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Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration, [Re: APL] #184329
07/02/17 11:22 PM
07/02/17 11:22 PM
G
Garywk  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

Veteran Member
Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 982
Colville, Wa
Originally Posted By: APL
NOTE - there definately several terms that are translated forgive. There is the term that means not holding something against another. We humans do that all the time. But not God. In 1 John 1:9, the term translated forgive is not speaking of the offended, but the offender. It is causing the offender's sin to remit, go into remission, to send it away. And following Hebrew parallelism, the second have the verse re-emphasizes that fact. It is not a legal process as God does not hold anything legally against us. In that respect, he is forgiveness personified. But that does not save us. It is the healing process that saves us. Jeremiah 17:14 Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved: for you are my praise.

So Good News - you are legally off the hook!!! Great, now move on to the important things.


Once again you deny scripture. Luke 6:30 says judge not so you will not be judged. Condemn not so you will not be condemned. Who will be doing the judging and condemning if we judge and condemn? God will. He will hold it against us.

As soon as you acknowledge that breaking God's law is a legal issue it destroys the foundation for God's law being intrinsic and that God does not kill.

His law cannot be both intrinsic and of legal origin at the same time, neither can the punishment for breaking it be both instrinsic and legal punishment at the same time.

God's law is prescriptive in that it reveals and defines sin. His law is the prescription for our sin-sick world, and guarantees the peace and harmony of the rest of the universe. We cannot honestly look into that perfect law of liberty and go away not knowing who, and what, we are.

It does not change us intrinsically. We have to go to Jesus and accept Him and His sacrifice. This is why Jesus became our kinsman, our nearest of kin with the ability to pay our debt. It gave Him the legal justification He needed to save us.

God's government is administered by the rule of law. It is a legal government. It is not an intrinsic government. God actually rules, and His laws by which He governs the universe were created by Him for this purpose.

Quote:
The Lord is our Creator, and we are his children, subject to his rule. God’s method of government is an example of how parents are to train their children. There is no oppression in the Lord’s service, and there is to be no oppression in the home. Parents and guardians are to treat those under their care even as God treats his earthly children, with kindness and love. {RH April 21, 1904, par. 20}


Quote:
The law of God existed before man was created. The angels were governed by it. Satan fell because he transgressed the principles of God’s government. After Adam and Eve were created, God made known to them his law. It was not then written, but was rehearsed to them by Jehovah. {ST June 10, 1880, par. 7}
The Sabbath of the fourth commandment was instituted in Eden. The principles embodied in the decalogue existed before the fall, and were suited to the condition of holy beings. After the fall, these principles were not changed, nothing was taken from the law of God, but additional precepts were given to meet man in his fallen state. {ST June 10, 1880, par. 8}
A system of sacrifices was then established, to keep before the fallen race that which the serpent made Eve disbelieve, that the penalty of disobedience is death. The transgression of God’s law made it necessary for Christ to die as a sacrifice; for only thus could he redeem man from the penalty of the broken law, and yet maintain the honor of the divine government. The sacrificial system was designed to teach man humility, in view of his fallen condition, and to lead him to repentance toward God and faith in the promised Redeemer for pardon of past transgressions. Had the law of God never been transgressed, there would have been no death, and hence no need of additional precepts to suit man’s fallen condition. {ST June 10, 1880, par. 9}


Now, why was the penalty not imposed as soon as Adam and Eve sinned. Ellen White answers this question, and in answering it does not say that it is because the law is intrinsic.

Quote:
All that God and Christ could do has been done to save sinners. Transgression placed the whole world in jeopardy, under the death sentence. But in heaven there was heard a voice saying, I have found a ransom. Jesus Christ, who knew no sin, was made sin for fallen man. “God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” Christ gave Himself as a ransom. He laid off His royal robe. He laid aside His kingly crown, and stepped down from His high command over all heaven, clothing His divinity with humanity that He might carry all the infirmities and bear all the temptations of humanity.—Letter 22, 1900.


