Who are they and what is the significance of this prophecy to the end times?

I came across a study which had some interesting points in a Adventist forum, and when I went into it deeper, I found a lot of discussion and some applications in Adventist circles about it, to say nothing of others. https://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/sites/default/files/pdf/Release%201%20%283-1-16%29.pdf

Some commentators feel its the form of goverment which counts Uraih Smith among its numbers, but others feel its still the historical line of the nations as in Daniel.

Here is one interpretation...

"We see 5 beasts listed in these verses. Now consider carefully the 5 that are fallen. leopard beast bear lion dragon
1.Lion = Babylon
2.Bear = Medo Persia
3.Leopard = Grecia
4.Red Dragon 10 horns 7 crowns = Pagan Rome before 538 AD.
5.Conglomerate beast of Revelation 13, has all characteristics of the above listed beasts. And is given its power by the red dragon. (Rev 13:2). Therefore this is the 5th kingdom. And it reigns for 1260 days until the crowns are taken. It has 10 crowns until it falls.

At which point the deadly wound occurs. The power is taken from this 5th Kingdom which ruled the world for 1260 years during the dark ages......The rule of the Papacy ended in 1798 exactly 1260 years after the destruction of the Ostrogoths and the implementation of the Justinian decree in 538AD. Pope Pius vi was taken captive by General Berthier of France. The destruction of the Papacy was thought to be sure when there were more than 1000 priests murdered at that day. This is well known as the deadly wound to the Papacy which is mentioned in Revelation 13.

At the time of the Pope going into captivity we see another beast rising out of the earth. beasttwo horns

Revelation 13:10-12 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
(11) And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
(12) And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
?In 1798 General Berthier made his entrance into Rome, abolished the papal government, and established a secular one.? -Encyclopedia Britannica 1941 edition

Right around the time that the Pope Pius was taken captive, we see another beast coming up out of the earth with 2 horns. No crowns on these horns. This beast was representative of America....So the time when 5 are fallen is therefore when there is no monarchy or one world Kingdom reigning the earth as in the past.

1. Lion ? Babylon
2. Bear ? Medo Persia
3. Leopard ? Greece
4. Dragon ? Pagan Rome
5. Diverse Beast ? Papal Rome Got power from Dragon(Rev 13″2)

?One is??.

6. America?Second Beast?Not a monarchy?No Crowns

?The other is not yet come??

7. 10 Horns?These have one mind?Uni?United Nations. Reign for 1 hour as a Kingdom. They have yet to receive the monarchy and ruled as Kings at this point in time. The head being the woman or Papacy, and they are given power apostate Protestant America.

And the 8th which is of the 7 is the beast which was, is not and is.

Protestant America is the 6th. It begins to speak like a dragon, and finally gives its power to the Papacy.
"https://thethirdangelsmessage.com/the-7-kings-of-revelation-17-correcting-the-misinterpretation

This tended to agree with the study I had come across on one of the Adventist forums which had the following...

"Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Let us establish what it means by this bottomless pit.

G12
ἄβυσσος
abussos
ab'-us-sos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and a variation of G1037; depthless, that is, (specifically), (infernal) ?abyss?: - deep, (bottomless) pit.

The Greek word used here refers to an abyss, and in the book of beginnings in Genesis 1:2, we see that Moses refers to the earth being an Abyss when it was dark and void of any light.

This word is used seven times in Revelation, 5 times referring to an opposing religion, the 6th and 7th to Satan himself. Seeing as God's word is referred to as light, this bottomless pit is referring to the darkness this entity comes out of, because it bears no light.

So which Beast did we just see? We saw the Papacy after 1798, ?which was? when it ruled from 538-1798 AD.

She ?is not? because now she has received her deadly wound and is only a Woman with no power to persecute as of yet.

And ?yet is,? as she is secretly working behind the scenes, deceiving the world into accepting her.

When the U.S (The False Prophet), followed by the World enforces the Sunday Law, the Papacy will have conquered the world spiritually, the deadly wound will be healed, She will ascend out of darkness, and will go into perdition.

Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Many like to say that these seven mountains are the seven hills that the Vatican sits upon, and yes it is true the Vatican does sit upon seven hills, which are a counterfeit of the true.

Mount Zion was just before us, and on the mount was a glorious temple, and about it were seven other mountains, on which grew roses and lilies. And I saw the little ones climb, or, if they chose, use their little wings and fly to the top of the mountains, and pluck the never-fading flowers. {CET 63}

But these are not what the Bible is referring to.

Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

We are told that the mountain here is referring to a kingdom.

Isa 66:20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

And that Holy Mountain is Jerusalem

Psa 48:2 Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.

It is also called Mount Zion, the City of King Jesus, Jerusalem.

Isa 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

We also notice that this City or mountain represents God's people.

So a mountain in the Bible, effectively is a nation of people, with a King ruling over it.

This is confirmed in the next verse where we seven kings.

Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

We also see the dragons seven heads with seven crowns on top.

Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
So who are the five that are fallen?

When we study Rev 13, we see the Papacy is this Beast that comes out of the Sea? This is a make up of the five that are fallen:

1. Lions Head = Babylon (Self Exaltation)

2. Feet of the Bear = Medo Persia (A foundation built upon cruelty, and laws that do not change)

3. Body of a Leopard = Greece (Philosophy , or our education system)

4. Dragon Beast = Pagan Rome (Servitude)

5. The Papacy (Beast out of the Sea) that has the makeup of all of these characteristics, that came after Pagan Rome (Rev 13:1,2)

6. The one is = The USA (The Beast out of the Earth) (Apostate Protestantism) was recognised in 1798 as a world power, just as the Papacy, was receiving it's deadly wound.

7. The other is not yet come ??

Let us look now and see who this 7th Kingdom is.

If we go to Revelation 16 we will find a clue to the identity of this power.

Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

God is a God of order, let us look at that order, it will inform us who kingdom n 7 is.

The Bible confirms this theory.
Eze 29:3 Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.

Egypt, a symbol of the world, represents the world rulers (The Dragon) at the end of time.

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet;(Singular) but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
Rev 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Dan 2:42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom (Singular) shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
Dan 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

We can also see this confederacy of ten elsewhere in scriptures depicting the death decree made by the world.

Psa 83:1 Keep not thou silence, O God: hold not thy peace, and be not still, O God.
Psa 83:2 For, lo, thine enemies make a tumult: and they that hate thee have lifted up the head.
Psa 83:3 They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones.
Psa 83:4 They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.
Psa 83:5 For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee:
Psa 83:6 The tabernacles of Edom, and the Ishmaelites; of Moab, and the Hagarenes;
Psa 83:7 Gebal, and Ammon, and Amalek; the Philistines with the inhabitants of Tyre;
Psa 83:8 Assur also is joined with them: they have holpen the children of Lot. Sela

The Children of Lot are Ammon and Moab and have already been mentioned.

Again the ten kings are symbolized in the book of Esther with Haman and his 10 sons.

The decree which is to go forth against the people of God will be very similar to that issued by Ahasuerus against the Jews in the time of Esther. The Persian edict sprang from the malice of Haman toward Mordecai. Not that Mordecai had done him harm, but he had refused to show him reverence which belongs only to God. The king's decision against the Jews was secured under false pretenses through misrepresentation of that peculiar people. Satan instigated the scheme in order to rid the earth of those who preserved the knowledge of the true God. But his plots were defeated by a counterpower that reigns among the children of men. Angels that excel in strength were commissioned to protect the people of God, and the plots of their adversaries returned upon their own heads. The Protestant world today, see in the little company keeping the Sabbath a Mordecai in the gate. His character and conduct, expressing reverence for the law of God, are a constant rebuke to those who have cast off the fear of the Lord and are trampling upon His Sabbath; the unwelcome intruder must by some means be put out of the way. {5T 450.1}

Again, Jesus shows us the end from the beginning Isaiah 46:9, 10

If we go to Babel where it all started, we should find a type.

Gen 10:8 And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth.
Gen 10:9 He was a mighty hunter before the LORD: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the LORD.
Gen 10:10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.
Gen 10:11 Out of that land went forth Asshur, and builded Nineveh, and the city Rehoboth, and Calah,
Gen 10:12 And Resen between Nineveh and Calah: the same is a great city.

Ten!!

Gen 11:1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.

Babylon is being rebuilt in the form of a New World Order.

One Religion
One Currency
One Language
One Government

Gen 11:4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
Gen 11:5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

History is repeating itself!

The Kings of the Earth can only be represented by the UN for several reasons.

1. It is the only organization that represents the whole world.

2. It has already split the world into ten divisions on paper.

3. The Papacy is the only Religious Organization that has a seat in the UN.

4. The UN has a spiritualist meditation room within it's HQ, dedicated for prayer, based upon Hinduism, and is predominantly controlled by freemasonry (Spiritualism).

