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Re: Multiple Church Districts #18798
08/08/00 12:57 PM
08/08/00 12:57 PM
Daryl  Online Canadian

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,121
Nova Scotia, Canada
I like the video taping of our pastor idea except it would add to the inactivity of the lay members.

I still think the lay pastor idea is a better option to think about.

In our local church there are several of us that take turns preaching when our pastor is elsewhere. I also lead out in the Prayer Meetings and our Bible study type meetings whenever the pastor is elsewhere. This is the way to keep the lay members more active.

It's the area of member and other type visitation in the home or in the hospital that we are still weak on as lay members. I must add, however, that we have two lay members in our church who have the same status as our pastor to visit our members in the hospital. The only requirement was that they be authorized by our church and pastor and take the same training as the pastors.

That still leaves the visitation of our own members by other authorized lay members for us to work on.

------------------
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl Fawcett :)


Re: Multiple Church Districts #18799
08/08/00 05:36 PM
08/08/00 05:36 PM
A
Anonymous OP
Unregistered

-

[This message has been edited by Joan Rügemer (edited January 16, 2001).]


Re: Multiple Church Districts #18800
08/09/00 04:53 PM
08/09/00 04:53 PM
Gerry Buck  Offline
Charter Member
Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,859
Benton Harbor, Mi.
Our new pastor is planning on running a class to help the lay preachers to put a sermon together and how to present it.

Instead of overworking our pastors, we should be teaching our laity to do more.

------------------
Is what you're living for worth Christ dying for?

Gerry B.


Re: Multiple Church Districts #18801
08/10/00 05:40 AM
08/10/00 05:40 AM
A
Anonymous OP
Unregistered

We had an excellent "Preaching Tips for the Laity" seminar put on by the Ontario Conference. It really refreshed my thinking too. Reports are that my elder's sermons are a whole lot more "tolerable" now.

Last week I ran a tape of John Nixon from the GC Session. It got rave reviews. I've never had so many people thank me for just "selecting" talent.

Fortunately a large bat that flew around the church during Sabbath School was caught before that Divine service.

------------------
"He Restoreth My Soul"

Pastor Andrew


Re: Multiple Church Districts #18802
08/10/00 05:27 PM
08/10/00 05:27 PM
C
Catherine  Offline
Charter Member
Veteran Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 881
Michigan, USA
God told us through Sister White that it is not good for the church to have a pastor hovering over it, and that we should not expect to have a sermon every week. Most of our services should be testimony services, not preaching services.

------------------
The Lord is the strength of my life and my portion forever.


Re: Multiple Church Districts #18803
08/10/00 06:03 PM
08/10/00 06:03 PM
Daryl  Online Canadian

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,121
Nova Scotia, Canada
Sister Cathy,

Can you give us a reference where Ellen White says that as it is always nice to back up a post like this with a quote.

------------------
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl Fawcett

[This message has been edited by Daryl Fawcett (edited August 10, 2000).]


Re: Multiple Church Districts #18804
08/11/00 10:54 AM
08/11/00 10:54 AM
A
Anonymous OP
Unregistered

Historical Sketches p-139
"Do not, my ministering brethren, allow yourselves to be kept at home to serve tables; and do not hover around the churches, preaching to those who are already fully established in the faith. Teach the people to have light in themselves, and not to depend upon the ministers. They should have Christ as their helper, and should educate themselves to help one another, so that the minister can be free to enter new fields. An important work is to be done in the world. New fields are to be opened; and the zeal and the missionary spirit that Christ manifested are greatly needed. Oh that the power of God would set the truth home to every heart! Oh that all might see the necessity of having a living connection with God, and of knowing and doing his will from day to day!" {HS 139.1}
-------------------------------------------
Pastoral Ministry p-99-100
"Help your church understand why it should not expect the minister to wait on them.--My heart has been filled with sadness as I have looked over the field and seen the barren places. What does this mean? Who are standing
as representatives of Jesus Christ? Who feels a burden for the souls who cannot receive the truth till it is brought to them? Our ministers are hovering over the churches, as though the angel of mercy was not making efforts to save souls. {PaM 99.3}

