The man in Romans 7 sins, it says in plain English that even though he wants to obey he can't do it. If that describes Christ you make Christ out to be a sinner who can NEVER SAVE YOU, He would need a Savior Himself.

Romans 7 describes sinful man who is trying to clean himself up. It does not describe Christ's human nature.

No, my position does not make EGW a false prophet, she explained what she meant by her words. But those quotes are pushed under the rug, and a man-made interpretation of her words are put in their place.

Christ's human nature is what we, through connection with His Divinity may be transformed into, it is not what we are born with.





WE are born with propensities to sin, Christ was not born with propensities to sin.

We must be converted and born again before we can gain true victories over sin, Christ did NOT have to be converted and born again or overcome propensities to sin.




Christ being made sin for us -- does not mean He had to battle against a host of evil propensities.

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

It means HE bore THE GUILT of our sins, and paid the penalty for those sins which the law of God's government demanded, He took our sins and died the death penalty the law demanded.

When we are baptized we are baptized into His death which He died for our sins, thus we count ourselves DEAD to sins and rise with Him to newness of life to live for Him in righteousness. (See Romans 8)




Christ understands us more intimately than you can imagine. Satan turned up his full arsenal of weapons against Christ trying to get Him to sin. But praise God's Holy name, Christ was perfectly holy and sinless.

(bold emphasis mine)

Well, Christ had a fallen human nature and a holy divine nature. So, even though Christ was tempted "just as we are", Jesus was never "just as we are". He was divine as we are not. A very hard mystery to understand, but, true all the same.

dedication wrote;

"The man in Romans 7 sins, it says in plain English that even though he wants to obey he can't do it. If that describes Christ you make Christ out to be a sinner who can NEVER SAVE YOU, He would need a Savior Himself.

Romans 7 describes sinful man who is trying to clean himself up. It does not describe Christ's human nature."

This is a completely true statement as the Bible teaches it. Can we all agree with this statement?

Yes, the man in Romans 7 sins. No, it is not describing Christ a sinner. Yes, it is describing the nature of man that Christ took and in that nature, never sinned. Christ "condemned sin in the flesh".
NO it does not. It is a man who is recognizing that he is utterly helpless and cannot save himself and he cries out, Romans 7:24-25 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Then read Romans 8!

Christ! Christ took on our fallen human nature and did not sin. This is grace. Grace is Christ's knowledge of how to save our fallen human nature because He went through it. Read Isaiah 53. Read Isaiah 53:11 and compare it with Titus 3:5-7. This is a Bible defining grace, being its own expositor. And where did He get the knowledge? Read all of Isaiah 53. He took on Himself our fallen sinful nature.

Christ’s life of humiliation should be a lesson to all who desire to exalt themselves above their fellow men. Though He had no taint of sin upon His character, yet He condescended to connect our fallen human nature with his divinity. By thus taking humanity, He honored humanity. Having taken our fallen nature, He showed what it might become by accepting the ample provision He has made for it, and by becoming [a] partaker of the divine nature. {Lt81-1896}

In humility Christ began His mighty work of lifting the fallen race from the degradation of sin, recovering them by His divine power, which He had linked with humanity. {Lt81-1896}

EGW is clear that Christ took our fallen sinful nature but maintained His character. Christ lowered Himself, condescending to take our nature and raise it up from the degradation of sin. That is the plan of redemption!

Christ came to set us an example of how to overcome. {Ms29-1886} Did christ overcome that which we must overcome? If not, then He is not our example. Are you learning to overcome as Christ overcame? {Ms18-1887} Revelation 3:21 To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. It is by overcoming the world, the flesh, and the devil that any student comes into possession of that knowledge that gives him access to the tree of life. We must all learn that we must overcome as Christ overcame in our behalf. {Ms161-1898} So why do some claim Christ had nothing to overcome that we have to overcome? It does not make sense.

The example He has left must be followed. He took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature, that He might know how to succor those that are tempted. {Lt67-1902} How can one say Christ did not truly take on Himself our sinful nature? This is how He understands!

First step --

We must address "grace".

Before we can "grow in grace" in Jesus Christ.
We must be saved by grace.

Grace is unmerited favor to sinful humans who don't deserve grace, but deserve punishment for their rebellion against the Sovereign God of all creation.

Christ took the guilt of our sins upon Himself and took that punishment in our place, so He can extend to us grace. (Something we do not deserve, but He so loves us)

Without grace all are under the law -- the law condemned us to death for the wages of sin is death, and all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. There is absolutely no way we can be justified by the law.

But because Christ took our sins and died our punishment, He can extend grace to us, and give us another chance to accept Him and become citizens of His kingdom.

That is marvelous grace.

Christ was born "under the law".
All were "kept under the law" till His coming, in faith looking forward to the grace He would bring. They died in the faith of a coming Savior who would redeem them.