The 7th is the UN or in other words, the New World Order, represented by the 10 toes of Daniel 2, and Rev 17:12, a confederacy of 10 Nations that have no kingdom as yet.

Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

If we apply the same principle again, the next in line is the Beast (Papacy), which the Ten Kings (UN) (NWO) give their power and strength unto the Beast.

Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast....

Rev 17:12 ?one hour with the Beast.?

We will finish off with a quote from Sister White that confirms this 3 fold union.

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Revelation 16:13, 14. {Mar 190.1}
By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation [the United States] will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {Mar 190.2}
Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions. While the former lays the foundation of spiritualism, the latter creates a bond of sympathy with Rome. The Protestants of the United States will be foremost in stretching their hands across the gulf to grasp the hand of spiritualism; they will reach over the abyss to clasp hands with the Roman power; and under the influence of this threefold union, this country will follow in the steps of Rome in trampling on the rights of conscience. . . . {Mar 190.3}
Papists, Protestants, and worldling will alike accept the form of godliness without the power, and they will see in this union a grand movement for the conversion of the world and the ushering in of the long-expected millennium. {Mar 190.4}..."


What are your thougnts?

This prophecy does not need to be made so difficult.
The first (sea-beast) in Rev 13 is the papacy.

the same beast in cited in Rev 17 and it explains that they are not kingdoms
17:10 "And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space."

The short space king was Benedict XVI. The 8th is not Francis,, he is not in this prophecy (he is in Rev 16)

The 8th is of the 7 (Pope John-Paul II)

Notice that Satan personates a HUMAN BEING (John-Paul II) before Satan personates Jesus.

As the second appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ draws near, satanic agencies are moved from beneath. Satan will not only appear as a human being, but he will personate Jesus Christ; and the world who has rejected the truth will receive him as the Lord of lords and King of kings. He will exercise his power, and work upon the human imagination. He will corrupt both the minds and the bodies of men, and will work through the children of disobedience, fascinating and charming, as does a serpent. What a spectacle for God, the Creator of the world, to behold! The form Satan assumed in Eden when leading our first parents to transgress was of a character to bewilder and confuse the mind. He will work in as subtle a manner as we near the end of earth?s history. All his deceiving power will be brought to bear upon human subjects, to complete the work of deluding the human family. So deceptive will be his working, that men will do as they did in the days of Christ? Christ will be represented in the person of those who accept the truth, and who identify their interest with that of their Lord (RH, April 14, 1896 par. 6).

Here is Ministry Magazine on this issue...

"As the angel further explains to John from his time?s perspective, five of these kingdoms have fallen, one is, and the seventh one would appear sometime in the future. As previously explained, this cryptic text has generated numerous speculative interpretations, primarily due to the interpreters? failure to note that the meaning of these successive kingdoms was explained to John in the context of his own time?not ours. Nowhere in the text does it indicate that John was transported to another time; the angel simply explains to him what he had already seen previously in the vision.

Therefore, the key to decoding the meaning of these seven heads lies in the sixth kingdom, which is described as "is." This "is" refers to John's time. John lived in the time of the sixth head, the Roman Empire. The five that had fallen were thus the empires that ruled the world and caused harm to God's people prior to the time of John:
(1) Egypt was the world power that enslaved and oppressed Israel, seeking to destroy her;
(2) Assyria destroyed and scattered the ten tribes of Israel;
(3) Babylon destroyed Jerusalem and exiled Judah;
(4) Persia almost annihilated the Jews at the time of Esther;
(5) Greece oppressed and tried to destroy the Jews through Antiochus Epiphanes.

The seventh kingdom that "has not yet come" refers to the medieval papacy that, from John's time perspective, would be manifested in the future from John's time after the fall of the Roman Empire. The angel further explained that the scarlet beast itself is a part of the phase of the eighth head, the world power that is to come at the time of the end. Yet, it is one of the previously noted seven heads. Although this eighth head is one of the previous seven, it is considered a new power. Which of the seven? Most likely the seventh head, which previously experienced the deadly wound but comes back to life after its wound has healed.

This seventh power will reappear as the eighth head at the end of time and will exercise the same authority as it did during the Middle Ages. During the time of the eighth head, the scarlet beast carries the prostitute Babylon. We now live in the era of the seventh head, for the eighth head has not yet gained its power. However, it will appear on the world scene at the time of the end and will impose its rule on the inhabitants of the earth."
https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/2013/12/the-seven-heads-of-the-beast-in-revelation-17

The Bible clearly states that they are kings.

17:10 "And there are seven kings: five are fallen,
and one is, [and] the other is not yet come;
and when he cometh, he must continue a short space."

To needlessly "reinterpret" the word of God and to assert that kings are kingdoms
without a need to make that application is a formula for misunderstanding.

His child, was Babylon prophesied as a king or kingdom in the image dream?

Here is from my friend Amo which makes it much more clear.."Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. 9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

The seven kings are the seven beasts of biblical prophecy. Kings, mountains, and beasts are used interchangeably in the above verses. The book of Daniel identifies kings and or kingdoms with prophetic beasts. Mountains also may prophetically represent kingdoms. Mount Zion is the kingdom of God. Satan was kicked out of the holy mountain of God, God's kingdom(Eze 28). The seven kings, beasts, and mountains are his counterfeit kingdoms of this world in rebellion against God.

The prophecy is given from the time of the sixth beast, kingdom, or mountain, for five have fallen when given. The beast that was, is not, and yet is, is the seventh beast of biblical prophecy foretold in Rev 13, as the resurrected beast who received a deadly wound which heals. It is the seventh and final beast of biblical prophecy which is the resurrected Holy Roman Empire on a global scale. It is said to be an eighth and one of the seven because the number eight is the number of the resurrection. Also because in 1929 the Vatican became a literal nation state of this world and is therefore now uniquely qualified to be one of the seven, the fifth beast resurrected, and at the same time a new literal nation state of this world. The Church of Rome alone can fill this unique position.

Apart from this, when the national Sunday law is passed which the Church of Rome calls the eighth day according to the resurrection, her power will be fully resurrected once again as well. Sunday laws are what gave Babylon the great, the power of the state the first time she rode the fifth beast of biblical prophecy.

2191 The Church celebrates the day of Christ's Resurrection on the "eighth day," Sunday, which is rightly called the Lord's Day (cf. SC 106). 2192 "Sunday... is to be observed as the foremost holy day of obligation in the universal Church" (CIC, can. 1246 ? 1).

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The third commandment

www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c1a3.htm

In Daniel 2 Daniel said to King Nebuchadnezzar "You are the head of gold."
In Daniel 4 Daniel said to King Nebuchadnezzar "You are the tree."

The translators translated Daniel 2 to make the head of gold the kingdom and overlooked the king
The translators translated Daniel 4 to make the tree the king and overlooked his kingdom.

totally inconsistent translations.

In Daniel 2 and 4 King Nebuchadnezzar is symbolic of himself and his kingdom BOTH

At times a king and a kingdom can be interchanged in Bible prophecy.

But when Heaven is giving an interpretation and Heaven states in the interpretation that it is a king or a kingdom
Man is assuming too much upon himself (or herself if you are speaking of a woman bible scholar)
to change Heaven's interpretation to suit man's opinions

If man is interpreting a vision and believes that the king or kingdom is the symbol of the other that is one thing
But when Heaven gives the interpretation that is what it is

Well lets go though the prophecy and see what scripture has to help us. A woman in the Bible is a symbol for God?s people. In Revelation, God?s true church is portrayed as a pure woman.

Revelation 12 King James Version (KJV)
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Note the great red dragon which clearly denotes Satan, so now we know the origin of this power.
Now we go to Revelation 17:

Revelation 17 King James Version (KJV)
1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

A harlot thus represents a false apostate church and in Revelation 17:5, this harlot is identified as Babylon the Great. Revelation 17 gives us a glimpse of what Babylon will be like. Using prophetic language, it describes a woman who rejects God with her whole being:

And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH (Revelation 17:4-5).

The woman that rides the Beast has all the identifying features of who is this entity. We find much in the Bible, a woman represents a church:

I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate woman (Jeremiah 6:2).

Isaiah the prophet extends the symbol of a woman to that of a bride. The pure bride represents the pure Church:

For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee (Isaiah 62:5).

Hosea describes the union of God and His people:

And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies (Hosea 2:19).

The same symbolism is employed in the New Testament:

...for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ (2 Corinthians 11:2)

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish (Ephesians 5:25-27).

Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready (Revelation 19:7).