God holds these ministers responsible for the souls of those who are in darkness. He does not call you to go into fields that need no physician. Establish your churches with the understanding that they need not expect the minister to wait upon them and to be continually feeding them. They have the truth; they know what truth is. They should have root in themselves. These should strike down deeply, that they may reach up higher and still higher. They must be rooted and grounded in the faith." EGW'88 1752. {PaM 100.1}
------------------------------------------
GCB (General Conference Bulletin April 12,1901 EGW

"I wish to tell you that soon there will be no work done in ministerial lines but medical missionary work. The work of a minister is to minister. Our ministers are to work on the gospel plan of ministering. It has been presented to me that all through America there are barren fields. As I traveled through the South on my way to the Conference, I saw city after city that was unworked. What is the matter? The ministers are hovering over churches, which know the truth, while thousands are perishing out of Christ. If the proper instruction were given, if the proper methods were followed, every church member would do his work as a member of the body. He would do Christian missionary work. But the churches are dying, and they want a minister to preach to them. They should be taught to bring a faithful tithe to God, that he may strengthen and bless them. They should be brought into working order, that the breath of God may come to them. They should be taught that unless they can stand alone, without a minister, they need to be converted anew, and baptized anew. They need to be born again. {GCB, April 12, 1901 par. 21}

"The barren fields in America have been presented to me. In every city in Michigan there should be a monument erected for God. You have been long in the truth. Had you carried the work forward in the lines in which God intended you to, had you done medical missionary work, trying to heal soul and body, you would have seen hundreds and thousands coming into the truth. But this will not be seen while you crowd into Battle Creek, leaving unworked the places which should have the truth. The Lord has said to his people; "Get out of Battle Creek. Work for souls ready to perish," and they should get out of Battle Creek. Go to places where the people have not heard the truth, and live before them the gospel of Jesus Christ. Do among them practical missionary work. Thus many souls will be brought to a knowledge of the truth. {GCB, April 12, 1901 par. 22}

"You will never be ministers after the gospel order till you show a decided interest in medical missionary work, the gospel of healing and blessing and strengthening. Come up to the help of the Lord, to the help of the Lord against the mighty powers of darkness, that it be not said of you. "Curse ye Meroz, curse ye bitterly the inhabitants thereof; because they came not to the help of the Lord." {GCB, April 12, 1901 par. 23}

"I was troubled before leaving California. I did not want to come to Battle Creek. I was afraid the burdens I would have to bear would cost my life. I knew that every church in Michigan needs the sanctification of the Spirit of God. I knew that the ministers laboring with those who know the truth, tending them like sick sheep, should be out in the field, planting the standard of truth in new places, bringing the sick to their houses, and clothing the naked. Christ says that his righteousness will go before those who do this work, and that the glory of God will be their rereward, But this work is not done by our churches, and the ministers are preaching to those who know the truth, when there are thousands who know nothing of the third angel's message. {GCB, April 12, 1901 par. 24}
-------------------------------------------
Pacific Union Recorder April 24, 1902

God's Power to Fit Men for Service

"Our large cities are fast reaching the condition of the world before the flood, when "God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." God-dishonoring sins are practised by people living in lordly homes; but some of these very people, under the preaching of the last testing message, will be convicted and converted. From His inexhaustible store of grace, God can endow all who come to Him. Looking upon humanity, fallen and degraded, He declares that the Holy Spirit shall be poured out upon all flesh. Many who have never heard the special truths for this time will feel the conviction of the Spirit as they listen to the message of startling importance. {PUR, April 24, 1902 par. 1}

"In our large cities the message is to go forth as a lamp that burneth. God will raise up laborers for this work, and His angels will go before them. Let no one hinder these men of God's appointment. Forbid them not. God has given them their work. Let the message be given with so much power that the hearers shall be convinced. God will raise up workers who will occupy peculiar spheres of influence, workers who will carry the truth to the most unpromising places. Men will say, "Yea," where once they said, "Nay." Some who were once enemies will become valuable helpers, advancing the work with their means and their influence. {PUR, April 24, 1902 par. 2}

