v.5-11 I am very interested in the vision where Zechariah sees a basket and a woman sitting inside the basket. The woman is pronounced wicked and a lead cover placed over her, and two women with wings carried her to the area between heaven and earth, and then to Shinar.
Does anyone have any ideas about this? I am pretty sure the woman is the early church (maybe I mean a few of the early believers), but a part that apostasied to Babylonish behavior (Shinar), but who are the ones who carry her? Why is the basket she is in covered in lead?
TIA

From Adam Clarke's Commentary on Zechariah 5:6 quoted below:

This is an ephah that goeth forth - This, among the Jews, was the ordinary measure of grain. The woman in the ephah is supposed to represent Judea, which shall be visited for its sins; the talent of lead on the ephah, within which the woman was enclosed, the wrath of God, bending down this culprit nation, in the measure of its sins; for the angel said, “This is wickedness;” that is, the woman represents the mass of iniquity of this nation.

Do you think the woman could also be a type of the early church that fell away and apostate churches set up? And any idea why the two who took her away were described as women with wings?

Referring once again to Adam Clarke's Bible Commentary on Zechariah 5:9 I quote the following:

There came out two women - As the one woman represented the impiety of the Jewish nation; so these two women who were to carry the ephah, in which the woman Iniquity was shut up, under the weight of a talent of lead, may mean the desperate Unbelief of the Jews in rejecting the Messiah; and that Impiety, or universal corruption of manners, which was the consequence of their unbelief, and brought down the wrath of God upon them. The strong wings, like those of a stork, may point out the power and swiftness with which Judea was carried on to fill up the measure of her iniquity, and to meet the punishment which she deserved.

The book of Zechariah was written towards the end of the Babylonian captivity. The prophet was concerned about the indifference of the captives in returning home to Jerusalem and rebuilding the Temple. In fact, the entire book is consumed by it. "'Up, up! Flee from the land of the north,' says the Lord; 'for I have spread you abroad like the four winds of heaven,' says the Lord. 'Up, Zion! Escape, you who dwell with the daughter of Babylon.'" Zech. 2:6-7

The visions of chapter 5 served as a warning to those who had fallen in love with their kidnappers, fallen captive to the comforts of Babylon:

• The flying scroll, the word of the LORD, which they purported to love was testifying against them in their houses, their very hearts. And the curse of God remained over their heads in that foreign land.
   
• The House of Shinar (Babylon) was the house of Wickedness, kept in store for retribution later. Why would anyone want to be associated with such when the day of judgement came for that House? LEAVE BABYLON!!! To build a Temple in that city is wrong, wrong, wrong!
   
• (The imagery of women was used because of the ephah, the measuring cup, to indicate the "cup of iniquity" that was going to grow heavy. Women were the ones who were associated with such domestic exercise. The wings in both instances symbolized rapidity and of Divine origin as in "sent by God Himself".)

It's interesting that the Jews clung to that ancient city, and where is it now? It is a lesson for us that this world is WICKEDNESS and will be consumed one day. Why dig deep to establish roots here? We have a city, the New Jerusalem, which God is preparing for us. Let us leave in our hearts and return to Him. It may not look like much now, but in that day, it will be more glorious than anything anyone had ever imagined.

"Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." -- Jesus Christ, Mat. 6:19-21

///

I'm not sure what all the two women who carry the basket symbolize but in my view this is an end-time prophetic vision that runs from 1:7 to 6:8. So to understand the symbols I'd look at the vision as a whole and treat it like Daniel and Revelation where sometimes the visions repeat and expand and sometimes they are chronological. But I would especially rely on Revelation's descriptions of Babylon the Great to understand the impure woman in Zechariah.

The woman in the basket is confined and restricted by God. She can't come to power until God allows it. He allows the other two women to set her upon her power base in spiritual Babylon. These women have the winds of change in their wings. We may not understand what political/religious or other forces are responsible for establishing Babylon the Great so that she rides the beast until it happens.

Consider this comment:

Theophilus, I came across this allusion to the two women with wings like a stork in Don McLean's American Pie, #1 hit from 1972. All of it is amazingly prophetic of the rise of the anti-Christ which he refers to as "the day the music died". I've bolded the part that alludes to the two women. McLean applies it to a nuclear event that catapults the anti-Christ to power. Pop culture authors have interpreted his lyrics as applying to the past and that was likely one of his meanings but McLean himself, now in his seventies has never said what the lyrics mean.


If that's what he means, McLean could be right. Imagine the reaction of the world if a terrorist organization or nation detonates a nuclear bomb in a populated area in Europe or North America. Even now, the youth, high school teens and adolescents, in Europe are skipping classes to hold public rallies and protests to save the planet. What kind of zeal will they have if they're confronted with this? Youth, environmentalists, globalists, financiers and religious leaders will bond together to meet the emergency to save humanity and the planet.