This beautiful picture of Christ and His Bride, the Church, is marred by the image of a church, ?With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication , and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication ? (Revelation 17:2).

There is the only one church on earth that fulfills these identifiers of the woman called Babylon in Revelation 17. The description of Babylon given in the book of Revelation clearly identifies Babylon as this antichrist power that persecuted the true believers and has let corruption in and has reached across the world. Because of this church's deviations from the Bible, the Protestants of the Reformation and after, referred to the church with a mere man who claims the power of God on earth, as spiritual Babylon.

Continuing with Revelation 17:
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

I think we can all agree that both Daniel and Revelation identifies kings and or kingdoms with prophetic beasts. The prophecy is given from the time of the sixth beast, kingdom, or mountain, for five have fallen when given. The beast that was, is not, and yet is, is the seventh beast of biblical prophecy foretold in Rev 13, as the resurrected beast who received a deadly wound which heals. It is the seventh and final beast of biblical prophecy which is the resurrected Holy Roman Empire on a global scale. It is said to be an eighth and one of the seven because it looked like it received a blow from Napoleons general that took away its temporal power and seemed to have taken down completely as a religious power, but it recovers from this deadly wound. The Church of Rome alone can fill this unique position.

Now the origin of all this has always been the dragon or Satan and it has been there since the start of these kingdoms/beasts.

Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Now as to Antichrist power that receives the deadly would, need to look more closely at little horn beast in Daniel 7:

Daniel 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

This is also a reference to:

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Continuing to follow the trail of seven heads and ten horns in the Bible leads us also to the beast in Revelation 17, the same beast destroyed in Revelation 19:20 as we have just seen.

Revelation 17:
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

So you contrast this woman with the woman found in Revelation 12 which represents the righteous church of believers that brought forth Jesus and is described in admirable terms. Its clear this symbolic woman described here in Revelation 17, is the apostate church. There is only one Christian church that is self-described as the Mother church, and arose from the declining Roman Empire and persecuted the true believers. Its not hard to figure out that this is the Papacy.

The beast being the same beast as in Rev 13 is the papacy. The woman riding the beast is not the papacy riding itself. She is not identified as MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. The woman is apostate Protestantism. The name on her head is the mark of the beast. It is like wearing a ball cap with you favorite team's name on it. You are not an Astro simply because your favorite team's name is on your cap.

This post was a great chain of prophetic nonsense. The Scriptures that were put together in this post do not belong together. The first beast in Rev 13 is the papacy. The 7 heads of the healed post-1929 papacy are the pius head through Benedict XVI (who ruled for a short space by Babylonian custom 29 March 2006 thru 28 February 2013) a day and a month short of 7 years (a day and a month short of completeness). Thus, the prophetic hour for the seven kings (83 years 4 months) was from 14 October 1929 thru 14 February 2013.

I appreciate your efforts, but the endtime meaning of Revelation 17 and 18 will forever remain a mystery if the wrong path is followed.

So was Babylon not prophesied in the dream?

Da 2:37 "You, O king, are a king of kings. For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, strength, and glory;
Da 2:38 -you are this head of gold.
Da 2:39 "But after you shall arise another kingdom inferior to yours; then another, a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth.

Are you saying it should say:
But after you shall arise another king inferior to you; then another, a third king of bronze,
?
Who is the second king of silver and the third king of bronze?

In Daniel 2, Daniel was speaking to the king as he spoke to him in Daniel 4.
We do not have a problem applying the dream in Daniel 4 to King Nebuchadnezzar.

Daniel 7 repeats and expands Daniel 2 so that it applies to the kingdom Babylon.
Thus Daniel 4 is repeated and expanded as it applies to the kingdom as well.
And Daniel 7 repeats and enlarges Daniel 7 (itself) so that it applies to the endtime kingdom Babylon as well.

Nebuchadnezzar's 4 king dynasty aligns with Jeremiah's prophecy


And when Daniel 7 expands and explains Daniel 2 and 4, it does so in regards to the endrime four kings from the earth (7:17).

this audio link will help. It is a chapter by chapter overview of Daniel. My virus scan says it is too large to scan, but it is virus free.I have downloaded and played it without any trouble

http://bit.ly/36rxOgX

1.2 Gigabytes! And from googlespy, besides.
I think not.


His child, not sure you answered my question.
Are you saying Daniel 2 is not referring to future kingdoms?
Is Medo-Persia and Greece not referred to in Daniel 2?

While rejecting truth from Heaven, it is not possible to understand the Present Truth.

His child, is this not a valid and relevant question?

Are you saying Daniel 2 is not referring to future kingdoms?
Is Medo-Persia and Greece not referred to in Daniel 2?

In Daniel 2 Daniel said to King Nebuchadnezzar "You are the head of gold."
The translators translated Daniel 2 to make the head of gold the kingdom and overlooked the king







The initial application of Daniel 2 was to King Nebuchadnezzar. In Daniel 7, Daniel 2 was enlarged and explained to include the kingdoms from Babylon to Rome. The translators premature understanding of Daniel 2 as it applied to the great kingdoms led them to translate it in such a way as to conceal its meaning as it related to the king and his dynasty. Thus Daniel 2 applies to both the king (his dynasty) and the great kingdoms. The translators focus on the kingdom of Babylon was ordained of God to "seal up, close, and shut up" the book of Daniel until the endtime.

In Daniel 7, the prophet saw sea beasts Heaven's interpretation said nothing about sea beasts, but instead it expanded and explained the vision as it applied to "earth kings". Thus, the meaning of Daniel 7 was shut, closed and sealed up until knowledge increased.

Daniel 2 used Nebuchadnezzar's dynasty to foreshadow the great kingdoms and to explain the four earth kings that were to arise in the endtime. To make Daniel 2 apply to the kingdoms as the primary meaning is a reading that limits " the wise men of the present day, who, not having wisdom and discernment from the Most High, are unable to understand the prophecies." Laodicea will remain blinded about this prophecy until it gets the eyesalve from Jesus.

Since you accuse me of a simpleton, make your answer simple for such one. Do not answer questions not asked, but answer this simple question regarding Daniel 2:

>>>>Who is the second king of silver and the third king of bronze?<<<<<

Kland,

Please forgive me if I came across as calling you a simpleton. It was never my intention to say or imply any such thing.
2) Silver=Evil-Merodach [Nebuchadnezzar?s son],
3) Bronze= Neriglissar [Nebuchadnezzar?s son-in-law],

Thank you for answering my question.

Seems we've had it wrong all these decades.....
Did he just have those two sons/inlaws?

No we had it right as far as God would allow us to understand it.
Knowledge was promised to increase.
The local application of Daniel 2 was about Nebuchadnezzar's dynasty

Nebuchadnezzar?s dynasty fulfilled Daniel 2 and Jeremiah?s prophecy:
1) Nebuchadnezzar,
2) Evil-Merodach [son],
3) Neriglissar [Nebuchadnezzar?s son-in-law],
4) Nabonidus [Nebuchad?nezzar?s son-in-law], and
5) Belshazzar [Nebuchadnezzar?s grandson], who co-ruled with Nabonidus until Babylon fell. Though Jeremiah did not elaborate that more than three kings would rule from Nebuchadnezzar until his grandson, Jeremiah?s prophecy was fulfilled by Nebuchadnezzar, Evil-Merodach [his son], and Belshazzar [his grandson].





This Babylonian dynasty only partially fulfilled Daniel 2
When Daniel 7 introduced the great kingdoms, that expanded and explained Daniel 2 to be the Great kingdoms as well as the kings. This was all true, but both applications only partial fulfilled the prophecy.

Because God said that the book of Daniel was to be sealed until the endtime (cf Daniel 12:4, 9)

In the endtime the meaning of the 4 sea beasts was revealed to be kingdoms but these kingdoms from the sea are not the kings from the earth. earth and sea are different. And the known kingdoms only foreshadow the unknown kings that were to arise in the endtime.

I see now looking back, you had given an answer to my question which was lost among other answers.
So help me here. Remember I'm a simpleton.
Go through your answer above showing how each part fits the dream.



How do your quotes from Ellen White relate to his sons being the parts of the dream?