"With intense earnestness God is looking on this world. He has noted the capacity of human beings for service. Looking down the ages, He has counted His workers, both men and women, and has prepared the way before them, saying: "I will send My messengers to them, and they shall see great light shining amid the darkness. Won to the service of Christ, they will use to the glory of My name the talents intrusted to them. They will go forth to work for Me with zeal and devotion. Through their efforts the truth will speak to thousands in a most forcible manner, and men spiritually blind shall receive sight, and shall see My salvation. Truth will be made so prominent that he who runs may read. Means will be devised to reach hearts. Some of the methods used in this work will be different from the methods used in the work in the past; but let no one, because of this, block the way by criticism." {PUR, April 24, 1902 par. 3}

"God will set in operation many plans for the accomplishment of His work. The means that He has intrusted to wealthy men will be used to sustain His cause. His people will concentrate their forces more and more directly on the great consummation, believing and obeying the commission:-- {PUR, April 24, 1902 par. 4}

"All power is given unto Me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you; and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world." So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, He was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following." {PUR, April 24, 1902 par. 5}

"Oh, what a work there is before us! Our ministers are not to hover over those who have received the message. With Christ's love burning in their hearts, they are to go forth to win sinners to the Saviour. Beside all waters God's messengers are to sow the seeds of truth. Place after place is to be visited; church after church is to be raised up. Those who take their stand for the truth are to be organized into churches, and then the minister is to pass on to other equally important fields. {PUR, April 24, 1902 par. 6}
Just as soon as a church is organized, let the minister set the members to work. The newly-formed churches will need to be educated. The minister should devote more of his time to educating than to preaching. He should teach the people how to extend the knowledge of the truth. While the new converts should be taught to ask counsel of those more experienced in the work, they should also be taught not to put ministers in the place of God. Ministers are not gods, but human beings, men compassed with infirmities. Christ is the One to whom all are to look for guidance. "The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only-begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth. . . . And of His fulness have all we received, and grace for grace." "As many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name." {PUR, April 24, 1902 par. 7}

The power of the gospel is to come upon the companies raised up, fitting them for service. Some of the new converts will be so filled with the power of God that they will at once enter the work, imparting that which they have received. They will labor so diligently that they will have neither time nor disposition to weaken the hands of their brethren by unkind criticism. Their one desire will be to carry the message of truth to the regions beyond.
Mrs. E. G. White.
----------------------------------------

Review & Herald Periodical Articles

"The Lord's vineyard is a more extensive one than the present working force is able properly to cultivate. Therefore it is necessary that every one should labor to the full extent of his ability. Whosoever refuses to do this, dishonors the Lord of the vineyard, and if he continues inactive, the Lord will disown him. As the human agent endeavors to labor, God works in him and by him. When the Lord sees that little real effort for the conversion of souls is put forth in regions beyond, when he sees that golden opportunities are lost, and that the spiritual physician is devoting his energy and skill to those who are whole, neglecting the maladies of those who are ready to die, he is not pleased. He cannot pronounce the "well done" upon such work; for it is not hastening but hindering the progress of his cause, when rapid advancement is most necessary. Time and energy and means are devoted to those who know the truth, instead of being used to enlighten the ignorant. Our churches are being tended as though they were sick lambs by those who should be seeking for the lost sheep. If our people would minister to other souls who need their help, they would themselves be ministered unto by the Chief Shepherd, and thousands would be rejoicing in the fold who are now wandering in the desert. Instead of hovering over our people, let every soul go to work to seek and to save the lost. Let every soul labor, not in visiting among our churches, but in visiting the dark places of the earth where there are no churches. {RH, June 25, 1895 par. 6}

