David Gates, president of Gospel Ministries International, a supporting Adventist ministry, released a video on You Tube a week or two ago (mid October 2018) that sounds an alarm to get ready for a major event within Adventism and the world in March or April 2019. He is convinced that God will enter into judgment with Adventism. I have had the same conviction for some time - that God is indeed about to test Adventism this spring at a new level that will result soon afterward in the outpouring of the latter rain.

As he anticipated many have already leveled the charge of time setting but in my view this is not time-proclamation but a call to prayer and self-examination, humility and repentance like in the time of the apostles. Before the early rain was poured out the Lord told the disciples to wait for it and as they waited they were to prepare for it. Christ didn't specify the day that the Spirit would be poured out but the disciples, being Jews and seeing that Christ had been slain on Passover and rose on the Feast of First Fruits no doubt viewed the next spring feast as a most probable time for the divine outpouring.

Below, in point form I've summarized the scriptural evidence that in the same way favors this spring.

1. The only bible prophecy that Christ while on earth directly admonished us to read and understand is Daniel's regarding the abomination of desolation.
2. Ellen White also urges us like Christ to study the warning in Daniel 12 because we need to understand it better than we do.
3. Because Daniel 9, like Daniel 8 and 12, warns of the abomination it must also be central to Christ's warning and apply especially to the end.
4. Daniel 9 was fulfilled originally in type in the last half of Zechariah 6. The crowning of Joshua the high priest as the Branch points to the true fulfillment, the glorification of Christ in His people during the final outpouring of the Spirit.
5. The division of the 69 weeks into two segments of 7 and 62 has no historic fulfillment. No one knows at this point in time exactly how it will be fulfilled but it appears to be a key to understanding the onset of the latter rain in this way: The church will appear as though it is about to fall but God will overrule and out of Zion God will issue the command to restore it. The anointing of Daniel 9 at the end of the seventh literal week points especially to the church during the latter rain.
6. Other key elements of Daniel 9 also clearly apply to the end-time. “Everlasting righteousness” is promised to the spotless bride of Christ. The end of “sin and transgression” in the church of God is promised before the close of probation. (Daniel 9:24). Daniel 9:24-27 should be read like this:



7. This saying of Christ, “until seventy times seven,” describes the limit of divine forbearance. It was an intentional, prophetic reference to the seventy times seven of Daniel 9.
8. The seventy weeks of Daniel 9 applies to all of God's people, Jew and gentile, in this way - as Sabbaticals. This is consistent with the Hebrew word for week which, according to Strongs, is literally “sevened”. Seventy times seven is 490 Sabbaticals or 70 Jubilees. This period of 3430 years is the probationary time of Spiritual Israel. The count of the Sabbatical years began when Israel entered the promised land in 1416 BC and ended 3431 years later in 2015. 1416 minus 3431 years (3430 years plus one to account for the missing transition year from BC to AD) is 2015. In my opinion, the judgment of the living began in that year.
9. In July of 2015 the Ellen White Estate released all the remaining unpublished manuscripts of Sister White. Among them was this prediction:
“I am now of the opinion that the Testimonies will not live among God’s people. They will be removed. I have some light on this point but cannot now give it. Said Christ, “I have many things to say unto you but ye cannot bear them now.” {Lt16-1875}
At the same time this prophecy was released it was fulfilled in part by the General Conference held July 2 to 11, 2015 in San Antonio, Texas where it was voted to remove the phrase “source of truth” in reference to her writings. It was further fulfilled at the same session following the vote that reaffirmed the non-ordination of women, when the North American Division, the NAD, openly declared its intention to disregard the vote. Since that time the NAD has been in open rebellion. This is clearly contrary to the counsel of Ellen White that the voted actions of the GC ought to be respected. The General Conference by failing to hold the NAD accountable has also disregarded her counsel. God will not permit this to go indefinitely.
10. In the fall of 66 AD Rome briefly besieged Jerusalem. The early Christians heeding the warning of Christ regarding the abomination of desolation fled Jerusalem knowing that Rome would return. Three and a half years later Rome did return and destroyed the city but none of the Christians perished in the siege. Similarly, at the close of the 70th Jubilee on September 24, 2015 Pope Francis stood before congress and was embraced by all three branches of America's government. In the spring of 2019, 3.5 years later Rome may well return again.
11. In April 2015 Francis issued a Papal Bull of indiction, Misericordiae Vultus (Latin: "The Face of Mercy"), inaugurating a Special Jubilee of Mercy, to run from 8 December 2015 to 20 November 2016. Wikipedia states: “The Holy Doors of the major basilicas of Rome (including the Great Door of St. Peter's) were opened, and special "Doors of Mercy" were opened at cathedrals and other major churches around the world, where the faithful could earn indulgences by fulfilling the usual conditions of prayer for the Pope's intentions, confession, and detachment from sin, and communion. During Lent of that year, special 24-hour penance services were celebrated, and during the year, special qualified and experienced priests called "Missionaries of Mercy" were available in every diocese to forgive even severe, special-case sins normally reserved to the Holy See's Apostolic Penitentiary.” This was in fulfillment of the prediction by the Apostle that at the time of the falling away the man of sin would be revealed as sitting in the temple of God showing himself that he is God. This was another indication that we are in the judgment of the living and the time of the falling away of God's people both Adventist and Catholic.
12. Ellen White tells us that at the beginning of the time of trouble “we were filled with the Holy Ghost and went forth to proclaim the Sabbath more fully.” Early Writings 33.2. If the 1260 days of the abomination of desolation begins this spring, the outpouring of the spirit will follow soon after.
13. The scattering or breaking of the power of the holy people at the end of the 1260 days in Daniel 12 by the abomination of desolation is the same event as the silencing of the two witnesses at the end of the 1260 days in Revelation 11. Christ applied this to the end. Ellen White also applies both to the end. A further evidence of a literal 1260 days is that unlike the earlier prophecies of Daniel which are given in symbols the prophecy of Daniel 10 through 12 is literal so the periods are also literal.
14. Referring to the seven thunders of Revelation 10 Ellen White says, “These relate to future events which will be disclosed in their order. Daniel shall stand in his lot at the end of the days.” There is a direct connection between the oath of Michael regarding the 1260 days and the scattering of the power of the holy people in Daniel 12 and the sounding of the seven thunders because Michael of Daniel 12 and the mighty angel of Revelation 10 are the same Person who utters the same oath, Jesus Christ.

I would be very careful of following what a person is saying over what the Bible is saying and over what EGW is also saying bearing in mind that the writings of EGW are the lesser light leading to the Greater Light (the Scriptures).


They didn't simply remove the words "source of truth" but replaced them with even stronger wording, "speak with prophetic authority".

Compare the wording of the 2010 Church Manual with the 2015 Church Manual:

From the "2010 Church Manual":

18. The Gift of Prophecy
"One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)" (2010 Manual, p.2010)

From the "2015 Church Manual":

18. The Gift of Prophecy
"The Scriptures testify that one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and we believe it was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. Her writings speak with prophetic authority and provide comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction to the church. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Num. 12:6; 2 Chron. 20:20; Amos 3:7; Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10; 22:8, 9.") (2015 Manual, p.168)

I would be careful of people who present what I would refer to as half truths, which David Gates seems to have done in reference to the change in the Church Manual from my previous post.

I would side with those who see the newer language as tamer. "Authoritative source of truth" is stronger, to my view, than simply "prophetic authority." The latter, by omitting "source of truth" as well as "authoritative," leaves the status of the prophet more generally to be determined by the individual.

We all know there will be some true prophets and many false prophets. To say, therefore, "prophetic authority," says little--for every prophet may make claims to this.

The question is, "Why change it?"

Jesus tells us "I AM the Way, the Truth, and the Life." Truth is vital. The great controversy hinges upon and battles over the question of what is truth. To remove a direct reference to Ellen White's testimonies as being a source of truth is misguided at best, and outright sinister at worst.


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

The change in wording at San Antonio was driven by a misguided desire to ensure that we are not viewed as placing Ellen White's writings on par with scripture. Bible believing Adventists do not use her writings to establish or define doctrine. But her writings are in fact an authoritative source of truth because according to scripture we are not to despise the prophetic gift. This was a very significant and unbiblical change. Gates is correct and time will tell what results flow from the change and how this was a significant fulfillment of her prediction of the death of the testimonies.

This change is one of the strongest evidences that Adventism is in the judgment of the living. In the world, probation lingers during the testimony of the two witnesses. The slaying of the two witnesses marks the end of probation for it. Their murder occurs in Sodom and Egypt. In the church the two witnesses are wounded and crucified in the house of Christ's friends. It is when the church turns a deaf ear to the Holy Spirit speaking through the testimonies that the two witnesses cease to live among us. This slaying of the two witnesses reached a new level in San Antonio. God is measuring us.

