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Re: What will we take to heaven....??
[Re: Nadi]
#182466
02/09/17 07:18 AM
02/09/17 07:18 AM
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SDA Active Member 2018
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Posts: 2,264
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I'm not real sure what you're flogging here, but let me clarify a few points from the way I see it. We don't chose salvation, we chose Jesus. We don't take anything to heaven, Jesus takes us. ...characters need to be transformed... That is in God's job description. ...life on earth is probationary time... As mentioned in the "probation" thread, this concept needs fleshing out, because I'm not finding a lot of support for this idea. People seem to use the term a lot assuming that everyone else "knows what they mean." In reality it does not seem to have a real clear definition. "Probation" has 2 meanings: 1)the release of an offender from detention, subject to a period of good behavior under supervision. and/or 2)the process or period of testing or observing the character or abilities of a person in a certain role, for example, a new employee. Neither of these two seem to fit with "salvation theory" for lack of a better term. So offer up your definition of "probation" and how/when/why it closes. btw, we are now officially derailed. I don't understand your point about probationary time. For my two cents worth; there is a time when salvation is available for mankind and a time when it is not. The time when salvation is available for mankind is probationary time.
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Re: What will we take to heaven....??
[Re: Alchemy]
#182497
02/13/17 02:15 PM
02/13/17 02:15 PM
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I disagree with the use of the term "probation." As I pointed out, every aspect of the term demands or implies behavioral performance of some kind, and as such it is a works-based concept. We are given a certain amount of time to get our characters in line with Christ's, etc., etc.
The problem with that is that salvation is by grace through faith; there are no works involved. We are powerless to change our characters. (Even your prophet EGW says this.)
So, while you are correct to say that "there is a time when salvation is available for mankind and a time when it is not.", this is not "probationary time." This is "choosing time," and as long as a person is alive and cognizant they can choose, right up to (IMHO) the time when Christ returns.
So "probation" never closes, because it was never open.
"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
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Re: What will we take to heaven....??
[Re: Rick H]
#182499
02/13/17 07:13 PM
02/13/17 07:13 PM
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Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
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Matt. 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If anyone will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Matt. 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Matt. 7:21 (Jesus spoke) Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.
Ephesians 5:5 For this you know with certainty, that no immoral, nor impure person, nor covetous, or idolatrous person, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things comes the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 5:7 Be not partakers with them. 5:8 For once you were in darkness, but now you partake of light in the Lord: walk as children of light: 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) 5:10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
Gal. 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap. 6:8 For he that sows to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 8:9 But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if it is true that the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 8:10 But if Christ is in you, the flesh is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 8:11 If the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwells in you. 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 8:13 For if we live after the flesh, we shall die: but if we through the Spirit are putting to death the deeds of the flesh, we shall live. 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
CONCLUSION
No, we are not saved by our works, they do not "earn" us any merits -- salvation is only in Christ. However, that does not mean the disobedient who simply "choose" to say they believe will be saved. The choice to accept Christ involves the turning from sin and full surrender to Christ IN OBEDIENCE to His will. That is called "faithfulness". Anything less is resisting the Holy Spirit and denying Christ.
If probation is not open -- we are all doomed, for all have sinned (sin is rebellion against God as our Master and Lord). Probation is the time when the Holy Spirit calls us to repentance, to "wash our robes in the blood of Christ, and leads us out of sin into a life of obedience with Christ. Our works do not save us, but they do show who our Master and Lord is. They show who has our allegiance and our hearts.
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Re: What will we take to heaven....??
[Re: Rick H]
#182500
02/13/17 08:11 PM
02/13/17 08:11 PM
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dedication, Not surprisingly, you completely missed the point of my last post.
"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
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Re: What will we take to heaven....??
[Re: dedication]
#182502
02/13/17 08:47 PM
02/13/17 08:47 PM
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(sin is rebellion against God as our Master and Lord). The problem with this definition of "sin" is that it is, while generically correct, is quite ambiguous, perhaps intentionally. It lacks any kind of concreteness, and is open to each person's interpretation. For example, I consider it a sin to screw my brother's wife, but the Lord put Onan to death for not making her pregnant (which obviously implies intercourse.) I consider genocide to be a sin, yet the Lord repeatedly ordered genocides in the OT. (Jericho, David and the Edomites, Saul and the Amalekites 1 Samuel 15:2-3, etc.) Polygamy is considered sin, yet Jacob had 2 wives AND screwed their handmaids as well, and ALL the offspring were considered tribes of Israel. Abraham couldn't produce a child by Sarah, so he humped her handmaid hoping to get a child. All God said about that was "No, your offspring will come by Sarah. Give Ishmael an inheritance and send him away." So to say "sin is rebellion against God as our Master and Lord" means nothing without some indication of how you translate that into today's socio-cultural mix. And how you interpret that is different from how I interpret that and how someone else interprets that and on and on and on.
"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
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Re: What will we take to heaven....??
