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Does a 'Thought for Thought' translation or 'Dynamic Equivalence' make a difference?
#194659
02/19/22 09:29 AM
02/19/22 09:29 AM
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OP
Group: Admin Team
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,123
Florida, USA
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In todays world, the average person will say that in reading different versions of the Bible it really seems no different, and it appears that they say the same thing in their eyes. The thing is, that the NIV claims it is a 'Thought for Thought' translation or 'Dynamic Equivalence', but you have to ask, whose thoughts. That is why they may seem to say much the same thing and yet, just a few changes or even words can make a big difference.
Here is one that definitely makes a difference and its done in Gods Ten Commandments:
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates.
Do you see what they did. Its very subtle, but if you look "the Sabbath" is changed to "a Sabbath". This would broaden the scope of the command to cover ALL sabbaths including 'ceremonial' ones and not just the one made for man on the seventh day, and effectively create confusion within the Bible itself, for God did not create the world in seven days prior to each of the ceremonial sabbaths.
The "ceremonial law" was dealing with forms of worshipping God and with ritual cleanness and judicial precepts came into existence only with the Law of Moses and were only temporary. So the "ceremonial sabbaths" or high sabbaths", were seven annual biblical festivals or feast days, such as Passover which reminded the people of how God took care of them or His blessing to them.
So its a big difference from "the Sabbath" to "a Sabbath". but it would escape most readers, and the subterfuge remain hidden..
Last edited by Rick H; 02/19/22 09:30 AM.
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Re: Does a 'Thought for Thought' translation or 'Dynamic Equivalence' make a difference?
[Re: Rick H]
#194660
02/19/22 09:32 AM
02/19/22 09:32 AM
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OP
Group: Admin Team
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Here is a great explanation of the ceremonial sabbaths in the SOP... "Ceremonial Sabbaths Leviticus 23:7, 8, 21, 24, 25, 27, 32, 39. There are seven ceremonial Sabbaths as follows:- 1. 16th of Abib; 2. 23rd of Abib; 3. Pentecost; 4. 1st of the 7th month; 5. 10th of the 7th month; 6. 15th of the 7th month; 7. 22nd of the 7th month. These were annual Sabbaths, coming only once a year. As they always came on the same day of the month, they would come only occasionally on the 7th day of the week. ? Colossians 2:16, 17. These Sabbaths were all shadows of things to come. ? Hebrews 9:8-11. The types, or shadowy service, ceased at the cross. The Desire of Ages, 774. ? Matthew 27:50-51. At the death of Christ God rent the vail of the temple, thus showing that the shadowy service had ended. ? Hebrews 9:10; Romans 14:1-6; Colossians 2:16. All of these ceremonial Sabbaths were connected with the annual feast days. On the Passover Sabbath bitter herbs were mingled with the feast. The day of atonement was a fast day; the others were feast days. ? Leviticus 23:38. These annual Sabbaths were separate and distinct from the Sabbath of the Lord. ? Exodus 20:10. The seventh day of the week is the Sabbath of the Lord. ? Exodus 20:8-11. ?Meats and drinks? not connected with the weekly Sabbath. ? Exodus 20:11. Seventh-day Sabbath a memorial of creation. The Desire of Ages, 289. ? Isaiah 66:22, 23. As long as the world stands the memorial of creation will be celebrated. " https://m.egwwritings.org/en/book/978.1187
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Re: Does a 'Thought for Thought' translation or 'Dynamic Equivalence' make a difference?
[Re: Rick H]
#194663
02/24/22 11:57 AM
02/24/22 11:57 AM
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SDA Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,425
Midland
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Here is one that definitely makes a difference and its done in Gods Ten Commandments:
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates.
Do you see what they did. Its very subtle, but if you look "the Sabbath" is changed to "a Sabbath". This would broaden the scope of the command to cover ALL sabbaths including 'ceremonial' ones and not just the one made for man on the seventh day, and effectively create confusion within the Bible itself, for God did not create the world in seven days prior to each of the ceremonial sabbaths.
I understand what you are saying is a difference between "a Sabbath" and "the sabbath". One is capitalized, one is not, one refers to "a", the other refers to "the". "A" seventh day Sabbath vs. "the" ceremonial sabbath. Seems a little contradictory opposed and conflicting opposites. But what is the correct rendering? Other than an opinion of what it should be, can you show which is the correct English article to be used? I believe accurate translation is more important than one supporting an opinion of what is proper. Can you show what is accurate?
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Re: Does a 'Thought for Thought' translation or 'Dynamic Equivalence' make a difference?
[Re: Rick H]
#194677
03/10/22 08:14 PM
03/10/22 08:14 PM
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Re: Does a 'Thought for Thought' translation or 'Dynamic Equivalence' make a difference?
[Re: Rick H]
#194681
03/11/22 03:04 PM
03/11/22 03:04 PM
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Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,438
Canada
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An even bigger difference is in the phrase: Sabbath OF the Lord Sabbath TO the Lord The first tells us the Sabbath is the Lord's -- it's something he has given to us in which we are to enter into HIS Sabbath rest and find rest in Him The second suggests the sabbath is something we do to or for the Lord. It's our works which we must render
As we have just studied Hebrews 3 and 4 in our Sabbath School lessons, our weekly Sabbath rest from the works of life, is to renew our understanding of the spiritual rest which we can find only in our Savior, Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath day!