Quote:
Of Christ’s relation to His people, there is a beautiful illustration in the laws given to Israel. When through poverty a Hebrew had been forced to part with his patrimony, and to sell himself as a bond servant, the duty of redeeming him and his inheritance fell to the one who was nearest of kin. See Leviticus 25:25, 47-49; Ruth 2:20. So the work of redeeming us and our inheritance, lost through sin, fell upon Him who is “near of kin” unto us. It was to redeem us that He became our kinsman. Closer than father, mother, brother, friend, or lover is the Lord our Saviour. “Fear not,” He says, “for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art Mine.” “Since thou wast precious in My sight, thou hast been honorable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life.” Isaiah 43:1, 4. Desire of Ages p. 327


Quote:
Through type and promise God “preached before the gospel unto Abraham.” Galatians 3:8. And the patriarch’s faith was fixed upon the Redeemer to come. Said Christ to the Jews. “Your father Abraham rejoiced that he should see My day; and he saw it, and was glad.” John 8:56, R.V., margin. The ram offered in the place of Isaac represented the Son of God, who was to be sacrificed in our stead. When man was doomed to death by transgression of the law of God, the Father, looking upon his Son, said to the sinner, “Live: I have found a ransom.” Patriarchs and Prophets p. 154


The above makes it crystal clear that the punishment for sin was not immediately imposed because Christ was to pay our ransom. The death required by the judicial code of God was to be paid by the only One who could pay the debt. One equal with God and who became a man.

Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration, [Re: dedication] #184330
07/02/17 11:29 PM
07/02/17 11:29 PM
G
Garywk  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

Veteran Member
Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 982
Colville, Wa
Originally Posted By: dedication
Let me give a little lesson in "comprehension"

APL wrote:
Originally Posted By: APL
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
The word translated "forgive" is Aphiemi, which has to do with the offender rather than the offended. It is a sending away, a causing to go into remission in the offender. It is not legal issue.


Gary answered that post: (his words are in color)
That conclusion is pretty much disputable.
What conclusion is Gary referring to? The comprehensive reader goes back to APL's conclusion of the meaning of the word "Aphiemi"!

When a person is pardoned for a crime everything you just stated is true for them. They have their legal rights restored. They are once again in the good graces of the lawful government. They are once again at peace with the lawful government. All of their legal issues are sent into remission. There is a healing of the relationship between them and the lawful government.

In other words, the meaning of the word applies just as much to legal issues as it does to relationship issues.


What word is Gary referring to?
The comprehensive reader comprehends that "the word" under discussion is the word "Aphiemi".

Thanks, dedication. I thought it was so clear as to be basically impossible to be misunderstood by an honest person.

Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration, [Re: dedication] #184331
07/03/17 12:58 AM
07/03/17 12:58 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
APL,

Your focus on the Greek word "aphiemi" seems a little misplaced. As Mrs. White says, words do not always have the same meaning, and we should not be overly focused on them or insistent that they must be used in a certain way to the exclusion of others. (See the quote below, with special focus on the first and the second-to-last paragraphs--more of the statement provided for context.)

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Human minds vary. The minds of different education and thought receive different impressions of the same words, and it is difficult for one mind to give to one of a different temperament, education, and habits of thought by language exactly the same idea as that which is clear and distinct in his own mind. Yet to honest men, right-minded men, he can be so simple and plain as to convey his meaning for all practical purposes. If the man he communicates with is not honest and will not want to see and understand the truth, he will turn his words and language in everything to suit his own purposes. He will misconstrue his words, play upon his imagination, wrest them from their true meaning, and then entrench himself in unbelief, claiming that the sentiments are all wrong. {1SM 19.1}

This is the way my writings are treated by those who wish to misunderstand and pervert them. They turn the truth of God into a lie. In the very same way that they treat the writings in my published articles and in my books, so do skeptics and infidels treat the Bible. They read it according to their desire to pervert, to misapply, to willfully wrest the utterances from their true meaning. They declare that the Bible can prove anything and everything, that every sect proves their doctrines right, and that the most diverse doctrines are proved from the Bible. {1SM 19.2}

The writers of the Bible had to express their ideas in human language. It was written by human men. These men were inspired of the Holy Spirit. Because of the imperfections of human understanding of language, or the perversity of the human mind, ingenious in evading truth, many read and understand the Bible to please themselves. It is not that the difficulty is in the Bible. Opposing politicians argue points of law in the statute book, and take opposite views in their application and in these laws. {1SM 19.3}

The Scriptures were given to men, not in a continuous chain of unbroken utterances, but piece by piece through successive generations, as God in His providence saw a fitting opportunity to impress man at sundry times and divers places. Men wrote as they were moved upon by the Holy Ghost. There is "first the bud, then the blossom, and next the fruit," "first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear." This is exactly what the Bible utterances are to us. {1SM 19.4}

