Dedication you suggest what Gates and I are saying is fanciful and a distraction. Yet Gates is spreading the Adventist message more effectively than anyone of us. He ranks with Bachelor in terms of being among the most effective evangelist within Adventism. His ministry is working in some 90 countries. Look at his fruit and consider whether you might put your hand to your mouth before you condemn yourself by condemning the Lord's servants.

You imply that we're making time a test. Neither David or I believe or say or imply that. Let's put that issue to rest and move on if possible. But first, let me ask you this because this is where I think you have issues: What did you think of my point that God consistently informs us of the duration of persecution? Was that ever a test of faith historically - the 430 years in Egypt, 70 in Babylon, 10 in the church of Smyrna, 1260 in the church in the wilderness. It wasn't then and neither is it now. Adventists who misconstrue Ellen White are themselves guilty of making their own false test claiming the authority to overrule the time periods of scripture.

But how many are willing to see the wide difference between time setting and allowing for scriptural time periods. Ellen White was able to do this but we Adventists are like the Jews that returned from captivity who were so wary of recontaminating themselves with idolatry that they instead made idols of their opinions and traditions to guard against it.

But in these days of peril we are not to accept everything that men bring to us as truth. As professed teachers from God come to us declaring that they have a message from God, it is proper to inquire carefully, How do we know that this is truth? Jesus has told us that "false prophets shall arise and shall deceive many." But we need not be deceived; for the word of God gives us a test whereby we may know what is truth. The prophet says, "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." {RH, February 23, 1892 par. 2}
 
From this statement it is evident that it becomes us to be diligent Bible students, that we may know what is according to the law and the testimony. We are safe in no other course of action. {RH, February 23, 1892 par. 3}
 
 
Those who think they must preach definite time in order to make an impression upon the people do not work from the right standpoint. The feelings of the people may be stirred and their fears aroused, but they do not move from principle. An excitement is created; but when the time passes, as it has done repeatedly, those who moved out upon time fall back into coldness, darkness, and sin, and it is almost impossible to arouse their consciences without some great excitement. {4T 308.1}
 
God has not revealed to us the time when this message will close, or when probation will have an end. Those things that are revealed we shall accept for ourselves and for our children; but let us not seek to know that which has been kept secret in the councils of the Almighty. It is our duty to watch and work and wait, to labor every moment for the souls of men that are ready to perish. We are to keep walking continually in the footsteps of Jesus, working in his lines, dispensing his gifts as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. Satan will be ready to give to any one who is not learning every day of Jesus, a special message of his own creating, in order to make of no effect the wonderful truth for this time. {RH, October 9, 1894 par. 10}
 
Letters have come to me asking me if I have any special light as to the time when probation will close; and I answer that I have only this message to bear, that it is now time to work while the day lasts, for the night cometh in which no man can work. Now, just now, it is time for us to be watching, working, and waiting. The word of the Lord reveals the fact that the end of all things is at hand, and its testimony is most decided that it is necessary for every soul to have the truth planted in the heart so that it will control the life and sanctify the character. The Spirit of the Lord is working to take the truth of the inspired word and stamp it upon the soul so that the professed followers of Christ will have a holy, sacred joy that they will be able to impart to others. The opportune time for us to work is now, just now, while the day lasts. But there is no command for any one to search the Scripture in order to ascertain, if possible, when probation will close. God has no such message for any mortal lips. He would have no mortal tongue declare that which he has hidden in his secret councils. {RH, October 9, 1894 par. 11}
 
MARK - WE NOT HAVE 4 MONTHS TO GET READY - WE ONLY HAVE TODAY.
 
The world placed all time proclamation on the same level and called it a delusion, fanaticism, and heresy. Ever since 1844 I have borne my testimony that we were now in a period of time in which we are to take heed to ourselves lest our hearts be overcharged with surfeiting and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon us unawares. Our position has been one of waiting and watching, with no time proclamation to intervene between the close of the prophetic periods in 1844 and the time of our Lord’s coming. We do not know the day nor the hour, or when the definite time is, and yet the prophetic reckoning shows us that Christ is at the door. {Lt38-1888}
 
This time, which the Angel declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world’s history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which should precede the advent of our Lord. That is, the people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844. {Ms59-1900}
 
WE CAN HASTEN THEN COMING OF THE END!
 
