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Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration,
[Re: ]
#184315
07/02/17 06:10 AM
07/02/17 06:10 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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The problem with this discussion is that some want to separate two essential aspects of salvation (the need to have our sins forgiven, and the need for our hearts and minds to be brought in tune with God's righteous ways) and pit them against each other.
While the truth is that both are essential. The program is that some do not understand "forgiveness" and treat it like a legal issue. 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. The word translated "forgive" is Aphiemi, which has to do with the offender rather than the offended. It is a sending away, a causing to go into remission in the offender. It is not legal issue. That conclusion is pretty much disputable. When a person is pardoned for a crime everything you just stated is true for them. They have their legal rights restored. They are once again in the good graces of the lawful government. They are once again at peace with the lawful government. All of their legal issues are sent into remission. There is a healing of the relationship between them and the lawful government. In other words, the meaning of the word applies just as much to legal issues as it does to relationship issues. This is what you do on many subjects. You grasp onto one detail and ignore all evidence to the contrary. And Luke 6:37 is at odds with your point of view. In it the are the terms: judge, condemn and forgive. Each and every instance is a legal term. Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: Judge: 2919 krino kree'-no properly, to distinguish, i.e. decide (mentally or judicially); by implication, to try, condemn, punish:--avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think. condemn: 2613 katadikazo kat-ad-ik-ad'-zo from 2596 and a derivative of 1349; to adjudge against, i.e. pronounce guilty:--condemn. see GREEK for 2596 see GREEK for 1349 forgive: 630 apoluo ap-ol-oo'-o from 575 and 3089; to free fully, i.e. (literally) relieve, release, dismiss (reflexively, depart), or (figuratively) let die, pardon or (specially) divorce:--(let) depart, dismiss, divorce, forgive, let go, loose, put (send) away, release, set at liberty. see GREEK for 575 see GREEK for 3089 You do the same violence to scripture that Sequira does. He ignores vast areas of scripture that contradict what he says. He redefines words to mean only what he wants them to mean--private interpretation. You do exactly the same. You did not address 1 John 1:9 and the word Aphiemi. Are you saying I am wrong on that? If so you did not address it in your post.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration,
[Re: APL]
#184316
07/02/17 01:04 PM
07/02/17 01:04 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2018
Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
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The transgression of the physical law is the transgression of God’s law. —The Kress Collection, pp. 45, 46. {BLJ 310.6}
As for Israel, they are an example of how to end up ultimately crucifying our God. They did not follow God's ways. God did give them laws by which they could not live. Why? To minimize the damage of their downward sinful path. Laws including for divorce and polygamy. It was because of the hardness of their hearts.
Yes, salvation is a healing process.
Jeremiah 17:14 Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved: for you are my praise.
"Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven." Matthew 6:10.
The will of God is expressed in the precepts of His holy law, and the principles of this law are the principles of heaven. The angels of heaven attain unto no higher knowledge than to know the will of God, and to do His will is the highest service that can engage their powers. {MB 109.1}
But in heaven, service is not rendered in the spirit of legality. When Satan rebelled against the law of Jehovah, the thought that there was a law came to the angels almost as an awakening to something unthought of. In their ministry the angels are not as servants, but as sons. There is perfect unity between them and their Creator. Obedience is to them no drudgery. Love for God makes their service a joy. So in every soul wherein Christ, the hope of glory, dwells, His words are re-echoed, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart." Psalms 40:8. {MB 109.2}
Do any of us in our own power have the ability to keep the Law of God? NO. EGW even tells us that redemption and education are the same. Is that a legal process? Nope. Again APL, healing is a true application of salvation. But, it is not the only application. There is a legal application as well and this is not news! There are laws applicable to the Levitical Priesthood and the Melchizedek Priesthood. Laws, that must be followed for the effect of salvation to be accomplished. For the healing to be accomplished.
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Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration,
[Re: APL]
#184318
07/02/17 01:20 PM
07/02/17 01:20 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
Veteran Member
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Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 982
Colville, Wa
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The program is that some do not understand "forgiveness" and treat it like a legal issue. 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
The word translated "forgive" is Aphiemi, which has to do with the offender rather than the offended. It is a sending away, a causing to go into remission in the offender. It is not legal issue.
That conclusion is pretty much disputable. When a person is pardoned for a crime everything you just stated is true for them. They have their legal rights restored. They are once again in the good graces of the lawful government. They are once again at peace with the lawful government. All of their legal issues are sent into remission. There is a healing of the relationship between them and the lawful government. In other words, the meaning of the word applies just as much to legal issues as it does to relationship issues. This is what you do on many subjects. You grasp onto one detail and ignore all evidence to the contrary. And Luke 6:37 is at odds with your point of view. In it the are the terms: judge, condemn and forgive. Each and every instance is a legal term. Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: Judge: 2919 krino kree'-no properly, to distinguish, i.e. decide (mentally or judicially); by implication, to try, condemn, punish:--avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think. condemn: 2613 katadikazo kat-ad-ik-ad'-zo from 2596 and a derivative of 1349; to adjudge against, i.e. pronounce guilty:--condemn. see GREEK for 2596 see GREEK for 1349 forgive: 630 apoluo ap-ol-oo'-o from 575 and 3089; to free fully, i.e. (literally) relieve, release, dismiss (reflexively, depart), or (figuratively) let die, pardon or (specially) divorce:--(let) depart, dismiss, divorce, forgive, let go, loose, put (send) away, release, set at liberty. see GREEK for 575 see GREEK for 3089 You do the same violence to scripture that Sequira does. He ignores vast areas of scripture that contradict what he says. He redefines words to mean only what he wants them to mean--private interpretation. You do exactly the same. Are you saying I am wrong on that? If so you did not address it in your post. Your response that I bolded above is so ludicrous I don't really know what to say. You're either an outright shameless liar or you have the biggest reading comprehension problem of anyone I have ever run across.