There is not always perfect order or apparent unity in the Scriptures. The miracles of Christ are not given in exact order, but are given just as the circumstances occurred, which called for this divine revealing of the power of Christ. The truths of the Bible are as pearls hidden. They must be searched, dug out by painstaking effort. Those who take only a surface view of the Scriptures will, with their superficial knowledge, which they think is very deep, talk of the contradictions of the Bible, and question the authority of the Scriptures. But those whose hearts are in harmony with truth and duty will search the Scriptures with a heart prepared to receive divine impressions. The illuminated soul sees a spiritual unity, one grand golden thread running through the whole, but it requires patience, thought, and prayer to trace out the precious golden thread. Sharp contentions over the Bible have led to investigation and revealed the precious jewels of truth. Many tears have been shed, many prayers offered, that the Lord would open the understanding to His Word. {1SM 20.1}

The Bible is not given to us in grand superhuman language. Jesus, in order to reach man where he is, took humanity. The Bible must be given in the language of men. Everything that is human is imperfect. Different meanings are expressed by the same word; there is not one word for each distinct idea. The Bible was given for practical purposes. {1SM 20.2}

The stamps of minds are different. All do not understand expressions and statements alike. Some understand the statements of the Scriptures to suit their own particular minds and cases. Prepossessions, prejudices, and passions have a strong influence to darken the understanding and confuse the mind even in reading the words of Holy Writ. {1SM 20.3}


The word "aphiemi" is one I have studied carefully. It has different meanings and usages, just as words like "take" have in English. The word "take" in English may occupy an entire page in the dictionary in giving the sense for its various usages, and the word "aphiemi" similarly occupies a lengthy portion in describing its usages, which are many. "Remit" is hardly the only way in which it is used. In fact, I would suggest that this usage is among the least of its applications.

The word "aphiemi" (G863) is variously translated as: "AV — leave 52, forgive 47, suffer 14, let 8, forsake 6, let alone 6, misc 13" with a Strong's definition of "ἀφίημι aphíēmi, af-ee'-ay-mee; from G575 and ἵημι híēmi (to send; an intensive form of εἶμι eîmi, to go); to send forth, in various applications (as follow):—cry, forgive, forsake, lay aside, leave, let (alone, be, go, have), omit, put (send) away, remit, suffer, yield up."


