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#185776 - 12/27/17 11:05 PM Re: A Woman Now Rides the Beast [Re: kland]
His child Offline
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Loc: TN, USA
Originally Posted By: kland
I'm didn't follow where Mark mentioned anything about 8 heads.

Thank you
I read him wrong.
This is his comment:

"One more thought. Ellen White is clear that the 10 horns or kings who give their power to the beast, the eighth head, are the Protestant denominations."

So my question should have been where does EGW say that the 10 horns are the protestant denominations?

Thanks
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#185789 - 12/30/17 05:24 AM Re: A Woman Now Rides the Beast [Re: His child]
His child Offline
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Quote:
“Babylon the great”…another symbol of the beast. (SSII 72.1 )


Quote:
“the mother of harlots.” By her daughters must be symbolized churches that cling to her doctrines and traditions, and follow her example of sacrificing the truth and the approval of God, in order to form an unlawful alliance with the world… The people of God are called upon to come out of Babylon. According to this scripture, many of God’s people must still be in Babylon. And in what religious bodies are the greater part of the followers of Christ now to be found? Without doubt, in the various churches professing the Protestant faith. (GC 382.3)


Quote:
The mother was not the daughters, but separate and distinct from them. She has had her day, and it is past, and her daughters, the Protestant sects, were the next to come on the stage and act out the same mind that the mother had when she persecuted the saints… As the mother has been declining in power, the daughters had been growing, and soon they will exercise the power once exercised by the mother. (SpM 1.4)


The beast in revelation 17 is the Babylon the great/papacy. The woman riding the papacy depicts the Protestants denominations.

When Revelation 17 meets its complete fulfillment, the Protestant churches (the woman on the beast) will accept the Mark of the beast. This is evident by the name on the woman's forehead.

Quote:
Re 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.


Quote:
Re 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,


Quote:
The papal beast’s name is Babylon; its authority/ office is Mother of Harlots and Abominations; and its jurisdiction is the earth, which it received from Satan. An official seal has these three distinct characteristics: Name, office, and territory or jurisdiction. The woman on the papal beast has the beast’s seal on her forehead (cf Revelation 17:5).




Edited by His child (12/30/17 05:26 AM)
_________________________
"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3).
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#185790 - 12/30/17 03:02 PM Re: A Woman Now Rides the Beast [Re: His child]
Elle Offline
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You haven't provided any scripture support below that points to protestantism as being the harlot that rides the first best of the sea.

Where's your text... Where's thus says the Lord... where's your prophesies and patterns in the OT that show that protestantism is the last ruling BEAST Empire?

I see none. However I have already shown the patterns of two incident that the Edomites played the role of the red dragon in scriptures. And I can show another 7 or less prophecies with historical fulfillment that show a return of Edom that would challenge your theory that protestantism is the last ruling empire. Plus I can show with scriptures the role Protestantism plays in the end time....and it is NOT the whore.

Ellen and the pioneers did an interpretation error. Thats all. We all do that. They never claimed infallibility.

Let's just recognize this possibility and be a people that seek the Lord's interpretation as He made it known to us. In Ellen's time, the Lord haven't revealed this yet. Like many other truths it remained hidden from the church because it was not yet time to know about it.

Originally Posted By: His child
Quote:
“Babylon the great”…another symbol of the beast. (SSII 72.1 )


Quote:
“the mother of harlots.” By her daughters must be symbolized churches that cling to her doctrines and traditions, and follow her example of sacrificing the truth and the approval of God, in order to form an unlawful alliance with the world… The people of God are called upon to come out of Babylon. According to this scripture, many of God’s people must still be in Babylon. And in what religious bodies are the greater part of the followers of Christ now to be found? Without doubt, in the various churches professing the Protestant faith. (GC 382.3)


Quote:
The mother was not the daughters, but separate and distinct from them. She has had her day, and it is past, and her daughters, the Protestant sects, were the next to come on the stage and act out the same mind that the mother had when she persecuted the saints… As the mother has been declining in power, the daughters had been growing, and soon they will exercise the power once exercised by the mother. (SpM 1.4)


The beast in revelation 17 is the Babylon the great/papacy. The woman riding the papacy depicts the Protestants denominations.

When Revelation 17 meets its complete fulfillment, the Protestant churches (the woman on the beast) will accept the Mark of the beast. This is evident by the name on the woman's forehead.

Quote:
Re 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.


Quote:
Re 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,


Quote:
The papal beast’s name is Babylon; its authority/ office is Mother of Harlots and Abominations; and its jurisdiction is the earth, which it received from Satan. An official seal has these three distinct characteristics: Name, office, and territory or jurisdiction. The woman on the papal beast has the beast’s seal on her forehead (cf Revelation 17:5).


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#185796 - 01/01/18 01:56 PM Re: A Woman Now Rides the Beast [Re: Mark Shipowick]
His child Offline
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Elle that was a great observation. I spent an hour answering it and hit a wrong key that deleted it all. I couldn't find an undo key to retrieve it until I left the page. Too Late. Too Late.