Had Christ failed in His mission, had He failed to keep the law perfectly, all those people who died in the hope of a coming Redeemer from sin, would have hoped in vain.

In due time Christ came, born of a woman, born UNDER THE LAW.

To be under the law means that law must be kept perfectly in every detail, in absolute holiness and purity, or the law will condemn, and eternal death is the end.

For Christ there was no grace -- He MUST be justified by the law -- and only those who are perfectly sinless, never failing in even the least can be accounted just by the law. There is NO grace in the law.

It was only in living that perfect, sinless, holy, pure, undefiled human life, from birth to death, that Jesus is the only "human" that ever lived Who is accounted just or "justified" by the law.

It is by His shed blood that our sins are forgiven, and by His perfectly just and righteous life, which he credits to the repentant sinner that we are justified. We are not "under the law" condemned to death, but "under grace" alive to live for Christ!

This is the essential core of salvation.

What we need far more of is to focus on the glorious holiness of our Savior, not drag Him down to our low level.

Yes, He is our example.
But that example is what HE wants to change us into,
it's the life He wants to give us, as we walk daily with Him.

It's what we are to BECOME as his grace transforms our lives as we surrender fully to Him.

It's not an example of what we are -- it's not an example of our stumbling and fighting to overcome propensities of evil
He had NO propensities of evil, yes, He took on our fallen flesh, but NOT it's corruption.

Jesus was tempted in all POINTS as we are.
What are the points
" It is by overcoming the world, the flesh, and the devil"
Or from scripture---
1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Satan tailors temptations to match the individual being tempted.
It was on the same "POINTS" that all are tempted, but tailored for the individual.

Yes, Christ overcame the world,
--temptation #3 in the wilderness,
Satan offered Him the world, in partnership with him, an easier way then the humility and death on a cross --
Satan was constantly tempting Christ to side step the Father's will and take control of the world. He got the people saying "Come let us make Him king" -- Just think how we can defeat the Romans -- anyone hurt in battle would be healed or resurrected. The army would always be fed all they needed was a couple of fish and loaves will feed thousands...
Christ was not only fully human, He was fully divine, He COULD have used His divine powers to conquer the world, destroy satan and set up His kingdom then and there -- BUT THAT WAS not the heavenly plan, it was NOT God's will.

Yes, Jesus overcame the world.

Yes, He overcame the flesh
--temptation #1 -- do something against God's will to meet the needs of a tremendous physical hunger -- He was so hungry for food He was fainting.
People were constantly ridiculing and bullying Him in childhood as a "goody goody", in adulthood there were always people trying to trap Him. Irritations were in abundance. But He was always loving, compassionate, and unruffled, composed.
Yes, he overcame the flesh.

Yes, He overcame the devil
The devil could find nothing in Christ to make his temptations stick.
John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
14:31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do.
--

Christ did not have to overcome sin within, BECAUSE HE HAD NO SIN WITHIN TO OVERCOME. If people think He did, then they think He was a sinner. Christ was perfectly SINLESS. He overcame all the temptations that Satan hurled at Him, temptations tailored specifically for Christ, which covered all the POINTS upon which we are tempted.

We need to focus far more on the perfect HOLINESS, love and goodness of Christ. His matchless love and grace.
By beholding we become changed.
If we create a Christ full of sin, struggling to overcome it, we will never rise any higher than that.

Christ is our example of what He wants to do with our lives-- what we are to become, as we walk daily with Him. To be more and more like Jesus. He is NOT an example of what we are.
We need to be justified, born again, and learn to live a life of sanctification. He always lived the perfect sanctified life.

Did you not like the Bible definition of Grace?

Read again Revelation 3:21. So when it is written we must overcome as He overcame, you say this is false. I don't think so.

Christ was tempted on all points as we are. The word "all" means "all".

He took our nature and overcame, that we through taking His nature might overcome. Made "in the likeness of sinful flesh" (Romans 8:3), He lived a sinless life. Now by His divinity He lays hold upon the throne of heaven, while by His humanity He reaches us. {DA 311.5} Christ came all the way down to our level in order to take us up to His level. That is Gospel. He took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature, that He might know how to succor those that are tempted. {MM 181.3} While Adam was created sinless, in the likeness of God, Seth, like Cain, inherited the fallen nature of his parents. {PP 80.1} Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. {DA 48.5} The Catholic belief is that Christ did not inherit a fallen nature from His mother, leading to the belief of the imaculate conception that Mary experienced. But we know that Christ shares our heredity.

Read the last two EGW quotes again.