I was blessed by David's video message in that he reinforces the message to study and get ready. Thanks for posting the link

I think there are many concerned Adventist and good Christians that would like to see something major happen, but hoping something will happen doesn't make it so. I would agree with your statement that "To remove a direct reference to Ellen White's testimonies as being a source of truth is misguided at best, and outright sinister at worst."

The timing might be right for an American President to be impeached or for Iran to attack America's fleet in the Gulf?

When prophecy is fulfilled we will know: By their fulfillment Daniel and Revelation will explain themselves.

One thing I noticed is that he says that the Day of Atonement is September 23 in 2015.

The Jewish calendar runs in a 19-year cycle called the "Metonic Cycle", and the 171 years from 1844 to 2015 is exactly nine of these cycles (9 x 19).

So the actual Day of Atonement in 2015 would be a month later, approximately October 22 or 23.

This doesn't match the standard Jewish calendar, but the same was true in 1844.

That's a very good and valid observation and I agree that the actual Day of Atonement in 2015 was a month later. I was aware of that in 2015 as well and it wouldn't surprise me if Gates is also aware of this. Regardless, Gates is correct that we witnessed a prophetic fulfillment September 23 and 24. The great majority of the Jews were observing their Yom Kippur on the 23rd when the Pope met President Obama at the White House and spoke to thousands on the White House lawn. On the following day he addressed and was embraced by all three branches of American government, Legislative, Judicial and Executive, another major fulfillment. Our leaders who ought to know better blinded their eyes to the sinister designs and deadly errors of the Papacy, an institution that places a man on the throne of deity. On that day they denied the American motto, "In God we Trust" and America through its leaders wondered after the beast.

Glen, one reason I'm confident that this was a fulfillment of prophecy was that I'm the one who told David of an encounter I had in the spring of 2015.

On April 30, 2015 at about 4:15 AM as I was waking up I dreamed or heard a voice (I'm not sure which) say to me: "In yet five months I will purify the sons of Levi." I got up quickly and sat down to study to see whether it was just a dream or a divine message. First I looked up Malachi 3:3, the text quoted and the surrounding context. It says:

Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. 
Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: 
Mal 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. 
Mal 3:4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years. 
Mal 3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

Then I thought it might be helpful to calculate five Biblical months from April 30 and it came out to September 24, (147 days of three lunar months of 29 days and two of 30), the day following the Day of Atonement. It turned out to be the day that Pope Francis was embraced by all three branches of the American government.

But the Day of Atonement itself was the day the Pope was received at that White House by President Obama. I have reason to think that this meeting was more historic than most realize. Time will tell the outcome. I believe Mr. Obama's most important years may be ahead of him.

But, on the 24th, God suddenly, unexpectedly came to his temple and began to purify the sons of Levi. In my opinion this was a turning point in both human and Divine government. David and Pastor Brennan are saying the Papal address was a fulfillment of Daniel and Christ's prophecy of the abomination standing where it shouldn't and so they advise us to be prepared for a more overt assault 3.5 years later, this spring.

I've been convicted in the same way but haven't stated this publicly until now. I feel I shouldn't hold my peace any longer. I'm not saying something has to happen but I'm saying we ought to be prepared mentally, physically and spiritually for major changes. We should be like the good steward in the parable of Christ.

And if nothing happens as you claim???

We are to prepare NOW regardless, and the use of fear is not to be the motivating factor.

Can you answer when the Jewish calendar starts, that is, what initiates it? I have not found anyone is able to or willing to (Elle) say when.

I would disagree that it's stronger language or weaker language. To say, "authoritative source of truth" or "speak with prophetic authority" are one and the same thing to me. To argue differently are like the KJV only people. One must say as they always have heard it or it is somehow "lesser".

I was thinking of seeing what he had to say. But for him to give errors like that makes me not think it's worth the effort to go to the trouble to download and then spend the time listening. Too many people out there are promoting themselves.

But I wasn't clear if that was Charity or David Gates saying that?

But that would only be interesting to consider if we could figure out when the Jewish year actually starts. If it's off by two days, then it's non-relevant, right? And does the Jewish year here start the same time as where the pope is? Or Jerusalem?

Is there no concrete absolute way to determine when the Jewish year starts as to why no one can tell me? I've heard people say this is the day of Passover and the Bible proves it. A little while later they get "new light" and just as insistently claim the Bible never proved the other time but their "new" time is Biblical.

...And one gets tired and bored and apathetic with all this "new light" that's been regurgitated and recycled over and over....

The papal visit in September 2015 was most definitely a monumental and historic event. So many symbolic moves were made that gave the message that the papacy was the greater leader, higher than the president in America.
It was indeed an event that should awaken us to realize time is running out.

However, this constant trying to tie events to date setting is just NOT the message -- as Kland wrote -- the constant regurgitation and recycling of dates, only makes people tired and apathetic.

The date and event are not mentioned in any Biblical prophecy. It's based mainly on re-assigning various "times" and on human opinions and impressions.

Agree --
"We are to prepare NOW regardless, and the use of fear is not to be the motivating factor."

We'll know when the latter rain is close because the Lord tells us to pray for it at that time. Gates and I are saying that the Lord is saying: Good news, it's close, possibly this spring or summer, maybe sooner. Pray for it.

You should watch the part of this video where Gate's face and eyes appeared to glow to Adventists and non Adventists. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrSjNft6vS0&t=790s It reminds me of Early Writings where Ellen White describes the saints going from house to house with their faces aglow. Apparently for some people like Gates the start of the latter rain is now.

Key word, "possibly". Tranlation - we don't know, could be, we think so, maybe.

Ah - it is a claim, one witness, no video evidence other that the claim. Is it true? Could be, maybe, possibly.

The Lord has shown me that the message of the third angel must go, and be proclaimed to the scattered children of the Lord, but it must not be hung on time. I saw that some were getting a false excitement, arising from preaching time; but the third angel's message is stronger than time can be. I saw that this message can stand on its own foundation and needs not time to strengthen it; and that it will go in mighty power, and do its work, and will be cut short in righteousness. {EW 75.1}
 
This was the document I came upon last Monday in searching over my writings, and here is another which was written in regard to a man who was setting time in 1884, and sending broadcast his arguments to prove his theories. The report of what he was doing was brought to me at the Jackson [Michigan] camp meeting, and I told the people they need not take heed to this man's theory; for the event he predicted would not take place. The times and the seasons God has put in His own power. And why has not God given us this knowledge?--Because we would not make a right use of it if He did. A condition of things would result from this knowledge among our people that would greatly retard the work of God in preparing a people to stand in the great day that is to come. We are not to live upon time excitement. We are not to be engrossed with speculations in regard to the times and the seasons which God has not revealed. Jesus has told His disciples to "watch," but not for a definite time. His followers are to be in the position of those who are listening for the orders of their Captain; they are to watch, wait, pray, and work, as they approach the time for the coming of the Lord; but no one will be able to predict just when that time will come; for "of that day and hour knoweth no man." You will not be able to say that He will come in one, two, or five years, neither are you to put off His coming by stating that it may not be for ten or twenty years. { 1SM 189.2}
 
I plainly stated at the Jackson camp-meeting to those fanatical parties that they were doing the work of the adversary of souls; they were in darkness. They claimed to have great light that probation would close in October, 1884. {Ms12-1885}
 
I there stated in public that the Lord had been pleased to show me that there would be no definite time in the message given of God since 1844; and that I knew that this message which four or five were engaged in advocating with great zeal was heresy. The visions of this poor child were not of God. This light came not from heaven. Time was short; but the end was not yet. A great work was to be accomplished to prepare a people to be sealed with the seal of the living God. {Ms12-1885}
 
When probation ends, it will come suddenly, unexpectedly—at a time when we are least expecting it. But we can have a clean record in heaven today, and know that God accepts us; and finally, if faithful, we shall be gathered into the kingdom of heaven {Manuscript 95, 1906}.
 
God has not revealed to us the time when this message will close, or when probation will have an end. Those things that are revealed we shall accept for ourselves and for our children; but let us not seek to know that which has been kept secret in the councils of the Almighty. It is our duty to watch and work and wait, to labor every moment for the souls of men that are ready to perish. We are to keep walking continually in the footsteps of Jesus, working in his lines, dispensing his gifts as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. Satan will be ready to give to any one who is not learning every day of Jesus, a special message of his own creating, in order to make of no effect the wonderful truth for this time. {RH October 9, 1894, par. 10}

Good quotes. God help us to strike the right balance on this important issue. These quotes need to be balanced against her other statements that place most of Revelation in the future (including the time elements) and the warning of Christ to understand the abomination of desolation which also has a time period and other scripture such the promise in Amos that the Lord will do nothing but that he will first reveal it to his servants.

