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Re: God is wrapping it up! [Re: His child] #189057
04/09/19 07:24 PM
04/09/19 07:24 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Nadi, I am willing to work to understand. Thank you for being willing to help.

Originally Posted By: Nadi
The fruit of saving faith is not "our behavior changes slowly and imperfectly," rather the fruit is "a desire to lead a life acceptable to God." . . . On the other hand, God accepts as sufficient our desire to live a holy life, even though we may not actually BE living a holy life. His grace makes up for our shortfall as long as we continue to seek Him.

Please help me understand your thoughts on the relationship between faith and fruit as it pertains to
1) the desire to live in harmony with God's will as opposed to
2) actually doing it, literally living in harmony with God's will.
3) Is a desire (willingness, preference, intention, etc) to obey (while failing to obey) a fruit of faith?
4) Does Jesus promise to empower us to continuously live in harmony with God's will?


Originally Posted By: Nadi
3) and, what does Jesus mean when He speaks of judgment, reward, and punishment?

I haven't gotten to that part yet.

I realize you are currently working on a response to this question.

Re: God is wrapping it up! [Re: His child] #189060
04/09/19 08:11 PM
04/09/19 08:11 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: His Child
If no one is sealed before the MOB how would God pour out His Holy Spirit to finish the work? Just as the judgment of the people before Christ Comes, the sealing has to precede the out pouring of the Holy Spirit.

Are you referring to the Latter Rain when you say "the out pouring of the Holy Spirit"? If so, pleases help me understand the timing of the following events:

Quote:
The great issue so near at hand [enforcement of Sunday laws] will weed out those whom God has not appointed and He will have a pure, true, sanctified ministry prepared for the latter rain.—Selected Messages 3:385 (1886). LDE 179.2

It is left with us to remedy the defects in our characters, to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement. Then the latter rain will fall upon us as the early rain fell upon the disciples on the Day of Pentecost.—Testimonies for the Church 5:214 (1882). LDE 192.3

An angel returning from the earth announces that his work is done; the final test has been brought upon the world, and all who have proved themselves loyal to the divine precepts have received “the seal of the living God.” Then Jesus ceases His intercession in the sanctuary above. He lifts His hands, and with a loud voice says, “It is done.”—The Great Controversy, 613 (1911). LDE 229.3

During the little time of trouble, as Sunday Laws increase in intensity (the MOB crisis), the SDA Family will suffer the Shaking. Unsanctified members will be sifted and shaken out leaving a sanctified, purified Church which, in turn, receives the Latter Rain, which empowers them to proclaim the 3AM more effectively causing the message to swell into the Loud Cry. During this time, many sanctified, purified members will suffer persecution, imprisonment, and death. Which clearly means they were not numbered and sealed in the forehead with the Seal of the Living God.

Seems to me Jesus numbers and seals sanctified members after they demonstrate their commitment and loyalty during the MOB crisis. In other words, they are numbered and sealed after they pass the MOB test. Then they receive the LR and are thereby empowered to proclaim the 3AM more effectively and fortified thereby to stand faithfully through JTOT.

Re: God is wrapping it up! [Re: Mountain Man] #189062
04/09/19 08:26 PM
04/09/19 08:26 PM
N
Nadi  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Please help me understand your thoughts on the relationship between faith and fruit as it pertains to
1) the desire to live in harmony with God's will as opposed to
2) actually doing it, literally living in harmony with God's will.
Both the desire and the doing are prompted by the Holy Spirit. However, humans are weak, and do not always do what they know they should (or want to) do. Paul says this in Romans, as does C. S. Lewis in Mere Christianity.

Originally Posted By: MM
3) Is a desire (willingness, preference, intention, etc) to obey (while failing to obey) a fruit of faith?
4) Does Jesus promise to empower us to continuously live in harmony with God's will?
As in the above answer, both the desire and the faith come from God through the Holy Spirit. One is not the result of the other. The desire is from the HS, but the failing is just us. God does "promise to empower us to continuously live in harmony with God's will" but he also knows that we must grow before we can do that perfectly. Therefore He knows we will fail, and expects it. This is not meaning expects in that he wants us to fail, just that he knows we will. However, at all times, whether succeeding or failing, even desiring or not desiring, once we have committed our lives to Christ and accepted his salvation, we remain in the grace of God. This point is critical, as it allows us to grow in God's grace without fear of failure or rejection because we don't measure up. "God is patient with us, not willing that any should perish, but all come to repentance." Sometimes, we take a long time to come to repentance.


Originally Posted By: MM
3) and, what does Jesus mean when He speaks of judgment, reward, and punishment?
In my understanding this is an unrelated subject, and I would like to pursue the current discussion before engaging in this one.