Mat 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer G863 it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered G863 him.
Mat 4:11 Then the devil leaveth G863 him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.
Mat 4:20 And they straightway left G863 their nets, and followed him.
Mat 4:22 And they immediately left G863 the ship and their father, and followed him.
Mat 5:24 Leave G863 there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
Mat 5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let G863 G0 him have G863 thy cloke also.
Mat 6:12 And forgive G863 us our debts, as we forgive G863 our debtors.
Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive G863 men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive G863 you:
Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive G863 not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive G863 your trespasses.
Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let G863 me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Mat 8:15 And he touched her hand, and the fever left G863 her: and she arose, and ministered unto them.
Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let G863 the dead bury their dead.
Mat 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven G863 thee.
Mat 9:5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven G863 thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?
Mat 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive G863 sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven G863 unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall G863 G0 not be forgiven G863 unto men.
Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven G863 him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall G863 G0 not be forgiven G863 him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Mat 13:30 Let G863 both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent G863 G0 the multitude away, G863 and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Mat 15:14 Let G863 G0 them alone: G863 they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Mat 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he G863 G0 not leave G863 the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive G863 him? till seven times?
Mat 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave G863 him the debt.
Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave G863 thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive G863 not every one his brother their trespasses.
Mat 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer G863 little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken G863 all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
Mat 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken G863 houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
Mat 22:22 When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and left G863 him, and went their way.
Mat 22:25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left G863 his wife unto his brother:
Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye G863 them that are entering to go in.
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted G863 the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave G863 G0 the other undone. G863
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left G863 unto you desolate.
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall G863 G0 not be left G863 here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. G863
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. G863
Mat 26:44 And he left G863 them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.
Mat 26:56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook G863 him, and fled.
Mat 27:49 The rest said, Let be, G863 let us see whether Elias will come to save him.
Mat 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up G863 the ghost.
Mar 1:18 And straightway they forsook G863 their nets, and followed him.
Mar 1:20 And straightway he called them: and they left G863 their father Zebedee in the ship with the hired servants, and went after him.
Mar 1:31 And he came and took her by the hand, and lifted her up; and immediately the fever left G863 her, and she ministered unto them.
Mar 1:34 And he healed many that were sick of divers diseases, and cast out many devils; and suffered G863 not the devils to speak, because they knew him.
Mar 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven G863 thee.
Mar 2:7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive G863 sins but God only?
Mar 2:9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven G863 thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?
Mar 2:10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive G863 sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven G863 unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven G863 them.
Mar 4:36 And when they had sent away G863 the multitude, they took him even as he was in the ship. And there were also with him other little ships.
Mar 5:19 Howbeit Jesus suffered G863 him not, but saith unto him, Go home to thy friends, and tell them how great things the Lord hath done for thee, and hath had compassion on thee.
Mar 5:37 And he suffered G863 no man to follow him, save Peter, and James, and John the brother of James.
Mar 7:8 For laying aside G863 the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mar 7:12 And ye suffer G863 him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
Mar 7:27 But Jesus said unto her, Let G863 the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.
Mar 8:13 And he left G863 them, and entering into the ship again departed to the other side.
Mar 10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer G863 the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
Mar 10:28 Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left G863 all, and have followed thee.
Mar 10:29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left G863 house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
Mar 11:6 And they said unto them even as Jesus had commanded: and they let G863 G0 them go. G863
Mar 11:16 And would G863 G0 not suffer G863 that any man should carry any vessel through the temple.
Mar 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, G863 if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive G863 you your trespasses.
Mar 11:26 But if ye do G863 G0 not forgive, G863 neither will G863 G0 your Father which is in heaven forgive G863 your trespasses.
Mar 12:12 And they sought to lay hold on him, but feared the people: for they knew that he had spoken the parable against them: and they left G863 him, and went their way.
Mar 12:19 Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave G863 no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
Mar 12:20 Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying left G863 no seed.
Mar 12:21 And the second took her, and died, neither left G863 he any seed: and the third likewise.
Mar 12:22 And the seven had her, and left G863 no seed: last of all the woman died also.
Mar 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall G863 G0 not be left G863 one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mar 13:34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left G863 his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
Mar 14:6 And Jesus said, Let G863 G0 her alone; G863 why trouble ye her? she hath wrought a good work on me.
Mar 14:50 And they all forsook G863 him, and fled.
Mar 15:36 And one ran and filled a spunge full of vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying, Let alone; G863 let us see whether Elias will come to take him down.
Mar 15:37 And Jesus cried G863 with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.
Luk 4:39 And he stood over her, and rebuked the fever; and it left G863 her: and immediately she arose and ministered unto them.
Luk 5:11 And when they had brought their ships to land, they forsook G863 all, and followed him.
Luk 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven G863 thee.
Luk 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive G863 sins, but God alone?
Luk 5:23 Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven G863 thee; or to say, Rise up and walk?
Luk 5:24 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive G863 sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house.
Luk 6:42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me G863 pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.
Luk 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; G863 for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, G863 the same loveth little.
Luk 7:48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. G863
Luk 7:49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth G863 sins also?
Luk 8:51 And when he came into the house, he suffered G863 no man to go in, save Peter, and James, and John, and the father and the mother of the maiden.
Luk 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let G863 the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.
Luk 10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving G863 him half dead.
Luk 11:4 And forgive G863 us our sins; for we also forgive G863 every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.
Luk 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave G863 G0 the other undone. G863
Luk 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven G863 him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall G863 G0 not be forgiven. G863
Luk 12:39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered G863 his house to be broken through.
Luk 13:8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let G863 G0 it alone G863 this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
Luk 13:35 Behold, your house is left G863 unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Luk 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive G863 him.
Luk 17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive G863 him.
Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. G863
Luk 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. G863
Luk 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. G863
Luk 18:16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer G863 little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
Luk 18:28 Then Peter said, Lo, we have left G863 all, and followed thee.
Luk 18:29 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left G863 house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake,
Luk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall G863 G0 not leave G863 in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
Luk 21:6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall G863 G0 not be left G863 one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive G863 them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
Jhn 4:3 He left G863 Judaea, and departed again into Galilee.
Jhn 4:28 The woman then left G863 her waterpot, and went her way into the city, and saith to the men,
Jhn 4:52 Then enquired he of them the hour when he began to amend. And they said unto him, Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever left G863 him.
Jhn 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath G863 G0 not left G863 me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
Jhn 10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth G863 the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
Jhn 11:44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him G863 go.
Jhn 11:48 If we let G863 G0 him thus alone, G863 all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
Jhn 12:7 Then said Jesus, Let G863 G0 her alone: G863 against the day of my burying hath she kept this.
Jhn 14:18 I will G863 G0 not leave G863 you comfortless: I will come to you.
Jhn 14:27 Peace I leave G863 with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
Jhn 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave G863 the world, and go to the Father.
Jhn 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave G863 me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
Jhn 18:8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let G863 these go their way:
Jhn 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, G863 they are remitted G863 unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Act 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven G863 thee.
Act 14:17 Nevertheless he left G863 not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving G863 the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, G863 and whose sins are covered.
1Co 7:11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let G863 G0 not the husband put away G863 his wife.
1Co 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him G863 G0 not put G863 G0 her away. G863
1Co 7:13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her G863 G0 not leave G863 him.
Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left G863 nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving G863 the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven G863 him.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive G863 us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven G863 you for his name's sake.
Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left G863 thy first love.
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall G863 G0 not suffer G863 their dead bodies to be put in graves.


