was teaching the people -- to submit to Babylon so they would be spared from the contempt of court sentenced. Those that submitted to the Lord's sentenced were brought into captivity and were not killed. The wooden yoked was a lighter judgment for the nation; but because of the rebellion of the nation (not only Hananiah) they received the death penalty and put the remaining of the nation under an iron yoke according to the law in Deut 28.


Hananiah did not die because he prophecy falsely. He died because of contempt of court -- rebelling against the Lord's judgment. You missed out on what the story said and you are adding to scripture again Green.


Wow! You didn't even get the story. I do hope you can learn to put aside your pre-conceived ideas(heart idols) before studying. The Lord doesn't ask us to destroy them, but only to put them aside for they will distort everything you read(Ezk 14:4). After the study you can take them back.

I do agree some of Ellen's quote are inspired.


Yes, and that's what the whole purpose of the exercise "to test" all things -- it is to come to understand what the Lord reveal in the greater light.

Elle, you defend a lot of your doctrines by claiming the "law is spiritual". This supposedly signifies that since the "LAW IS SPIRITUAL. They point of the fulfillment of greater thing to come -- in the spiritual realm."

In the case of stoning false prophets, your private interpretation makes no sense. This was not a shadow of things to come. the Law being spiritual in fact indicates a magnification or intensification of the Law's application. For example in Matthew 5, Jesus said: "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."
"...Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."

This is the true application of the Law being "spiritual". In this sense, you are correct that we must "stone the false prophet in our hearts"; however, calling something spiritual does not justify the watering down of God's righteousness. Furthermore, the lack of false prophets being stoned in the Old Testament is an arguement from silence fallacy that proves absolutely nothing.

quote=ProdigalOne]By the way, thank-you for comparing me to godless, murdering, hypocrites. It's always nice to have a fan![/quote] Since you uphold the LITERAL Law you show yourself to be in favor to pick up a stone and obey the Lord in stoning a [false]Prophet. The only reason why you cannot stone [false]prophets is because the Babylonian law prevents you. But shouldn't you be obeying the Lord's law instead of the Babylonian Law???? Why aren't you stoning the [false]Prophets? [/quote]

Jesus said:
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone..." John 8:7

Sorry to disappoint you. I have a lot of growing in the Lord to do before I could possibly qualify!

I do hope you don't think I am advocating the literal stoning of anyone, Elle?

GreenC, I've been thinking more about Hananiah and what you said that it is obvious from the text that he's a [false prophet] (BTW I do agree) and what Jer 28:14 says his reason of death was because he "taught rebellion". In a way you are right and then in another way I am also right.

Since the book of Jeremiah revolves around the all time biggest and longest captivity of Israel(really Judah, Israel was taken captive by the Assyrian some 100+ years before but also went under the Babylonian captivity after Babylon conquered the Assyrian). This captivity (the overall Beast Statue of Daniel 2) still lingers on today. It is important to understand that this captivity-event-judgment is the most significant one of all history. Thus I see the death penalty of Hananiah in Jer 28 in the context of this major all-time Israel(& whole world) judgment event.

So maybe that's why my view and your view is different of Hananiah's judgment.

Q1 : Why Hananiah had to die versus other [false]prophet not?

We need to ask this question for there were other [false]prophets around at the time of Jeremiah as he has addressed them in plural form in other texts in that book. I see Hananiah just happened to be the unlucky one to be the spoke person or representative of everyone(leaders, priests, other prophets) in giving a collective answer to the Lord in chapter 28. This answer came something like 7 years after Babylon had already put them under their authority in a "wooden yoke" captivity (will come back to define that later). Of course Hananiah came presumptously by saying "thus says the Lord"; but so many other prophets had done that also before and never suffer the death penalty for it.

So since Hananiah was not the only [false] prophets around; then why the Lord did not kill the others also? And what about those that Isaiah spoke of in his time and all others that was around before that and after that?

To be honest, I don't see any other recording in the Bible of [false] prophets being killed. So why Hananiah had to die then and why not the rest? One way to reconciliate this question is to view Hananiah's death penalty resulted from another law that in this context was the "contempt of court" found in Deut 17:12. The fact that judgment was so serious, the first time ever, that everyone was given plenty time(around 7 years) to submit to the "wooden yoke" of Babylon and by not submitting would result in the death penalty to anyone -- all this was the context that spoke of the severity of the current situation at hand.


