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Re: Beliefs needed to understand Investigative Judgment
[Re: Kevin H]
#196260
08/18/23 02:13 AM
08/18/23 02:13 AM
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OP
Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
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Posts: 6,438
Canada
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As far as God is concerned, there are always other choices. The problem is that the sinner has closed and locked the door upon themselves and that there is nothing else that God can do to change them and to keep them from choosing eternal death. They would rather not exist than to live in a universe that has the law of self sacrificing love. They have prevented themselves from any second chance. They have destroyed their ability to choose. God can't do anything else for them unless he takes away their freedom and forces salvation upon them, but they would find it torture to live in a universe based on self sacrificing love, .... Basically I agree with you, though I kind of thought of it from a slightly different angle -- more from vindicating God's justice angle. One of the reasons for this whole display of Christ enthroned, the panoramic viewing of all Christ did to save each and every person, and their rejection of it, was to show that even when it was all so graphically and wonderfully revealed to them. they will still turn away and reject salvation. God fully understood the heart. and their omission from the book of life in the investigative judgment was 100% accurate, because they didn't want to be in God's kingdom, it was their choice.
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Re: Beliefs needed to understand Investigative Judgment
[Re: Kevin H]
#196261
08/18/23 02:51 AM
08/18/23 02:51 AM
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OP
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When the prophets saw God they felt like they were being burned alive, but found that they could not only survive the fire but thrived in it and hated to leave it. The lost refuses to have the life giving relationship with God that would lead to surviving and thriving in this fire. They pull back from the only source of life and thus are killed by the glory of God.
Now, are you saying that God's love, beauty, power and glory is too weak to cleanse the earth and that God needs something else that is strong enough to do it? It's true, when clothed with righteousness God's people will be very comfortable in the flaming glory of God's holiness. Those who cling to sin and refuse Christ's cleansing power can not survive in that flaming glory of God's holiness. Also, God can do anything with just a Word. He doesn't need the fire, He can command the earth to be cleansed and it would be so. However, God tends to use natural things, and scripture as well as Spirit of Prophecy depict a literal fire that fills the whole earth and burns everything up. Like the flood of Noah's time when it was a real flood of real water. (see 2 Peter 3) so in the end it will be a real fire. It may even be using the weaponry the lost have created in preparation to take the city (after all, every modern weapon would be known to some in that vast crowd) When the lost turn their weapons on Satan who knows what they use? They could ignite a lot of fire! "As it was in the days of Noah so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. Water will never destroy the earth again, but the weapons of God are concealed in the bowels of the earth which he will draw forth to unite with the fire from heaven to accomplish his purpose in the destruction of all those who would not receive the message of warning and purify their souls in obeying the truth and being obedient to the laws of God. {ST Jan. 3, 1878}
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Re: Beliefs needed to understand Investigative Judgment
[Re: dedication]
#196264
08/18/23 12:17 PM
08/18/23 12:17 PM
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SDA Active Member 2023
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Colville, Wa
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When the prophets saw God they felt like they were being burned alive, but found that they could not only survive the fire but thrived in it and hated to leave it. The lost refuses to have the life giving relationship with God that would lead to surviving and thriving in this fire. They pull back from the only source of life and thus are killed by the glory of God.
Now, are you saying that God's love, beauty, power and glory is too weak to cleanse the earth and that God needs something else that is strong enough to do it? It's true, when clothed with righteousness God's people will be very comfortable in the flaming glory of God's holiness. Those who cling to sin and refuse Christ's cleansing power can not survive in that flaming glory of God's holiness. Also, God can do anything with just a Word. He doesn't need the fire, He can command the earth to be cleansed and it would be so. However, God tends to use natural things, and scripture as well as Spirit of Prophecy depict a literal fire that fills the whole earth and burns everything up. Like the flood of Noah's time when it was a real flood of real water. (see 2 Peter 3) so in the end it will be a real fire. [b[It may even be using the weaponry the lost have created in preparation to take the city (after all, every modern weapon would be known to some in that vast crowd) When the lost turn their weapons on Satan who knows what they use? They could ignite a lot of fire[/b]! "As it was in the days of Noah so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. Water will never destroy the earth again, but the weapons of God are concealed in the bowels of the earth which he will draw forth to unite with the fire from heaven to accomplish his purpose in the destruction of all those who would not receive the message of warning and purify their souls in obeying the truth and being obedient to the laws of God. {ST Jan. 3, 1878} What I bolded in your post just reminded me of a book I bought back in the later 1970s written by a SDA guy by the name of Rene Noorbergen titled Secrets of the Lost Races. I just picked it up yesterday and began reading it again. There is evidence of nuclear warfare in our earths history. They have found glassified stone walls in Scotland and acres of sand turned to glass in the Sinai desert. There is example after example of advanced technology the postdeluvian descendants of Noah were able to reconstruct after the flood. Noah had a light that shown like the sun which he hung from the roof of the ark. If we think about it he had to have had a light source bright enough to light the entire interior of the ark for any openings lift open would have let water into the ark during that terrific storm. There are also examples of technology that have been covered up as they are considered to controversial to tell the public about. I think it it is still possible to find copies of his book on lime used book stores such as thriftbooks,com. I've bought books from there for years and found them reliable, I just looked and there is at least one copy of the book available,
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Re: Beliefs needed to understand Investigative Judgment
[Re: dedication]
#196297
08/21/23 09:45 PM
08/21/23 09:45 PM
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OP
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It's often asserted that Adventists build their belief of the Investigative Judgment on inconsequential information and on one misunderstood text. But this is a straw man! In reality, the Investigative Judgment is based on a broad understanding of scripture, and it is in agreement with a proper understanding of the Protestant gospel.