He has put it in our power, through co-operation with Him, to bring this scene of misery to an end. "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Matthew 24:14. {Ed 263.2}

The Feast of First fruits and Pentecost were tied to the agrarian life-style of the Hebrews. They were not forward looking (i.e. not prophetic). They were thanksgiving feasts, first for the harvest (one sheaf) and then, 50 days later, for the food of the harvest (two loaves of bread).

Jesus died on the Passover. He was lifted up between earth and heaven that whoever of the Jews (i.e. his own) looked upon him and believed should be healed. He gave his life that theirs might be spared. His blood, shed outside the city, was (as it were) smeared on the city gates. This is the very same thing that happened on the day of Pentecost, except in one crucial and significant detail. Whereas on the Passover, He was PHYSICALLY present, on the day of Pentecost, he was present again but SPIRITUALLY so. All the words spoken by the disciples were pointing to Calvary so much so that the people were "cut to the heart ... Then those who gladly received his word were baptized." Acts 2

IN OTHER WORDS, GOD USED THE EXPERIENCE AND CULTURE OF THE PEOPLE TO TEACH THEM; and not the other way around.

Jesus, to a Jew, was the Lamb, the Rock, the Latter and Former Rain, the First-fruit, the Temple (a sanctuary), the High Priest, etc., etc., etc. But YOU, yes you -- now look around you, as a Gentile (a Canadian, an American perhaps) and see whether you can see the Love of God in YOUR OWN history and life experiences. Is HE your 911 when water or fire engulfs your home? Your firefighter, doctor, lawyer, flag, the turkey on Thanksgiving? Gentiles have their own story, but they blindly, and sometimes stupidly, seek to pontificate on the Hebrew metaphors and personifications not understanding what they are saying at all.

///
 

It's true Gates has been preaching a lot of truth. I have two "books" of DVD's of his preaching, and was quite impressed with a lot of it. His early work was quite astounding and seemed energized by the Holy Spirit.

But then something began to creep in that was problematic. When he got into the "predicting time" mode -- he threw a monkey wrench into his own preaching. He would have been far more effective IF he had stayed with simply preaching the gospel and the signs all around. But, as happens sometimes after a human experiences success, he veered off course.
Was it because the initial message, which at first brought a lot of conviction, didn't seem "exciting" enough anymore?

Why did he veer away from the plain guiding statements:



Starting around 2005, Gates began to voice "rough" time setting. Like - ‘we have but a few months left before the end arrives, at the most 24 months’ or ‘we have 36 months left, and if God is willing, no more than 48.’

Yet EGW writes:


I remember listening to one of his tapes back in 2008 where he present his “final economic collapse of North America”. He was saying the American dollar was becoming worthless, Europe and other countries didn't want to take it anymore, and basically that everyone should empty their bank accounts and send the money to independent ministries to get the news out before it was too late.
Even predicting -- "a soon complete collapse of the world economy by December 2009 - caused by the U.S.
printing of money to manage its debt"

Actually, if I remember, He first predicted the collapse for 9/11/08 basing this on the Joseph story in Genesis. Seven supposedly "fat" years, would be followed by seven "lean" years. Thus starting with the 9/11/01 attack, counting seven years he came to 9/11/08.
It seems he was still stretching it on to 9/11/10.
I'm not totally clear on all his reckonings -- except that it was all NOT prophetic, but simply speculations.

True the USA was facing economic crises in 2008, but that was ten years ago now, were the next seven years "lean" in comparison? Isn't the USA dollar stronger now, it did not collapse Sept. 11,2008 nor by December 2009, nor by Sept. 11, 2010. (that's not saying it couldn't or won't sometime) but all his time predictions were false.

David Gates began losing a lot of credibility and it was all due to his persistent refusal to accept the strict counsel of EGW in regards to any type of prophetic/predictive end time time-setting.

When he realized all his economic collapse theories weren't coming true -- didn't he project Christ's coming to the year 2031? This time he was basing it on a time line reaching back to Christ's crucifixion, placing it in the Great Week in Time framework -- 4000 years from creation to Christ's death and resurrection -- 2000 years to His second coming.

It's amazing -- people draw numbers from all over the Bible to set either specific or approximate dates -- The date setting disease seems to be incurable.




God has told us the last crises will be "short" [one hour, obviously short]-- He never gave us a time prophecy, and all who have tried to lift various time frames from Bible stories or from fulfilled prophetic timelines, and pasted them into endtime speculations of how long this or that will take, or when this or that will happen, have LOST THEIR CREDIBILITY.