The Lord had address the false prophets prior in chapter Jer 23. In that chapter His message also includes the shepherds(priests) and the people. If I'm reading this correctly, He applies Deut 13 to every individual at the end (not only prophets) in Jer 23:33-37 by saying "for every man's word will be his burden; for ye have perverted the words of the living God....I will even punish that man and his house".

In that chapter He never says it will be the death penalty by stoning like He said in Deut 13:5. But just refers to a sort of judgment in general words like "utterly forget you and forsake you and the city I gave you .... everlasting reproach"(v.39). Thus what I get from chapter 23 that the judgment for Deut 13 falls on everyone; in this case scenario, when He will destroy the city & temple & all the people who follow the rebellious counsels in not accepting the Lord's judgment. That's what I see as a CASE Application of the Deut 13's law in this situation.

To review the 1 King 13 case where the true Prophet dies and not the [false] Prophet???? Maybe the death penalty could deal with another law or the Lord held the true prophet to Deut 13 for not testing the [false] prophet voice and listening to him instead of obeying the Lord's word spoken to him personally??? We do know that the Lord does judge more severely the leaders and those that knows more light. Anyway, I still don't understand what that text means; but I do appreciate you pointing it out to me.


Looking into the word "rebellion" (saw-rah)

Another thing that came to my mind is the English word "rebellion" is quite a broad word. So I looked it up -- the Hebrew word is "saw-rah" (h5627) by which Strong defines it as "apostasy, crime". It's root word is "suw.r"(h5493) meaning "to turn aside, to go away, to depart". So it appears to have a very similar definition to what we are familiar with.

So if I apply this correctly; it means that anytime Israel (or us) "turn aside" from the Lord's will -- this is a rebellion. We know that Israel was in continuous rebellion against the Lord's will since the exodus. My view is they were only babes in their spiritual growth. So it is typical for babes to do lots of mistakes and be "rebellious" as they are being corrected whenever they do wrong.


BTW saw-rah (h5627) is found in Deut 13:5 but not worded as "rebellion" in the KJV but as "to turn away". To me, the English translation has no weight; thus Deut 13:5 uses the same word as Jer 28:14. I just never noticed this before.


Whose the False prophet : Jeremiah Wooden yoke not Fulfilled, but Hananiah destruction of Wooden yoke is fulfilled

I'm not saying that Jeremiah was a false prophet here. But if anyone wants to find fault in Jeremiah or look at the definition of [false] prophet in a narrow way, they can be side tract by this.

Jeremiah did prophesied of the coming destruction from the beginning of the book; however from chapter 26 we see Jeremiah started talking about submitting to Babylon with a wooden yoke. Basically, he was saying if everyone submitted to the Lord's judgment, they wouldn't be destroyed -- contrary to the earlier chapter. So these seeming contradictions needs to be understood, so we don't call Jeremiah a false flip flop prophet or saying the Lord is not consistent.

The Bible doesn't say when exactly Jeremiah started to go around with a wooden yoke. All we know that in 27:12 Jeremiah stands in front of King Zedekiah and speaks the words the Lord gave him "Bring your necks under the yoke of the King of Babylon". Probably Jeremiah was going around the city with his neck under a wooden yoke much earlier (maybe for years???). If that be the case that probably annoyed the King, and all the prophets and the priests that were teaching & planning the contrary -- a revolt against Babylon. A revolt against Babylon is a direct revolt against the Lord (Rom 13) for the Lord sent Babylon to judge Judah. Then in chapter 28, Hananiah breaks that wooden yoke = contempt of court. At that point, Hananiah words (which was the respond of the nation to the Lord judgment) puts an end of the lighter judgment sentence and have puts all of Judah (and other nations) under the iron yoke because of their contempt.


The Wooden yoke versus the Iron Yoke

The wooden yoke is defined in Jeremiah 27:11 (and also in Deut 28 & Lev 26 and in the book of Judges) and generally means the following : " But the nations that bring their neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, and serve him, those will I let remain still in their own land, saith the LORD; and they shall till it, and dwell therein." (Jer 27:11)

In the book of Judges, the Lord "sold" Israel 6 times to foreign nations as a "wooden yoke" correction for disobeying Him. In all these 6 times, Israel submitted to the judgment and they were allow to remain in their own land; but had to pay tribute to the foreign nation. After some level of repentance the Lord sent a "savior" (a Judge) to free them from their WOODEN Yoke captivity. (read Post #179702 to have a perspective of the captivity in terms of the law of Jubilee and the meaning of redemption)

Because of this not so distant history, the house of Judah wasn't ignorant of the way the Lord corrected them via captivities in the past. This was part of their history. They served 111 years out of some 300+ years in Canaan in captivity under some other nation. This is the main reason they rejected the Lord's theocracy and demanded to be rule by a man -- a King -- instead.