As the entire corpus of "aphiemi" texts is reviewed, it becomes quickly apparent that its meaning is not limited to "remit," and, furthermore, in cases where there is an offender, the offended is also involved.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration, [Re: dedication] #184332
07/03/17 02:25 AM
07/03/17 02:25 AM
APL  Offline
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And when you look at the trust of the work, sending away, remitting, removing, leaving, putting away, etc. And 1 John 1:9 in that context is not legal, but healing. But again, GOOD NEWS - God does not hold anything against anyone. But that is not going to save you.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration, [Re: APL] #184335
07/03/17 06:23 AM
07/03/17 06:23 AM
G
Garywk  Offline
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Posts: 982
Colville, Wa
Originally Posted By: APL
And when you look at the trust of the work, sending away, remitting, removing, leaving, putting away, etc. And 1 John 1:9 in that context is not legal, but healing. But again, GOOD NEWS - God does not hold anything against anyone. But that is not going to save you.


Just what do you think a pardon is?

Quote:

The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 (gcide)
Pardon Par"don (p[aum]r"d'n), n. [F., fr. pardonner to pardon.
See Pardon, v. t.]
1. The act of pardoning; forgiveness, as of an offender, or
of an offense; release from penalty; remission of
punishment; absolution.
[1913 Webster]

Pardon, my lord, for me and for my tidings. --Shak.
[1913 Webster]

But infinite in pardon was my judge. --Milton.
[1913 Webster]

Usage: Used in expressing courteous denial or contradiction;
as, I beg your pardon; or in indicating that one has
not understood another; as, I beg pardon; or pardon
me?.
[1913 Webster +PJC]

2. An official warrant of remission of penalty.
[1913 Webster]

Sign me a present pardon for my brother. --Shak.
[1913 Webster]

3. The state of being forgiven. --South.
[1913 Webster]

4. (Law) A release, by a sovereign, or officer having
jurisdiction, from the penalties of an offense, being
distinguished from amnesty, which is a general
obliteration and canceling of a particular line of past
offenses.
[1913 Webster]

Syn: Forgiveness; remission. See Forgiveness.
[1913 Webster]


The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 (gcide)
Pardon Par"don, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Pardoned (p[aum]r"d'nd);
p. pr. & vb. n. Pardoning.] [Either fr. pardon, n., or from
F. pardonner, LL. perdonare; L. per through, thoroughly,
perfectly + donare to give, to present. See Par-, and
Donation.]
1. To absolve from the consequences of a fault or the
punishment of crime; to free from penalty; -- applied to
the offender.
[1913 Webster]

In this thing the Lord pardon thy servant. --2 Kings
v. 18.
[1913 Webster]

I pray you, pardon me; pray heartily, pardon me.
--Shak.
[1913 Webster]

2. To remit the penalty of; to suffer to pass without
punishment; to forgive; -- applied to offenses.
[1913 Webster]

I pray thee, pardon my sin. --1 Sam. xv.
25.
[1913 Webster]

Apollo, pardon
My great profaneness 'gainst thine oracle! --Shak.
[1913 Webster]

3. To refrain from exacting as a penalty.
[1913 Webster]

I pardon thee thy life before thou ask it. --Shak.
[1913 Webster]

4. To give leave (of departure) to. [Obs.]
[1913 Webster]

Even now about it! I will pardon you. --Shak.
[1913 Webster]

Pardon me, forgive me; excuse me; -- a phrase used also to
express courteous denial or contradiction, or to request
forgiveness for a mild transgression, such as bumping a
person while passing.
[1913 Webster +PJC]

Syn: To forgive; absolve; excuse; overlook; remit; acquit.
See Excuse.
[1913 Webster]


WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006) (wn)
pardon
n 1: the act of excusing a mistake or offense [syn:
forgiveness, pardon]
2: a warrant granting release from punishment for an offense
[syn: pardon, amnesty]
3: the formal act of liberating someone [syn: amnesty,
pardon, free pardon]
v 1: accept an excuse for; "Please excuse my dirty hands" [syn:
excuse, pardon]
2: grant a pardon to; "Ford pardoned Nixon"; "The Thanksgiving
turkey was pardoned by the President"