1) Nebuchadnezzar, ?...???...??...???...?...????......Head of gold
2) Evil-Merodach [son], ?...??????...???...?????...chest and arms silver
3) Neriglissar [Nebuchadnezzar?s son-in-law], ...???......????.brass midsection
4) Nabonidus [Nebuchad?nezzar?s son-in-law],...??...?????...iron leg that extends into iron clay foot
5) Belshazzar [Nebuchadnezzar?s grandson], ??.?...?????...iron leg that extends into iron clay foot

If you prefer Nabonidus could be thought of as the iron legs and Belshazzar the iron and clay feet, but as I understand it from Hebrew thought, the word for hand is the same as the word for forearm. Thus, the concept of the leg extending into the foot. In the idol in Daniel 2 the iron extends into the feet that mingle with clay. In this partial fulfillment the legs of Daniel 2: Nabonidus and Belshazzar co ruled (2 legs) and they mixed church craft into their reigns. Nabonidus abandoned Babylon to his son while he went to Saudi Arabia to build temples to the moon god. And Belshazzar took the gold cups and vessels that had been dedicated to God to use them at his drunken orgy the night he fell. They both mixed churchcraft and statecraft.



The prophet Jeremiah states:



Re: Nebuchadnezzar the head of gold according to EGW


The context of EGW's quoting Daniel 4 can be linked to Kings Neriglissar (brass), Nabonidus, and Belshazzar (iron):



Re: Nabonidus and Belshazzar iron legs that extend into and mix with clay in the feet mixed churchcraft and statecraft.

How do Nabonidus and Belshazzar represent iron legs mixed with clay? (wasn't it feet, anyway, not legs?)

Not communicating well, sorry

I think its clear we are at the time of the end, so its unveiled , or its of little value and does not hold true to the clear meaning of Daniel 12.

Yes, we are at the time of the end.
Since most of the previous posts were on Daniel 2, I'll comment on that.

DANIEL TWO

The image is BABYLON -- spiritual Babylon that is -- that was developed throughout history.

1. It began with ancient Babylon as it's head,
2. Moved to Media Persia with it's "infallible laws" (chest)
3. Advanced to Greece whose philosophies and gnostic thinking formed much of modern religious thinking. (thighs)
4. Moved on to pagan Rome with its military might (legs)
5. Then splintered into 10 Divisions that mixed state might with religious traditions.

The whole image is the Babylon we still find in the end of time.

It is the counterfeit "metal man" trying to have dominion.
The fallen power -- Come out of Babylon my people.

It will again be erected and the command will go forth that ALL must bow down and worship it or be killed.

Our worship belongs to the REAL Divine man --Jesus Christ who is depicted in Dan 10:5-7,
Dan. 12:6 "the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river", whom Daniel called "My Lord." 12:7
And He will deliver His people. Just as He delivered Daniel's three friends in the fiery furnance.

THE FIRST BEAST IN REVELATION 13
This beast continues from Daniel's beasts in Daniel 7 --

1. Mouth of a Lion -- Babylon talk
2. Feet of a Bear -- Persia's infallible laws
3. Body of a leopard -- philosophies and gnostic thinking of Greece
4. It's a beast -- Rome (which has absorbed into itself the former kingdoms)

It has seven heads
The pioneers identified these as the seven political phases of the Roman Empire.
Kings, Consuls, Decemvirs, Dictators, Triumvirs, Emperors, and Popes,

They felt the heads had to relate to the beast to which these heads were attached.
This beast that had already absorbed Ancient Babylon, Persia, Greece, into itself is ROME.
Thus the heads must be governments of Rome.

Though it seems to me the seven divisions mentioned as governments of Rome are rather arbitrary.
Yes, at first it was a kingdom in which there was a succession of seven kings from 753-509 BC.
But in 509 BC Rome entered into a Republic which had consuls, Senates, two parties, etc., the dictators were only temporary when there was an emergency with six month limit. But the government at that time (509 - 27 BC) was considered to be a Republic.
As Rome conquered more territory rivalry for power emerged and so they did have a triumvir, three who fought with each other to take control. For a brief moment it seemed Julius Caesar won, but he was assassinated. This all led to Rome becoming an Empire, Caesar Augustus being the first emperor in 27BC. Yet even after it was an empire it was often divided into two, three or even four sections. Constantine is an example, as he conquered his co-rulers in different sections of the empire to become sole emperor. Later it was again divided into east and west. So not sure those seven phases the pioneers ascribed to the heads are that clear.

The interpretation that the seven heads are connected to Rome, Roman heads, however makes sense.
But do we go all the way back to 753 BC to identify these heads?

Yet, the prevailing interpretation today goes all the way back 605BC for it's heads., some even throw in Assyria and/or Egypt which goes back even further -- like 2000 years before Christ!!!
I'm not convinced Revelation is moving that far back, it's dealing with issues from John's time to the end.

I remember reading an article suggesting the seven heads represented seven phases in papal history, which I thought quite interesting. They adapted their idea from the seven divisions Richard McBrien makes in his book "Lives of the Popes".

1) 100AD -312 AD Early church bishops of Rome seeking power over the other bishops. As early as 190 AD we see Victor, bishop of Rome, assuming to dictate to the other bishops concerning when they must observe Jesus death and resurrection. His forceful and harsh action evoked a storm of protest, but the incident shows the growing belief that the bishop of the Roman church enjoyed some kind of primatial status in the church.

The first phase above was not yet "Roman" though, as the Apostle Paul mentioned iniquity was already working but being held in check, it isn't till the Roman Empire joined with the church that the Roman papal power was "let grow". (2 Thes. 2:7)

1st 312 -508 AD The bishops of Rome (popes) under the protection of the Roman Emperor.
With this support the bishops of Rome were set above all the other bishops. We have popes like Sylvester I, who supported Constantine's Sunday law, Pope Leo the Great, a strong advocate of papal authority. During this time the papacy was groomed for its role. In 495 Pope Gelasiu I assumed the title Vicar of Christ, and advanced the theory of "two swords" (referring to the authority of the pope in both the sacred and temporal spheres.

2nd 508 -800 AD Popes beginning their overseeing control of the west, with the aid of kings of the Franks. Western Rome having fallen to the barbarian tribes, the papacy starts to fill in the vacancy, and gradually withdraw from dependence upon the Eastern Emperor.

3rd 800 - 1000 AD The Caroline Empire, Pope Leo III crowned Charlemagne, the for runner of the Holy Roman Empire. . Stephen IV anointed a succeeding emperor (Louis the Pious) continuing the precedent of Pope Leo III that papal approval was necessary for an emperor to rule. There was a common understanding that no kingly power could judge the pope, and moral standards within the papacy weren't that good during these years.

4th 1000-1450 AD Papal Highest Time, Gregorian Reforms, Crusades, Persecuting power.

5th 1450 - 1798 The threat to their power from rise of Protestantism, Counter Reformation, to losing political power

6th 1798 - Present Modern Papacy (without the political power)

7th Restored Papacy (political and religious power)

This causes the problem in the reading of Revelation 17, as many Adventist try to shoehorn in Babylon as the first kingdom, but immediately are lost when they get to the "five have fallen".

Many have tried that route but it only muddies the waters even more and has basically been rejected by most Bible scholars and Adventist for the most part.

I am left with the only one that makes sense prophetically and historically.. https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/2013/12/the-seven-heads-of-the-beast-in-revelation-17

"THE SEVEN HEADS AS SUCCESSIVE EMPIRES
Based on biblical evidence, the interpretation that makes the most sense is that the seven mountains, upon which the prostitute Babylon sits, stand for the seven successive empires that dominated the world throughout history and through which Satan worked to oppose God.3 These empires possessed common traits of religious-political governance and coercion, which they used to cause harm and persecute God?s people.

As the angel further explains to John from his time?s perspective, five of these kingdoms have fallen, one is, and the seventh one would appear sometime in the future. As previously explained, this cryptic text has generated numerous speculative interpretations, primarily due to the interpreters? failure to note that the meaning of these successive kingdoms was explained to John in the context of his own time?not ours. Nowhere in the text does it indicate that John was transported to another time; the angel simply explains to him what he had already seen previously in the vision.

Therefore, the key to decoding the meaning of these seven heads lies in the sixth kingdom, which is described as ?is.? This ?is? refers to John?s time. John lived in the time of the sixth head?the Roman Empire. The five that had fallen were thus the empires that ruled the world and caused harm to God?s people prior to the time of John: (1) Egypt was the world power that enslaved and oppressed Israel, seeking to destroy her; (2) Assyria destroyed and scattered the ten tribes of Israel;
(3) Babylon destroyed Jerusalem and exiled Judah; (4) Persia almost annihilated the Jews at the time of Esther; (5) Greece oppressed and tried to destroy the Jews through Antiochus Epiphanes.

The seventh kingdom that ?has not yet come? refers to the medieval papacy that, from John?s time perspective, would be manifested in the future from John?s time?after the fall of the Roman Empire. The angel further explained that the scarlet beast itself is a part of the phase of the eighth head, the world power that is to come at the time of the end. Yet, it is one of the previously noted seven heads. Although this eighth head is one of the previous seven, it is considered a new power. Which of the seven? Most likely the seventh head, which previously experienced the deadly wound but comes back to life after its wound has healed.

