Way to twist things, as usual, apl. God says, let us reason together. However, we are also asked in the Bible: Can we by searching find out God? The answer is no. Purely human reasoning is useless in finding God. We cannot use it for that purpose. We must rely on revelation to know God's will.

The fact that you want to ignore history says a lot for when we refuse to learn from history we repeat the same mistakes those who went before us made. This has been proven so many times throughout human history that it is not up for debate. It is, in fact, one definition of insanity, for insanity is doing the same things all over again and expecting different results. That you want to do the same things others before you have done with disastrous results, and yet you expect different results, does not bode well for you and those who think like you.

We were given the power of reason, but human reasoning on its own has failed miserably. It is the reason we live in a world ruled by sin. Our reason is only of use when we submit our ability to reason to the revelation of God. In other words, when we submit all of ourselves to God's will rather than our own will.

I have to say, though, after reading as many of your posts as I have, I am not surprised at all by the position you have taken.

IDK who you are classing as "swine" here on the forum, but I was actually on this forum when it first began, before you got here, and I can offer some observations here. I took a break for a few years, and decided to come back to see if there was anything I might be able to do to help the cause, so to speak.

Over the years there has been good and bad on this forum, but for the most part, I think the majority are seekers, like you, or like anyone else here.

It has to be remembered that when different people post, there will be different points of view, and thats not "wrong." Most people here are struggling through something, and there is no reason we cannot make it a nice place online for people to come.

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: (Isaiah 1:18)

"Human reasoning" directed by The Holy Spirit has never failed, and it is important to note that this is not just the privilege of a few who believe a certain way, at the expense of all others who see it differently. There is no reason that people cannot be made to feel more welcome here, or on any other forum. Being/feeling welcomed should not hinge only on our perception of what a particular person may or may not know/believe. Jesus made it a habit to meet people where they were at, and IDK any reason why we cannot do the same here.

So, you see nothing wrong with twisting another person's words out of the context in which they are said? I guess not, after the way you have also twisted my words out of their context.

When God says, Let us reason together, which I quoted by the way, what is He speaking to? What is the context of His invitation? Is He telling us by His invitation that our reasoning is supreme?

And what is the context of human reasoning which landed us into the mess of the sinful world in which we now live? Was it purely human reasoning outside the context of what God had told our first parents, or was it their reasoning submitted to God's revelation of Himself? Which one landed all of their descendants in a world of sin, misery and death?

Does human reasoning guided by the Holy Spirit lead us to deny the Bible as it is written? Or, is it purely human reasoning that leads us to deny scripture and find reasons to not believe it?

This is an internet forum where people should be able to compare & contrast their various and opposing ideas with other interested individuals, without having to worry about being accused of "twisting" and other such things. I actually find many of your posts very interesting, and enjoy learning new things from them, but is there really a need for us to agree on everything, and does it really mean I am "twisting" your words, just because I have a different viewpoint on the conclusions you draw from what you post?

Wanderer,

When you take my words and say they mean the opposite of what I said, then you are twisting my words.

All values, ideas, beliefs, behaviors, etc... are not of equal value. That idea is destroyed by the Bible record and the teachings of Paul, David, Moses, Jesus, Elijah, Peter, James, John, and, in fact, by all the Biblical authors. God has defined a definite set of values, beliefs, behaviors, and ideas.

This idea that all things moral and spiritual are equivalent in value has come to exist in all of the declining great civilizations in the history of the world. It happened in the antedeluvian world, Egypt, Babylon, Greece, and Rome. And now we see it full-blown in the US and other Western nations. It is one of the hallmarks of a declining civilization. And western civilization is definitely in a steep decline, so that idea is very popular today. But, just because it is popular doesn't mean it is true. It is a very destructive belief. It is a serious logical fallacy that requires very little thought to destroy.

All I need give is one example to show my point. Does homosexuality promote the health, welfare, and continuance of a society? We have seen it in full-blown expression in every declining civilization. I'll give one example. In ancient Rome the young men stopped entering the army and began fixing their hair like the women. They wore clothes indistinguishable from women's clothes. They also began wearing make up and perfume. The, what Edward Gibbons called, effeminate, emperors of Rome passed off their duties to people completely unfit to make decisions while they gave themselves over to utter depravity. Their actions were so depraved that even the collapsing civilization of pagan Rome found them heinous.

I would recommend a very good book written by Rene Noorbergen to you. It's titled The Death Cry of an Eagle. In it he points out all the parallels of the decline of the leader western civilization, the US, to those of all the civilizations/empires in the world's history. The biggest factor in all of these collapses of civilizations was due first and foremost to their spiritual decline. Once that happened all other symptoms followed.