Also, just before they entered to possess Canaan the Lord had already told them in a very lenghty and detailed way in Lev 26 and Deut 28 how He would correct them when they rebel by selling them to foreign nation. Also he taught them a song that they had to learn that prophecied what would happen.

So what Jeremiah was teaching was a big part of their history and a main part of their law. Jeremiah wasn't teaching anything new. Also, they knew this judgment was coming since their previous King Josiah in 2Chr 34 that the Lord told him that the anger(judgment) from the sins of Manasseh(2Kg 21:15; Jer 15:4) would still come after him. But they chose to ignore all of these and believe it wasn't going to happen.

The iron yoke is define in Deut 28:48-68. It's too long to quote but it talks about besiege, famine, eating own children, plague, sickness, destruction, "and ye shall be plucked from off the land".

That time, it was the first time Judah suffered the iron yoked. They suffered it again in 70 to 135 AD with their rebellion against the Roman Empire. But under the Medes and the Persians, and the Greek Empire, they remain under a wooden yoke as long as they submitted to the Empire the Lord set over them. And today, we(the Christian) are still under the wooden yoke of this Beast captivity of Daniel 2 but under Mystery Babylon's Empire.

What do we compare it to, how do we know it's "the greater light"?

By using "light" as a metaphor, my understanding is the Lord is "THE Light". The Bible is the greater light and Ellen White or anyone else that receive a revelation is a smaller light. Ellen correctly refer to her revelation received as a smaller light to the Bible.

If I'm understanding your question is "how do we know that our interpretation of the Bible is "the greater light"? Or in another word -- how do we know our interpretation is really the mind of Christ expressed?

As we all know, we are not at liberty to come up with a private interpretation; thus all interpretation must come from the Holy Spirit. And we all(not only prophets, but all believers) need to develop an ear to hear Him. Not an easy task at all.

...but we do have some guide lines from scriptures :

1. Test all things: Deut 13. Examples of the Bereans believers (Acts 17:11).

2. AV Isa 8:20 To the law[torah] and to the testimony[t'uwedah,attestation -- manner of keeping]: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.

The Torah is the Pentateuch given to Moses. The application of the law(t'uwedah) is a case in the Bible where we see how the Lord applied His law. This is what I'm basically looking for in our study of ratsach. The case study is very important for it shows the mind of Christ how He actually applies it. Thus, all prophets, doctrines, preachers sermons, our own interpretation, and whatever we hear... has to speak according to the law and its testimony (the manner the Lord applies it).

3. All new Revelation has to submit to the authority of previous revelation : The Lord made the Torah the foundation of all truth. The Torah basically has the greatest authority of all revelation. Even Jesus when He came spoke like Moses and fulfilled Deut 18.

Whatever revelation that came after the Torah has some authority but they are not above the Torah. So, whatever revelation comes after previous revelation, has to speak according to all previous authority. Meaning the authority of the revelation decreases as time advances.

Before Moses died, he passed down SOME of his AUTHORITY to Joshua(Num 27:20 "You shall invest him with some of your authority, that all the congregation of the people of Israel may obey."). He did not pass down all of his AUTHORITY, which means Joshua has to submit to the Words(greater authority) spoken to Moses.

Thus to apply this today, all revelation given to us via a prophet or anyone within the Church -- the new revelation has to speak according to all previous revelation(greater authority). If they don't, then it is not the previous revelation that is to be discarded but the latter one.

4. Putting aside our heart idols (pre-conceived) idea. Pre-conceived ideas will distort the truth. Ezk 14:4 We do not need to destroy them as our pre-conceived ideas may be truth, or may have some portion of it as truth, or is totally false. We do not know until the Lord shed further light on them. It is quite crucial to learn to put them aside. If not the Lord says in Ezk 14:4 that He will multiply them -- meaning everything you will read in the bible or elsewhere, you will find support for your heart idols.

5. Any interpretation has to be pondered(chewed) with the guidance of the Holy Spirit on and establish by two witnesses. The Lord shown us the principle how to distinquish between clean and unclean [spiritual] foods and the manner of eating it. I have elaborated on this in the last half part of Post #178708.