I've heard it commonly taught that God is omniscient or all knowing. I've also heard that he is the author of all creation. If God is all knowing then he knows the past, present, and future and "wrote" it all.

Since he knows the future and the choices we'll make, are our choices really our own? He claims to have given us free will, but since he has the future already, our decisions are already mapped out.

How is it possible to have both an all knowing God and free will?

Welcome to the forum!

As to the topic -- I have never seen any difficulty between God knowing all things, and free choice. So don't see why there would it be a problem?

In my studies, I have found that God not only knows what we will do, He also knows what each outcome would be IF we made a different choice.
In the Bible we see a lot of prophecies stating
-- if they choose to do this, then these things will happen
-- if they choose a different way, then these other things will happen.

Think of it this way --
Suppose you had a dream revealing exactly what a friend of yours will do, and the consequences of their actions would be bad.
Now you know exactly what that friend is going to do.
Would your knowing what they will do take away their free will?
Now, knowing your friend is about to make a bad choice, you'll probably try to persuade them to make a different choice? But in the end they make their own bad choice and suffer the consequences.

In a way, God is very much like that -- He knows what choices we will make, and yet He does His best (through the Holy Spirit, or through other people) to persuade us to make the right choice, but in the end we make our own free choice, His foreknowledge does not make the choice for us.
It is OUR choices that God knows -- it's not God's knowledge that makes the choices.

We, as humans have a tendency of trying to limit God .
But God is not only present in all time (past, present, future) -- He also operates in OUR time. In dealing with mankind He deals with us in OUR time in a very personal way.

In the dream scenario, whether or not I try to convince my friend to make the right choice doesn't matter. In the dream, they made the bad choice and since the dream is of the future, no amount of persuading is going to change their decision. Their choice is made before they make it. Its predetermined. If my attempts to convince them were successful, then the dream would have portrayed that. In real life, they would have made the right choice after I convinced them to.

When God gives us choices in life, He knows how we will respond. Our choice is already known so we are just following the script. Thus, free will is a construct of our imagination.

Knowing something does not predetermine it.
We know WWII happened, but our knowing it happened, did not predetermine it thus leaving the instigators of the war without choice -- they weren't just following the script, just because the people living in the future know it happened. They were writing the script, we just know it happened.

Neither does God, being able to see the future, predetermine the choices we make.
Our choices write the script.

The awesome thing is that God, even though knowing so many will make the wrong choices, keeps working with us, wooing, pleading with us to make the right choices.

He wants NONE to be lost, and has made full provision for all to have salvation, yet SO MANY refuse.

In the judgment, the sad truth will be clear that those who are lost, are lost because of their own choice.

Christ knew that Judas would choose to betray Him, but He still accepted Judas as one of the 12 disciples. Christ didn't interfere with his freedom of choice.

I'm not implying that God actively interferes with our free will. I'm implying that the choices we make have no value as choices since the answer is always already known.

Knowing something happened in the past is not the same as knowing the future. What I hear ashes saying is that if God knows all of the final outcomes, our perception of our "free choice" is pointless, because the end is actually already pre-determined.

Second point, God knowing something and Humans knowing something are not the same, either. God knowing it may in fact pre-determine it.

Welcome to the forum, ashes. If you're looking for answers and open exchange of ideas, this is maybe not the place. If you're a dyed-in-the-wool Adventist who can't think outside the box you'll fit right in.

The answer may already be known to God, but it isn't known to any of us.

Our choices, even though known to God, remains our choices, do they not?

Our past, present, and future choices, even though they are all known to God, still have both value and consequences.

Think of the consequence of the choice made by both Eve and Adam that resulted in their being banished from the Garden of Eden.

Nadi and Ashes
Yes, it's true, God does predetermine the outcome. His promises are sure. The future is in HIS hands and we can depend upon Him to fulfil it just as prophecy foretells.

But this does not negate the value of our choices.
We -- in our moment in time -- are free to make the choices and those choices make all the difference in our eternal future.

Yes, God has predetermined from the beginning that
those who put their lives in His hands, and trust in Him are His children by adoption, to the praise of the glory of Christ's grace, wherein he has made us accepted in the beloved.

It is also predetermined that those who reject Christ and follow the evil prince that works in the children of disobedience, will not inherit the eternal kingdom.

Indeed there is much that is predetermined by God -- He predetermined to let sin run its course, as an object lesson to the whole universe as to what the abject evil of living contrary to His laws is actually like.

Indeed, it is a great comfort to know that God KNOWS the future and will do all He has promised.

Yet -- this does not negate the value of our choices.
Rather it INCREASES the urgency and need to make the right choice!

It is OUR individual choice to choose to trust and follow Christ, Who will make us accepted in the beloved and place us with Himself on the winning team that leads to eternal, beautiful life. OR choose to follow the prince that works in the children of disobedience, and even if it might seem to have temporal advantages, the predetermined end of that team is misery and eternal death.

That's where our freedom of choice is extremely important!
We choose which team we are going play on -- that is our free choice ==
The end each team faces is predetermined. But which team we want to play on - is OUR CHOICE.
God knows what choice we will FREELY make. But it's still our FREE choice.