I'll come back to this post with a thus saith the LORD in another session.
_________________________
"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3).
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#185799 - 01/01/18 04:11 PM Re: A Woman Now Rides the Beast [Re: His child]
Elle Offline
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Registered: 12/13/08
Posts: 2324
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: His child
Elle that was a great observation. I spent an hour answering it and hit a wrong key that deleted it all. I couldn't find an undo key to retrieve it until I left the page. Too Late. Too Late.

I'll come back to this post with a thus saith the LORD in another session.

Sorry to hear that you lost your post. I will appreciate your time to re-write it again. Take the time needed. There's no rush.
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#185809 - 01/03/18 06:54 PM Re: A Woman Now Rides the Beast [Re: Mark Shipowick]
kland Offline
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Originally Posted By: Elle
First thing to note John saw" a great sign appear in heaven" v.1
This is the constellation of Virgo that every year it appears from Aug 23 to Sept 22. But it is rarely passing by in conjunction of the moon under her feet.
.........
Uh... Count me out of that conversation!
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#185828 - 01/07/18 01:53 PM Re: A Woman Now Rides the Beast [Re: kland]
Elle Offline
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Registered: 12/13/08
Posts: 2324
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Elle
First thing to note John saw" a great sign appear in heaven" v.1
This is the constellation of Virgo that every year it appears from Aug 23 to Sept 22. But it is rarely passing by in conjunction of the moon under her feet.
.........
Uh... Count me out of that conversation!

No problem kland....not that I went away from SDAs interpretation of Rev 12. At least not the first 2 verses.

Originally Posted By: kland
Elle, this is where:
Quote:
In Rev 17 theirs a whore that rides the first BEAST of the sea.
Not the first beast. (well, depending upon which you call the first)

a)The first beast of Rev 13:1 is said having 7 heads and 10 horns. It is the same said in Rev 17:3,7 and in Rev 12:3. In Dn 7:7,20,24 describe it having 10 horns with no mention of the 7 heads.

However Dan 7:25 describes the little horn (that we know is the RCC and is the first beast of Rev 13) as :

b)"speaks out against the Most High". This description is repeated in Dan 7:8,11,20,25; Rev 13:1,6; Rev 17:3.

c)"wear down the Saints". This repeated in Dan 7:25,27; Rev 13:7; Rev 18:24;

d)"they (the Saints) will be given into his (the little horn) hands for a time, times, and half a time". This repeated in Rev 11:2; Rev 12:6,14; Rev 13:5,7;

Do we agree kland that the little horn of Dan 7 is the same as the first beast of Rev 13?

Originally Posted By: kland
It's described the same as the one in Rev 12.
Re 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Re 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

I agree Rev 12:3; Rev 17:3; and would add Rev 13:1 and Dan 7 are all the same BEAST which is the RCC that God gave dominion over the earth for 1260 years. Her allocated time to rule ended around 1796 when it got its fatal wound by Napoleon. But Rev 13:11-18 talks about another BEAST from the earth that rose up after. That's the whore of Rev 17 that rides the first beast of Rev 13.

Originally Posted By: kland
That's where I'm saying you're grouping them together.

Well its all the same BEAST (the little horn of Dan 7; the red dragon of Rev 12:3-17; the first Beast from the sea of Rev 13, and the scarlet colored beast of Rev 17:3,7) according to all the similar description given in all these chapters. Just because God gave them different names; it doesnt mean they are different beasts.

God did the same thing describing the four beasts kingdom that were given dominion before Jesus first coming. He first name them as metals, and then as four beasts.

Then in Daniel 8 He gave more details of the two coming kingdom after Babylon. The ram with two horns is the Medes and Persia (Dan 8:20) and the shaggy goat is Greece (Dan 8:21).

Then he describes the extension of the fourth kingdom as a little horn.

In all these chapters; it is their description that links them as the same and their diverse symbolic names further reveals their identity.

Originally Posted By: kland
I did use, incorrectly, "All", but that wasn't my first comment. It was, There are more than one beast and a beast of beasts.

I agree there's more than one beast, two beasts to be specific, that was given dominion after Christ death according to Rev 13. These are two extension of the fourth kingdom by which Daniel only saw one of them. John was revealed an additional one. Rev 17-20 describes the judgment of these two beasts.

What do you mean with " a BEAST of beasts"?

How many beasts do you see ruling after Christ death describe in the book of Revelation?
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#185838 - 01/13/18 02:09 PM Re: A Woman Now Rides the Beast [Re: Elle]
Mark Shipowick Offline
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Elle, Edom does figure into end time prophecy more than most Adventists realize. I've been studying it for a while and I think Edom, one of the most unrelenting enemies of God's people in the past, the descendants of Esau the brother of Jacob, stands for those who have a good knowledge of sacred things, Jews and Christians especially, but who at the end persecute God's people. However, the prophecy in Daniel 11:41 says many in Edom, Moab and Amon will escape the final deception of the beast. That text could also have a secondary, literal meaning that the country of Jordan which occupies the territory where Edom, Moab and Amon used to be will not come under the control of the beast.
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#185839 - 01/14/18 08:17 PM Re: A Woman Now Rides the Beast [Re: Mark Shipowick]
Elle Offline
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Registered: 12/13/08
Posts: 2324
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Elle, Edom does figure into end time prophecy more than most Adventists realize.