This seventh power will reappear as the eighth head at the end of time and will exercise the same authority as it did during the Middle Ages. During the time of the eighth head, the scarlet beast carries the prostitute Babylon. We now live in the era of the seventh head, for the eighth head has not yet gained its power. However, it will appear on the world scene at the time of the end and will impose its rule on the inhabitants of the earth."

Rich H, I agree that what makes the most sense to me as well are the successive empires. While often the 7 mountains have been understood as the 7 hills of Rome, while this may be on one level, on a greater level is that empires had sacred mountains. In the Bible the true sacred mountain is Mt. Zion. The first counterfeit mountain was the tower of Babel. In college these 7 empires were presented as those ruling over God's people in place of a son of David, or from a son of David until THE son of David.

Both George McCready Price in his timeless book "The Time of the End" and my professors from AUC gave a suggestion that has imy pressed me. And when I was at Andrews we had a guest professor from Europe Peri Windandi (spelling?) who pointed out that the image of Daniel 2 can be broken up into 7 parts, and this has also been suggested by Stephen Haskell that Daniel 2 breaks into 7 parts. I see their 7 parts as at least compatible with the views on Revelation 13.

These would be

1. Babylon

2. Medio Persia

3. Greece

4. Rome

5. The Holy Roman Empire/Papal Supremisy -- The feet of iron and clay. In the Bible clay is what God molds. But here instead of being molded by God the clay is being molded by the iron, the state. Thus this is the world united in a church-state that was ruling in place of the son of David over God's people.

6. The Deadly Wound--the TOES of iron and clay: The beast is but the head is not. The crowns are on the horns, not on the head. The world is divided into independent states, some offering more freedom others more restrictive. This grows from the American and French Revolution (With the American Revolution offering freedom through good laws and liberty of conscience. The French Revolution seeing freedom as absence of law, and that the common people can't handle freedom, only the ?lite can, others sadly need to be controlled). While our art work divides the horns over the beast, they are basically on the 6th head (the deadly wound) but shares power with the 7th head, the deadly wound being healed and sharing power with the horns.

7. The Deadly Wound being healed-the attempt for the toes to join together, but which will not last long but end up in total chaos. As we read the details later in Revelation we find that the woman (the church) is riding the beast. We find the first to cry at the fall of Babylon are the merchants of the earth (the corporations) and we find a very long shopping list in the Bible, of expensive items from all over the world. This indicates a short period of the nations uniting, not by politics and military conquest, but by the independent nations uniting in economic cooperation submitting themselves to the merchants of the earth. Thus it is also an 8th head because it is so different from the military and political powers in the past. A time of relative peace and prosperity, but with a carefully balanced system that everyone needs to cooperate with so that it does not collapse. No room for even a small group who won't harm anything to go their own way. Everyone will either/and have to give up something in their conscience, or use external control psychology to pressure others to comply with the system. Religious people will no longer be able to ignore points in the Bible that does not fit their traditions over what they think inspiration should be; and thus Satan causes his last great deception to make of no effect the spirit of prophecy. The reasons why many Seventh-day Adventists give up Mrs. White's work will be the same reasons why the Christian church in general will give up the Bible. And why turn to this untrustworthy book or other writings, such as Ellen White's when we have "Jesus" right here among us as well as the Bible "writers" and people like "Mrs. White" as well as my dear sweet "grandma" all resurrected and living among us and telling us what to do.

Once again, Daniel teaches us that the 7th empire will only last a short time before collapsing into total chaos, and of course the blame will be placed on those who wanted to cling to the Bible and their conscience, and as we are going through the time of Jacob's trouble while the world is in a religious high, and where feelings rule people, those they blame will look like miserable people so let's put them out of their misery. And as we saw people willing to be active on January 6 and others on September 11, so this same idea will unite people for the universal death decree.

But then there will be the cloud, about half the size of a man's hand, a rock carved out without hands that will smash the image in the feet, and God's people will again be ruled by our true King, the "He" who was suposed to rule over us since Genesis 3:16 (we often apply the "He" to the Husband, but in his commentary on Genesis Jacques Doukhan points out that the poetry just continues from Genesis 3:15 and that the "He" is the promised "He" of Genesis 3:15. The true son of David. Our Lord Jesus!!!

In the end, I don't think it matters significantly whether people believe the seven heads are
--As the pioneers believed -- seven phases of Roman government
--As a few Adventists believe -- seven phases of the Roman papacy
--As some Adventists believe -- seven Empires in the world. beginning with Egypt
--As many other Adventists believe -- seven Empires beginning with Babylon.

Each of those four interpretations zero in on basically the same endpoint scenario of the Roman papacy's political power being fatally wounded, and reviving for a last display of power.

But which one brings the conflict for the church into the best focus?



Two of those interpretations place the point in time reference in John's day. Thus they already have five heads of the Roman/papal beast in the past before this beast even emerges from the sea, with the sixth head (pagan Roman) in operation in John's day, with seventh that is yet come; and continues a short space as the medieval papacy.

But let's look at these verses:
How do we interpret these verses
17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, which had seven heads and ten horns
17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Questions arising from the above verses:

Was John carried into another time?
To the time when the woman Babylon, is sitting on the scarlet beast?
To the time when the beast "is not" ( for it had received a fatal wound)?
That's why there is such astonishment in the dwellers of earth to see him ascending, coming back to life?

At what point "IS THE BEAST NOT"?

A lot of us take this as the reference point in time to which John was carried in the spirit.
The time when the beast was wounded (is not, yet is) when one of it's heads had a fatal wound.

With this reference point for time

-- those who say the heads are empires stick with Daniel's empires.
Five fallen -- Babylon, Media Persia, Greece, imperial Rome, papal Rome.
The papal head is mortally wounded, the beast is dead, (is not), yet is about to come out of the grave. Sixth head -- (some say America)
Seventh head -- Roman power restored. Beast is alive again.

Also with this reference point when "the beast is not"
-- those who say the heads are seven papal phases throughout the Christian era
Five fallen -- the political papal phases have all fallen,
This takes them up to sixth head when the beast (political part of the papacy) "is not",
the beast is dead, but the woman survived, she "is".
And to the astonishment of the people, the beast is coming out of the grave.
Seventh head -- restored papal political power.

Yes but just because they looked at prophecy with Babylon first doesn't mean all Bible prophecy must start there. This is what many of the Adventist are trying to do with Revelation 17, and does not work no matter how they try. Very curious to say the least, and I cannot believe it was given to us to cause such a dead end so to speak...

But why give it to us, if it is useless for prophecy basically a waste of the inspired words, I just won't believe God would do that. It has to be unveiled with clarity, or why give it to us...

Oh no, Revelation 17 is NOT useless prophecy. No, it is one of the most revealing prophecies on end time events, depicting the coalition of powers.

The identity of the seven kings that are past, is not the core of the message,
Though I do see a problem when we want to label all the kings as past identities that have already come and gone so far back it places the prophecy in the dusty hills of antiquity. Both the "Egypt" start point, and the ancient Roman government interpretations, really don't leave much of ANYTHING for us in the present time.
That explanation Rick gave ended in 1798 when the last, seventh "king" received it's fatal wound.
That, my friend is what I see as an interpretation creating a dead end prophecy.

If we use the empires that both Daniel and Revelation talk about -- then Kevin's take on it makes far more sense than bringing in other empires from antiquity and having them all end in 1798.
Revelation is far more concerned with the two beasts in chapter 13, and another one in Rev. 11, not with ancient Egypt and Assyria.





Again let's look closer at the passage itself to find the clues

How do we interpret these verses
17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, which had seven heads and ten horns
17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Let's put ALL the information into the time frame when John sees this vision.

1. An angel with the seven last plagues asks John to "come" (end time clue)
2. John is taken into the wilderness. That's where the pure woman was last seen (Rev.12) but he doesn't see a pure woman there, she is somewhere else. (John sees a time that is after 1798)
3. He sees her on many waters merged with the mother of harlots, with Babylon. (This is hinting that John sees the vision portraying time after 1844)
4.. He sees a woman sitting on the beast. Note-- the beast at this point "is not" . He was, but "is not" (again the clue points to time after 1798)
5. The beast is re-emerging from the abyss (grave) The wound showing signs of healing
6. The sixth head of the beast is. The previous five have fallen. What was coming up in Europe around 1798?
7. The ten European horns don't have crowns yet, (their crowns were removed around 1798) they will receive crowns for a short time.


The time is being identified, and it's not John's time!
It is depicting a time when it se the beast is not. ( it was, it is not, but is coming alive again}
The deceptive part -- the Papal power does not look like a threat at this point
The 10 horns don't have crowns

John sees the "setting" of this vision sometime between 1844 and the end.
Thus the 6th "King that is" and the "beast is not" phase, crownless horns are during this time.