Throughout sacred history God has consistently told his people in advance of persecution and its length. Will He not do that in the case of the most deadly and global assault of Satan on His people at the end? If we fail to follow the counsel of Christ to understand the abomination of desolation we are unwise. We don't want to be among the unwise virgins. What Gates is saying is "Take this to the Lord, but in my opinion, the abomination and the latter rain are both around the corner". This is in line with the warning of Christ. It is in line with the promise in Amos and the divine directive to pray for the latter rain as it approaches.

History will be repeated. By looking back on history, we can know something of the future. For example: ==The French Revolution -- Revolution is brewing in America. The papal oppression through the civil powers will be repeated in greater magnitude. But nowhere does she state the time periods will be repeated, we only know "the time will be short".

EGW writes repeatedly that time will NEVER again be a test. We are not to base our message on time.





Indeed, the final crises is JUST AROUND THE CORNER. And now is the time to work for the Lord and be grounded in the gospel of salvation.
The following is an inspiring article by Ellen White called the "Closing Time".

Dedication you suggest what Gates and I are saying is fanciful and a distraction. Yet Gates is spreading the Adventist message more effectively than anyone of us. He ranks with Bachelor in terms of being among the most effective evangelist within Adventism. His ministry is working in some 90 countries. Look at his fruit and consider whether you might put your hand to your mouth before you condemn yourself by condemning the Lord's servants.

You imply that we're making time a test. Neither David or I believe or say or imply that. Let's put that issue to rest and move on if possible. But first, let me ask you this because this is where I think you have issues: What did you think of my point that God consistently informs us of the duration of persecution? Was that ever a test of faith historically - the 430 years in Egypt, 70 in Babylon, 10 in the church of Smyrna, 1260 in the church in the wilderness. It wasn't then and neither is it now. Adventists who misconstrue Ellen White are themselves guilty of making their own false test claiming the authority to overrule the time periods of scripture.

But how many are willing to see the wide difference between time setting and allowing for scriptural time periods. Ellen White was able to do this but we Adventists are like the Jews that returned from captivity who were so wary of recontaminating themselves with idolatry that they instead made idols of their opinions and traditions to guard against it.

But in these days of peril we are not to accept everything that men bring to us as truth. As professed teachers from God come to us declaring that they have a message from God, it is proper to inquire carefully, How do we know that this is truth? Jesus has told us that "false prophets shall arise and shall deceive many." But we need not be deceived; for the word of God gives us a test whereby we may know what is truth. The prophet says, "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." {RH, February 23, 1892 par. 2}
 
From this statement it is evident that it becomes us to be diligent Bible students, that we may know what is according to the law and the testimony. We are safe in no other course of action. {RH, February 23, 1892 par. 3}
 
 
Those who think they must preach definite time in order to make an impression upon the people do not work from the right standpoint. The feelings of the people may be stirred and their fears aroused, but they do not move from principle. An excitement is created; but when the time passes, as it has done repeatedly, those who moved out upon time fall back into coldness, darkness, and sin, and it is almost impossible to arouse their consciences without some great excitement. {4T 308.1}
 
God has not revealed to us the time when this message will close, or when probation will have an end. Those things that are revealed we shall accept for ourselves and for our children; but let us not seek to know that which has been kept secret in the councils of the Almighty. It is our duty to watch and work and wait, to labor every moment for the souls of men that are ready to perish. We are to keep walking continually in the footsteps of Jesus, working in his lines, dispensing his gifts as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. Satan will be ready to give to any one who is not learning every day of Jesus, a special message of his own creating, in order to make of no effect the wonderful truth for this time. {RH, October 9, 1894 par. 10}
 
Letters have come to me asking me if I have any special light as to the time when probation will close; and I answer that I have only this message to bear, that it is now time to work while the day lasts, for the night cometh in which no man can work. Now, just now, it is time for us to be watching, working, and waiting. The word of the Lord reveals the fact that the end of all things is at hand, and its testimony is most decided that it is necessary for every soul to have the truth planted in the heart so that it will control the life and sanctify the character. The Spirit of the Lord is working to take the truth of the inspired word and stamp it upon the soul so that the professed followers of Christ will have a holy, sacred joy that they will be able to impart to others. The opportune time for us to work is now, just now, while the day lasts. But there is no command for any one to search the Scripture in order to ascertain, if possible, when probation will close. God has no such message for any mortal lips. He would have no mortal tongue declare that which he has hidden in his secret councils. {RH, October 9, 1894 par. 11}
 
MARK - WE NOT HAVE 4 MONTHS TO GET READY - WE ONLY HAVE TODAY.
 
The world placed all time proclamation on the same level and called it a delusion, fanaticism, and heresy. Ever since 1844 I have borne my testimony that we were now in a period of time in which we are to take heed to ourselves lest our hearts be overcharged with surfeiting and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon us unawares. Our position has been one of waiting and watching, with no time proclamation to intervene between the close of the prophetic periods in 1844 and the time of our Lord’s coming. We do not know the day nor the hour, or when the definite time is, and yet the prophetic reckoning shows us that Christ is at the door. {Lt38-1888}
 
This time, which the Angel declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world’s history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which should precede the advent of our Lord. That is, the people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844. {Ms59-1900}
 
WE CAN HASTEN THEN COMING OF THE END!
 
He has put it in our power, through co-operation with Him, to bring this scene of misery to an end. "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Matthew 24:14. {Ed 263.2}

The Feast of First fruits and Pentecost were tied to the agrarian life-style of the Hebrews. They were not forward looking (i.e. not prophetic). They were thanksgiving feasts, first for the harvest (one sheaf) and then, 50 days later, for the food of the harvest (two loaves of bread).

Jesus died on the Passover. He was lifted up between earth and heaven that whoever of the Jews (i.e. his own) looked upon him and believed should be healed. He gave his life that theirs might be spared. His blood, shed outside the city, was (as it were) smeared on the city gates. This is the very same thing that happened on the day of Pentecost, except in one crucial and significant detail. Whereas on the Passover, He was PHYSICALLY present, on the day of Pentecost, he was present again but SPIRITUALLY so. All the words spoken by the disciples were pointing to Calvary so much so that the people were "cut to the heart ... Then those who gladly received his word were baptized." Acts 2

IN OTHER WORDS, GOD USED THE EXPERIENCE AND CULTURE OF THE PEOPLE TO TEACH THEM; and not the other way around.

Jesus, to a Jew, was the Lamb, the Rock, the Latter and Former Rain, the First-fruit, the Temple (a sanctuary), the High Priest, etc., etc., etc. But YOU, yes you -- now look around you, as a Gentile (a Canadian, an American perhaps) and see whether you can see the Love of God in YOUR OWN history and life experiences. Is HE your 911 when water or fire engulfs your home? Your firefighter, doctor, lawyer, flag, the turkey on Thanksgiving? Gentiles have their own story, but they blindly, and sometimes stupidly, seek to pontificate on the Hebrew metaphors and personifications not understanding what they are saying at all.

///
 

It's true Gates has been preaching a lot of truth. I have two "books" of DVD's of his preaching, and was quite impressed with a lot of it. His early work was quite astounding and seemed energized by the Holy Spirit.

But then something began to creep in that was problematic. When he got into the "predicting time" mode -- he threw a monkey wrench into his own preaching. He would have been far more effective IF he had stayed with simply preaching the gospel and the signs all around. But, as happens sometimes after a human experiences success, he veered off course.
Was it because the initial message, which at first brought a lot of conviction, didn't seem "exciting" enough anymore?

Why did he veer away from the plain guiding statements:



Starting around 2005, Gates began to voice "rough" time setting. Like - ‘we have but a few months left before the end arrives, at the most 24 months’ or ‘we have 36 months left, and if God is willing, no more than 48.’

Yet EGW writes:


I remember listening to one of his tapes back in 2008 where he present his “final economic collapse of North America”. He was saying the American dollar was becoming worthless, Europe and other countries didn't want to take it anymore, and basically that everyone should empty their bank accounts and send the money to independent ministries to get the news out before it was too late.
Even predicting -- "a soon complete collapse of the world economy by December 2009 - caused by the U.S.
printing of money to manage its debt"

Actually, if I remember, He first predicted the collapse for 9/11/08 basing this on the Joseph story in Genesis. Seven supposedly "fat" years, would be followed by seven "lean" years. Thus starting with the 9/11/01 attack, counting seven years he came to 9/11/08.
It seems he was still stretching it on to 9/11/10.
I'm not totally clear on all his reckonings -- except that it was all NOT prophetic, but simply speculations.