This idea that the Holy Spirit leads people to a confusion of ideas and leads people to reject the Bible is so far out of bounds I almost have to laugh. If it wasn't so destructive and sad I would. The Holy Spirit has always been a unifying influence on all those who listen to Him. Read the history of the early Christian church. Everyone believed alike. Everyone followed scripture as it was written. It wasn't until the devil brought unconsecrated people into the church that theological divisions began and people began to be led away from their founding faith. It matters what we believe, and it matters greatly. The wilderness was littered with the carcasses of those who didn't believe God and remained outside of what Moses taught them. How do I know this? Because both Paul and Moses tell us it is true.

The Holy Spirit does not lead us to think that not all scripture is given by inspiration of God and is not profitable for doctrine, reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. It teaches us exactly the opposite. There is only one set of truths, and those are not up for dispute by those who follow God.

All roads do not lead to God or to heaven. Only one road does, and that road is defined in scripture. Anything other than that is a deception. This is not "my" conclusion. This is what the Bible teaches. You want to disagree with that? You're welcome to, but don't expect people to buy into ideas that both the Bible and history show us are false.

Gary; if one looks in the Bible, even at a cursory glance, it can be seen how God works unity through diversity. Its pretty plain throughout the Bible. Even the disciples did not at one point believe in the resurrection. I am just saying we need to go a little lighter on people when they are not on the same level as we think we are.

Honest searchers for truth do not intentionally misrepresent the words of others. If they misunderstand what someone says and reply from that misunderstanding when told they didn't respond to what was actually said they apologize. Honest behavior is easy to identify. So is dishonest behavior.

I have no problem with someone who disagrees with me. That is what makes the world go round. I also have no problem with a learner. I am one myself. My ignorance is vast, and the more I learn the more I realize how much I do not know. I would be the happiest person around if I could come online and just participate in honest discussion, in a mutual search for truth. If, before a discussion started people would agree on the parameters of how to conduct the inquiry, come to a mutual agreement on definitions of concepts, etc... that would be close to heaven on earth for me. It would tell me that everyone wanted to learn and that the only goal of any of the participants would have is coming to know to truth. A prayerful study in this manner would bring people together, not push them apart, but I have never seen a group online willing to do such a thing. Why?

I do have, however, a real problem with dishonesty. It creates an atmosphere in which learning is next to impossible for the dishonest person throws out all kinds of snares, logical fallacies, and even things they themselves do not really believe just to confuse the issues. The Pharisees did this with Jesus on a regular basis, and they did it purposefully. To them it was a sign of how smart, educated, and logical they were that they could find traps for Him. It is how they went about arguing among themselves i.e. Pharisee vs Sadducee, or in their own words, Beth Hillel vs Beth Shammai.

Jesus didn't react to them by saying all ideas needed to be taught and that their views were just one of many. He told them they were flat out wrong. He pointed out how much they twisted scripture. And twist scripture they did. They had almost unlimited "interpretations" of scripture. F.C. Gilbert points out that there were "legally" up to 32 "interpretations" of every verse including what was called a "secret" interpretation, meaning it could be anything they wanted it to be. It was complete and utter confusion. It was truly Babel put into practice. It's no wonder the common man looked at Jesus with such astonishment for He taught as one who understood the issues, not as the scribes and Pharisees.

When I come online I see the same thing Jesus was confronted with. There is only one truth, but it is almost always an utter confusion of ideas with very few people who actually want to learn. If they were online to learn, there would actually be serious, prayerful study guided by parameters that were mutually agreed upon by all participants. And there would not be the intentional twisting of other people's words and ideas just to argue.

What a place heaven will be. Unlimited resources, and time, to study anything and everything we want to learn. I think about this often and yearn for the day it becomes reality. Oh, to be able to bounce ideas off of others and know that only honest replies will come back in response. That is heaven to me.

Obviously, the disciples were wrong and Jesus was not happy about it. So much for such "diversity." There can be no benefit to the diversity of truth mingled with error. Such diversity must be decried and eschewed.



Gary, well said--your whole post. Thank you for speaking so eloquently to the issue at hand.

Yes, truth matters.
Yes, there is only ONE TRUTH.
Yes, Jesus, as the Son of God taught pure truth, unmixed with error.

However, the history of Christianity is terribly marred by people who THINK they have that one truth and went about banning, punishing, exiling, or killing those who believed differently.