However, there is more than one way to understand the gospel within the broader scope of Protestantism ? There are several basic Biblical doctrines which determine how we understand the gospel which in turn determine our understanding of the Investigative Judgment -- indeed the Pre-Advent judgment is a logical and fully Biblical conclusion when those OTHER biblical doctrines are understood.
What are these beliefs that must first be understood before the Investigative Judgment becomes a logical conclusion, and necessary event in salvation's story?
1. The understanding of the great controversy between Christ and Satan (the dragon). This includes the whole understanding of creation and the beginning of sin, Satan's enmity against God's commandments, yet accusing people as not savable sinners before God. Revelation 12, Isaiah 14:12-15, Genesis 1-3, Zechariah 3, Matt, 4:1-11, Luke 10:18; Luke 22:31; Acts 26:18; Rev. 20:2; Ephesians 6:11-12
2. The understanding of freedom of choice. Arminianism not the Calvinism's concept of God's fixed predetermined predestination of who is to be saved and who is to be left unsaved. We need to understand the Biblical call to all, whosoever will, may come. Rev. 22:17, Mark 8:34; Joshua 24:15
3. Once saved is not necessarily always saved. The understanding that a person is free to turn away and stop following Christ even if at some point in their lives they accepted Him. Luke 8:14, Heb.6:4-6; Heb. 10:26; 2 Peter 3:17, Matt. 7:21-22, Ez. 18:24
4. The understanding that the dead are really dead until the resurrection. No immortal soul. All are asleep in their graves having not yet received their "eternal rewards" . Acts 2:35; 1 Thess 4:16-17; Eccl 9:5, Ps.146:3-4, Ps. 115:17, Rev. 11:18, Rev. 22:12
5. The understanding that God does judge. Daniel 7:9-10; Heb 10:26-27; 1 Peter 4:17; Romans 14:10; 2 Cor. 5:10; Eccl 3:17; Ez. 18:30-31; Acts 10:42; Romans 2:16; 2 Tim.4:1
Adventist doctrine of the Investigative Judgment is the natural outgrowth of the Arminian concept of people's choice as to whether they accept the offered salvation, as well as the doctrine of Soul Sleep. Everything else in our study of the investigative judgment is useful in understanding the doctrine and its relevance. Once those doctrines are understood the pre-Adventist Judgment is seen as a logical part of the salvation process, and the doctrine does not rest solely on the usual arguments discussed.
The necessity for a - judgment stands or falls on how salvation itself is understood. The scope of the sin problem as it relates on a cosmic scale, the aspect of our choice to follow Christ faithfully and the Biblical concept of the dead asleep in their graves awaiting a resurrection all fit with an investigative judgment.
Since Adventists have a biblical foundation for these concepts, it is easy to understand the essential nature of the Investigative or Pre-Advent Judgment.
So if people agree on those point, other details supporting the IJ become relevant as well. But if any of the five above points are denied, then the waters get more muddy. We've discussed the need to understand the first four listed doctrines, which, when misunderstood, bar the way to understanding the investigative (pre-Advent) Judgment. The fifth -- does the Bible say that God will judge prior to His second coming? The biggest resistance seems to come from the idea that Christians will be judged. Is this Biblical? We teach that Christ is judging (whether they are genuine) all those who profess to follow Christ. The wicked have already judged themselves. (john 3:18) Many Christians, however, look to John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment; but is passed from death unto life, and will claim that verse to say those who believe in Christ will face no judgment. We point out that the word "judgment" is often translated as "condemnation". Those who believe in Christ and live lives in harmony with their calling will not be condemned in the judgment. In fact we want our names to come up in judgment, Psalm 26:1-3 A Psalm of David. Judge me, O LORD; for I have walked in mine integrity: I have trusted also in the LORD; [therefore] I shall not slide. Examine me, O LORD, and prove me; try my reins and my heart. For thy lovingkindness [is] before mine eyes: and I have walked in thy truth. The investigative judgment is about determining who the genuine believers are, for many "come in My name saying "Lord, Lord," but they don't enter the kingdom. (see Matt. 7:21-23) All these texts below teach about Judgment -- (you can share more if you like) Which ones show that Christ does judge those that claim to be His people, to see if they are genuine? i] Daniel 7:9-10; Heb 10:26-27; 1 Peter 4:17; Romans 14:10; 2 Cor. 5:10; Eccl 3:17; Ez. 18:30-31; Acts 10:42; Romans 2:16; 2 Tim.4:1, Revelation 3:5[/i]
Last edited by dedication; 08/22/23 01:30 AM.
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