True the USA was facing economic crises in 2008, but that was ten years ago now, were the next seven years "lean" in comparison? Isn't the USA dollar stronger now, it did not collapse Sept. 11,2008 nor by December 2009, nor by Sept. 11, 2010. (that's not saying it couldn't or won't sometime) but all his time predictions were false.

David Gates began losing a lot of credibility and it was all due to his persistent refusal to accept the strict counsel of EGW in regards to any type of prophetic/predictive end time time-setting.

When he realized all his economic collapse theories weren't coming true -- didn't he project Christ's coming to the year 2031? This time he was basing it on a time line reaching back to Christ's crucifixion, placing it in the Great Week in Time framework -- 4000 years from creation to Christ's death and resurrection -- 2000 years to His second coming.

It's amazing -- people draw numbers from all over the Bible to set either specific or approximate dates -- The date setting disease seems to be incurable.




God has told us the last crises will be "short" [one hour, obviously short]-- He never gave us a time prophecy, and all who have tried to lift various time frames from Bible stories or from fulfilled prophetic timelines, and pasted them into endtime speculations of how long this or that will take, or when this or that will happen, have LOST THEIR CREDIBILITY.

It is interesting that he accuses the church of rejecting the testimonies, yet when they apply to what he is doing, he ignores them.
I had cousins working in South America and strong followers of Gates. This talk of the economic collapse which interestingly did not happen as he said it would, ended my interest in his teachings, that was quite a while ago now.
Let's hope not, for Mark has been infected with it for some time.

Looking the people's comments on Gates YouTube sermon shows the fear that people have by his teaching. Motivation by fear is a false motivation, it is not true obedience.

Gates as you point out Dedication has gone too far on some of these things. He seems to be a humble man. Maybe he has already apologized. If not, he will eventually if the Lord is with him. And the Lord definitely seems to be with him. He may have lost credibility with some but apparently not with the Lord. We all say things we regret. We're all learning or should be.

A couple days ago I was talking to a friend and I said, "This is the first time in history that a nation has been able to print money for an extended period without backing it and not suffer the consequences. With our trade deficit, ballooning federal debt and reckless monetary policy it is a house of card. It can't go on indefinitely." While Gates timing was off, his concerns are valid. He assumed history would be repeated because this has never happened before. The Lord has had mercy on us who are not prepared.

It is true as well Dedication that I've asserted on this site that we can't safely ignore the time prophecies of Daniel and Revelation. Adventists who misconstrue Ellen White as prohibiting this are themselves guilty of making their own test claiming the authority to overrule the time periods of scripture and condemning their brothers who say let the end time prophecies speak.

But how many of us are willing to see the wide difference between time setting and allowing for the proper place of scriptural time periods. Ellen White was able to do this but we Adventists are like the Jews that returned from captivity who were so wary of recontaminating themselves with idolatry that they instead made idols of their opinions and traditions to guard against it. If the scriptural case for the fall of 2015 was set out fully, how many Adventists would look at it candidly? Christ knowing the condition of his own people did not belabor the point that his ministry was the fulfillment of Daniel 9. Very few were ready for that kind of investigation of the prophecies.

In the same way, clearly David knows more than what he shared. Yet his discretion in not fully sharing his knowledge is used as a justification for criticism. How wise is it to find fault with an unknown that if it were shared would be misunderstood?. Christ didn't fully explain the seventy weeks to the disciples at the start of His ministry. But He gave them enough evidence to make an intelligent decision that the Messiah had come. In the same way, when Christ stands up and begins the judgment of the living we can expect most people to miss it and it will not be until the out pouring of the Spirit that God's people will realize more accurately where they are prophetically.

I'm not saying categorically that David is right. I'm saying it would be wise for us to prayerfully consider the real possibility that this is a divine call for preparation like the Lord instructed the disciples to do before Pentecost. We're admonished that the Lord will do nothing without revealing it to his servants the prophets. And we should bear in mind that according to the SOP we don't understand the mark of the beast fully nor will we until the scroll is unrolled.

Remember, the majority of Adventists will be like chaff in the wind when the test comes. One likely reason is that many of us will not recognize the mark for what it is and so excuse ourselves and justify our own course. We'll know soon enough if David is right, but how many will recognize it if he is? When Christ was crucified and hanging on the cross how many understood that they were witnessing the death of the Son of God?

One more plea: Please consider friends the possibility that the warning in Daniel 12 that Ellen White says we need to understand is a warning of 3.5 years of persecution in the near future, possibly starting this spring, possibly sooner, possibly later.

Inspiration tells us that what seems right to a man may be the ways of death, and that we are not to put our trust in the arm of flesh, nor the wisdom (foolishness) of man. Mrs. White addresses the apparent success of a man thusly:




Charity, my plea to you is this: Reach out to those within your circle of influence, teaching the Third Angel's message while omitting the chaff of time-setting. As the Bible clearly points out, the day of decision is always "today." That's much sooner, and therefore more impressive, than next spring, next year, or 3.5 years from now.

Furthermore, how many people will join God's ranks by hearing about the persecution that will come to them in doing so? I would plead with you to drop this out of your message. It strengthens no one. What Adventist, even a staunch, lifelong, vegan-to-the-core, died-in-the-wool, fifth-generation, Ellen-White-believing one, would be encouraged by talk of persecution? While we know it will happen, it is not the message we are to carry to the world. The message of the Third Angel is that of keeping God's commandments. His law should be our focus. We look to Him, not to our persecutors, for help (see Ps. 121).

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Green, I agree 100%.

PLEASE quote where EGW says this. Can you?

Has anybody seen this?

This is the video both in the opening post (OP) of this thread and below that Mark Finley was referencing:

APL, this is the quote I had in mind:

This prophecy above is being fulfilled today before our eyes by sincere men such as Mark Finley. For those who are interested I've posted some comments on his presentation which is featured here on Fulcrum 7. I also recommend reading the full letter from which the above quote was taken.

In the letter one of the main burdens of Sister White is to stress the point that Daniel 12 teaches character perfection and victory over sin. That is also central to the warning.

Mark - can you substantiate your you claim that Ellen White says there will be 3.5 years of persecution in the near future or not? I read your comments on F7. You have not sustained your claim. Can you give clear proof or not?

You misunderstood APL. I admonished that we should take her counsel to heart to study the warning in Daniel 12. And then I gave some thoughts on my view of what she was getting at. What do you and others think. Why did she urge us to do that? Why did Christ Himself point us to this chapter and to the abomination of desolation?

Ok, I had some time and couldn't help myself but to see what everyone was talking about. Was that the video you wanted us to watch? Because I sat through half of the 58 minutes thinking he was going to get to part about the church falling in the last half of it. But it didn't happen. While entertaining, and most was showing how God works at the last minute, I was disturbed when they broke the contract and Gates presumed that God would make up the money due.

58 minutes mostly wasted. And no, I did not see the part where "Gate's face and eyes appeared to glow to Adventists and non Adventists." He did claim a couple of people said that. Not condemning nor supporting Gates' claim, but it wasn't what you said we'd see.

I'm with APL in that it came across that you said Ellen White said Daniel 12 means there is "3.5 years of persecution in the near future, possibly starting this spring, possibly sooner, possibly later". Especially with His Child and others saying the current pope, the current president, means such and such, this suggests that you discovered something in Ellen White's writings that pointed to 2019. Yes, we should study the warnings of the Bible, but studying warnings is different than setting a date for spring of 2019. And implying or alluding she said so. Maybe you're saying something totally different here, but that's not what came across. What came across is you are claiming new light that spring of 2019 something is going to happen. You see what credibility Elle has with 2012, and His Child has with popes and presidents. Be careful or no one will listen to you.

Would you agree or disagree that my quote from before applies here? Or at least why some would think that way?

I have been made very sad in reading the pamphlet that has been issued by Brother S. [SEE APPENDIX.] and by those associated with him in the work he has been doing. Without my consent, they have made selections from the Testimonies, and have inserted them in the pamphlet they have published, to make it appear that my writings sustain and approve the position they advocate. In doing this they have done that which is not justice or righteousness. Through taking unwarrantable liberties they have presented to the people a theory that is of character to deceive and destroy. In times past many others have done this same thing, and have made it appear that the Testimonies sustained positions that were untenable and false. {TM 32.3}

No comment from anybody regarding this video????

Don't really need to waste time with Gates.