In places where the standard of truth has never been lifted, more souls will be converted as a result of the same amount of work than ever before. The Lord Jesus has all power in heaven and in earth. If you will draw upon it, combining the strength of Heaven with your own, precious souls will be converted. The presence of the Holy Spirit is vouchsafed to all. Christ, our Mediator, renews our strength by the power of his presence. Every agency is to be set in operation, not to work for the churches, but to work for those who are in the darkness of error. When souls are converted, set them to work at once. And as they labor according to their ability, they will grow stronger. It is by meeting opposing influences that we become confirmed in the faith. As the light shines into their hearts, let them diffuse its rays. Teach the newly converted that they are to enter into fellowship with Christ, to be his witnesses, and to make him known unto the world. None should be forward to enter into controversy, but they should tell the simple story of the love of Jesus. All should constantly search the Scriptures for the reason of their faith, so that, if asked, they may give "a reason of the hope that is in them, with meekness and fear." The best medicine you can give the church is not preaching or sermonizing, but planning work for them. If set to work, the despondent would soon forget their despondency, the weak would become strong, the ignorant intelligent, and all would be prepared to present the truth as it is in Jesus. They would find an unfailing helper in him who has promised to save all who come unto him.
(Concluded next week.)

--------------------------------------------
Sermons and Talks vol 2

Will our ministers remember that it is not the particular duty of a minister of the gospel to hover over the churches. Those who do not labor for the salvation of others will soon lose their own confidence in God. All who profess to understand the plan of salvation have a special work to do for those around them, ever to be ready to speak a word in season to them that are ready to perish. If it is your desire to honor and glorify, not yourself, but God, He will give you a work to do that will result in the salvation of souls. But you yourselves must be in right relation with God before you can lead others to Him. You must have a humility that God can accept. Then He will be able to impress your mind, and give you a fitness for His service. {2SAT 302.1}

-------------------------------------------

It looks like Cathy didn't tell the half of it. Here are enough inspired quotes to look up.

------------------
Edward F. Sutton


Re: Multiple Church Districts #18805
08/11/00 11:11 AM
08/11/00 11:11 AM
A
Anonymous OP
Unregistered

My mother-in-law, who is not SDA, has a good phrase for this "reliance on a pastor."

She says that Ephesians 6 tells believers to "put on the whole armour of God." This is the only way that Christians can stand the assaults of the devil.

What do some church members do now when they are struggling? They call the pastor!

There is no way that payed clergy can be there for everyone.

In Sabbath School, I've heard it said many times that a church's main job is to "shepherd" the members. Again my question is, "who taught these people?" Some want us to visit every home, discern the need, and feed the sheep. This is a good theory, but if that is the primary purpose of the church--to watch as the pastor and elders keep plates (people's Spirital, emotional, etc. lives) twirling on sticks at a Chinese circus by tending to them regularly, you'll get a lot of broken vessels!

------------------
"He Restoreth My Soul"

Pastor Andrew


Re: Multiple Church Districts #18806
08/11/00 11:36 AM
08/11/00 11:36 AM
C
Catherine  Offline
Charter Member
Veteran Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 881
Michigan, USA
Thanks for supplying the quotes Ed. I simply do not have time to look up everything. Forum participation is very low on my list of priorities, and I have very little time to devote to it. Besides this, I do not have the Index to the Writings of Ellen White, so the only way I can find anything is to take down the books, one by one, and go through the index of each one, trying to figure out what to look under to find what I want.

[This message has been edited by Cathy Sears (edited August 11, 2000).]


Re: Multiple Church Districts #18807
08/11/00 01:11 PM
08/11/00 01:11 PM
Daryl  Online Canadian

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,121
Nova Scotia, Canada
Thank you Sister Cathy for your post and thank you also, Brother Ed, for posting those quotes to back up Sister Cathy's post.

That's why we are in a forum where we can do things together. It's also one of the functions of a moderator to help out wherever possible which Brother Ed did in this case. He's not even a moderator of this particular forum.

This strenghtens my concerns about those who feel the church can't survive without a pastor's weekly presence. If the church can't survive without the weekly presence of a pastor, then we had better reach the place where we can survive without the weekly presence of a pastor or watch out!

------------------
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl Fawcett

[This message has been edited by Daryl Fawcett (edited August 11, 2000).]


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