"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
Re: God is wrapping it up! [Re: His child] #189081
04/10/19 01:31 PM
04/10/19 01:31 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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HC, and this passage:

"This is the test that the people of God must have before they are sealed. All who prove their loyalty to God by observing His law, and refusing to accept a spurious sabbath, will rank under the banner of the Lord God Jehovah, and will receive the seal of the living God. Those who yield the truth of heavenly origin, and accept the Sunday sabbath, will receive the mark of the beast.... Mar 164.4

Re: God is wrapping it up! [Re: His child] #189082
04/10/19 01:35 PM
04/10/19 01:35 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Nadi, I think I better understand your position on faith and the fruit of faith as it concerns sinning and succeeding.

Re: God is wrapping it up! [Re: Mountain Man] #189092
04/11/19 10:56 AM
04/11/19 10:56 AM
His child  Offline OP
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,673
TN, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

Are you referring to the Latter Rain when you say "the out pouring of the Holy Spirit"? If so, pleases help me understand the timing of the following events:


Quote:
The great issue so near at hand [enforcement of Sunday laws] will weed out those whom God has not appointed and He will have a pure, true, sanctified ministry prepared for the latter rain.—Selected Messages 3:385 (1886). LDE 179.2


Notice that the enforcement of Sunday is not in Ellen Whites original quotation, it is supplemented by someone other than EGW.

Quote:
The Lord appoints and sends forth ministers not only to preach, for this is a small part of His work, but to minister, to educate the people not to be fighters but to be examples of piety. There are workers in every department appointed to do their work. When Jesus ascended on high He gave some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers. Some have entered the work with a human commission rather than the divine. They have educated themselves as debaters, and the churches under their care show the character of their work. They were not ready, they were not fitted for the work. Their hearts are not right with God. In short, they have a theory but not true conversion and sanctification through the truth. The great issue so near at hand will weed out those whom God has not appointed, and He will have a pure, true, sanctified ministry prepared for the latter rain. {12MR 327.1}


Perhaps their preparedness when the latter rain comes is the issue that will weed out those who are not prepared? "Prepare to meet thy God"

Quote:
I saw that many were neglecting the preparation so needful, and were looking to the time of "refreshing" and the "latter rain" to fit them to stand in the day of the Lord, and to live in His sight. Oh, how many I saw in the time of trouble without a shelter! They had neglected the needful preparation, therefore they could not receive the refreshing that all must have to fit them to live in the sight of a holy God. {CET 112.3}
Those who refuse to be hewed by the prophets, and fail to purify their souls in obeying the whole truth, and who are willing to believe that their condition is far better than it really is, will come up to the time of the falling of the plagues, and then see that they needed to be hewed and squared for the building. But there will be no time then to do it and no Mediator to plead their cause before the Father. Before this time the awfully solemn declaration has gone forth, "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still; and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still; and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still; and he that is holy, let him be holy still." {CET 112.4}


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: God is wrapping it up! [Re: Mountain Man] #189093
04/11/19 12:00 PM
04/11/19 12:00 PM
His child  Offline OP
SDA
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Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,673
TN, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
...Seems to me Jesus numbers and seals sanctified members after they demonstrate their commitment and loyalty during the MOB crisis. In other words, they are numbered and sealed after they pass the MOB test. Then they receive the LR and are thereby empowered to proclaim the 3AM more effectively and fortified thereby to stand faithfully through JTOT.


It seems to me that that is a reversal of the sequence. Those that receive the former rain are sealed are prepared to meet the test. You are correct that those who pass the final test are sealed. But how can we pass the test if we are not sealed. The former rain prepares us for the latter rain. Like sanctification being the work of a lifetime? Those who are justified begin the process of being sanctified?

Quote:
The latter rain, ripening earth's harvest, represents the spiritual grace that prepares the church for the coming of the Son of Man. But unless the former rain has fallen, there will be no life; the green blade will not spring up. Unless the early showers have done their work, the latter rain can bring no seed to perfection. {RH, March 2, 1897 par. 2}


Quote:
The true people of God, who have the spirit of the work of the Lord and the salvation of souls at heart, will ever view sin in its real, sinful character. They will always be on the side of faithful and plain dealing with sins which easily beset the people of God. Especially in the closing work for the church, in the sealing time of the one hundred and forty-four thousand who are to stand without fault before the throne of God, will they feel most deeply the wrongs of God's professed people. This is forcibly set forth by the prophet's illustration of the last work under the figure of the men each having a slaughter weapon in his hand. One man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side. "And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof." {3T 266.2}


