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#185382 - 11/02/17 10:32 PM A Woman Now Rides the Beast
Mark Shipowick Offline
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Here’s a thought that I’m mulling over, comparing with scripture: Revelation 17 has timing elements to help us identify when and how Babylon comes to power and begins her ride of the Beast:

Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

At the moment there are four main Protestant churches that have jointly signed onto the 1999 accord with the Vatican: Lutherans, Methodists, Reformed (that is Calvinist/Presbyterian) and as of the day before yesterday Anglicans. Since the heads are both mountains and kings, mountains being churches and kings being political entities, we’re not far away from the complete healing of the mortal wound of Rev 13:3 “And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.” Specifically what I'm wondering is if now that there are five churches in the 1999 accord if this is when the woman's ride officially begins - "five of them are fallen"?

The Vatican and the Lutheran Church issued a joint statement on the 500th Anniversary of the Reformation two days ago. Paragraph 6 of the statement contains the listing above. Here's a link to the official Vatican site: http://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/en/bollettino/pubblico/2017/10/31/171031a.html

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#185383 - 11/03/17 02:51 PM Re: A Woman Now Rides the Beast [Re: Mark Shipowick]
kland Offline
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"five of them are fallen"

What is "fallen"?

In the past, it's been considered in regards to powers as in: dead, no longer active, cease to exist as significant.

What you are suggesting is fallen as being spiritually dead, past probation, joined with the beast. But have the other churches ever really been "alive"?

Not sure you can fit that idea into the context. "and when he cometh" does not convey "and when he falleth". The others have come and gone. One is about to come. I don't see that as a prediction as one is about to fall. And the one that "is", would that mean halfway to being spiritually dead?

Sorry, while an interesting idea, I don't see it fits. While what is happening with the churches may be considered predicted elsewhere, it doesn't seem to fit within 17:9-11. Especially if one were to consider Rev 13 as a "transparency" over 17. Wounded to death as being spiritually fallen and then being "healed" - as in, not spiritually dead?
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#185384 - 11/03/17 08:51 PM Re: A Woman Now Rides the Beast [Re: Mark Shipowick]
Mark Shipowick Offline
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Kland I agree it does look more like the "five have fallen" applies to political entities rather than churches. If mountains applies to churches though we are still close - five of the seven mountains have signed on.

I had to re-align my former view of the seven being successive empires or popes etc because the picture is of the woman being empowered and riding on living or current politico-religious powers. So what I'm looking for is an initial political coalition of five powers who at about this time that the woman takes the reigns of the beast these five make an alliance with a sixth and then a seventh. Soon after the number reaches seven on the political side the woman is unseated by the beast and a coalition of 10 kings. Ellen White says the 10 kings are Protestantism.


Edited by Mark Shipowick (11/03/17 08:59 PM)
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#185392 - 11/06/17 06:17 AM Re: A Woman Now Rides the Beast [Re: Mark Shipowick]
The Wanderer Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Here’s a thought that I’m mulling over, comparing with scripture: Revelation 17 has timing elements to help us identify when and how Babylon comes to power and begins her ride of the Beast:

Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
The seven heads are explained to be first, seven mountains, and then seven kings. The expression in verse 10, "and there are seven kings," reads in the original, "and are seven kings." This makes the sentence read: "The seven heads are seven mountains . . . and are seven kings," thus identifying heads, mountains, and kings.

The angel says further, "five [kings] are fallen," or passed away. Again he says, "one [king] is"--the sixth was then reigning. "The other is not yet come; and when he cometh he must continue a short space."

Last of all, "the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven."

From this account of the seven kings, we understand that when the one that had "not yet come" at the time of which John was writing, appears on the scene, he is here called an eighth, though he is really "of the seven," in the sense that he absorbed and exercised their power.