The question is not -- did Christ take on fallen human nature, the question is WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
The question is not -- are we to over come as He overcame, but rather again, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

CHRIST'S NATURE
Christ did not come in the form of pre-fall Adam, He did not possess the physical and mental vigor that Adam possessed. He came in a body with the physical heredity capacities common to His time. He was born with a human nature that was weakened by sin, and therefore severely limited as a means by which to resist sin. For example, in the flesh, Jesus could experience a level of weariness and exhaustion unfathomable to the pre-Fall Adam. Adam had mental capacities far superior to the mental capacities of man 4000 years after the fall.
Christ took on the full liabilities of the sin weakened physical body of mankind.
However, Jesus was not sickly(as the Catholic drawings depict Him) He could walk for miles, preach and heal all day and pray all night and do it all over again the next day. But like all humans He got tired, and needed rest, hungry and needed to eat, and probably foot sore from all that walking -- just like any human being.

Yes, Christ had weakened flesh that was susceptible to temptation. But remember though temptation attacks through the flesh, yet flesh in itself is not the source of sin.
The problem is, as we yield to sin, that sin implants itself in the flesh and demands more and more of the sin. This takes place even before we reach an age where we can really reason from a moral standpoint, because we are born carnal.
Thus sin becomes part and parcel of our flesh.
However, the flesh in itself is not sin. The sin is in our inclinations and propensities and desires for sin that we nurture in the flesh. These Christ did not have.

Remember scripture says, God will remove from us the stony heart and give us a heart of flesh. {Ezek. 11:19 & 36:26) Surely no one believes this "heart of flesh" is sin. No -- it is a heart that can feel love for truth, and suffer anguish when it comes in contact with sin.
Christ had this "heart of flesh" and He felt intense agony and sorrow when surrounded by sin. He also felt great compassion and genuine love for sinners in bondage to sin.

The difference is that we are born with a carnal nature that embeds sin into our flesh, and hardens our hearts and minds from an early age, and which then tempts us from within, as our inclinations are towards sin, and all we can do is sin, unless there is Divine intervention.
Whereas Christ was tempted from without, not from within -- He had no sin within. In either case, the flesh is the channel through which we experience temptation, but it is not, of itself, the source.

Our sinful propensities hide behind the flesh and express themselves through the flesh. So they are often referred to as the flesh itself.
Jesus life was perfectly sinless. There were no sinful habits or propensities embedded in His flesh that had to be overcome. His nature condemned sin in the flesh. Yet, He did not have the superior body and mind of Adam to resist the temptations from without. In His physical sin weakened flesh He resisted those temptations that were trying to lodge themselves in His flesh, and fully and completely kept them from lodging there.

He did NOT have corrupted flesh -- only sin weakened flesh. There is a big difference. He did not have to overcome sin that was established within -- there was no sin within.
This point MUST be upheld, for to do otherwise is to present Christ before the people as a sinner.

FOR US -- OVERCOMING SIN
It is so important to understand about Grace and justification.
When we come to Christ in repentance and claim His grace of unmerited favor which, totally forgives and credits our lives with His merits -- and accounts us as CLEAN, accepted by God, justified, and only then can we "grow in grace" as we reckon ourselves dead to sin (through Christ's death) and alive to serve and glorify Him (the power of resurrection), No longer dead IN sin, but dead TO sin and alive in Christ.



NOW, justified by His grace, we can overcome as Christ overcame--
Not to earn our justification, but motivated by the love and unfathomable gift of justification, we move forward to glorify our God and Savior.
Just as Christ came to glorify God.
How did Christ resist temptation?
By total surrender to God, and totally placing His human will, under the will of the Father.
We too are to totally surrender ourselves to Christ and place our will, under His will, walking daily with our Redeemer in love and obedience.
And that is how we overcome like Christ overcame --

He who took humanity upon Himself, knows just how to sympathize with the sufferings of humanity. He has the same nature as the sinner although He knew no sin, in order that He might be able to condemn sin in the flesh and might be able to sympathize with those who were in the difficulties, dangers, and temptations that beset His own path while He walked with men. They are to obtain help as He Himself obtained it, through a vital connection with God. {Lt35-1894}

Look to Jesus, your substitute and surety and righteousness. He became sin for us who knew no sin, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. He gives the crown of life to those who are faithful unto death. He it is who gives to eat of the hidden manna. My dear sister, Jesus will not leave you. He loves you with an everlasting love, and as you trust in Him your faith will grow and increase. The more you trust your Redeemer the more you will love Him. He is your Friend in life or in death. He is the crown of your rejoicing. He is worthy of your fullest faith. {Lt35-1894}

Christ was tempted AS WE ARE. Dedication say NO. Dedication says sin it not in the flesh. But it is written, Christ condemned sin IN THE FLESH. Christ BECAME SIN, Dedication say NO, because then He would be a sinner.

I'll take the Bible and EGW on this one, and it is Good News! Christ know EXACTLY how to solve the problem, because He went through it. Is our faithful high priest.

Hebrews 2:14-18 For as much then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For truly he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Why in all things it behooved him to be made like to his brothers, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself has suffered being tempted, he is able to succor them that are tempted.

I believe if you look back you will find where you initiated the "age of reasoning" thing.