Quote:
I also saw that many do not realize what they must be in order to live in the sight of the Lord without a high priest in the sanctuary through the time of trouble. Those who receive the seal of the living God and are protected in the time of trouble must reflect the image of Jesus fully. {EW 71.1}


Quote:
The enemies of God's law, from the ministers down to the least among them, have a new conception of truth and duty. Too late they see that the Sabbath of the fourth commandment is the seal of the living God. Too late they see the true nature of their spurious sabbath and the sandy foundation upon which they have been building. They find that they have been fighting against God. Religious teachers have led souls to perdition while professing to guide them to the gates of Paradise. Not until the day of final accounts will it be known how great is the responsibility of men in holy office and how terrible are the results of their unfaithfulness. Only in eternity can we rightly estimate the loss of a single soul. Fearful will be the doom of him to whom God shall say: Depart, thou wicked servant. {GC 640.1}


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: God is wrapping it up! [Re: Mountain Man] #189094
04/11/19 12:34 PM
04/11/19 12:34 PM
His child  Offline OP
SDA
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Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,673
TN, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
HC, and this passage:

"This is the test that the people of God must have before they are sealed. All who prove their loyalty to God by observing His law, and refusing to accept a spurious sabbath, will rank under the banner of the Lord God Jehovah, and will receive the seal of the living God. Those who yield the truth of heavenly origin, and accept the Sunday sabbath, will receive the mark of the beast.... Mar 164.4


Thank you for this quote, though it is out of context.

Quote:
Several times during our conversation, in which you become very much in earnest, you repeated the sentence, "O consistency, thou art a jewel!" I repeat the same with decided force to you. You say that Anna's visions place the forming of the image of the beast after probation closes. This is not so. You claim to believe the testimonies; let them set you right on this point. The Lord has shown me clearly that the image of the beast will be formed before probation closes; for it is to be the great test for the people of God, by which their eternal destiny will be decided. Your position is such a jumble of inconsistencies that but few will be deceived. {15MR 15.1}
In Revelation 13 this subject is plainly presented; [Revelation 13:11-17, quoted]. {15MR 15.2}
This is the test that the people of God must have before they are sealed. All who prove their loyalty to God by observing His law, and refusing to accept a spurious sabbath, will rank under the banner of the Lord God Jehovah, and will receive the seal of the living God. Those who yield the truth of heavenly origin, and accept the Sunday sabbath, will receive the mark of the beast. What need will there be of the solemn warning not to receive the mark of the beast, when all the saints of God are sealed and ticketed for the New Jerusalem? "O consistency, thou art a jewel!" {15MR 15.3}


In Revelation 13:11-17 the warning is against taking the physical mark of the beast.

Quote:
If we receive this mark in our foreheads or in our hands, the judgments pronounced against the disobedient must fall upon us. RH, April 27, 1911 par. 26


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: God is wrapping it up! [Re: His child] #189102
04/12/19 04:49 AM
04/12/19 04:49 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
HC, thank you for sharing your view.

Re: God is wrapping it up! [Re: Mountain Man] #189104
04/12/19 12:15 PM
04/12/19 12:15 PM
His child  Offline OP
SDA
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Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,673
TN, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
HC, thank you for sharing your view.


Mike,
I can't take credit for "my views" The quotations were cut and pasted from the Spirit of Prophecy.

While listening to Walter this morning, I learned:

Quote:
It is difficult to hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end; and the difficulty increases when there are hidden influences constantly at work to bring in another spirit, a counter working element, on Satan's side of the question. In the absence of persecution, there have drifted into our ranks some who appear sound, and their Christianity unquestionable, but who, if persecution should arise, would go out from us. In the crisis, they would see force in specious reasoning that has had an influence on their minds. Satan has prepared various snares to meet varied minds. When the law of God is made void, the church will be sifted by fiery trials, and a larger proportion than we now anticipate, will give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. Instead of being strengthened when brought into strait places, many prove that they are not living branches of the True Vine; they bore no fruit, and the husbandman taketh them away. {GCDB, April 13, 1891 par. 11}


Quote:
I have been especially instructed in regard to the danger of drawing apart, and of evil speaking and contention. We need to bow before God in repentance because of our lack of love for one another, and for him who died for us. The gold of love and faith is not abundant among us. Many are holding on to the truth with but the tips of their fingers. The precious time that should be spent in speaking of the Saviour's power to save, is being spent by many in carrying evil reports. Unless they make a decided change, they will be found wanting. Unless they have an entire transformation of character, they will never enter heaven. A deep, thorough work needs to be done in the hearts of those who profess to be children of God. Until they reveal the faith that works by love and purifies the soul, very little genuine work for God will be done in the world. {RH, November 24, 1904 par. 7}


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
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