It is interesting that he accuses the church of rejecting the testimonies, yet when they apply to what he is doing, he ignores them.
I had cousins working in South America and strong followers of Gates. This talk of the economic collapse which interestingly did not happen as he said it would, ended my interest in his teachings, that was quite a while ago now.
Let's hope not, for Mark has been infected with it for some time.

Looking the people's comments on Gates YouTube sermon shows the fear that people have by his teaching. Motivation by fear is a false motivation, it is not true obedience.

Gates as you point out Dedication has gone too far on some of these things. He seems to be a humble man. Maybe he has already apologized. If not, he will eventually if the Lord is with him. And the Lord definitely seems to be with him. He may have lost credibility with some but apparently not with the Lord. We all say things we regret. We're all learning or should be.

A couple days ago I was talking to a friend and I said, "This is the first time in history that a nation has been able to print money for an extended period without backing it and not suffer the consequences. With our trade deficit, ballooning federal debt and reckless monetary policy it is a house of card. It can't go on indefinitely." While Gates timing was off, his concerns are valid. He assumed history would be repeated because this has never happened before. The Lord has had mercy on us who are not prepared.

It is true as well Dedication that I've asserted on this site that we can't safely ignore the time prophecies of Daniel and Revelation. Adventists who misconstrue Ellen White as prohibiting this are themselves guilty of making their own test claiming the authority to overrule the time periods of scripture and condemning their brothers who say let the end time prophecies speak.

But how many of us are willing to see the wide difference between time setting and allowing for the proper place of scriptural time periods. Ellen White was able to do this but we Adventists are like the Jews that returned from captivity who were so wary of recontaminating themselves with idolatry that they instead made idols of their opinions and traditions to guard against it. If the scriptural case for the fall of 2015 was set out fully, how many Adventists would look at it candidly? Christ knowing the condition of his own people did not belabor the point that his ministry was the fulfillment of Daniel 9. Very few were ready for that kind of investigation of the prophecies.

In the same way, clearly David knows more than what he shared. Yet his discretion in not fully sharing his knowledge is used as a justification for criticism. How wise is it to find fault with an unknown that if it were shared would be misunderstood?. Christ didn't fully explain the seventy weeks to the disciples at the start of His ministry. But He gave them enough evidence to make an intelligent decision that the Messiah had come. In the same way, when Christ stands up and begins the judgment of the living we can expect most people to miss it and it will not be until the out pouring of the Spirit that God's people will realize more accurately where they are prophetically.

I'm not saying categorically that David is right. I'm saying it would be wise for us to prayerfully consider the real possibility that this is a divine call for preparation like the Lord instructed the disciples to do before Pentecost. We're admonished that the Lord will do nothing without revealing it to his servants the prophets. And we should bear in mind that according to the SOP we don't understand the mark of the beast fully nor will we until the scroll is unrolled.

Remember, the majority of Adventists will be like chaff in the wind when the test comes. One likely reason is that many of us will not recognize the mark for what it is and so excuse ourselves and justify our own course. We'll know soon enough if David is right, but how many will recognize it if he is? When Christ was crucified and hanging on the cross how many understood that they were witnessing the death of the Son of God?

One more plea: Please consider friends the possibility that the warning in Daniel 12 that Ellen White says we need to understand is a warning of 3.5 years of persecution in the near future, possibly starting this spring, possibly sooner, possibly later.

Inspiration tells us that what seems right to a man may be the ways of death, and that we are not to put our trust in the arm of flesh, nor the wisdom (foolishness) of man. Mrs. White addresses the apparent success of a man thusly:




Charity, my plea to you is this: Reach out to those within your circle of influence, teaching the Third Angel's message while omitting the chaff of time-setting. As the Bible clearly points out, the day of decision is always "today." That's much sooner, and therefore more impressive, than next spring, next year, or 3.5 years from now.

Furthermore, how many people will join God's ranks by hearing about the persecution that will come to them in doing so? I would plead with you to drop this out of your message. It strengthens no one. What Adventist, even a staunch, lifelong, vegan-to-the-core, died-in-the-wool, fifth-generation, Ellen-White-believing one, would be encouraged by talk of persecution? While we know it will happen, it is not the message we are to carry to the world. The message of the Third Angel is that of keeping God's commandments. His law should be our focus. We look to Him, not to our persecutors, for help (see Ps. 121).

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Green, I agree 100%.