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#185599 - 11/21/17 07:28 PM Re: A Woman Now Rides the Beast [Re: ProdigalOne]
Mark Shipowick Online   content
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Originally Posted By: ProdigalOne

Hopefully, this is on topic. I have heard both of these views expounded, what are your opinions? Is Armageddon a physical, or a spiritual battle? Does apostate Protestantism engage in physical war with the Lamb via faithful Christian surrogates, or will it be a battle of biblical doctrine and pseudo-biblical doctrine vying for the soul of humanity? Perhaps, Armageddon is a combination of both?


Personally I think it's both Prodigal. It doesn't affect our salvation if we don't correctly identify the physical aspect but it does make an eternal difference if we do not recognize the spiritual dimension.
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#185604 - 11/22/17 04:14 AM Re: A Woman Now Rides the Beast [Re: dedication]
Alchemy Online   content
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Originally Posted By: dedication
The beast of Revelation 17

Three parts:

1. The scarlet colored beast full of names of blasphemy, which is, is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go into perdition. And the people will "wonder" (be amazed by) this beast when he ascends. He is the "eighth" or sum total of all the heads.

2. The seven heads on the beast which are seven mountains/seven kings. The woman sits on these.

3. Ten horns which are seven kings that receive their kingdom for one hour with the beast. They give their power to the beast but hate the woman.


Then there is also the woman -- Babylon -- a great city.
Reigning over the kings of the earth.
Fornicates with the kings of the earth.
Makes them drunk with the wine of her fornication
Sells merchandize to them and is very rich
In her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.



It's the last sentence that suggest a huge time frame.
The language suggest that the woman and the beast on which she sits as queen are world embracing symbols that cover the history of the reign of sin. Babylon is held responsible for the persecution and martyrdom of prophets, saints and all that were slain upon the earth.
This takes us back all the way to the time of Nimrod who created the beginning of Babylon with his wife. Babylon traces it's history as the counterfeit of the true plan of salvation all through history.







On number 3; What makes you think the ten horns represent 7 kings? I'm sure you noticed the difference in the numbers.
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#185606 - 11/22/17 04:52 PM Re: A Woman Now Rides the Beast [Re: dedication]
kland Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
One question that has puzzled me.

The beast of Revelation 17 comes up out of the bottomless pit.

None of the beastly critters of Rev. 12-13 come up from the bottomless pit. The Leopard like beast arises from the sea.
The two horned beast arises out of the earth.

However, if you go back to Revelation 11, you will find another beast coming up out of the bottomless pit.



Rev. 11:7 And when they (the two witnesses) shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Who is this beast, and is it connected with the Rev. 17 beast?
The beast of Rev 13 has seven heads and ten horns.
The scarlet beast of Rev 17 has seven heads and ten horns.
The red dragon of Rev 12 has seven heads and ten horns.

Either the beast of Rev 17 is another beast or it is one of the previous ones.

It has seven heads and ten horns like the others.
It is called a beast like Rev 13.
It is red like Rev 12.

It also ascends out of the bottomless pit.
The bottomless pit is mentioned as you said in Rev 11. It is also mentioned in Rev 12 and Rev 20.

The dragon of Rev 12 is not the beast of 12 mentioned later.
Is not a dragon a beast?
Can it not fit the text if satan is considered the beast of Rev 11, 12, 17, 20?
The woman is seated upon it.
The beast also carries her along.
I think an important question to consider, does the woman control the beast or the beast controls the woman. Does the text require one over the other?

If the beast is the papacy in Rev 17, it cannot be the "church", can it? And do the kings give their kingdom, at the last to the 8th beast, the papacy or to satan posing as Christ?

Re 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
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#185609 - 11/23/17 01:02 AM Re: A Woman Now Rides the Beast [Re: Mark Shipowick]
dedication Offline

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Actually, "bottomless pit" or "abyssos" is mentioned SEVEN times in Revelation.


Revelation:
9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
9:11 And they had a king over them, [which is] the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue [is] Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath [his] name Apollyon.

11:3 my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up,




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#185610 - 11/23/17 01:24 AM Re: A Woman Now Rides the Beast [Re: Mark Shipowick]
dedication Offline

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Kland wrote: Can it not fit the text if satan is considered the beast of Rev 11, 12, 17, 20?

++

Satan is the dragon as stated in Rev. 12:9

"the dragon gave power unto the beast" Rev. 13:4

The two horned beast receives the same power and speaks like the dragon.

Thus, I don't think these beasts are satan, but they represent human powers which are empowered by Satan, and fulfill his agenda.
They are "in his image"

Interesting contrast --

God seeks to restore us into HIS image
while
the opposition takes on the image of the dragon.
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#185613 - 11/23/17 01:38 PM Re: A Woman Now Rides the Beast [Re: dedication]
Mark Shipowick Online   content
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Originally Posted By: dedication
Actually, "bottomless pit" or "abyssos" is mentioned SEVEN times in Revelation.


Revelation:
9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
9:11 And they had a king over them, [which is] the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue [is] Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath [his] name Apollyon.

11:3 my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up,


The thing I've noticed Dedication about these references is they all are linked to the deceptive power of Satan whether directly though himself or indirectly through human agents. In my view the last reference in chapter 20 lends further support to the idea that Satan at the end comes up from the abyss and is permitted to personally transform himself into an angel of light in his final desperate attempt to deceive even the very elect. But he fails and shortly after that he is thrown back into the bottomless pit for a thousand years and chained there so that he has no more power to deceive the nations until he is released for a brief period at the second resurrection. This final deception of the wicked seems to be the final proof that the wicked at this point are like Satan - confirmed rebels. Even though God gives them life and Satan power to once again influence the lost part of humanity they still rally under Satan's banner and attempt to take heaven by force.