Deut 30:19 "I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both you and your offspring may live:
Joshua 24:15 choose you this day whom ye will serve; ...as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Ezek. 33:11 As]I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die,

All of which may, or may not, be true. However, it fails to address the question in the OP. As such it is simply another of your attempts at distraction because you fail to understand the point under discussion.

Christ also knew that Peter would deny Him three times before the cock crowed once.

Peter said that he would never do that.

Who was correct? Was it Christ or Peter?

Yes, Christ KNEW, he knows what we will do --

but Peter didn't turn around and say -- "you made me do it, you determined it, I really had no choice in the matter".
No! Peter took full responsibility of his own actions. He realized Christ saw his weakness better than he did -- it wasn't predetermined, it was simply that Christ knew it would happen because Peter was too self confident. Peter wept bitterly in repentance. He realized trusting in self was a great weakness, he needed to be constantly reaching out for divine strength in Christ.

The OP has nothing to do with Peter and Jesus.

May I suggest that if you cannot understand what the OP is querying you should desist from posting irrelevant answers. It serves only to reveal your shallow inability to grasp the deeper concepts and the implications of same.

I must confess that "ashes" is smarter than "Nadi" in that she recognized right away that no one here had either clue nor answers to her questions.

A more useful example would be the Observer Effect, which states that the very act of observing a system changes the system.

THEREFORE:

If an all-knowing (omniscient) all-powerful (Omnipotent) god knows the outcome, that fact thereby establishes the outcome. Hence "free will" is an illusion. We "think" we are choosing something freely, but our "choice" cannot be other than the outcome.

While God may know possibilities, God cannot know the outcome.

For example, if Christ knew that Peter would deny Him, there would be no point in asking Peter to pray. Peter had free will. Christ did not know what Peter would choose. But He did have a pretty good idea. Probably as the rest of the disciples who knew Peter.

Another example, If God knew Christ would succeed on earth, why did Christ go in and plead three times with Him for solving the sin problem? Was it a charade?

While that would solve a lot of the problem, I'm not sure that is the typical understanding of the Christian concept of "omniscient" as applied to God. I believe Christians feel that God DOES know the outcome.

So what do you base that perspective on?

One can feel many things. Doesn't necessarily mean it's true. And the majority is usually wrong on many things.

I would be very careful about saying what the Almighty God can do and can't do. That, IMO, would be treading on dangerous ground.

How do you explain all the prophecies of the Bible being fulfilled?

My concern is less with "what the Almighty God can do and can't do" and more with what he DOES and DOSEN'T do. Specifically, lets start with him doing what he said he will do, and doesn't do.


That would be true IF there was a God. But I am less and less of that inclination.

Whereas I was once a firm believer in God, due to his inaction and lack of care I no longer am, finding no evidence for any "caring god."

Besides, I am not interested in a god I have to defend. Should not a god worth serving defend me? Does not the stronger entity defend the weaker?

So if YOU have to defend god by telling me to be careful what I say about god, that's not much of a god.

How do you explain all the prophecies of the Bible being fulfilled?

That alone proves to me that God does indeed exist and cares very much for this world that He loved so much as evidenced in the wording of John 3:16-17.

Maybe He's an uncaring God. That doesn't mean He doesn't exist.

Two questions, not one:
Does God exist?
If so, is He a caring God?

Uncaring?


" For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

"But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8

"35 Can anything ever separate us from Christ?s love? Does it mean he no longer loves us if we have trouble or calamity, or are persecuted, or hungry, or destitute, or in danger, or threatened with death? 36 (As the Scriptures say, ?For your sake we are killed every day; we are being slaughtered like sheep.?) 37 No, despite all these things, overwhelming victory is ours through Christ, who loved us.38 And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God?s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow?not even the powers of hell can separate us from God?s love. 39 No power in the sky above or in the earth below?indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:35-39 NLT


All Scripture from:
https://www.biblegateway.com

Definitely caring!

It is the devil who would like people to believe that God doesn't care.

Theophilus, that's kinda tone deaf. Quoting scripture won't convince someone who doesn't believe in a caring god.
(And by the way, Daryl, your saying so doesn't make it so.)

The only thing that would convince me of a loving, caring god would be to see churches full of loving caring Christians whose lives have been changed by the Holy Spirit.

WHICH I DON'T SEE.

Until 2017 I attended one of the largest SDA churches in Alberta. When I stopped attending NOT A SINGLE PERSON VISITED, PHONED, TEXTED, OR REACED OUT IN ANY WAY, INCLUDING ANY OF THE PASTORAL STAFF.

******* STAFF EDIT *******

--one of the largest SDA churches in Alberta.--

Large churches are not generally full of close knit members. In large churches one can slip in and out for years without even being recognized. Smaller churches are often much more caring, because they need each other and work together simply to keep the church alive.

Also consider -- the members are all struggling people as well, at various stages in their relationship with God,(even those we may think have it all together) a lot of them burdened down with "the cares of this world".
We can't judge God by what struggling human beings are and do.
We need to seek for Him for ourselves.