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Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration,
[Re: ]
#184320
07/02/17 05:47 PM
07/02/17 05:47 PM
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OP
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,430
Canada
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The problem with this discussion is that some want to separate two essential aspects of salvation (the need to have our sins forgiven, and the need for our hearts and minds to be brought in tune with God's righteous ways) and pit them against each other.
While the truth is that both are essential. The program is that some do not understand "forgiveness" and treat it like a legal issue. 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. The word translated "forgive" is Aphiemi, which has to do with the offender rather than the offended. It is a sending away, a causing to go into remission in the offender. It is not legal issue. That conclusion is pretty much disputable. When a person is pardoned for a crime everything you just stated is true for them. They have their legal rights restored. They are once again in the good graces of the lawful government. They are once again at peace with the lawful government. All of their legal issues are sent into remission. There is a healing of the relationship between them and the lawful government. In other words, the meaning of the word applies just as much to legal issues as it does to relationship issues. This is what you do on many subjects. You grasp onto one detail and ignore all evidence to the contrary. And Luke 6:37 is at odds with your point of view. In it the are the terms: judge, condemn and forgive. Each and every instance is a legal term. Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: Judge: 2919 krino kree'-no properly, to distinguish, i.e. decide (mentally or judicially); by implication, to try, condemn, punish:--avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think. condemn: 2613 katadikazo kat-ad-ik-ad'-zo from 2596 and a derivative of 1349; to adjudge against, i.e. pronounce guilty:--condemn. see GREEK for 2596 see GREEK for 1349 forgive: 630 apoluo ap-ol-oo'-o from 575 and 3089; to free fully, i.e. (literally) relieve, release, dismiss (reflexively, depart), or (figuratively) let die, pardon or (specially) divorce:--(let) depart, dismiss, divorce, forgive, let go, loose, put (send) away, release, set at liberty. see GREEK for 575 see GREEK for 3089 You do the same violence to scripture that Sequira does. He ignores vast areas of scripture that contradict what he says. He redefines words to mean only what he wants them to mean--private interpretation. You do exactly the same. It seems obvious that APL did not read Gray K's answer, which I copied above, and which he himself quoted in his response. APL seems to be posting in a big hurry without careful reading, as seen in his typo "program" instead of "problem". If APL did read it, hopefully he wouldn't be posting that it wasn't answered, when indeed it was answered. Discussions would be more meaningful if everyone carefully read before answering.
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Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration,
[Re: ]
#184321
07/02/17 07:52 PM
07/02/17 07:52 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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The program is that some do not understand "forgiveness" and treat it like a legal issue. 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
The word translated "forgive" is Aphiemi, which has to do with the offender rather than the offended. It is a sending away, a causing to go into remission in the offender. It is not legal issue.
That conclusion is pretty much disputable. When a person is pardoned for a crime everything you just stated is true for them. They have their legal rights restored. They are once again in the good graces of the lawful government. They are once again at peace with the lawful government. All of their legal issues are sent into remission. There is a healing of the relationship between them and the lawful government. In other words, the meaning of the word applies just as much to legal issues as it does to relationship issues. This is what you do on many subjects. You grasp onto one detail and ignore all evidence to the contrary. And Luke 6:37 is at odds with your point of view. In it the are the terms: judge, condemn and forgive. Each and every instance is a legal term. Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: Judge: 2919 krino kree'-no properly, to distinguish, i.e. decide (mentally or judicially); by implication, to try, condemn, punish:--avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think. condemn: 2613 katadikazo kat-ad-ik-ad'-zo from 2596 and a derivative of 1349; to adjudge against, i.e. pronounce guilty:--condemn. see GREEK for 2596 see GREEK for 1349 forgive: 630 apoluo ap-ol-oo'-o from 575 and 3089; to free fully, i.e. (literally) relieve, release, dismiss (reflexively, depart), or (figuratively) let die, pardon or (specially) divorce:--(let) depart, dismiss, divorce, forgive, let go, loose, put (send) away, release, set at liberty. see GREEK for 575 see GREEK for 3089 You do the same violence to scripture that Sequira does. He ignores vast areas of scripture that contradict what he says. He redefines words to mean only what he wants them to mean--private interpretation. You do exactly the same. Are you saying I am wrong on that? If so you did not address it in your post. Your response that I bolded above is so ludicrous I don't really know what to say. You're either an outright shameless liar or you have the biggest reading comprehension problem of anyone I have ever run across. Um - I do not see in your post where you address the word Aphiemi. Perhaps you can enlighten my reading comprehension. But if you did not address it, then I will accept your apology.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration,
[Re: dedication]
#184322
07/02/17 07:59 PM
07/02/17 07:59 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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NOTE - there definately several terms that are translated forgive. There is the term that means not holding something against another. We humans do that all the time. But not God. In 1 John 1:9, the term translated forgive is not speaking of the offended, but the offender. It is causing the offender's sin to remit, go into remission, to send it away. And following Hebrew parallelism, the second have the verse re-emphasizes that fact. It is not a legal process as God does not hold anything legally against us. In that respect, he is forgiveness personified. But that does not save us. It is the healing process that saves us. Jeremiah 17:14 Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved: for you are my praise.