Moby Thesaurus II by Grady Ward, 1.0 (moby-thesaurus)
110 Moby Thesaurus words for "pardon":
absolution, absolve, accept, acquit, acquittal, acquittance, allow,
allowance, amnesty, benevolence, clear, clearance, clearing,
clemency, commiseration, compassion, compurgation, condolence,
condonation, condone, decontaminate, destigmatization,
destigmatize, destigmatizing, discharge, disculpation, dismiss,
dismissal, dispense from, exculpate, exculpation, excusal, excuse,
exempt, exempt from, exemption, exonerate, exoneration, favor,
feeling, forbear, forbearance, forgive, forgiveness, forgiving,
free, give absolution, give quarter, grace, grant amnesty to,
grant forgiveness, grant immunity, grant remission,
have mercy upon, have pity, humanity, immunity, indemnification,
indemnity, indulge, indulgence, justification, justify, kindness,
leniency, let go, let off, let up on, liberate, melt, mercy,
mitigation, nonpros, overlook, overlooking, pathos, pity,
purgation, purge, purging, quarter, quash the charge, quietus,
quittance, redemption, relax, release, relent, relief, remission,
remission of sin, remit, reprieve, ruth, self-pity, set free,
shrift, shrive, small-town, spare, sparing, sympathy, take pity on,
thaw, tolerate, verdict of acquittal, vindicate, vindication,
whitewash, withdraw the charge




Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary (easton)
Pardon
the forgiveness of sins granted freely (Isa. 43:25), readily
(Neh. 9:17; Ps. 86:5), abundantly (Isa. 55:7; Rom. 5:20). Pardon
is an act of a sovereign, in pure sovereignty, granting simply a
remission of the penalty due to sin, but securing neither honour
nor reward to the pardoned. Justification (q.v.), on the other
hand, is the act of a judge, and not of a sovereign, and
includes pardon and, at the same time, a title to all the
rewards and blessings promised in the covenant of life.



Bouvier's Law Dictionary, Revised 6th Ed (1856) (bouvier)
PARDON, crim. law, pleading. A pardon is an act of grace, proceeding from
the power entrusted with the execution of the laws, which exempts the
individual on whom it is bestowed, from the punishment the law inflicts for
a crime he has committed. 7 Pet. S. C. Rep. 160.
2. Every pardon granted to the guilty is in derogation of the law; if
the pardon be equitable, the law is, bad; for where legislation and the
administration of the law are perfect, pardons must be a violation of the
law, But as human actions are necessarily imperfect, the pardoning power
must be vested somewhere in order to prevent injustice, when it is
ascertained that an error has been committed.
3. The subject will be considered with regard, 1. To the kinds of
pardons. 2. By whom they are to be granted. 3. For what offences. 4. How to
be taken advantage of 5. Their effect.
4.-Sec. 1, Pardons are general or special. 1. The former are express,
when an act of the legislature is passed expressly directing that offences
of a certain class; shall be pardoned, as in the case of an act of amnesty.
See Amnesty. A general pardon is implied by the repeal of a penal statute,
because, unless otherwise provided by law, an offence against such statute
while it was in force cannot be punished, and the offender goes free. 2
Overt. 423. 2. Special pardons are those which are granted by the pardoning
power for particular cases.
5. Pardons are also divided into absolute and conditional. The former
are those which free the criminal without any condition whatever; the.
fatter are those to which a condition is annexed, which must be performed
before the pardon can have any effect. Bac. Ab. Pardon, E; 2 Caines, R. 57;
1 Bailey, 283; 2 Bailey 516. But see 4 Call, R. 85.
6.-Sec. 2. The constitution of the United States gives to the,
president in general terms, "the power to grant reprieves and pardons for
offences against the United States." The same power is given generally to
the governors of the several states to grant pardons for crimes committed
against their respective states, but in some of them the consent of the
legislature or one of its branches is required.
7.-Sec. 3. Except in the case of impeachment, for which a pardon
cannot be granted, the pardoning power may grant a pardon of all offences
against the government, and for any sentence or judgment. But such a pardon
does not operate to discharge the interest which third persons may have
acquired in the judgment; as, where a penalty was incurred in violation of
the embargo laws, and the custom house officers became entitled to one-half
of the penalty, the pardon did not discharge that. 4 Wash. C.C.R. 64. See 2
Bay, 565; 2 Whart. 440; 7 J. J. Marsh. 131.
8.-Sec. 4. When the pardon is general, either by an act of amnesty,
or by the repeal of a penal law, it is not necessary to plead it, because
the court is bound, ex officio, to take notice of it. And the criminal
cannot even waive such pardon, because by his admittance, no one can give
the court power to punish him, when it judicially appears there is no law to
do it. But when the pardon is special, to avail the criminal it must
judicially appear that it has been accepted, and for this reason it must be
specially pleaded. 7 Pet. R. 150, 162.
9.-Sec. 5. The effect of a pardon is to protect from punishment the
criminal for the offence pardoned, but for no other. 1 Porter, 475. It seems
that the pardon of an assault and battery, which afterwards becomes murder
by the death of the person beaten, would not operate as a pardon of the
murder. 12 Pick. 496. In general, the effect of a full pardon is to restore
the convict to all his rights. But to this there are some exceptions: 1st.
When the criminal has been guilty of perjury, a pardon will not qualify him
to be a witness at any time afterwards. 2d. When one was convicted of an
offence by which he became civilly dead, a pardon did not affect or annul
the second marriage of his wife, nor the sale of his property by persons
appointed to administer on his estate, nor divest his heirs of the interest
acquired in his estate in consequence of his civil death. 10 Johns. R. 232,
483.
10.-Sec. 6. All contracts, made for the buying or procuring a pardon
for a convict, are void. And such contracts will be declared null by a court
of equity, on the ground that they are opposed to public policy. 4 Bouv.
Inst. n. 3857. Vide, generally, Bac. Ab. h.t.; Com. Dig. h.t.; Nels. Ab.
h.t.; Vin. Ab. h.t.; 13 Petersd. Ab. h.t.; Dane's Ab. h.t.; 3 lust. 233
to 240; Hawk. b. 2, c. 37; 1 Chit. Cr. L. 762 to 778; 2 Russ. on Cr. 595
Arch. Cr. Pl. 92; Stark. Cr. Pl. 368, 380.