But I tend to think McLean has it only partly right. I think it will be a startling series of events/disasters, human and superhuman, natural and supernatural, that cause global panic and a global man-made solution to save the planet. Notice the italicized statement in the quote below:


The world's reaction to this revelation that God is master of the situation is panic and rebellion. It brings about the birthing of Babylon the Great, carried by storks in a blanket (actually a well sealed basket) to it's new home, its base, the beast and its image and once again a woman rides the beast.

One element that will be a major factor in setting Babylon down on its base is the Environmental Movement. In the last month or two youth around the world have mobilized to force climate concerns to the front of the nation's legislative priorities. I'd encourage Maritime and family to keep an eye on this movement. It will, in my view, be the catalyst driving the creation of the image of the beast. Here's a list of what US youth are demanding according to the Youth Climate Strike website. The demands are similar globally:

- a national embrace of the Green New Deal
- an end to fossil fuel infrastructure projects
- a national emergency declaration on climate change
- mandatory education on climate change and its effects from K-8
- a clean water supply
- preservation of public lands and wildlife
- all government decisions to be tied to scientific research

The movement is in essence a misguided religion of planetary salvation. In 1986 I had the following dream of a high school youth movement. At no time between 1986 and now have I seen anything that appeared to precisely fulfill it. But what we're seeing today in my view is an ominously good fit. See what you all think.

I was in an attractive middle-class American neighborhood. It was a sunny, summery, late afternoon and I noticed that an unusually large number of people were outside on their lawns and in the street. Besides white people, there were a large number of blacks and Jews. The majority of those outside their homes were walking in the same direction. I was curious where everyone was going, and joined those around me. We soon reached our destination - the local high school where a good number of people had already gathered on the front lawn of the school. As we approached the school I saw a large, newly sculpted statue that the people had gathered around. It was clear that this statue, which was still under construction but nearing completion (its base required some finishing touches) was the reason for the gathering. The statue was the all-absorbing topic of discussion. Some were in favor of having it completed and some were opposed.

The statue itself was large and impressive - perhaps forty feet in height. It was of a large, handsome, muscular male. He stood upright like a Caesar with a self-assured bearing, his right hand raised as though addressing a crowd. A spiked crown was on his head, like the crown on the Statue of Liberty, but no torch was in his raised right hand. With my eyes I followed his form down towards his feet and I was surprised to see that this large image was being carried securely on the shoulders of another statue, also a man, but about one third the size of the first. This second man was dressed in the full armor of an ancient Roman legionnaire (foot soldier). The face of this soldier was what impressed me most. It had an intelligent, purposeful and determined look. I was given the impression that the material it was carved from - very hard stone - was an expression of its determined character or will.

I came closer to the base of the statue and noticed that it bore many inscriptions, none of which I understood, but which contained symbols of the occult. After looking at these, I found myself rising from the ground, being lifted up to the top of the statue, level with its head. The head mysteriously began to open above the left ear as though the top of the skull were hinged just above the right ear. I looked inside. But, even when open and exposed directly to the afternoon sunlight the inside of the skull remained ominously dark. The only distinguishable object inside the skull was what looked like a spider's web made of strong strands of steel spanning the inside. The skull seemed full of evil and in my dream I shuddered in horror.

The top of the skull closed then just as it had opened and I was lowered to the ground and placed near the front of the image. Something on my left then attracted my attention. I turned and saw a set of bleachers to the left of the statue and that a woman's choir dressed in their robes had gathered on them and was starting to sing. The choir was made up of women of different races, and as they sang, they made signs with their hands that reinforced the lyrics of their song. They sang with gusto and in beautiful harmony as though pleading a case against the completion of the statue. As the song built to a climax they held out their hands in the direction of the statue as though presenting the final plea and warning to the audience of the results of finishing it.

But after the climax, the song came to an abrupt end and the choir members hurriedly began to remove their robes and disperse in the direction of the school. I was now standing on the lawn between the main school doors and the choir bleachers. As the members of the choir approached where I stood on their way into the school, I asked some of them sympathetically about what they had sung. Most hurried quickly by into the school avoiding my question. Several acted embarrassed and irritated. Some were scornful towards the very ideas they had just sung about and awkwardly stated that they had never actually believed what they were advocating. Then I awoke. After awakening I was able to recall all the particulars of the dream, but the feeling of horror I experienced when looking inside the scull remained with me quite a while after waking.

PS: I send this message to Dennis Prager this morning, just now:

well; I dont see anything Biblical in this "dream." Seems like you have a very active imagination. What are we supposed to do with this? How you managed to mix in the concern re the "environmental movement"; Ill never know. What Bible truth are you trying to attach to this theme? Personally, I dont see anything in it worth pursuing.

- a national emergency declaration on climate change
- all government decisions to be tied to scientific research

They may find a conflict with that!

