|
Forums118
Topics9,199
Posts195,609
Members1,323
| |
Most Online5,850
Feb 29th, 2020
|
|
|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
|
|
|
1
|
2
|
3
|
4
|
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
10
|
11
|
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
17
|
18
|
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
24
|
25
|
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
31
|
|
|
|
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
|
|
|
7 registered members (Karen Y, Kevin H, Daryl, dedication, ProdigalOne, 2 invisible),
3,113
guests, and 13
spiders. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Re: David Gates' prediction re Spring 2019
[Re: Charity]
#188054
12/15/18 05:22 AM
12/15/18 05:22 AM
|
SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
|
|
I was thinking today, what if the spring of 2019 is actually the end of the 1260 days of Daniel 12 running from the fall of 2015, and not the beginning of them? At first I was about to dismiss the idea out of hand, but the more I think about it, the more I'm constrained not to do that. You are claiming just what Bohr is speaking against. From secrets unsealed: DAVID GATES AND TIME PROPHECY: What is he doing? "There is no biblical example of events of a long symbolic apocalyptic time-period repeating in shorter, literal time. This is an unfounded conjecture.... There is no evidence that long apocalyptic time prophecies will repeat once more in shorter, literal time as if there were a reverse year/day principle!" (Elder Stephen Bohr, "A Response to David Gates: "The Door is About to Close ARE YOU READY?"). "Some will take the truth applicable to their time, and place it in the future. Events in the train of prophecy that had their fulfillment away in the past are made future, and thus by these theories the faith of some is undermined. Ms 31, 1896, p. 3. ('Testimony Concerning the Views of Prophecy Held by Brother John Bell,' November 8, 1896)" {1MR 195.2}To the same man of that day, she also said: "From the light that the Lord has been pleased to give me, you are in danger of doing the same work, presenting before others truths which have had their place and done their specific work for the time, in the history of the faith of the people of God. You recognize these facts in Bible history as true, but apply them to the future. They have their force still in their proper place, in the chain of events that have made us as a people what we are today, and as such they are to be presented to those who are in the darkness of error" {17MR 3.1}
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
|
|
|
Re: David Gates' prediction re Spring 2019
[Re: kland]
#188056
12/15/18 08:08 AM
12/15/18 08:08 AM
|
SDA
Active Member 2024
Supporting Member 2023
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,185
Alberta, Canada
|
|
While "imminent" and "soon" may have somewhat similar meanings, the connotations are far different. "Soon" registers as relaxed, even lackadaisical: your food will be here soon; this movie is coming soon...
Whereas, "imminent" invokes a solemn sense of immediacy, urgency, uncertainty, even peril!
ProdigalOne, In light of what you just said, what would you say in regards to it's been 100 years now, a period of time Gates mentioned as being "soon"? And regarding what APL said, although Gates did say he wasn't setting a date, (then proceeded to say maybe), when nothing happens this spring, what will others conclude about Adventists, about Gates? Firstly, when considered on a 6000 year scale, 100 years is a drop in the bucket. Secondly, didn’t Sister White say something to the effect that if the church had faithfully given the Midnight Cry, that Jesus would have already returned? That sounds “imminent” to me. But not "soon"? Do you believe that Jesus will delay His coming for another 100 years? Is it possible that He will come within the next year? 2 years? 5 years? How long should we wait, before we give the warning that His coming is “near, even at the door”? Is it possible that, as with the Midnight Cry spoken of by Sister White, God is waiting for us to step out in faith?
What the rest you say is all good and all, but we were talking the so called big deal about changing "imminent" with "soon". Question: Did Gates use "100 years" in reference to implying "soon"? I believe I have answered the question of the difference and import of "soon" and "imminent" in my previous post. It comes down to the connotations; the sense of urgency, inferred by "imminent". While, I do not claim to know precisely when Christ will return, I am 100% certain that this is not the time to water down its proximity by using a less urgent word! His return is nearer than it has ever been. We need to emphasize that fact not downplay it!
"...I will not forget you.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."