[Re: Nadi]
#182503
02/14/17 01:46 PM
02/14/17 01:46 PM
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SDA Active Member 2018
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
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I disagree with the use of the term "probation." As I pointed out, every aspect of the term demands or implies behavioral performance of some kind, and as such it is a works-based concept. We are given a certain amount of time to get our characters in line with Christ's, etc., etc.
The problem with that is that salvation is by grace through faith; there are no works involved. We are powerless to change our characters. (Even your prophet EGW says this.)
So, while you are correct to say that "there is a time when salvation is available for mankind and a time when it is not.", this is not "probationary time." This is "choosing time," and as long as a person is alive and cognizant they can choose, right up to (IMHO) the time when Christ returns.
So "probation" never closes, because it was never open. That depends on what you mean by "works based". All because some work or deed is required doesn't mean it is work based. For instance; Keeping God's commandments is required to demonstrate love and faith toward God and love and respect toward mankind, yet, you can earn salvation by it.
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Re: What will we take to heaven....??
[Re: Alchemy]
#182508
02/14/17 03:48 PM
02/14/17 03:48 PM
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You are quite correct to say that it depends on the meaning of "works based." (More specifically, understanding what I intend when I use the term.) As such I would like to point out that my opposition is to the term "probation" and not the idea. We (humans) are on earth for a finite period of time, during which we may choose to follow Christ, or choose not to follow Christ. This is not "probation" because it is not based on behavior (as the term probation denotes) but upon choosing. Actually, it is God who is on probation as WE learn what HIS character (ie: behavior) is like. (There are huge implications to the above statement regarding choice which are outside the scope of this thread.) I am actually a strong believer in living a certain way because one is a Christian. Our behavior ("works", if you like) reveals our character, hence our choice. This is one of the reasons I reject ANY church as being "God's True Church" since the behavior of the leadership reveals their universal lack of Christian character and commitment to God. This is MOST true in churches which make the loftiest claims for themselves. ("Church" is here being used to indicate denominations.) Keeping God's commandments is required to demonstrate love and faith toward God and love and respect toward mankind, yet, you can earn salvation by it. By the way, I am assuming you meant we CANNOT earn salvation by it. But please clarify.
"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
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Re: What will we take to heaven....??
[Re: Nadi]
#182525
02/18/17 01:36 PM
02/18/17 01:36 PM
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SDA Active Member 2018
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
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You are quite correct to say that it depends on the meaning of "works based." (More specifically, understanding what I intend when I use the term.) As such I would like to point out that my opposition is to the term "probation" and not the idea. We (humans) are on earth for a finite period of time, during which we may choose to follow Christ, or choose not to follow Christ. This is not "probation" because it is not based on behavior (as the term probation denotes) but upon choosing. Actually, it is God who is on probation as WE learn what HIS character (ie: behavior) is like. (There are huge implications to the above statement regarding choice which are outside the scope of this thread.) I am actually a strong believer in living a certain way because one is a Christian. Our behavior ("works", if you like) reveals our character, hence our choice. This is one of the reasons I reject ANY church as being "God's True Church" since the behavior of the leadership reveals their universal lack of Christian character and commitment to God. This is MOST true in churches which make the loftiest claims for themselves. ("Church" is here being used to indicate denominations.) Keeping God's commandments is required to demonstrate love and faith toward God and love and respect toward mankind, yet, you can earn salvation by it. By the way, I am assuming you meant we CANNOT earn salvation by it. But please clarify. Thank you, Nadi. I meant to say " can't earn salvation."
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Re: What will we take to heaven....??
[Re: Elle]
#182553
02/20/17 03:21 PM
02/20/17 03:21 PM
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SDA Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,425
Midland
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These text only says what you cannot do while you are in the grave(the unseen). However what happens after the resurrection is another story and they will be able to do what they weren't able to do while being in the grave. None of these texts makes reference to our state after the resurrection nor is stating whether or not there is another opportunity. Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Re 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Re 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, Re 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. Re 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. Sorry, I still cannot read minds kland. Tell me what these texts says to you. Be explicite. You said none of Nadi's texts makes reference to our state after the resurrection nor is stating whether or not there is another opportunity. I gave some other texts.
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Re: What will we take to heaven....??
[Re: kland]
#182554
02/20/17 08:39 PM
02/20/17 08:39 PM
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Active Member 2019 Died February 12, 2019
2500+ Member
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
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Elle : These text only says what you cannot do while you are in the grave(the unseen). However what happens after the resurrection is another story and they will be able to do what they weren't able to do while being in the grave. None of these texts makes reference to our state after the resurrection nor is stating whether or not there is another opportunity.
Kland : Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Re 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Re 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, Re 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. Re 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Elle : Sorry, I still cannot read minds kland. Tell me what these texts says to you. Be explicite.
Kland : You said none of Nadi's texts makes reference to our state after the resurrection nor is stating whether or not there is another opportunity. I gave some other texts. Yes.... I was following... and I repeat myself... "Tell me what these texts says to you. Be explicite." or in Jesus own words " How readeth thou?" Luk 10:26
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