So it's not confusing at all to see these heads as the dominant state power oppressing the true believers in God.

Five fallen by 1798
1. Babylon
2. Persia
3. Greece
4 Imperial Rome
5. Papal Rome

6. The sixth head is in control while the Papal beast "is not", the fifth head having been stripped of it's political power and its ability to use force over nations is now out of commission.
This sixth head is the one that removed the crowns from the horns, and took away the state power from the papacy to rule over religion.
It is depicted in Rev. 11:7 as the beast coming out of the bottomless pit, that fueled the French Revolution (and other revolutions) based on liberty, equality, fraternity etc. movement in its various forms. Government power in many countries was greatly changed.
The beast has just laid down its arms and shifted his method of attack from a more head on attack, to a scientific, philosophical attack on God's truths.

7. The beast regains power and once again takes up arms in a new world order, with the papacy leading the coalition -- papacy regains political power to enforce it's mandates, horns receive crowns for a short time and give their support to the beast, Protestantism gives their support to papal mandates, Babylonian religion is imposed upon the world. We've come full cycle from Babylon to Babylon.

8 The eighth is the power behind this whole system, that fully manifests itself in the end -- the power from beneath, the dragon himself -- the whole system was orchestrated by the dragon to bring worship to himself (Rev. 13:4) And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast..." whose aim from the beginning was to (Isaiah 14:13) "exalt my throne above the stars of God, I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation in the sides of the north." He will appear pretending to be Christ.

All unite in one massive coalition, to war against Christ,(true Christianity) but the Lamb will win! (Rev. 17:14) The Lamb shall overcome them for He is King of kings and Lord of lords.
And the ten horns find their new crowns are a deception, and they attack the whole Babylonian counterfeit religious system that has deceived them, they attack the harlot woman with a viciousness of agony. (Rev. 17:18) (See Great Controversy page 655)

I think this last was in agreement with what Kevin said, right?

The same general idea, Yes.

However, I don't see atheism as coming out of the bottomless pit. Though definitely a power controlled by satan.


Notice, "through the medium of the papacy". Meaning, the papacy is not the beast from the bottomless pit. Neither is the new "manifestation".

The beasts themself are earthly powers. The dragon is that old serpent the devil. Rev.12:9,
When the the beasts (earthly powers) give themselves over to the dragon to do his bidding they are working out the agenda of the dragon.

Revelation 12 tells us this whole war is being orchestrated by the DRAGON
But through Jesus salvation is brought to the world.


Revelation 12:4, 7-10 The dragon himself, is the one who started the war against Jesus before creation, taking a third of the angels to side with him, and it is the dragon himself with his angels, that was defeated by Christ at the cross. His defeat by Christ brings salvation for all who believe in Christ.

The dragon works through each of the heads to destroy Christ's plan of salvation and rob Christ of the ones He came to save --
Revelation 12:4 the dragon seeking to devour the child (Jesus) as soon as He is born -- he works through the power of imperial Rome in his attempts to kill Jesus at birth, and later crucify Him.

Revelation 12:6,13,14 Dragon, through papal Rome persecutes the "woman" 1260 years.

Revelation 12:16 The Dragon sends out floods of armies (crusades, etc) using the papal powers, against the woman,
but the earth beast helps the woman. Beasts can be good, because the beast of the earth swallows the flood and gives the woman a land where the flood of persecution doesn't reach her.

Now the dragon is loosing ground and comes up with new plans.

God is also very much at work to break the power through which the dragon is keeping the population in the dark. With the rise of Protestantism, the invention of the printing press, the renaissance, people weren't bowing to his fifth papal "head" as readily, people were reading God's Word and finding the equality and liberty God offers through belief in Jesus Christ. Resistance to the tyranny of papal and kingly powers is rising. The fifth head is loosing control, and a new land is sheltering people who seek to serve God.

So the dragon develops another beast (a European power) It believes in freedom, equality and fraternity but the dragon leads them to believe all the religious wars, all that blood shed and oppression in the years passed was due to the BIBLE and the God that inspired Bible. The Bible was proclaimed as evil and God was despised or declared non-existent. This beast was/is a human power but it's war on the Bible and God, was fueled by the dragon. It was largely implement by Jesuit influence, who had just been banned by the pope who was under pressure from kings to ban them. This beast of Rev. 11:7 is his sixth head.

In America the land beast was born with the same liberty/equality/fraternity concepts. But in America it was built on Protestant principles. America was raised by God to bring religious freedom to the world, so truth could spread to the world.
Yet as John Adams stated that: ?Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.?

This beast with lamb like horns was a thorn in the dragon's program. So Satan developed the counterfeit liberty/equality/fraternity beast, taking God and the Bible out, and the nation that took the bait hook line and sinker was France. Take God and the Bible out of that government style and it will utterly fail.

In America, with which upheld Protestant freedom and moral standards, the "freedom, equality, fraternity style was a success. (Not perfect by any means, but still great and blessed) Religious freedom and the ability for individuals to pursue their goals, flourished. The dragon has been working for a good 200 years to take down America and get it under the control of his papal beast. He couldn't stop the spread of the Bible, the Bibles were multiplying everywhere.
So the sixth head as the dragon's alley is this European beast from Rev. 11:7.
America is infiltrated hugely both by the papal beast working to regain it's influence and the athiest beast, working to destroy it's government, and America is about to fully repudiate it's constitution and give its power to the papacy. When they merge we will find ourselves under the seventh head -- the papal led coalition.

Then the dragon's full fledged war (Rev. 12:17) using the earthly papal led powers merged in the seventh head, will rage against those who have the testimony of Jesus and keep His commandment!

The eighth is the dragon (the power behind the whole thing) who appears pretending to be the long expected Messiah.

But if nothing can be understood with everyone all over the place, then its not much use to give to the world, its a confusion of nothing, a dead end for any understanding of prophecy. I dont think God would send us into a boxed canyon with no purpose or way to proceed in the timeline..

I agree, unity of understanding of prophecy is ideal. But we must agree on truth, not just because a professor at Andrews University writes an article in the Ministry Magazine.

Is Ranko Stefanovic (the author of the article Rick posted) the final word? Is his view here giveing the understanding of the majority of Adventists on this particular subject? Yes, there are some who do promote it. But there are some pretty big hurtles to accept the position Stefanovic gives, Not to denigrate Ranko, he has some good ideas and studies, but on this point I think he steps out of the correct lines of prophecy.

Nor do I understand why you think following the prophetic outlines as given in Daniel and Revelation (two books that compliment each other) would be seen as leading into a "boxed canyon with no purpose or way to proceed in the timeline??????? It is when we go outside the prophetic outlines in Daniel and Revelation that I find we end up in a "boxed canyon with no way to proceed". It runs out of heads by 1798.

The 1Egypt, 2Assyria,3 Babylon, 4Media/Persia, 5Greece, 6Imperial Rome, 7Papal Rome, interpretation not only puts all the heads in the past before we even enter the time of the end. It adds nations that Dan&Rev don't talk about?

So does John also see the woman riding the beast before 1798, as the scene opens with him seeing the woman on the beast.

But for now let's just see if the interpretation of the seven heads being powers starting with Babylon is accepted by many Adventists?

George McCready Price (1870-1963) devoted most of his work to a defense of creation and a worldwide Flood, yet he also wrote two well respected books on the prophecies of Daniel (The Greatest of the Prophets 1955) and Revelation (The Time of the End 1967) Chapter 3 is where he talks about the seven heads.
Read his book TIME OF THE END

ROY ALLAN ANDERSON (1895-1985)
Unfolding the Revelation.

Henry Feyerabend (1931-2006)
Revelation Verse By Verse


Mervyn Maxwell (1925-1999) in his book: "God Cares" comments there are several interpretations out there. He, however favors the, Babylon, Media Persia, Greece, Roman Empire, Christian Rome, as the five fallen. Christian Rome Wounded as the "one is" and Christian Rome Revived as "the one is coming" and gives many reasons why he belives this to be the best interpretation. p. 473-476

Having read George Price's comment


I was curious as to why he thought this "Catholic interpretation" was dangerous?
There doesn't seem to be any clear definite interpretation in their writings.
The one thing they emphasize is that the Papal church is not part of the prophecy. Definitely not one of the heads, etc.

But what I found:
Some of their scholars believe the text
17:11 The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
means, yes, the seven heads are seven mountains (kingdoms)
"and" there are seven kings"
The prophecy is enlarged to say there are seven mountains AND seven kings.
According to some the seven kings are an added feature, not another symbol for heads.
So even though the seven heads are seven empires
there are also seven kings.