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Re: Does a 'Thought for Thought' translation or 'Dynamic Equivalence' make a difference?
[Re: kland]
#194682
03/11/22 04:10 PM
03/11/22 04:10 PM
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Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,438
Canada
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..., if you look "the Sabbath" is changed to "a Sabbath". This I understand what you are saying is a difference between "a Sabbath" and "the sabbath". One is capitalized, one is not, one refers to "a", the other refers to "the". "A" seventh day Sabbath vs. "the" ceremonial sabbath. Seems a little contradictory opposed and conflicting opposites. But what is the correct rendering? Other than an opinion of what it should be, can you show which is the correct English article to be used?
I believe accurate translation is more important than one supporting an opinion of what is proper. Can you show what is accurate?
The article "the" is a definite article. In Hebrew they add a "hey" to the noun if it needs a definite article. From my very limited ability to read Hebrew it appears to have the "hey" Thus "THE Sabbath" would be correct. We can also look at the Bible's treatment of the seventh day Sabbath -- is the Seventh day Sabbath a definite Day or is it just one honored day among many? If it is a specific day -- "THE Sabbath" is correct, if it just merges into a lot of roving honored days, then "A sabbath" would be acceptable. I fully see scripture saying it is a specific, definite day not just "a day". It is THE Sabbath! The fourth commandment ties it with creation, and at creation God sanctified one specific day out of the weekly cycle, the seventh, as a day of rest. This seventh day followed six evening and morning days. At Sinai, He again sanctified this same seventh day as His holy day, tying it to creation.
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Re: Does a 'Thought for Thought' translation or 'Dynamic Equivalence' make a difference?
[Re: dedication]
#194684
03/12/22 09:38 AM
03/12/22 09:38 AM
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OP
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,123
Florida, USA
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..., if you look "the Sabbath" is changed to "a Sabbath". This I understand what you are saying is a difference between "a Sabbath" and "the sabbath". One is capitalized, one is not, one refers to "a", the other refers to "the". "A" seventh day Sabbath vs. "the" ceremonial sabbath. Seems a little contradictory opposed and conflicting opposites. But what is the correct rendering? Other than an opinion of what it should be, can you show which is the correct English article to be used?
I believe accurate translation is more important than one supporting an opinion of what is proper. Can you show what is accurate?
The article "the" is a definite article. In Hebrew they add a "hey" to the noun if it needs a definite article. From my very limited ability to read Hebrew it appears to have the "hey" Thus "THE Sabbath" would be correct. We can also look at the Bible's treatment of the seventh day Sabbath -- is the Seventh day Sabbath a definite Day or is it just one honored day among many? If it is a specific day -- "THE Sabbath" is correct, if it just merges into a lot of roving honored days, then "A sabbath" would be acceptable. I fully see scripture saying it is a specific, definite day not just "a day". It is THE Sabbath! The fourth commandment ties it with creation, and at creation God sanctified one specific day out of the weekly cycle, the seventh, as a day of rest. This seventh day followed six evening and morning days. At Sinai, He again sanctified this same seventh day as His holy day, tying it to creation. And yet many Adventist see no issue when they read these new versions with " dynamic equivalence" or worse it is used in the Sabbath School lesson...
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Re: Does a 'Thought for Thought' translation or 'Dynamic Equivalence' make a difference?
[Re: Rick H]
#194692
03/15/22 01:22 PM
03/15/22 01:22 PM
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SDA Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,425
Midland
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Why did the translators put lower case on "sabbath"?
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Re: Does a 'Thought for Thought' translation or 'Dynamic Equivalence' make a difference?
[Re: kland]
#194698
03/19/22 07:26 AM
03/19/22 07:26 AM
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Why did the translators put lower case on "sabbath"? Can you give us a few examples?
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Re: Does a 'Thought for Thought' translation or 'Dynamic Equivalence' make a difference?
[Re: kland]
#194701
03/23/22 10:56 AM
03/23/22 10:56 AM
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SDA Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,425
Midland
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yep. Post #194663 Here is one that definitely makes a difference and its done in Gods Ten Commandments:
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates.
Do you see what they did. Its very subtle, but if you look "the Sabbath" is changed to "a Sabbath". This would broaden the scope of the command to cover ALL sabbaths including 'ceremonial' ones and not just the one made for man on the seventh day, and effectively create confusion within the Bible itself, for God did not create the world in seven days prior to each of the ceremonial sabbaths.
I understand what you are saying is a difference between "a Sabbath" and "the sabbath". One is capitalized, one is not, one refers to "a", the other refers to "the". "A" seventh day Sabbath vs. "the" ceremonial sabbath. Seems a little contradictory opposed and conflicting opposites. But what is the correct rendering? Other than an opinion of what it should be, can you show which is the correct English article to be used? I believe accurate translation is more important than one supporting an opinion of what is proper. Can you show what is accurate?
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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