I recall a similar dream you told about that you seemed to have a different conclusion. Are the dreams the same or different?

I don't know about the dream things, but I do know Stephen bohr has been preaching that climate change will bring the world together. His video on this topic is fantastic.
Also, I heardthe song by don McClean, American Pie, was about Buddy Holly, Richie valens, and the Big Bopper.

Interesting: I saw this comment as I scanned through this topic. Didn't have a clue who wrote it.

Thought to myself: reads like something Kland would write.

Surprise...Kland did write it.

Hmmm... Would you say I question things?

To the extent that you often muddy the water when things are clear.

I've shared it here before but I can't remember what my conclusions were. Bohr is right IMO. I've been looking recently for the spiritualism aspect within the environmental movement because in the dream the statue rests on an occultic/spiritualistic base. To me it's becoming evident that the religious fervor about the environment for many people draws heavily from paganism, nature worship, pantheism etc., and this is starting to manifest overtly now in the Vatican's treatment of the topic. Earlier today I read the introduction of Laudato Si, the current Pope's encyclical on the environment from a few years ago and was surprised at the Pope's blatantly pantheistic and pagan sentiments.

In addition to venerating and worshiping mother earth, in the same document, Laudato Si, the Pope offers Sunday or sun worship as a cornerstone of environmental salvation by shutting off emissions on that day which he also recommends as a family day for the laborer. It makes a certain kind of sense to link together environmental reverence with the Pagan veneration of mother nature and with the sun and Sunday. Ellen White tells us that heathen deities will manifest themselves supernaturally at the end. This has started with the Fox sisters of Rochester and now with Marian apparitions leading the way for other heathen deities to chime in and combine together to reinforce the call of the youth movement. Green religion combines with and is underpinned by green spiritualism.

But what does the Bible teach. It tells us that the world is laid waste because of the weight of the sins and transgressions of its wicked inhabitants. Only those who are in harmony with the laws of the Creator are empowered to be true stewards of the environment. In worshiping the Creator they naturally and automatically will care for the created order as faithful stewards who have been entrusted with the dominion of the earth.

I imagine that the powers that be are sitting around thinking climate change is a big hoax. But since the people keep it going, they say, hmmm, maybe we can use that to our advantage. So now they're going with it. At least at the present time until something more popular comes up. Asteroid, nuclear, Muslims, who knows.

Climate change will climax in the 7 last plagues. No hoax prophecy getting ready to be fulfilled.

Environmental concerns from fossil fuel consumption has only intensified over the last 70 plus years. It's not a fad. It's morphed from valid concern to an hysterical religious movement that some of the powers will use as you say to their own ends. Rather than seeing God's hand in the disasters that are calls to repentance, the world blindly attributes these things mainly to fossil fuel consumption. Given that these calamities will increase we can expect the calls for environmental reform will intensify. But you make a valid point - the focus could still shift. There is still the "overwhelming surprise" factor.

Aren't you being facetious, duplicitous, misleading and demonstrably prone to telling tall tales in school?

The Pope NEVER offered "Sunday or sun worship as a cornerstone ..." The TEN COMMANDMENTS specifically warns against this type thing you do. It says, "You shall not bear false witness, period!" Exod. 20:16

You rest you say on Saturdays, named for the pagan god Saturn. Moreover, you wax eloquent about the matter and grow solemn, travelling over land and see seeking to make one proselyte of anyone who would be beguiled by you. If the Pope were offering "Sunday or sun worship as a cornerstone" and you condemn him, how is it afterwards, you ask to borrow his shoes and continue onward walking in very his footsteps?

Matthew 7:5

///

While I cannot speak regarding the person you were directing this comment to, I could offer the thought that it is "the seventh day," Sabbath, regardless of what one wants to call it. The person you addressed this comment to does not speak for the Adventist Church. The official belief of Adventists puts it this way:

You're right. The Pope does not directly promote paganism. He and the Catholic Church for the last 1600 years have adopted the main religious holidays of paganism and sanctified them by their own authority under the blatantly blasphemous claim that they, under God, are themselves gods on earth and therefore above the law of God. It is baptized Paganism that the Pope promotes which is more sinister than paganism itself. And so God is forced to leave them to their own delusions such as the sentiments the Pope expressed in Laudato Si which are clearly pagan and pantheistic.

Ha ha.
Well yes, that's true, but has nothing to do with what today is being called climate change.

Some people don't think the following verse regarding the plagues/wrath of God is related to environmental stewardship, which is fine. Personally I see a connection. Notice the underlined parts:
Of course the main cause for the disruption and destruction of nature and the environment is sin. But men can worsen the groans of creation by polluting it physically as well as spiritually by contaminating it with toxic chemicals, with radioactive contamination, biological weapons, with genetic confusion of species etc. This last destructive behavior is especially offensive to God because man assumes the role of the Creator when he meddles with creation.