It’s pretty clear that Mark Finley does not believe the Gates message is a genuine revelation. Near the end of the video, he talks about the division of authority within the church. Is he inferring that the church administration has no authority over Gates; therefore, the only way to prevent members from being hoodwinked is to put out cautionary videos?

It makes me wonder, if the General Conference is only responsible for "international" matters, what is to be done when entire Conferences, such as Florida with its militant dedication to Spiritual Formation, go astray. Leaving church members to fend for themselves? See Rick’s thread: “Apostasy Of A Most Startling Nature....
http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=187389

That video was featured at Fulcrum 7 and I posted several comments there.

A few nights ago I found this You Tube message from Paul Chapman. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Hc2npmJWQU that is also responding urgently to David's video. I'd never heard of him before. Chapman is an Adventist minister apparently from NZ or Australia who warns against setting a date for the close of probation for Adventists. His 15 minute video is much better than Finley's in spirit and content and he makes a valid point that we should not specify a time for probation to close for the world or the church but I was glad to see that many viewers were prepared to vigorously defend David's overall message and many of them did it very well. If fact they defended the message so well that Chapman felt obliged to post a further explanation in the comments below his video. I was a little concerned that he would undermine the influence of the message but instead I was glad to find that the message is having a powerful impact far and near to bring revival and the effect of the Chapman video is only to spread the message all the more.

And if you followed the Finley video posted on Fulcrum 7, you'd know that fewer were prepared to openly endorse the message there. Still, I could sense it was having an impact there as well. I don't doubt that the Lord is pleased with what David shared. This is not a false excitement but is a divine wake-up call and present truth imo.

I had an interesting dream yesterday morning that confirms in my mind (see what you all think) that we have more to learn regarding events in Daniel and Revelation. For example, in Revelation 13, when the wound is healed the world wonders after the beast. Then after this or about the same time, the lamb-like beast makes an image of the first beast. What happened on October 23 and 24, 2015 in Washington DC was a significant step in the healing process but I've believed for some time that the full healing will take place in the old world while the image will be formed in the new. This dream tends to confirm that and suggests that the UK is soon to come back fully into the fold of Rome. One reason for sharing this is that it gives us something concrete to look for in the coming months, and if England does this, we'll know that the US will follow shortly after or simultaneously.

There's one other related prophecy I've been studying and praying over that I'd invite you all to investigate some more and that is the prophecy in Daniel 11 that “ships of Chittim” will block or defeat the plans of the King of the North, which is the USA and its allies in my view. I suspect this is what will cause the UK and the US to heal the wound in the old world and set up an image of the beast in the new. Based on Daniel 11:29 forward what I think may happen is that not only will natural disasters cause Americans and others to seek God and mistakenly attribute their calamities to profaning Sunday, but that America and its allies will also suffer a major military humiliation. This will be so embarrassing to the national pride in the US that Americans will believe they are under God's judgments and in order to restore the Divine favor they will make it their global mission to unite the world in Sunday worship as they seek to restore their power and prestige as leader of the NWO.

I expect that after this military reversal the papacy will be pivotal in brokering peace globally in its role as the world's dominant moral authority. The world, especially Europe, will say, "Who is like unto the Beast" and the answer will truthfully be, no earthly power in modern times in the old world has equaled the power of the Holy Roman Empire of Europe. Napoleon, the Kaiser and Hitler all attempted to restore that glory on a secular basis but Europe will remember its roots and restore it successfully this time on the original plan however short lived.

But regarding the UK, here's the dream:

I dreamed I was a passenger on a bus. The bus came into a city and I looked out the window and saw an attractive older brick building with a sign on the front that it was a brewery. The commercial buildings around it were also attractive older brick buildings but I didn't know where I was so I went to the front of the bus to find out. At the front I discovered the bus was a red double decker so I thought “I must be in London”.

Next I found myself on foot in a new part of London. This suburb was a full-service gated community that had everything – attractive newly constructed two and three story housing complexes, shopping malls, government services, transportation etc. All of these buildings and services were linked together and functioned as a unit. The shopping mall was accessible only to the members of the community. Membership in the community was regulated by the government.

As a visitor I went to a government employment office in the mall and watched a foreign man in his 40's from India apparently registering for work. At the end of the registration process he received several plastic encoded business cards that approved him to apply for work at particular businesses. He was friendly and allowed me to look at his cards. I asked for one but he said it would not be valid for me, I would have to get my own from the government. .As a visitor I wasn't needing to register for work but I wanted to learn more about the community so I got up and exited the mall and walked around the community. Everything seemed normal. Then I went back into the mall. The mall had two main entrances, and this time I went in the other entrance and I noticed it had electronic scanners and warning signs posted for those exiting the mall.

The warning signs in bold red letters stated that no one should exit the mall without registering with the government. As a foreigner I hoped it didn't apply to me but it concerned me so instead of looking around the mall I decided I should get out while I could. But as soon as I entered the scanners the alarm went off and some kind of force field automatically lifted me back into the mall and set me in a line up of people waiting to be processed by a government interrogator. The purpose of the interrogator wasn't to find the truth but to condemn, punish and stigmatize those who had failed to register. The punishments were severe - imprisonment and death. I could see now that the government had tight control of everything and that people were being unjustly detained in plain view like I had been while other shoppers and businessmen went about their business as though nothing unusual or wrong was happening. The weak, the elderly and young children were especially targeted and processed by the interrogator but for most people it was business as usual. I expected no justice or sympathy from the interrogator when my turn came but the dream ended before I was processed.

I can't say beyond a doubt that the dream was inspired by the Lord but I'm sharing it because I think there is a reasonable chance since it appears to line up with scripture.

So - Gates is wrong in setting dates. He is doing exactly what we are told to do.

Mark now SPECULATES what is going to happen.

We can look at the SDA church and see what is happening. In the Upper Room before the crucifixion, there was strife among how many of the disciples? ALL of them! Strife over what? Power, authority? Are we not seeing that in the SDA church right now, for every part of it?

Click Here for Judas PowerPoint - Audio to follow

APL, I am more than a little glad if you've accepted the Gates message. It's present truth imo. I'll be glad as well to admit it if I'm wrong and Gates is right to point to this spring as the close of probation for Adventists. After listening to Chapman I though he (Chapman) made a valid point and had the backing of the SOP on this but I could be mistaken. I'm not looking for followers. David and I and many others see eye to eye on this that the spring of 2019 is a divine appointment.

The power point presentation looks promising. I'll check out the audio when you post it. Thanks

Correction: So - Gates is wrong in setting dates. He is doing exactly what we are told NOT to do.

Assuming that Gates is correct and probation closes for Adventists in the spring of 2019, how will we know? Are there other events that are to occur immediately afterward?

Regarding the close of probation, as I said, I think Gates probably went too far to claim it would close this coming spring. But I fully agree with the overall message that Adventism is being judged now because it agrees with scripture that "judgment must begin at the house of God". I Peter 4:17. Adventists are in the judgment of the living imo. I also think that this process will accelerate this spring which I expect to be prophetically significant and that we should look for and prepare for the start of persecution in the western world.

About what else to look for in the coming months I'll post another article soon on "The Euphrates and the Judgment of Babylon".

Yes, Gates went where he should not have gone. In his teaching, there no space for the working of the SOP which said that Christ could have come in the 1800s. Mark, you too are guessing.

Here is another look at the current times from a "Historical Escatological Superposition" view that looks at the chart we have been given and pinpoints where we are on that chart. We are not in the judgment time of the living, but we are so close.

God has given us His word that we may become acquainted with its teachings and know for ourselves what He requires of us. When the lawyer came to Jesus with the inquiry, "What shall I do to inherit eternal life?" the Saviour referred him to the Scriptures, saying: "What is written in the law? how readest thou?" Ignorance will not excuse young or old, nor release them from the punishment due for the transgression of God's law; because there is in their hands a faithful presentation of that law and of its principles and claims. It is not enough to have good intentions; it is not enough to do what a man thinks is right or what the minister tells him is right. His soul's salvation is at stake, and he should search the Scriptures for himself. However strong may be his convictions, however confident he may be that the minister knows what is truth, this is not his foundation. He has a chart pointing out every waymark on the heavenward journey, and he ought not to guess at anything. {GC 598.1}

APL, the SOP says "none no how soon" referring to the world. But the apostle affirms that it began in his day for the church:

Do you APL and the rest of you all, brothers and sisters, think the world will come under judgment and the Lord not let us know? The first angel's announcement will be repeated with the power of the latter rain, "The hour of His judgment is come". That message will be authenticated by the blasts of the trumpets that also announce the impending doom and fall of Babylon. But that time of judgment is now for the house of God. We have to be sealed by the early rain in order to receive the latter.