So Good News - you are legally off the hook!!! Great, now move on to the important things.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration,
[Re: APL]
#184324
07/02/17 08:33 PM
07/02/17 08:33 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
Veteran Member
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Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 982
Colville, Wa
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You did not address 1 John 1:9 and the word Aphiemi. Are you saying I am wrong on that? If so you did not address it in your post.
Your response that I bolded above is so ludicrous I don't really know what to say. You're either an outright shameless liar or you have the biggest reading comprehension problem of anyone I have ever run across. Um - I do not see in your post where you address the word Aphiemi. Perhaps you can enlighten my reading comprehension. But if you did not address it, then I will accept your apology. Really? You just quoted it for the 3rd time. The first time you cut off what I said by one sentence so you could misrepresent my position. The second time you said I had not addressed 1John 1:9 while quoting my reply. Now you say you have never read it while quoting it for the third time. You quote me three times and have responded directly to what I said once, and then deny having ever read what I said. Do you pay any attention at all to what other people actually say to you? Evidently not. You leave me shaking my head in amazement. I cannot quote the entire series of posts again as the software will not allow me to quote 4 levels deep so just go back and read your last post that includes quotes of mine and your replies to them.
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Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration,
[Re: dedication]
#184326
07/02/17 10:44 PM
07/02/17 10:44 PM
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OP
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,430
Canada
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There would be no need for an "investigating judgment,(Dan.7)
a judge, (Romans 2:26, 3:6)
an intercessor, (Romans 8:35; Heb. 7:25)
a mediator,(1 Tim 2:5, Hebrews 8:6)
a ransom, (1 Tim 2:6. Matt. 2:28, )
propitiation through His blood (Romans 3:25 Ep. 1:7 Col. 1:14)
records being opened, (Daniel 7:10 Rev. 20:12 Rev. 3:5)
an investigation made looking for evidence, (1Chr. 28:9, Romans 8:27 Rev. 2:23)
and a record made of who is saved and who is not, (Rev. 3:5)
if there was no legal process.
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Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration,
[Re: APL]
#184327
07/02/17 11:04 PM
07/02/17 11:04 PM
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OP
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,430
Canada
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It is not a legal process as God does not hold anything legally against us. In that respect, he is forgiveness personified. But that does not save us. It is the healing process that saves us. Jeremiah 17:14 Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved: for you are my praise.
So Good News - you are legally off the hook!!! Great, now move on to the important things. So basically you are saying, God's law has no legal backing, as long as there are no "intrinsic" repercussions, it doesn't really matter if one disobeys, there is no "punishment" all is forgiven, no records kept, no accountability, no need for a substitute to take our punishment, etc.. The only problem is the reaping of the "intrinsic" effects. God doesn't care when people break His law, He only cares about you being "hurt" due to your transgressions? That makes the whole Sunday/Saturday issue of no consequence! Oh, yes, I know you have shared the intrinsic effects caused when people don't take time to rest one day in seven. But all those "intrinsic effects" can be avoided on Sunday as well as on Sabbath? So I don't suppose you'll have any problems when the Sunday laws are passed??? It's still avoiding all the "intrinsic" problems faced when a rest day in a seven day cycle is avoided???
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Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration,
[Re: dedication]
#184328
07/02/17 11:19 PM
07/02/17 11:19 PM
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OP
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,430
Canada
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Let me give a little lesson in "comprehension" APL wrote: 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
The word translated "forgive" is Aphiemi, which has to do with the offender rather than the offended. It is a sending away, a causing to go into remission in the offender. It is not legal issue. Gary answered that post: (his words are in color) That conclusion is pretty much disputable.What conclusion is Gary referring to? The comprehensive reader goes back to APL's conclusion of the meaning of the word "Aphiemi"! When a person is pardoned for a crime everything you just stated is true for them. They have their legal rights restored. They are once again in the good graces of the lawful government. They are once again at peace with the lawful government. All of their legal issues are sent into remission. There is a healing of the relationship between them and the lawful government.
In other words, the meaning of the word applies just as much to legal issues as it does to relationship issues.What word is Gary referring to? The comprehensive reader comprehends that "the word" under discussion is the word "Aphiemi".
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