Look what Ellen White says about Saul, before he was renamed, Paul.

Quote:
As Saul yielded himself fully to the convicting power of the Holy Spirit, he saw the mistakes of his life and recognized the far-reaching claims of the law of God. He who had been a proud Pharisee, confident that he was justified by his good works, now bowed before God with the humility and simplicity of a little child, confessing his own unworthiness and pleading the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour. Saul longed to come into full harmony and communion with the Father and the Son; and in the intensity of his desire for pardon and acceptance he offered up fervent supplications to the throne of grace. {AA 119.2}


Paul was intense in his desire for pardon and acceptance. And what does Ellen White say about David's great sin and repentance?

Quote:
David was pardoned of his transgression because he humbled his heart before God in repentance and contrition of soul, and believed that God’s promise to forgive would be fulfilled. He confessed his sin, repented, and was reconverted. In the rapture of the assurance of forgiveness, he exclaimed, “Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.” The blessing comes because of pardon; pardon comes through faith that the sin, confessed and repented of, is borne by the great Sin-bearer. Thus from Christ cometh all our blessings. His death is an atoning sacrifice for our sins. He is the great Medium through whom we receive the mercy and favor of God. He, then, is indeed the Originator, the Author, as well as the Finisher, of our faith (Manuscript 21, 1891).


Notice that the blessings come through our pardon, our release of our legal guilt, and the release of our legal guilt comes through faith that our sin, confessed and repented of, is now born by Jesus. The legal and the renewal are all tied together. There is no separation. It is impossible to separate them. If we try we end up stopping the flow of blessings that come from our pardon.

Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration, [Re: dedication] #184338
07/03/17 07:05 AM
07/03/17 07:05 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Gary,

You and some others here may not be aware, as you have not been here as long, but it is my understanding that APL does not believe in the substitutionary atonement of Christ. He has a pet theory that he holds to be true at all costs which says "sin" kills--and therefore, Christ could not have died because of God's law, nor for any requirement of God at all, but only on account of "sin" having been placed upon Him (which brings up a huge theological can of worms). To appearances, based on his postings here, this theory that sin kills, which he divorces completely from the "law" because he sees God as good and says God never kills (we have wasted countless posts on the topic without an inch of progress), is the theory that has helped to frame his entire theology. It necessarily affects the legal aspect of salvation, and thus his view will prevent him from being able to see the truth on this subject.

For those of us who can still see the truth, it behooves us to seek for plain and solid steps from the scriptures upon which to found every one of our beliefs, lest we likewise become blinded to the truth on account of an inaccurate pet theory we have developed. Human nature will not quickly give up pride of opinion, even in the face of incontrovertible truth.