There are 2 ways to look at the First Angel's Message: "The hour of His judgment is come." Combine this with Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. WHO decides our destiny? WE DO. If we judge God to be gentle, good, faithful, joyful, peaceful, long suffering, someone you can love, someone you can put total trust in, that is what knowing God is like, and THAT is eternal life.

Or, you can fear (as be afraid of) God, because He will kill you if you don't love Him back, that is knowing God wrongly, and you cannot trust such an individual. That in the case of God will be death.

Yes, the hour of His judgment is come, who will judge God? Romans 3:4 God forbid: yes, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That you might be justified in your sayings, and might overcome when you are judged.

The shortness of time is urged as an incentive for us to seek righteousness and to make Christ our friend. This is not the great motive. It savors of selfishness. Is it necessary that the terrors of the day of God be held before us to compel us through fear to right action? This ought not to be. Jesus is attractive. He is full of love, mercy, and compassion. He proposes to be our friend, to walk with us through all the rough pathways of life. He says to you, I am the Lord thy God; walk with me, and I will fill thy path with light. Jesus, the Majesty of Heaven, proposes to elevate to companionship with himself those who come to him with their burdens, their weaknesses, and their cares. He will make them his dear children, and finally give them an inheritance of more value than the empires of kings, a crown of glory richer than has ever decked the brow of the most exalted earthly monarch. {RH, August 2, 1881 par. 6}
 
It is our duty to love him as our Redeemer. He commands our love, and as a friend he invites our love. Christ's invitation to us all is a call to a life of peace and rest,--a life of liberty and love, and to a rich inheritance in the future immortal life. Why, then, should we resist his invitation and refuse his love? If we choose to live with Christ through the ceaseless ages of eternity, why not choose him as our best and most honored and loved companion here? Christ calls us to walk with him in this world in the path of humble, trustful obedience, which will secure a pure, holy, happy life. Which will we choose,--liberty in Christ, or bondage and tyranny in the service of Satan? It is our privilege to have a calm, close, happy walk with Jesus every day we live. {RH, August 2, 1881 par. 7}
 
We need not be alarmed if this path of liberty is laid through conflicts and sufferings. The liberty we shall enjoy will be the more valuable because we made sacrifices to obtain it. The peace which passeth knowledge will cost us battles with the powers of darkness, struggles severe against selfishness and inward sins. The victories gained daily through persevering, untiring effort in well-doing, will be precious through Christ who hath loved us, "who gave himself for us that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people zealous of good works." The excellence of Christ we should seek to obtain. In the face of temptation we should school ourselves to firm endurance, which will not provoke one murmuring thought, although we may be weary in toiling, and in fighting the good fight of faith. {RH, August 2, 1881 par. 8}

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Do you know God as He truly is?

David Gates - Even at the Door. He mentions about keeping the "statutes". It's been my experience when those promoting "the last message", by "statutes" they mean feast days. Is that what David Gates believes and promotes?

Here is another response to the David Gates "Even at the Door" video:

Gates doesn't observe or promote feast days. Let's be charitable and give others the benefit of the doubt. Some are quick to seize on a suggestion so for the sake of the weak let's not give them fodder for evil surmising.

I posted a link to that video earlier on the thread and commented:

It is a "long" thread for Daryl.

I must admit that I am on the fence regarding David Gates.
Many of you are far better informed on these issues than I am.
What are your thoughts regarding these questions:

Does he really contradict Sister White?
Does he actually specify a time, or is his message speaking
of a season rather than a specific day?
Why is the church leadership so determined to discredit him?
Where was this vocal outrage when representatives from our church were clasping hands with the Pope in 2016?
Where was this outrage when a practicing lesbian was baptized in California?
Where is the outrage at the wholesale satanic slaughter of the unborn in our "medical" institutions?

Daryl, Mark, and anyone else with an opinion, I would be grateful for your
thoughts on the questions raised in this video from Proclaim Him TV? https://youtu.be/52gY7Bsa4nE

True. But I just asked a question as Gates did mention that. But he does seem to think there's some significance to events happening on feast days. Have there ever been an earthly event that happened on a feast day after Christ died? Heavenly event, yes. But I know of no earthly event that had significance. One could offer Pentecost. And perhaps that could be one. But was that event because of Pentecost or was it because there were people from all over coming together, that the purpose of the event was to inform the people. For if that was significant because of the day, then we have a problem with the event happening to Cornelius. So I say not.

All earthly events connected to feast days ended at the cross. The 2nd coming may or may not come on a feast day, but for us to associate an earthly event, such as the pope visiting someone, is not relevant. No one can even determine when the feast days are. There are quite a variety of people saying this day, that day, next month, last month. Use the barley, don't use the barley, use the equinox, don't, new moon before, new moon after, new moon closest. So for someone to say the pope came on a feast day is neither provable nor disprovable.

And Gates is guilty of exaggerating things. While there are others, and I think some here, who come across as Green on English words, he is exaggerating the wording being changed from 'imminent' to 'soon' for Christ's return. He said 'soon' could be 100 years or longer. (I go, "error") But let's go with that. If 100 years is no longer imminent but soon, and we've been saying Christ is coming back for over 100 years, would it not seem reasonable to change the wording from imminent to soon?

However, I say the words mean basically the same, and for sure it's not the downfall of the church. I'm sorry, but people lose credibility for me when they do things like that.

imminent
Adjective
about to happen, occur, or take place very soon, especially of something which won't last long.

soon
Adjective
Short in length of time from the present.
I need the soonest date you have available.

Kland, I was reading a post on twitter and happened upon this:

"...taking time and resources from an individual facing imminent threat of torture and/or death somewhere in the world."

If we replace "imminent" with "soon", we get this:

"...taking time and resources from an individual facing soon threat of torture and/or death somewhere in the world."

While "imminent" and "soon" may have somewhat similar meanings, the connotations are far different. "Soon" registers as relaxed, even lackadaisical: your food will be here soon; this movie is coming soon...
Whereas, "imminent" invokes a solemn sense of immediacy, urgency, uncertainty, even peril! If there is any concept that must be clearly communicated by our church it is the urgent necessity of preparing for the coming of our Lord. Isn’t that why we are called Adventists?

I agree with David Gates, this statement has definitely been watered down.
While, this may not signify the downfall of our church, it is indicative of a disturbing trend:
one small compromise may just lead to death by a thousand cuts.

YES - let's scare everyone we can! Probation is closing April, 2019! Well, maybe. Have you read the comments on David Gate's video on YouTube? Some are panicking? WHY? WHY is the shortness or imminent coming terrors of the last days being used as the motivating factor? I may be dead this afternoon from earthquake, murder, or other disaster. You may be. How effective is that at motivating people?

Besides it does not seem a proper way to win souls to Jesus, by appealing to one of the lowest attributes of the mind, abject fear. The love of Jesus attracts, it will subdue the hardest heart.’ {LS80 171.2}
 
The shortness of time is frequently urged as an incentive for seeking righteousness and making Christ our friend. This should not be the great motive with us; for it savours of selfishness. Is it necessary that the terrors of the day of God should be held before us, that we may be compelled to right action through fear? It ought not to be so. Jesus is attractive. He is full of love, mercy, and compassion. He proposes to be our friend, to walk with us through all the rough pathways of life. {BEcho, June 25, 1894 par. 7}
 
And this from the Testimonies, you should read the whole section:
 
Those who think they must preach definite time in order to make an impression upon the people do not work from the right standpoint. The feelings of the people may be stirred and their fears aroused, but they do not move from principle. An excitement is created; but when the time passes, as it has done repeatedly, those who moved out upon time fall back into coldness, darkness, and sin, and it is almost impossible to arouse their consciences without some great excitement. {4T 308.1}
 
Is David Gates following the Testimonies on this point?

Here's a thought: Where was the REJOICING when a practicing SINNER came to Jesus?

Oh Wait!! Sorry, ProdigalOne, I'm being negative again. You surely don't want THAT opinion.

ProdigalOne,
In light of what you just said, what would you say in regards to it's been 100 years now, a period of time Gates mentioned as being "soon"?

And regarding what APL said, although Gates did say he wasn't setting a date, (then proceeded to say maybe), when nothing happens this spring, what will others conclude about Adventists, about Gates?

JAK, what was the message Jesus gave to that sinner? Sin no more?

My Apologies! I didn't realize I was addressing people who no longer sin! My bad.

Prodigal, you've likely seen my endorsement of Gate's overall message. But to answer your questions about why there was no urgency or alarm over the Church's sins of commission or omission but there is a strong reaction globally over a simple 1 hour and 20 minute message by a single unpaid minister, to me that's a good sign that God is speaking to us through him. It fits the Biblical pattern: God's messengers get the attention of God's people. True, false prophets sometimes get widespread attention as well. But Gate's message is the opposite of their peace and safety refrain.