So according to that interpretation, then, the seven heads are kingdoms supposedly Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, thus the prophecy's sixth head and "NOW" is Rome
When the Barbarians sweep down then Rome is "NOT"
The seven kings, some Catholic writers said, were seven emperors of Rome. Different ones named including Nero, Vespasian, Titus, Domitian. Often ending with Hadrian who gave Israel a real death blow.

Who do they say the woman represents?
Quote: The woman is not Rome, what city does she represent? The answer, I would suggest, lies in the fact that Jesus was killed in her. That can only refer to one place, Jerusalem, and the rest of the book confirms this for us. For example, if we turn back to the passage that mentions the seven hills, we find that it perfectly fits Jerusalem?s political situation before the city was destroyed by Rome in 70 AD. Just as the woman in that passage is propped up by the beast, so too were the rulers of Jerusalem supported by the Roman authorities. They ruled by Rome?s permission and with their backing. Their city was destroyed by Rome. End quote.


Well, though the above is a confusing bits and pieces of what I gleaned from their writings, and by far not the only ideas they express, the one thing that is obvious, their views are part of the counter Reformation. No way must any of this point at the Papal church, any alternative interpretation is better


So why was George Price warning against that method of identifying the seven heads?
Seems it was the putting of it all back into John's day, and thus inadvertently supporting the preterist interpretation. Only the seventh head was not named and it could easily be pulled into the preterist interpretation.

Everyone of these views have issues, and you can be sure the devil knows it, and it was the first thing that is brought up when you try to present the Mark of the Beast/Mystery Babylon understanding. So its a problem at the least.

It seems to me, that the only safe way to interpret the seven heads/seven kings/seven mountains, is to follow the rather obvious pattern in Daniel and in Revelation 13. It is a pattern oft repeated in these two books, why would we deviate from it in chapter 17?



The composite beast of Revelation 13 reiterates the prophetic symbols of Daniel 7.
Three kingdoms preceded Rome (Babylon, Media Persia, Greece)
The culture and religions of the conquered empires were absorbed into Rome.

The apostle John, in Rev. 13, simply picked up the prophetic symbolism of Daniel 7, and basically tells us this is the fourth beast of Daniel 7, then proceeds with advanced information on future events.

We understand that the throne of ROME passed from the emperors to the papacy. That's the little horn in Daniel seven, but in Revelation 13 it is presented as another head that receives a deadly wound and the beast is put out of commission for a time. Yet, it is not the Roman church that is out of commission, it is only the POLITICAL element to enforce by the sword of the land their mandates, that was removed from the papacy.
THE BEAST (not religion) was fatally wounded. The church could not be a beast, without political power.

Now -- we have five heads, and when the beast receives it's deadly wound, all five of those heads have fallen. Babylon, Media Persia, Greece, Imperial Rome, Papal Rome.

Now to Revelation 17
When can it be said "THE BEAST IS NOT"

Rev, 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and IS NOT; and shall rise

There is no way, if one follows the sequence of Rev. 13, can we say that verse describes things in John's day. The "beast" was in full armor and strength in John's day.
The beast received it's deadly wound back in 1798. That's when its "IS NOT" phase began.

THE SIXTH HEAD

So five heads fell by 1798, the beast is fatally wounded he Is NOT.
Yet one head "IS" (a sixth head)
What head is operating without the "beastly power to enforce religion with the sword" but is still an agent of the beast?
What head "IS" while the beast "IS NOT"?

It has to be part of the European beast. Ignoring that is where confusion in interpretations come in.
Because it is not logical to jump the ocean and call America the sixth head in this sequence.
And when people try to put America in as the sixth head back in 1798 it just doesn't fit.

But there is another beast (mostly ignored) that comes up in Europe exactly at the same time the fifth head receives it's deadly wound. That beast is found in Revelation 11: 7. It arises during the French Revolution. It's position is not to enforce a religion but to destroy trust in God and the Bible. The Papacy tried to keep the Bible away from the people. But now the Bible was available, so another power came up to destroy people's faith and trust in the Bible and in God.

This sixth head is now -- in our time pretty much in control of things. The nations that once were looked upon as being "Christian", are now mostly secular, putting very little value on the Bible or on faith. Secularism, immorality, a culture called Sodom and Egypt, crucifying the Lord afresh.

BUT THERE IS A SEVENTH HEAD.
The head that EGW has pointed out all along.
The beast being healed! Papal political power restored,
The beast, regaining "the sword" of civic authority to enforce religion.
I see Christians even Adventists thinking the sixth head is a "new" final crises, and EGW was too much influenced by 19th century thinking --
No -- the seventh head will come suddenly, with a big backlash against the sixth head.

It will be only for a short time.

THE EIGHTH
He's not a head.
It is the dragon himself, the power behind all seven of those heads.

Ok, so lets go through Revelation 17 and see what perspective that John is seeing, and I will try to put it in its correct context..

Revelation 17
King James Version
1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

This is the christian church already changed and riding the beast at Rome, Papal Rome, and John will be shown the judgement that will happen to it. I think we can agree that John is amazed at the change from the pure woman of Revelation 12, into a harlot full of abomination. Now the angel begins to identify both of them.

7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

So the beast John saw, "was, and is not", so that gives us the clue that this is the beast of the "deadly wound" of Revelation 13, and repeated in verse 9, "behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is." So, lets see if this is the perspective of 1798, with the next verses.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

So in 1798, we had the following fallen beasts, Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, Pagan Rome and lets say Papal Rome with the wound is the last of the five. So in 1798 we have the image of the Beast risen up, America as the sixth,. so that would fit "and one is".
But now we have "and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space", so John is not seeing it from the perspective of 1798, and that leaves us with a question mark for the seventh beast. Could it be the UN, New World Order? Its a short time, so it could be, but we cant say for sure.

So now we have "the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth", which matches up to the fifth beast, that "was, and is not", which is linked to the beast of the "deadly wound" of Revelation 13, the Papacy.

This would line up as the as the following:
Babylon
Media-Persia
Greece
Pagan Rome
Papal Rome
America as the image to the Beast
UN/New World Order?
Fully restore Papal Rome

Then we have a final but short event which looks like the end...

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

The "one hour" in prophetic time would be around two weeks, and it seems they unite to fight against Christ at the Second Coming, and then you have the angel giving a final review of some key points..

15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

It looks like at the end, the nations will turn against the 'Harlot' or apostate church but still follow the Beast.

What is everyones thoughts..

Where did you get the 1 hour=2 weeks

Rick,
Good, I think we agree then on the first five heads(as we see them depicted in Daniel 7, with Papal Rome as the fifth head that received the deadly wound)

The apostle John, in Rev. 13, simply picked up the prophetic symbolism of Daniel 7, and basically tells us this is the fourth beast of Daniel 7, then proceeds with advanced information on future events --the fatal wound of the beast, an intermittent period, and the beast restored working together with the American beast in the final crises.


Rev, 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and IS NOT; and shall rise

The beast received it's deadly wound back in 1798. That's when its "IS NOT" phase began.

THE SIXTH HEAD

So five heads fell by 1798, the beast is fatally wounded he Is NOT.
Yet one head "IS" (a sixth head)
What head is operating without the "beastly power to enforce religion with the sword" but is still an agent of this European beast?
What head "IS" while the beast "IS NOT"?

It has to be part of the European beast. Ignoring that is where confusion in interpretations come in.
Because it is not logical to jump the ocean and call America the sixth head in this sequence as America (though it is definitely involved, is for many centuries operating in a lamb like capacity standing firmly AGAINST the Roman beast)
Rev.
12:16 And the earth helped the woman,
-- it was the beast from the earth (America) in which the "woman" finally found refuge.
And when people try to put America in as the sixth head back in 1798 it just doesn't fit.

THE BEAST OF REVELATION 11:7 is the SIXTH HEAD
(it's NOT the one in the second half of Revelation 13 that is the sixth head)

There is another beast (mostly ignored) that comes up in Europe exactly at the same time the fifth head receives it's deadly wound. That beast is found in Revelation 11: 7. It is clearly defined in Great Controversy chapter 15 as Atheism -- a governing power. It arises during the French Revolution. It's position is not to enforce a religion but to destroy trust in God and the Bible. The Papacy tried to keep the Bible away from the people. But now the Bible was available, so another power came up to destroy people's faith and trust in the Bible and in God.

This sixth head is now -- in our time pretty much in control of things.
The dragon has been working for over 200 years to take down America and get it under the control of his papal beast. The beast knows it needs America in order to achieve it's beastly life of enforced worship once again.