I agree.

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
I've been studying it for a while and I think Edom, one of the most unrelenting enemies of God's people in the past,

I am not surprised that you're looking into these prophecies. Yes I agree with the above.

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
the descendants of Esau the brother of Jacob, stands for those who have a good knowledge of sacred things, (like) Jews and Christians especially, but who(the Edomites) at the end persecute God's people.

I added the bolded sections to make sure I am understanding your statement correctly. If this is what you meant...yes I agree.

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
However, the prophecy in Daniel 11:41 says many in Edom, Moab and Amon will escape the final deception of the beast. That text could also have a secondary, literal meaning that the country of Jordan which occupies the territory where Edom, Moab and Amon used to be will not come under the control of the beast.

Here is where we differ. I see Daniel 11 as further details of the rise and the end of the third BEAST Empire of Greece. I don't see it as part of the end time nor referring to the last BEAST of Rev 13 that we are in right now. Basically when Alexander the great died he divided the kingdom to his 4 generals by which rivals between themselves. Ptolemy received Egypt (King of the south), and Seleucid received Syria (King of the north). Palestine was caught in the middle and became the battleground of these two empires, sometimes being controlled by Syria, and at other times by Egypt.

Dan 11:40-45 is the angelic summary of the events of Antiochus Epiphanies who was a Syrian king. Epiphany means "God manifest". This shows how Antiochus viewed himself. When he went to conquer Egypt he plunder Jerusalem on his way back and desecrated the temple and turn it into a temple for Jupiter. But the angel concludes in v. 45 that these plans of Antiochus would not be permanent, for he would “come to his end, and no one will help him.” After Antioch died in 163 BC, the Judeans defeated the Syrians, then cleanse the temple and set up their independent government ruled by their Hasmonians King-Priests.

Coming back to v. 41, I do not know from whose hands Edom was rescued from a historical account: " 41 He will also enter the Beautiful Land, and many countries will fall; but these will be rescued out of his hand: Edom, Moab and the foremost of the sons of Ammon." Probably it simply means from the hands of Antioch. So what I gathered from that text is that Antioch probably tried but did not succeed to conquer those territories when he plunder Jerusalem.

However what is important for us to note is what happenned to the nation of Edom after Antioch died in 163 BC when the Judeans conquered the Syrians. While the Judean overthrew the Greek Empire and got their independence.... They also conquered Edom in 126BC in the Maccabee war. Edom always desired the land of Palestine (Ezek 35). They always thought that it belonged to them for Esau was the firstborn and Jacob deceitfully stole it from him. So when the Judean conquered Edom and offered to convert to Judean or die....they naturally accepted to convert.

Here is what a first-century Jewish historian named Josephus said about this in his "Antiquities of the Jews", XIII, ix, 1. BTW Idumea is the Greek word for Edom.

Quote:
"Hyrcanus took also Dora and Marissa, cities of Idumea, and subdued all the Idumeans ; and permitted them to stay in that country, if they would be circumcised, and make use of the laws of the Jews; and they were so desirous of living in the country of their forefathers, that they submitted to the use of circumcision and the rest of the Jews' ways of living; at which time therefore, this befell them, that they were hereafter no other than Jews."


Meaning the nation of Edom and the nation of Judea became one. So the prophecies of Judea and Edom becomes intertwine from that point in time.

There's lots more to be said regarding the return of Edom-Essau at the end time but it would require to look at all those prophecies by which their is many. All of these will be fulfilled because it was spoken by the Lord. And sadly we SDA have not these prophecies in our end time interpretation. I'm glad that your looking into these Mark.
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#185848 - Today at 06:47 PM Re: A Woman Now Rides the Beast [Re: Mark Shipowick]
kland Offline
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Registered: 10/28/08
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Loc: Midland
Originally Posted By: Elle
a)The first beast of Rev 13:1 is said having 7 heads and 10 horns. It is the same said in Rev 17:3,7 and in Rev 12:3. In Dn 7:7,20,24 describe it having 10 horns with no mention of the 7 heads.
No. And no.
As said before.
Quote:
Do we agree kland that the little horn of Dan 7 is the same as the first beast of Rev 13?
I would agree that the first beast of Rev 13 includes the little horn of Dan 7. The first beast of Rev 13 has 7 heads and the little horn is only one of the heads.

Quote:
I agree Rev 12:3; Rev 17:3; and would add Rev 13:1 and Dan 7 are all the same BEAST which is the RCC that God gave dominion over the earth for 1260 years.
Did the "RCC" tail draw the third part of the stars of heaven? Did Michael and his angels fight against the "RCC" and cast it out of heaven? Is the "RCC", the great dragon called that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan? Did the "RCC" come up out of the abyss?

No.
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