I'm grateful to God for this gracious call to us. I'm cheered and invigorated by the message. Some here think this is fear mongering but the John the Beloved who wrote the most fearful prophecies in the Bible was the calmest and most hopeful. He closes the Revelation with the words, "Amen, even so, Maranatha, or come Lord Jesus". Those who are abiding in Christ will be full of loving anticipation at the thought that soon we'll be with Him, our Brother, Friend, and great God and King for ever.

Who loves to fly. That is not cheap. The fact that he speaks not according to EGW makes you think he speaks for God. So why can't we say as John, even so come Lord Jesus, and hurry up, probation closes in April. Fearmongering - NOW is the day to get ready. NOW is the time to know the Lord as He really is. What not preach the Good News? THAT is the solution.

That is the heart of the gospel JAK - that Christ will empower us to do what He has promised which is to deliver us from sin. "Sin no more" is a direct command from God but it is also one of the greatest promises of scripture.

Ok, I finished listening to Gates. He seemed to go to great lengths in defending his message. He comes across like His Child saying that people don't have to listen to him, but they may be lost. Quite a bit of, this may not happen, but he believes it will and everyone who is faithful will believe it. A "better safe than sorry" message.

While I admit I have a tendency to do it myself and I try not to, why is it so many people are so anxious for an apocalypse? Why is it people what to see others hurt? Some sort of, I'm good and others aren't and they are going to pay. Rather than looking forward to death, destruction, and harm to others, why are they not taking a position of hold, hold, hold, for there are many who would be lost if not given enough time?

Some may argue we want this life end soon. If we were to give the good news of the gospel, rather than the news of destruction, would not Christ come?

You may think that if it suits you.
I believe the core of the gospel is the good news that the creator God reached out to fallen humanity and provided a way of escape. This way of escape is provided only through the grace of God. We are saved by Grace through Faith. Which means we are saved only by the Grace of God, accessed through Faith in the blood of Jesus.

So what if we stop sinning. Good. Are we now saved? That would mean that I can save myself--just stop sinning! Sinning or not sinning does not change the fact that we are sinners, have sinned, and will continue to sin. Good behavior will not save. Only Grace, through Faith.

While it is true that God promises to empower us to stop sinning, that is not the good new of the gospel. That is completely secondary to the fact that He has provided a way out, through His grace, freely available to everyone through Faith.

So JAK, could you explain what you think Jesus meant by saying,

Joh 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

The "heart of the gospel" - hm. The 1AM says: Rev_14:6-7 And I saw another angel fly in the middle of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, (7) Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
 
So, the gospel has always been true, so in much greater that just our salvation, which is a consequence of the true Gospel which is about the Character of God. It is because of God's Character which makes salvation possible. And the salvation of this planet is a small part of the whole plan of salvation. LOST from David Gate's talk is the real Gospel.
 
But the plan of redemption had a yet broader and deeper purpose than the salvation of man. It was not for this alone that Christ came to the earth; it was not merely that the inhabitants of this little world might regard the law of God as it should be regarded; but it was to vindicate the character of God before the universe. To this result of His great sacrifice--its influence upon the intelligences of other worlds, as well as upon man--the Saviour looked forward when just before His crucifixion He said: "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all unto Me." John 12:31-32. The act of Christ in dying for the salvation of man would not only make heaven accessible to men, but before all the universe it would justify God and His Son in their dealing with the rebellion of Satan. It would establish the perpetuity of the law of God and would reveal the nature and the results of sin. {PP 68.2}

Just what he said: "Sin no more." There is no explaining to do. And YES, he will help us do that with His in-dwelling Spirit.

BUT

To say, as Charity claims:


that empowering us to not sin is the heartbeat of the gospel, is simply wrong, and lacks an understanding of God's character and Christ's mission. The heartbeat of the gospel is, as I've said, that God reached out to humans and provided a way of escaped, which we could not do ourselves.

Furthermore:
1. Why would Christ empower US to do what HE has promised to do?
2. "Go and sin no more." is a command. I don't see any "promise" here.

About empowerment, we do the willing and the doing, Christ supplies the power.

"Go and sin no more" is like "pray in faith without doubting", also a command but since these are the words of God, they are backed by Divine power and authority. It's our privilege to not only believe them but also to set our wills to perform them and if we do the biddings of God become enablings.

Ezekiel 36:25-27 Then will I sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. (26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. (27) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my judgments, and do them.

So just for clarity, Charity (and kland and APL) you guys are living lives of sinless perfection?

Because if you're not...
You are breaking a direct command from God. (Charity's words). And if "his commands are enablings," where is this enabling?
If "we do the willing and the doing, [and] Christ supplies the power." and you're still sinning...does that mean you are not willing? or doing? or is Christ not supplying the power?
So if the heart of your gospel is based on YOU not sinning...you're in trouble.

Have you never read Phil.1:6 "being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." IMO Jesus BEGAN the work and Jesus will COMPLETE the work.

CHRIST begins the work and CHRIST completes the work. YOU---have faith.

To be sure, there is a component of overcoming and not sinning, but it sure as hell* ain't the "heart of the gospel."

* used intentionally

Signed: JAK the Troll

The silence here is deafening, and I suspect it is because all of you know you are not living perfect lives, and yet you condemn a "practicing lesbian" for being baptized.
I do not claim any kind of perfection, nor to be your judges, but the <***STAFF EDIT***> HYPOCRACY here disgusts me.
To condemn a sinner for coming to Christ is just unbelievable.
And I expect any replies to perfectly exude the character and love of Christ, because YOU ALL have achieved perfection in this life.

David Gates made a reply video to answer objections to his Even At The Door message. He said that he was being accused of date setting. He pointed out that every mention of date setting by Sister White referred to setting a date for Christ’s return. He has set no such date, and is merely one who is "in faith and holy hope... tracing down the roll of fast-fulfilling prophecy and... seeking to purify their souls by obeying the truth."

"God has a people upon the earth who in faith and holy hope are tracing down the roll of fast-fulfilling prophecy and are seeking to purify their souls by obeying the truth, that they may not be found without the wedding garment when Christ shall appear. 4T 306.3
Many who have called themselves Adventists have been time setters. Time after time has been set for Christ to come, but repeated failures have been the result." 4T 306.4

You say that he is spreading fear? Does the watchman on the wall spread fear when he spies danger rapidly approaching and performs his sacred duty by raising the alarm? Perhaps, he does; however, this is not because of a desire to frighten, but to galvanize God’s people, to rouse them from sleep, to warn that the time to seek God is shorter than it has ever been.

David Gates does not appear to be recruiting new church members. In fact, he has decried the practice of some South American churches that "baptize" thousands of people at once, without grounding them in the truth. To the contrary, he is warning those in the church who are asleep that the time is short. Today is the day we must fill our lamps, purify our souls, and seek God with all our hearts!

I am still seeking the truth concerning the veracity of his message, but I must say that so far, I see only a humble soul, who to his own harm, is faithfully labouring against the will of bureaucrats and legions of church members who long for smooth words that will allow them to continue to sleep.

It is true that we come to Jesus just as we are. It is also true that baptism is a sign of repentance. The sinner dies to her sin and is reborn as a child who seeks the Light. Yes, we should definitely rejoice when a practicing sinner comes to Jesus. But, baptism is an outward sign of an inward change. No one should be baptized who has not repented of sin. Baptizing an unrepentant sinner is claiming that there is no such thing as sin, and no need to die to it!

When the woman caught in adultery was brought to Jesus, he said: “Go and sin no more”...

JAK, I can see that you have been hurt. I have no wish to add to your pain. If you need to vent your frustrations here, I have no objection. Please, forgive me if I am not always as patient as I should be. God is still working on me too.

Firstly, when considered on a 6000 year scale, 100 years is a drop in the bucket.
Secondly, didn’t Sister White say something to the effect that if the church had faithfully given the Midnight Cry, that Jesus would have already returned? That sounds “imminent” to me.

Do you believe that Jesus will delay His coming for another 100 years? Is it possible that He will come within the next year? 2 years? 5 years? How long should we wait, before we give the warning that His coming is “near, even at the door”? Is it possible that, as with the Midnight Cry spoken of by Sister White, God is waiting for us to step out in faith?

As for what others will think about Adventists if nothing happens this spring, the message of David Gates is not for others. It is for the church. He is warning us to get ready, put on our wedding garments, put away our sins, and seek God. Most of the people I have seen and spoken to who had a bad view of Adventism were not turned off because of date setting. They were driven away by the sins, hypocrisy, and bickering of Adventists! I know this from bitter personal experience, my own as well as that of people I love.