Isaiah 49:15-16
|
|
|
Re: David Gates' prediction re Spring 2019
[Re: JAK]
#188057
12/15/18 08:16 AM
12/15/18 08:16 AM
|
SDA
Active Member 2024
Supporting Member 2023
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,185
Alberta, Canada
|
|
I’m not certain what "Rule 57" is? But, isn’t it a bit disingenuous of you to quote regulations, JAK? I thought you didn’t believe in rules, or at least that it is possible to obey them?
"...I will not forget you.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."
Isaiah 49:15-16
|
|
|
Re: David Gates' prediction re Spring 2019
[Re: JAK]
#188058
12/15/18 08:36 AM
12/15/18 08:36 AM
|
SDA
Active Member 2024
Supporting Member 2023
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,185
Alberta, Canada
|
|
It's pretty clear both of you see the church as a country club for saints rather than a hospital for sinners. A country club is a place to play with sin by denying the power of God. "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away." 2 Timothy 3:1-5 A hospital is somewhere to acknowledge the curative power of Christ, obey His treatment plan willingly to the best of our ability, rest in His grace, and be healed of sin by the indwelling strength of His Spirit! "And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."2Timothy 3: 15-17 "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen." Jude 1: 24-25
"...I will not forget you.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."
Isaiah 49:15-16
|
|
|
Re: David Gates' prediction re Spring 2019
[Re: Charity]
#188059
12/15/18 11:01 AM
12/15/18 11:01 AM
|
SDA
Active Member 2020
Very Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,673
TN, USA
|
|
I came, I saw, I cringed, I left.
"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
|
|
|
Re: David Gates' prediction re Spring 2019
[Re: Daryl]
#188062
12/15/18 12:43 PM
12/15/18 12:43 PM
|
SDA
Active Member 2024
Supporting Member 2023
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,185
Alberta, Canada
|
|
Thank you for the link, Daryl.
"...I will not forget you.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."
Isaiah 49:15-16
|
|
|
Re: David Gates' prediction re Spring 2019
[Re: Daryl]
#188066
12/15/18 01:51 PM
12/15/18 01:51 PM
|
SDA
Active Member 2024
Supporting Member 2023
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,185
Alberta, Canada
|
|
Pastor Bohr makes some good points. I would like to hear Gates’ response to the specific time setting quotes from Ellen White. I do question some of Bohr’s statements, particularly, regarding the "Liberal" pope vs "Conservative" Trump as well as his responses to the changes in the Fundamental Beliefs. Bohr’s written response is quite long and covers a lot of ground. In the interest of brevity, I will focus on his FB statements. I have already discussed the change from "imminent" to "soon" in this thread, so I won’t belabour the point. Bohr gives a definition of "soon" as "in the twinkling of an eye". I have searched numerous dictionaries and thesauruses without seeing this definition. The Strong’s definition of “twinkling of an eye” is "a moment of time". For “soon” Strong’s says, “when, whenever, as long as, as soon as”. Bohr takes issue with Gate’s claim that "the Spirit of Prophecy is the sign that we are God’s remnant people..." He states that the sign is actually the Sabbath. This seems somewhat disingenuous. No doubt most of you are familiar with these verses: "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Revelation 12:17 "I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." Revelation 19:10 The remnant church will keep all Ten Commandments and have the testimony of Jesus which is the Spirit of Prophesy. The FB describe the SOP as an “identifying mark of the remnant church”. Also, consider Ezekiel 9:4, “And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.” Playing semantic games with the terms “mark” and “sign” is grasping at straws. The remnant church will be identified by both Commandment keeping and Prophesy. Bohr contrasts the new and old FB by highlighting the changes. "One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and it was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. As the Lord’s messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested." After San Antonio the Fundamental Belief reads: The Scriptures testify that one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and we believe it was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. Her writings speak with prophetic authority and provide comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction to the church. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. It is interesting that Bohr fails to highlight one particular change, the addition of the words “we believe”. (The italics are mine) “This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and ‘we believe’ it was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White.” This represents a definite watering down! Stating something as a fact is much different than claiming to believe in it’s veracity! On a dark and stormy night, saying, “I believe the path on the right leads home” is far different than “the path on the right leads home”! Revelation tells us clearly that it is a fact! "I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." Revelation 19: 10 Furthermore, Bohr claims that “continuing and authoritative source of truth...” equates to “speak with prophetic authority...” Apparently, the present tense of “speak” is supposed to be synonymous with “continuing”? Again, I find this rather slippery logic. “Continuing” connotes an unbroken chain of guidance; whereas “speak” suggests a more sporadic voice that chimes in when necessary, rather than being a constant presence. Subtle differences perhaps, but a series of small changes is far easier to foist on an unsuspecting church than major ones. Also, if the meaning is the same, why change the wording at all? The new wording is certainly not any clearer than the old one. I am suspicious of change for the sake of change! In conclusion, I find it curious that so much effort is being expended by so many of those claiming to be friends of David Gates. For instance, Bohr’s lengthy attack is overkill. I have only given it a cursory reading, but found more than a few specious arguments. Why not stick to the few points that may have some basis, such as the date setting, and the fat and the lean years, etc.? As previously stated, I really do not know what to make of David Gates. He is obviously sincere; on the other hand, I really do not know much about him, or his earlier messages. I will be following this thread and listening as Gates responds to his critics, with great interest. It is in no one’s interest to throw the baby out with the bath water. I am grateful to have such well informed and diversely gifted brothers and sisters on this site. "Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety." Proverbs 11:14
"...I will not forget you.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."
Isaiah 49:15-16
|
|
|
Re: David Gates' prediction re Spring 2019
[Re: Charity]
#188073
12/15/18 09:17 PM
12/15/18 09:17 PM
|
SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
|
|
Let's hope Gates is not like Hananiah
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
|
|
|
Re: David Gates' prediction re Spring 2019
[Re: ProdigalOne]
#188074
12/15/18 11:47 PM
12/15/18 11:47 PM
|
OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2020
4500+ Member
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
|
|
Pastor Bohr makes some good points. I would like to hear Gates’ response to the specific time setting quotes from Ellen White. I do question some of Bohr’s statements, particularly, regarding the "Liberal" pope vs "Conservative" Trump as well as his responses to the changes in the Fundamental Beliefs. Bohr’s written response is quite long and covers a lot of ground. In the interest of brevity, I will focus on his FB statements. I have already discussed the change from "imminent" to "soon" in this thread, so I won’t belabour the point. Bohr gives a definition of "soon" as "in the twinkling of an eye". I have searched numerous dictionaries and thesauruses without seeing this definition. The Strong’s definition of “twinkling of an eye” is "a moment of time". For “soon” Strong’s says, “when, whenever, as long as, as soon as”. Bohr takes issue with Gate’s claim that "the Spirit of Prophecy is the sign that we are God’s remnant people..." He states that the sign is actually the Sabbath. This seems somewhat disingenuous. No doubt most of you are familiar with these verses: "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Revelation 12:17 "I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." Revelation 19:10 The remnant church will keep all Ten Commandments and have the testimony of Jesus which is the Spirit of Prophesy. The FB describe the SOP as an “identifying mark of the remnant church”. Also, consider Ezekiel 9:4, “And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.” Playing semantic games with the terms “mark” and “sign” is grasping at straws. The remnant church will be identified by both Commandment keeping and Prophesy. Bohr contrasts the new and old FB by highlighting the changes. "One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and it was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. As the Lord’s messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested." After San Antonio the Fundamental Belief reads: The Scriptures testify that one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and we believe it was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. Her writings speak with prophetic authority and provide comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction to the church. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. It is interesting that Bohr fails to highlight one particular change, the addition of the words “we believe”. (The italics are mine) “This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and ‘we believe’ it was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White.” This represents a definite watering down! Stating something as a fact is much different than claiming to believe in it’s veracity! On a dark and stormy night, saying, “I believe the path on the right leads home” is far different than “the path on the right leads home”! Revelation tells us clearly that it is a fact! "I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." Revelation 19: 10 Furthermore, Bohr claims that “continuing and authoritative source of truth...” equates to “speak with prophetic authority...” Apparently, the present tense of “speak” is supposed to be synonymous with “continuing”? Again, I find this rather slippery logic. “Continuing” connotes an unbroken chain of guidance; whereas “speak” suggests a more sporadic voice that chimes in when necessary, rather than being a constant presence. Subtle differences perhaps, but a series of small changes is far easier to foist on an unsuspecting church than major ones. Also, if the meaning is the same, why change the wording at all? The new wording is certainly not any clearer than the old one. I am suspicious of change for the sake of change! In conclusion, I find it curious that so much effort is being expended by so many of those claiming to be friends of David Gates. For instance, Bohr’s lengthy attack is overkill. I have only given it a cursory reading, but found more than a few specious arguments. Why not stick to the few points that may have some basis, such as the date setting, and the fat and the lean years, etc.? As previously stated, I really do not know what to make of David Gates. He is obviously sincere; on the other hand, I really do not know much about him, or his earlier messages. I will be following this thread and listening as Gates responds to his critics, with great interest. It is in no one’s interest to throw the baby out with the bath water. I am grateful to have such well informed and diversely gifted brothers and sisters on this site. "Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety." Proverbs 11:14 Thanks for those thoughts Prodigal. I found them helpful. Elder Bohr and Eugene Prewit are typical of the sincere, devout, conservative branch of Adventism, typical of those men who view themselves as the guardians of historical, orthodox Adventist doctrine and prophetic interpretation. And the Lord has used them in that capacity to a large extent. The problem comes when these men hold onto our doctrinal and prophetic errors as though they were the foundations of Adventism, notwithstanding the clearest evidence from the inspired sources that they are in fact errors. Gates is open to revising his beliefs when he encounters errors and while he may at times be exchanging one set of errors for another, he is setting a right example of being ready to reject error and accept new light. That speaks well for him. And the fact that he has been at the forefront of recognizing our departures from the faith at San Antonio in contrast to Elders Bohr, Wilson and Finley is yet another sign that God is with him. And I've mentioned other positive indicators.
|
|
|
Re: David Gates' prediction re Spring 2019
[Re: Charity]
#188075
12/16/18 12:44 AM
12/16/18 12:44 AM
|
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,433
Canada
|
|
"One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and it was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. As the
Lord’s messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction.
They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested."
After San Antonio the Fundamental Belief reads:
The Scriptures testify that one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and we believe it was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. Her writings speak with prophetic authority and
provide comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction to the church. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. One of the big differences is this-- The first makes EGW's writings the "continuing and authoritative source of truth". It places her writings on par with scripture. The second places her writings in the correct prospective -- as "prophetic authority" taking their place in prophetic progression of earth's history. And yes "we believe" Why -- because we have studied scripture and see her writings as illuminating scriptural truths for these last days. But every person must find that to be true by first seeing that truth from scripture, and recognizing it in her writings, not by blindly accepting it because someone said it was fact. Immanent vs soon True Immanent does have the meaning of something hanging right over our heads, ready to drop any minute. While "soon" means "in a short while" "in the near future". In a sense the word "immanent" has been overworked and done the job of keeping people "reined up" until it has lost it's meaning. My grandparents, who grew old and passed to their rest forty some years ago, thought the coming was immanent (they lived through two horrific wars, they thought it was immanent). My father, who lived through one of those wars thought it was immanent -- he was laid to rest 25 years ago. Immanent has a "time setting" feeling that results in disappointment and frustration. "Soon" is the better word. Christ's coming is soon -- whether it's next year or another decade or more. "Soon" is an OPEN word, that urges us to be ready ALL THE TIME, whether it's "immanent" or in the near future. Besides -- for us individually it could be anytime -- life is uncertain.
|
|
|
|
|
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
|
|
|