Yes, salvation is both a healing and a legal process. Human equivalents will not properly represent the perfect system of Heaven, but even human law is supposedly designed to maintain order and to heal wounds. Consider prison sentences. Some would speak of the "corrections facility," an allusion to the fact that the time spent there was to help the inmate change his or her ways. That is a very poor analogy, at best, but simply shows that one purpose of the law is to heal--that is what it is for. God's government is far more effectual to this end than any conceived by man.

The Bible, in 1 John 1:9, uses a separate legal term before its use of "aphiemi" (pardon): confess. Confession is something often required of a court or jury, both for conviction and for determination of repentance worthy of clemency or pardon (if the confession shows a genuine spirit of remorse). The pardon is not granted without this confession.

Romans 10:9 highlights this confession as integral to salvation.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration, [Re: Green Cochoa] #184339
07/03/17 02:02 PM
07/03/17 02:02 PM
G
Garywk  Offline
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Veteran Member
Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 982
Colville, Wa
Green,

I am aware of apl's obsession with the God doesn't kill theology. I hadn't seen him post about it here, but I have seen him post about it elsewhere.

It seems like just about everyone I have ever seen get into that idea and really believe in it has had it take over their thinking to the exclusion of all other ideas. I've gone to a couple of churches where it became a major disruption in SS classes as no matter what the subject under discussion was it was always hijacked into that idea by one or two people.

The other thing I've noticed is that it is almost always held by those with a great deal of formal education. Not too many self-educated people ever fall into it.

Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration, [Re: dedication] #184340
07/03/17 02:34 PM
07/03/17 02:34 PM
G
Garywk  Offline
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Veteran Member
Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 982
Colville, Wa
I just realized part of what I said above isn't entirely accurate. I once stated here that I would not discuss the God doesn't kill theology and apl and kland got pretty upset with me for saying I had rejected it after a studying it. So I can't say that I have never seen apl talk about it here. I had just forgotten about it until a few seconds ago.

Last edited by Gary K; 07/03/17 02:35 PM.
Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration, [Re: dedication] #184344
07/03/17 06:29 PM
07/03/17 06:29 PM
APL  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: gary
I believe the writings of Ellen White
Even when she says, "God destroys no man?" Or "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown." Or, "I was shown that the time was in the near future that these whom God had warned and reproved and given great light but who would not correct their ways and follow the light, He would remove from them that heavenly protection which had preserved them from Satan’s cruel power. The Lord would surely leave them to themselves to follow the judgment and counsels of their own wisdom." Or, "I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but [rather] in this way: they place themselves beyond His protection."
Originally Posted By: green
Consider prison sentences. Some would speak of the "corrections facility," an allusion to the fact that the time spent there was to help the inmate change his or her ways
Have you ever worked in a prison? "Correctional Facility" is a fluff term which masks what really happens "behind bars".

"confess" - 1 John 1:9 - an acknowledgment of our sin. Not in a legal sense, but a real sense. James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that you may be HEALED. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

By nature we are alienated from God. The Holy Spirit describes our condition in such words as these: "Dead in trespasses and sins;" "the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint;" "no soundness in it." We are held fast in the snare of Satan, "taken captive by him at his will." Ephesians 2:1; Isaiah 1:5-6; 2 Timothy 2:26. GOD DESIRES TO HEAL US, TO SET US FREE. But since this requires an entire transformation, a renewing of our whole nature, we must yield ourselves wholly to Him. {SC 43.2}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Legal AND/OR healing restoration, [Re: APL] #184347
07/03/17 07:21 PM
07/03/17 07:21 PM
G
Garywk  Offline
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Veteran Member
Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 982
Colville, Wa
apl,

I believe Ellen White. I just do not believe you. Your theology is not in harmony with what she says when a person takes everything she says into account. You take certain aspects of it and then ignore or explain away those aspects of what she says that you disagree with by saying, oh, she says that but she doesn't mean that.

You do the same thing with the Bible.

Yesterday you said, yeah there is a legal component to salvation and yet today you are right back to the same old same old. Well, if you had actually believed what you said yesterday you would have understood that what you said demolishes your idea that God's moral law is intrinsic. However, you are right back to the same idea all over again.

Sorry, but unless you actually acknowledge and think about what other people say to you, I am not really interested in discussing this with you. I have studied this out carefully for myself and I see big time problems with your theology. But, you're not interested in looking at the very real weaknesses of your position. What you do is take only a part of what is said to you and then use it to misrepresent the other person's position. You did that to me yesterday, and I am not interested in continuing that type of discussion.

When you will actually think about what is said to you and consider it carefully then I'll talk to you about it. As soon as you misrepresent what I say, the conversation will be over.

If you want to discuss things on those terms, well and good. If not. So long.

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