The sixth head IS NOT THE IMAGE OF THE BEAST.
The sixth head is using the principles of Balaam -- destroy Christian principles in America and America will fall. That is the work of the sixth head -- the atheistic controlling power.
The sixth head is RIGHT NOW in full power in all the countries that once held Christian principles.

The nations that once were looked upon as being "Christian", are now mostly secular, putting very little value on the Bible or on faith. Secularism, immorality, a culture called Sodom and Egypt, crucifying the Lord afresh.

BUT THERE IS A SEVENTH HEAD.
The head that EGW has pointed out all along.
The beast being healed! Papal political power restored.
The seventh head comes into power when America is brought low by the sixth head.

That's when we see "the daughters" actively joining the "mother" and mounting the political beast to BRING BACK MORALITY!
Notice in Revelation 13 -- once America repudiates Protestantism and it's constitution THEN it makes an image to the Roman Beast. It operates with the Roman Beast. Makes laws in honor of the beast. "causes all on earth to worship the first beast," (13:12) "had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. " (13:14)

America JOINS and gives military power to the papacy. It is this relationship that heals the beast.
The seventh head is the healed beast. It is the last crises.

America is also the false prophet -- leading the people of America and the whole world back under papal primacy. deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast )13:14)beast, regaining "the sword" of civic authority to enforce religion. And all the world will wander after the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

THE DAUGHTERS -- Protestants churches that left Papal Rome, resisted Papal Rome, now denounce their protest, join hands with papal Rome and take control of the government.
The "harlot and her daughters' are about to take control of the "beast" and fully restore him.

The seventh head will come suddenly, with a big backlash against the sixth head.
Already we see the "daughters" protestants, shaking hands with the "harlot" Rome, and climbing on the back of civil power to enforce morality. We are on the very brink of the seventh head rearing up it's fearful face, bringing life and vicious vitality to the beast.

It will be only for a short time.


I don't think we should bring in any unbiblical power. (UN, One world government, etc)
Just stick to the Bible -- it's all there.

The heads --
Five fallen -- Babylon, Media Persia, Greece, Imperial Rome, Papal Rome,
The sixth -- Atheism is the governing power to prepare the way for the seventh
The Seventh -- Restored Papal Roman beast, using chiefly the power of America as well as the "ten European horns".
.

It's happening before our very eyes.


TEN EUROPEAN HORNS
Right now kings in Europe don't have much power, but apparently they will be given dictatorial power for a short time in the near future.

They will at first support the seventh head, but when God steps in they will realize they were deceived and turn on the harlot and her daughters.

THE EIGHTH
IS NOT A HEAD.
The beast only has seven heads.

17:3 a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goes into perdition.
13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast:

What power was present in all seven heads? Who gave them power? Bible is plain, it is the dragon, Satan, that old serpent the devil. It's his beast, created in his likeness, controlled by him.

And according to scripture the beasts and the dragon end up in the lake of fire

Its prophetic time, so applying the day-principle, each day is a year and 1 hour would be 1/24 of the day/year or 15 days,

Well, lets put it to seven kings as that is what Revelation 17 lays out.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

But you have "the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth", which matches up to the fifth beast, that "was, and is not", still is linked to the beast of the "deadly wound" of Revelation 13, the Papacy.
So France/French Revolution as the sixth just doesnt fit, but America with a image that is trying to "destroy Christian principles in America" is here now as we clearly see and they are doing it with sweeping power.
The seventh is a unknown, thats why I put UN/New World Order, but I agree it will come up for a short time, and we should see it soon and recognize it, but clearly we see the Eight is " the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven". So whether the Dragon/Satan, it is linked to Papal Romes deadly wound, with the "that was, and is not".

This would line up as the as the following:
Babylon
Media-Persia
Greece
Pagan Rome
Papal Rome
America as the image to the Beast
?
Beast "that was, and is not"

Thanks for your reply!


Here's one point in which I see confusion --

In the seven headed beasts of Revelation a beast does not represent A kingdom.
Each of those seven heads represents a kingdom in the history of the beast.
The seven headed beast symbolizes seven kingdoms spanning earth's history.


In Daniel 7, Rev. 11:7, as well as the earth beast of Daniel 13,
each beast represents ONE kingdom.
1 LION- Babylon -- government controls religion
2 BEAR -Media Persia - government controls religion
3 LEOPARD - Greece - government controls religion
4 beast - ROME - government controls religion
5 with stout horn - Papal Rome. Religion uses government power
6 Rev. 11:7 beast - Atheism takes over government taking away religious control of governments
7 Rev. 13 Two horned beast - America restores religious control of government, protestants in union with papists.

Those beasts are all symbolic beasts representing ONE kingdom each.

BUT
THE SEVEN HEADED BEASTS represent ALL seven individual beasts.
They are a conglomeration of all seven kingdoms.
A SEVEN HEADED BEAST does not represent a single kingdom.
A seven headed beast represents a the whole history of KINGDOMS (all seven of them)


Sorry if I didn't explain it more fully, but no, the eighth is not head
The number "eighth" is not another mountain, king, or head.
Yes, I know the NIV translates the verse as "The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king." But I don't think that's a correct translation.


The "BEAST" of Revelation 13 and 17 is not like the beasts of Daniel in which each was symbolic of ONE kingdom.
The "seven headed BEAST" of Revelation 13 and 17 is a conglomerate of ALL the single beasts.
Three leading up to Rome, the last four showing phases through which Rome passes.



America was NOT the image of the beast in 1798, nor has it been the image of the beast in the last 200 or so years.
America was NOT part of Rome, it very decidedly was against Rome.
What has changed that?
The image of the beast has not yet been formed, though I believe it is about to be formed.

One point I think is very important is this:
The image of the beast is not the atheistic/pagan power that is NOW destroying Christian principles.


So what is destroying Christian principles?

"The war against the Bible, carried forward for so many centuries by the papacy in France, culminated in the scenes of the Revolution. That terrible outbreaking was but the legitimate result of Rome's suppression of the Scriptures". So what happened in France was very much part of the agenda of the "beast". The beast saw the fifth papal head failing, so he got a sixth head to remove the papacy out of the way and work to undermine the scriptures, that couldn't be hid anymore, in another way.
The power to enforce religion was/is dead for the time being. But Satan will bring back the papacy as the "savior" of moral principles.

That's where I see a grave deception is now brewing in Adventism.
Many thinking this seeming victory of atheism and immorality is the final crises.
When the image is set up many Adventists will get on board the wagon, thinking they are helping bring back Christian principles not even realizing they are supporting in setting up the image of the beast.

It was in 1798 that the atheistic power began to exert control over governments. "Terrible were the scenes enacted in France when atheism became the controlling power". It is not "France per say it is the atheistic power taking control of governments.

After all the BEAST is all about government controlling or being controlled by religion. In 1798 the government was no longer controlled by religion or in control of religion, now atheism was grasping that control. Atheism has redefined "freedom of religion" as "freedom FROM Religion".

When America develops the image of the beast -- in the sight of the papacy, under papal supervision -- commanding the world to worship the Roman beast that was wounded and comes back to life, it will NOT be a movement to destroy Christian principles.
It will be a movement to ESTABLISH MORAL PRINCIPLES and return the nation (and the world) back to their idea of "God".

The sixth head -- atheistic powers controlling the governments in which Christianity was once embraced, is the one undermining the BIBLE and moral principles. That's what you are seeing NOW. ALL denominational Christians, are appalled by the depths of deprivation this causing. The image to the beast is not yet fully formed, though the "daughters" (protestant) and the "harlot" (papal) Christians are working hard to get control of the government to enforce morality and Christian principles again. And they will get it -- that is prophecy.

They will join hands to bring back what they consider Christian principles.

The image to the beast is not yet formed -- the churches as yet do not have control of the government. But the sixth head (atheism) is pushing so far into immorality that the reaction is about to happen and the seventh head -- the image of the beast, will be formed.


That is the seventh head.

AN EIGHTH

The eighth is not another head -- it was the power generating all seven heads.
Rev. 12 shows us the dragon with the seven heads and identifies it as satan, the devil.
It is he that gives his power to the seven headed beast according to Rev. 13.
The seven headed beasts show these seven heads are earthly kingdoms. The seven headed beast is symbolic of the whole conglomeration of ALL the single beast kingdoms. The seven headed beast is not symbolic of one more kingdom.

In the end -- when the seventh head appears and gains strength, satan himself will appear to claim the worship due only to God and he give great support to the "seventh head". He will pretend to be the Messiah coming to set up a millennium kingdom. BUT He will not succeed, though it will be an almost overwhelming deception -- all our senses will say, this is the Christ, but it isn't. The whole sinful mess will be destroyed.

The true Messiah will appear in the clouds of glory.