If we truly desire to attract non-Christians and those in other folds to the Adventist message, then we would be well advised to start living that message, put away fruitless disputes, purify our characters, and seek the good of our brothers and sisters above our own. This is what David Gates has said is the focus of his message.

So, Jesus told her to do something that was impossible?

I am still examining Gate’s message. His follow up videos are quite helpful. He is such an incredibly humble soul. He mentions in passing old friends that disagree with him, but whom he still respects and cares for. Only in other videos by some of his supporters, do we find out how he has been abandoned and betrayed by these “old friends”. Still, Gates condemns no one. Is this not a manifestation of the Spirit of God? “By their fruits you shall know them.” Whatever conclusions I draw from his message, I have no doubt that this man is seeking to follow God!

You seem to presume to know her motives and condition of her heart. How do YOU know she WAS NOT repentant? The "inward change" is not an immediate and complete change in behavior etc. but a change in the focus of ones life. When you were baptized did you suddenly stop sinning? Be careful because I know the answer to that one:Why do you beg for forgiveness but deny it to the lesbian? Is God not still working with the lesbian, too?

I don't know, ProdigalOne. How's that working out for YOU?

It's not the one's who are engaged in celebration style, or who have left the fundamental doctrines of the church and are preaching a "peace and safety" message who have expressed a warning against Gate's message.

It is men who ARE preaching the signs of a soon coming Savior, and who ARE urging us to prepare!

Why are they concerned? Because what Gates is doing to the prophecies is WEAKENING the foundations of Adventist prophetic understanding. Something that is very important to the three angel's message.

All those who take the foundational time prophecies and "reapply" them and change them to mean something different so they will fit a "new time line" are undermining the very foundation of the message, even if they do so in the name of preaching the three angel's message.

It's sort of like taking the foundational timbers out from under a house to build an upper room, thinking they are building something better, when in actuality they are destroying the building.



Yes, we need to put away sins -- our pride, selfishness, etc. etc. The church needs to be a place where true Christian edifying love is displayed, all that is VERY important, but it's not done by undermining the prophetic foundation of the message.

I truly wish David Gates had not gone against EGW's counsel and based his message on "time setting". It was this that destroyed his credibility before. Why do it again? It would be much better to simply stick with the MESSAGE which we are told is powerful enough without trying to link it to time. Linking it to time WEAKENS it in the long run.

If Christ could have returned in the late 1800's, then setting the time of the Pope's visit as meaningful is obscuring the truth. Now is the time to know the Lord.
Could you die tonight? Why worry about the future times, now is the time.
Really? Will "others" want to join a fanatical cult?
Is the close of probation April 2019 part of the Adventist message? Nope.

I am not judging the lesbian woman. I am saying that the leadership that chose to baptize her when she had not repented of blatant sin, did wrong by permitting a baptism that she was not ready for.

The beam in my own eye is something I battle with constantly. Sometimes I overcome, sometimes I lose, but by the grace of God, I always stand back up and continue the fight. Does that mean I must close my eyes, shun the gift of discernment, and refuse to call out sin, particularly in the direction of church policy? Paul said that he was the chief of sinners; yet, he did not hesitate to call out sin when he saw it! Hypocrisy is accusing others while claiming to have no faults.

I have many faults, too many. That does not make it right to baptize an unrepentant lesbian.

You bring up some good points, dedication. Gates has stated that he is not trying to set a date for Christ’s return. I would like to hear his response to the close of probation quote from Ellen White.

I’m not sure I understand your point about the pope and obscuring the truth?

"Why worry about the future times"? Why is the church called Seventh Day Adventist?

Stepping out in faith is always a risk. Being called crazy or fanatical, should not deter us from following what we believe to be true.

Didn’t Ellen White say there was more knowledge to be revealed before the end?

But not "soon"?

What the rest you say is all good and all, but we were talking the so called big deal about changing "imminent" with "soon". Question: Did Gates use "100 years" in reference to implying "soon"?

JAK,
Do you think the woman Jesus was addressing had a desire to stop sinning?
Do you think the lesbian had a desire to stop sinning.

Now how the hell would I know that, kland?

I cannot believe you and ProdigalOne keep defending your judgemental and hypocritical position re: baptizing the lesbian woman.

Actually, let me rephrase that: I have actually come to expect nothing else from you.

I plead Rule #57 on BOTH of you.

It's pretty clear both of you see the church as a country club for saints rather than a hospital for sinners.

Hospitals are in the business of HEALING sinners. And just like hospitals, doctors and nurses only aid the healing process, God does the healing, if we let Him. Unfortunately, many who should be aiding the process are actually hindering...

I asked, what do you think.
You answered, how would you know.

A sorry situation to be in....

If a smoker comes in to the hospital complaining about his lungs or some other serious condition, do you think the doctor is in the wrong for refusing to treat him if the smoker sees no problem with his smoking, nor have any desire to even try to quit or even to attempt to reduce his smoking?

Ooops, there I go again asking you what you think.
How could you possibly know what you think.

Here is the link to a written response to the video by David Gates:

https://secretsunsealed.org/content/PDF_...AreYouReady.pdf

Thanks for that link to Pastor Bohr's reply. It gives the Gates followers something to think about. True, David has raised expectations and misapplied prophecies in the past. Prime example is the two 7 seven year periods in Pharaoh's dream. It makes you wonder doesn't it how his influence keeps growing by leaps and bounds. I think the answer is 1) that the average person who is keen on seeing Christ return can see his humility and that he has a heart of gold and has proven his devotion and unselfishness. 2) God continues to miraculously bless his ministry. A few weeks ago God clearly spared his life in a plane crash where airplane fuel covered the crash site but didn't ignite.

It took Abraham (who had Sarah lie twice to save his life) several years to learn the lessons of faith God was trying to teach him. Gates is learning like all of us. He wants to be a faithful servant and give us meat in due season, and in his zeal he sometimes has read more into events and scripture than is justified. So yes, let's be cautious and take his message to the test of scripture. One thing is clear when we do that: right or wrong about the spring of 2019, the scriptures agree that Daniel 12 applies to the end in literal time. That friends is a truth whose time is come imo. And if that's so, we're near it's fulfillment or possibly already in it.

I was thinking today, what if the spring of 2019 is actually the end of the 1260 days of Daniel 12 running from the fall of 2015, and not the beginning of them? At first I was about to dismiss the idea out of hand, but the more I think about it, the more I'm constrained not to do that.

You are claiming just what Bohr is speaking against.

From secrets unsealed:

DAVID GATES AND TIME PROPHECY: What is he doing?
"There is no biblical example of events of a long symbolic apocalyptic time-period repeating in shorter, literal time. This is an unfounded conjecture.... There is no evidence that long apocalyptic time prophecies will repeat once more in shorter, literal time as if there were a reverse year/day principle!" (Elder Stephen Bohr, "A Response to David Gates: "The Door is About to Close ARE YOU READY?").
"Some will take the truth applicable to their time, and place it in the future. Events in the train of prophecy that had their fulfillment away in the past are made future, and thus by these theories the faith of some is undermined. Ms 31, 1896, p. 3. ('Testimony Concerning the Views of Prophecy Held by Brother John Bell,' November 8, 1896)" {1MR 195.2}
To the same man of that day, she also said:
"From the light that the Lord has been pleased to give me, you are in danger of doing the same work, presenting before others truths which have had their place and done their specific work for the time, in the history of the faith of the people of God. You recognize these facts in Bible history as true, but apply them to the future. They have their force still in their proper place, in the chain of events that have made us as a people what we are today, and as such they are to be presented to those who are in the darkness of error" {17MR 3.1}

I believe I have answered the question of the difference and import of "soon" and "imminent" in my previous post. It comes down to the connotations; the sense of urgency, inferred by "imminent". While, I do not claim to know precisely when Christ will return, I am 100% certain that this is not the time to water down its proximity by using a less urgent word! His return is nearer than it has ever been. We need to emphasize that fact not downplay it!

I’m not certain what "Rule 57" is? But, isn’t it a bit disingenuous of you to quote regulations, JAK? I thought you didn’t believe in rules, or at least that it is possible to obey them?

A country club is a place to play with sin by denying the power of God.

"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."
2 Timothy 3:1-5


A hospital is somewhere to acknowledge the curative power of Christ, obey His treatment plan willingly to the best of our ability, rest in His grace, and be healed of sin by the indwelling strength of His Spirit!

"And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."
2Timothy 3: 15-17

"Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."
Jude 1: 24-25