Hmmm...



Do you not think that that has anything to do with the destruction of the ozone layer and global warming?



Cause and effect climaxing in the 7 last plagues is not an anominally.

Read what I wrote again:
but has nothing to do with what today is being called climate change.

Today, CO2, carbon dioxide, makes up about .04 percent of the gases in earth's atmosphere. That means 99.96 percent of the atmosphere is made up of other gasses. (I don't doubt that those figures are accurate. We've been able to measure CO2 accurately for about a century.) Eighty or ninety years ago CO2 was about .03 percent. In other words the non-CO2 gasses were 99.97 percent. So between the time that fossil fuel consumption rose significantly and today, atmospheric CO2 has increased by .01 percent.

The majority of scientists claim that this change is the main cause of temperature rise because CO2 traps more of the sun's energy than other gasses do. I don't doubt their claim that CO2 does do that. But I haven't understood so far how they arrived at the conclusion that a .01 percent change in the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere is causing global warming. To me, I'm open to being convinced because it's a plausible explanation but I can certainly see room for questioning how strong the causal link is between the two. Maybe someone on here can explain why. If the link was direct shouldn't scientists be able to conduct controlled studies of the temperature rise comparing one container of gas with another when exposed to the same sunlight.

Given however long you think the climate has existed on this earth, do you think 100 years is adequate to determine "normal" CO2 levels? And you're right, at .03 percent, one wonders how that can make a difference. Note, that is not .03 but 0.0003! And as you're probably aware, one volcano going off can swamp that in no time.


How would one go about determining that the temperature is rising?
Today, it is much cooler than yesterday. Does that mean we are going into global cooling? If you say one day is not long enough, then how many days or years do we need to determine whether the earth is warming or cooling? You look at a line chart from 1880 to 2000 and the temperature rises and falls, but appears to be in a general incline. But if you choose a segment midway, it appears in a decline. Is there any reason not to suspect that if there were more years, we would see rises and falls made up of smaller rises and falls? Just because we are looking at a very limited segment should not cause us to conclude anything.

If there was a way to even determine the current temperature of the earth, do we know whether that is the ideal temperature or if it should be warmer or cooler? It seems to me that there is some egocentrism that we do not even care how things were 100 years ago, but only care what it was during part of our lives and want it to be the same. But weather happens. Even if it doesn't meet all the predictions made...

So many questions that so many scientists and others do not answer or do not ask.

I found the meaning of Zechariah 5 from this Walter Veith video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGiXc9ydhqw

Except for the Illuminati-Jesuit-Vatican conspiracy theory, good video. The best lecture on Zechariah 5 I've heard.

The problem with conspiracy theories is two fold: 1)They are a distraction from the more important issues of present truth and the three angel's messages and 2)They are usually a source of disunity and division because they are strongly held opinions that, like climate change, can't be proven either way.

But, notice that Veith agrees that the main application of Zechariah 5 is to the near future. And he implies Revelation 11 also is to be fulfilled again in the future. I'm glad to see a well-known SDA making that application. I hope he sees the future final application of the trumpets and seals as well.

Good points. After I posted that bit on CO2 a few weeks ago I reviewed NASA's site on climate change and was more than a little surprised to find out how weak their case actually is. I still think it's probable that burning an unprecedented amount of fossil fuels is having some kind of impact, but it is by no means an open and shut case so far as what exactly the impact(s) is/are. It should concern us when the youth are energized, convinced that you and I are irrational deniers of science if we don't agree and anyone who thinks otherwise is a menace to their well being and future.

Yes, burning an unprecedented amount of fossil fuels is having some kind of impact, but not global warming. Did everyone forget about pollution? There are lots of harmful byproducts being produced unlike natural occurring air. And it's using up resources which could be used for something more clever than just to burn. It wouldn't surprise me that some of the biggest polluters could be behind the global warming hoax in order to take the heat off their worst by-products. 'We might be dumping tons of toxins into the river, but we changed to LED lighting and plant trees to offset our carbon footprint'. Yeah....

I think what your seeing with the youth, is not just youth, but this background permeating hostility. The trade towers kind of started a mentality that some are not going to set back and let their "plane" be crashed. Which may have been another purpose of the event....

In March 2015, it was determined that 96 million barrels of oil were consumed daily. 96 x 365 = 35,040.

It is not possible to consume 35,050 million barrels of oil a year without putting a considerable amount of heat into the atmosphere that is not being offset by planting trees or other means. While generating heat and CO2 from oil consumption, the US alone is being deforested at a rate of 10 million acres annually. Some of that land is being replanted, but a sapling does not take nearly as much CO2 from the atmosphere as full grown trees.

And none of the above takes into consideration the number of acres lost annually to forest fires globally.

Heat?

Really?

Me thinks you do not understand the issues of the false claim.