It is this one whose career we are interested to follow. Of this one it is said that his destiny was to go "into perdition," that is, to perish utterly. This repeats the affirmation made in verse 8 concerning "the beast that thou sawest," which in turn is the "scarlet colored beast," on which the woman sat.
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#185398 - 11/06/17 04:33 PM Re: A Woman Now Rides the Beast [Re: Mark Shipowick]
kland Offline
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I believe you said it well.
And who is the "scarlet colored beast"?
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#185399 - 11/06/17 04:36 PM Re: A Woman Now Rides the Beast [Re: Mark Shipowick]
kland Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
So what I'm looking for is an initial political coalition of five powers who at about this time that the woman takes the reigns of the beast these five make an alliance with a sixth and then a seventh. Soon after the number reaches seven on the political side the woman is unseated by the beast and a coalition of 10 kings. Ellen White says the 10 kings are Protestantism.
Now if the woman had seven heads, you might be onto something. But it's the beast with seven heads.

So if the woman had seven heads, and if you agree that what you are suggesting would fit in with that, what do you do when it's not the woman but the beast with the seven heads?
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#185540 - 11/17/17 09:19 PM Re: A Woman Now Rides the Beast [Re: kland]
Mark Shipowick Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
what do you do when it's not the woman but the beast with the seven heads?


The first beast of Rev. 13 and the only beast of 17 are the same imo - the mortally wounded and now soon to be ressurected Holy Roman Empire of Europe. The Holy Roman Empire was created on 25 December 800, when Pope Leo III crowned the Frankish king Charlemagne as Emperor, reviving the title in Western Europe, more than three centuries after the fall of the Western Roman Empire. It stood for more than a thousand years, the legacy of the seven rooted horns of the ten horned beast of Daniel 7 until it was dissolved in 1806.

That beast was always under the control more or less of the woman and it will be again in the near future in Europe. So I expect that the woman will again mount the beast when five horns or kingdoms form a league with one another and also with her along the similar lines to the history of Charlemagne and Leo III. We'll have to wait and see if the secondary meaning of the horns as mountains applies to the fallen churches but scripture and history both make a link between mountains as places of true and false worship. The principle throughout prophecy is that when we get to the end times, to the feet of the image made of iron and clay, the final beasts, the harlot, the message is consistent - an impure relationship of church and state that tramples on the sanctity of the individual conscience. Since this is key to the final conflict - the combining of religion and politics - it seems reasonable that the major players in the final drama, political and religious, will both be identified.
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#185541 - 11/17/17 09:25 PM Re: A Woman Now Rides the Beast [Re: Mark Shipowick]
Mark Shipowick Offline
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Regarding the second beast of Revelation 13, the image is created by American Protestantism and although at first it is in sympathy with Rome it eventually unseats the woman even while it makes an image of her and the first beast in terms of co-mingling church and state.
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#185542 - 11/17/17 09:48 PM Re: A Woman Now Rides the Beast [Re: Mark Shipowick]
Mark Shipowick Offline
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I should add, the first beast of Rev 13 as the Holy Roman Empire is not the full picture because the 1260 year reign of the woman as given in Rev 12 and 13 covers the entire period of her political power to persecute. So the beast does cover a longer period than the Holy Roman Empire but it is an important part of sacred history and if we see this beast in this light it clarifies what has caused some confusion for us and the reformers - the fact that beasts are political entities and women represent true and false churches. In other words, the first
and second beasts of Revelation 13 primarily represent the political side of a political and religious alliance.
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#185544 - 11/17/17 10:05 PM Re: A Woman Now Rides the Beast [Re: Mark Shipowick]
Mark Shipowick Offline
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One more thought. Ellen White is clear that the 10 horns or kings who give their power to the beast, the eighth head, are the Protestant denominations. So horns and kings can also represent churches. If that is the case with the ten horns, then the same can be applied to the heads since they also could be political and religious. If we were to add up the membership of the ten leading Protestant denominations in America we'd have an idea of the power base of the eighth head.
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