I know God cares from experience. So many things in my life where I see God's leading and care, even when (and especially when) things were tough. It's something I know, but as you say, someone telling you this won't convince you -- it's something a person must experience for themselves.

Consider what someone else in that congregation could be thinking:
Some people come and some people go, making it hard to get to know people.

Some people start coming, and you start feeling you're getting comfortable with them, to get to know them, then they stop coming without even so much as a goodbye.

New people come, but I figure they are just like the rest, here today, gone tomorrow, so I don't bother trying anymore.


Nadi, churches are full, just full of sinners. They have hurts and disappointments and inconsiderations. But a lot of time, it may not be anything against you. They are worried about themselves, wondering why no one speaks to them, are friendly to them, nor acknowledge them.

But does people reflect God? They should, but is that really an indication of God's character or an indication of people's character.

Should God force people to be caring?

So here's the thing...

1. There is a whole church full of people.
2. Assume all, or at least most, of the people are sincere and want God to lead in their lives.
3. Assume that they have surrendered their lives to God's control. (They have chosen God.)
4. God has said that he will "come and dwell in them." He will send the Holy Spirit to dwell in them.
5. The "Fruits of the Spirit" are Love, Joy, Peace, etc.
6. Of themselves they can do nothing. (John 15:5, others)
7. Therefore ALL must come from God. This includes sincerity, surrender, commitment, etc. because we can't do it ourselves.
8. IOW, GOD has to GIVE US sincerity, surrender, commitment, etc. because we can't do it ourselves.
9. This will result in happy, helpful, kind, loving honest, supportive Christians who attract others by their wonderful lives.

Here's my question: Where are all these happy, helpful, kind, loving honest, supportive Christians who attract others by their wonderful lives. I have to say I haven't found any. God hasn't changed MY life, as you can see by some of my posts. I still have just as much anger, stress, and anxiety as before. And i NEVER feel any "abiding presence of the Holy Spirit." And he hasn't changed the lives of most people on this forum, as judged by YOUR posts. And surely God would have one or two people, in a church of 1000+, who hear his voice saying "Nadi is struggling. Reach out to him."

NOPE.

So until God ups his game...,I have no use for a god like that.

You do have a point in that it would be reasonable out of a large church, someone should have contacted you. How many do you think had your info?

But like Dedication said, maybe a smaller church would have a larger probability. I find in large churches, the people are fragmented and so if you aren't close to one of the fragments, you basically don't exist. Some large churches realize that and make efforts to ensure everyone is included in a smaller group. Some don't. Sorry you had a bad experience.

Consider Peter. He really messed up. Denied Christ. Then repented and Christ restated him among His followers. Peter was one of the leaders of the early church. He did miracles, healed people. He understood life after Christ. But then in Galations 2, Peter messed up bad and demeaned people and Paul had to rebuke him.

Why, what happened to Peter, who had been reflecting Christ, whose life had been changed, to cause this?

https://billygraham.org/video/lord-please-tell-me-what-youre-doing/


Above link is a short, one minute, excerpt from a sermon by Billy Graham back in 1973 --
Believing this can make all the difference in how one views the world.

Putting our trust in the LORD Jesus Christ!
I would add, to his list of what not to put our trust in ---to not put our trust in church members.

Anyway -- I fully believe the only hope for inner peace in this turbulent world of ours, is only in putting our trust in the LORD!

But how do you address the fact that despite putting all my trust into 'the LORD', I haven't felt different? No inner peace, no constant companion, nothing. After I put all my trust in Him, I have no more trust to give him. I literally could not be trying any harder

Every person has their own journey -- so it's difficult for me to answer your question. It is hard for someone who has found that inner peace and feels Christ is their companion to fully understand why someone else doesn't.
So I realize any answer I give may not be satisfactory to you.

Maybe the first thing ---
What does "trust" mean to you?
How does a person learn to trust?

Have we put our full trust in the Lord?

I'm afraid it's very easy not to trust.
It's far easier to worry. To try to make our own way without consulting with our God in prayer, or seeking His will. To depend more on things and people we can see, than on God, Whom we cannot see. And when those things or people that we love are taken away, we can have real real issues with "trust" even loosing the trust that we had. There are nights when we toss and turn with all kinds of thoughts of 'what should we do, how can we manage' torturing our minds.
Trust is not the natural way of the mind.

To trust takes "work". It needs to be cultivated all through our lives.
The first step is becoming intimately acquainted with our God, through prayer, bible reading, and meditating on His Word. This is not just learning ABOUT Him in a theological way, but seeing Him speak to us through His Word in a personal way. And prayer -- communing with Him in a personal way.


I know, I still have a long way to go before saying I fully and completely trust.
I can still get all tied up in knots with worry. BUT I claim the promise "He that has begun a good work in you will complete it .
I also know from many experiences, that when I find myself getting all stressed out, that I need to pray,. really talk it over with my God, give it over to Him. And I know He can lift that worry, and give peace , I have experienced it so many times -- and can only Praise Him, for yes He is a God Who cares.