This final chapter in the great controversy speaks to the irrationality, the hatred and self-destructiveness of sin - that created beings would attempt to kill their only source of life, their loving Creator, - and to the infinite love of God the Father, of Christ and of the Holy Spirit, our great God.
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#185614 - 11/24/17 09:21 AM Re: A Woman Now Rides the Beast [Re: dedication]
kland Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
Kland wrote: Can it not fit the text if satan is considered the beast of Rev 11, 12, 17, 20?

++

Satan is the dragon as stated in Rev. 12:9

"the dragon gave power unto the beast" Rev. 13:4

The two horned beast receives the same power and speaks like the dragon.

Thus, I don't think these beasts are satan, but they represent human powers which are empowered by Satan, and fulfill his agenda.
They are "in his image"

Interesting contrast --

God seeks to restore us into HIS image
while
the opposition takes on the image of the dragon.

I'm sorry, I don't mean satan to be ALL beasts, but the beast that was under discussion.

More specifically,

Re 17:8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.


And the other verses you just listed above.
Also, not excluding,
Re 12:3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads.
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#185686 - 12/09/17 10:16 PM Re: A Woman Now Rides the Beast [Re: Mark Shipowick]
dedication Offline

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Originally Posted By: Kland
Can it not fit the text if satan is considered the beast of Rev 11, 12, 17, 20?


Rev. 20 is directly speaking of satan being bound in the bottomless pit for 1000 years.

We know Rev. 12 is the dragon who is satan. His heads, human powers through whom satan worked to harass God's people were Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome and Papal Rome, plus two.
Pagan Rome was in power when the Christ child was born and crucified, Christ was taken to heaven.
Then the dragon, through papal Rome persecuted the pure woman (the wilderness church) for 1260 years. Which head will he use to persecute the "remnant of her seed" in the last days?


Now the question is -- who are those two other heads on the dragon. Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, Papal Rome, plus two.

What I find interesting is that two beasts appear around the time papal Rome looses political power.


The beast from the earth in Rev. 13. (usually recognized as the USA)

The beast from the bottomless pit in Rev. 11 (arose during the French revolution according to GC)
Near the end of the 1,260 years when the “two witnesses”, (the Bible OT and NT), “have finished” prophesying, all that time they were “clothed in sackcloth”, the beast comes out of the “bottomless pit” to “make war against them,” “and kill them.”
The excesses and corruption of the Papal Church System and the church-supported aristocracy had become so corrupt that their firmest supporter, France, became their worst enemy. France, which had already driven out Protestantism under the direction of the Papal church, now not only rejected Catholicism, but God Himself; they cast out God's law, as well as all morals, and everything Christian; bibles were burned, and they set up a new religion glorifying man, reason, and intellect.

After a few years of absolute anarchy, things settled down, and Christianity, having been freed from papal and aristocratic control, actually soared to new heights! Bible Societies, Revivals, Missionary activities flourished!

But where are we now? The beast from the bottomless pit is back.

But prophecy in Rev. 17 presents an interesting picture --
The religious powers (woman) is riding on this beast from the bottomless pit.
Why would she be riding him, since he nearly destroyed her back in 1798?
Yet, what happens -- the beast with it's ten horns destroy her again!

This "beast" from the bottomless pit, is satanic, --
-- the secret societies ---

Quote:
"A power from beneath is working to bring about the last great scenes in the drama,--Satan coming as Christ, and working with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in those who are binding themselves together in secret societies. Testimonies, vol. 8, pp. 27, 28. {

"Those who choose to unite with these secret societies are paying homage to idol... Behind their apparent advantages are concealed satanic agencies....They are Satan's traps, his net to entangle souls. {2SM 131.3}

" As we near the close of time, there will be greater and still greater external parade of heathen power; heathen deities will manifest their signal power...All need wisdom carefully to search out the mystery of iniquity that figures so largely in the winding up of this earth's history. God's presentation of the detestable works of the inhabitants of the ruling powers of the world who bind themselves into secret societies and confederacies, not honoring the law of God,
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#185688 - 12/10/17 12:41 AM Re: A Woman Now Rides the Beast [Re: Mark Shipowick]
His child Offline
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Posts: 1138
Loc: TN, USA
Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
One more thought. Ellen White is clear that the 10 horns or kings who give their power to the beast, the eighth head, are the Protestant denominations. So horns and kings can also represent churches. If that is the case with the ten horns, then the same can be applied to the heads since they also could be political and religious. If we were to add up the membership of the ten leading Protestant denominations in America we'd have an idea of the power base of the eighth head.


Please excuse my curiosity. This is the first time I have checked out this site in ages. Mark Shipowick please give a resource for this comment:

"One more thought. Ellen White is clear that the 10 horns or kings who give their power to the beast, the eighth head, are the Protestant denominations."

Thank you


Edited by His child (12/10/17 12:45 AM)
_________________________
"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3).
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#185706 - 12/15/17 05:37 AM Re: A Woman Now Rides the Beast [Re: Mark Shipowick]
ProdigalOne Online   content
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I’m not certain what Mark’s exact source is, but here is a quote from
Maranatha, page-187:


Protestantism Unites with the Papacy, June 28

"And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. Revelation 17:12, 13. Mar 187.1
As we approach the last crisis, it is of vital moment that harmony and unity exist among the Lord's instrumentalities. The world is filled with storm and war and variance. Yet under one head—the papal power—the people will unite to oppose God in the person of His witnesses. Mar 187.2
What is it that gives its kingdom to this power? Protestantism, a power which, while professing to have the temper and spirit of a lamb and to be allied to Heaven, speaks with the voice of a dragon. It is moved by a power from beneath." Mar 187.3
_________________________
"...I will not forget you.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of [my] hands..."

Isaiah 49:15-16
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