|
Forums118
Topics9,199
Posts195,611
Members1,323
| |
Most Online5,850
Feb 29th, 2020
|
|
|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
|
|
|
1
|
2
|
3
|
4
|
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
10
|
11
|
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
17
|
18
|
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
24
|
25
|
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
31
|
|
|
|
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
|
|
|
Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31947
04/17/03 12:45 AM
04/17/03 12:45 AM
|
|
|
Jesus said to the woman caught in adultery to go, and sin no more. quote:
John 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
Can we actually go and sin no more?
In other words, can we actually achieve sinlessness in this life?
Can we find our answer in the Bible on such an important question?
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31948
04/17/03 04:13 AM
04/17/03 04:13 AM
|
Most Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
|
|
Hi Daryl, This is a very good question. Given the case of the adulterous woman could it have been not to go and commit the same sins no more i.e; adultery in her case? During our lifetime as God strengthens our walk in Christ we do not commit (Entrust, Pledge oneself)to our sins that we use to indulge ourselves in, but The Word of God tells us the following: quote:
1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
quote:
1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
quote:
Phillipians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
So it is possible not to commit your same sins that you may have done as in the case of the adulterous woman. This is achieved through Christ who gives us our strength, BUT if you do sin whether it be the same sin or something else we know that Christ who is our advocate will present these sins to the Father and since we believe in Jesus Christ we are forgiven our sins because of the righteouseness we have in Christ Jesus, and we are cleansed by His blood, so basically we cannot achieve a sinless state because in doing so we are deceiving ourselves, calling God a liar and lying to ourselves (another sin). I hope I said this correctly as it is my own understanding of the passages above from the bible.
God Bless,
Will
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31949
04/17/03 05:09 PM
04/17/03 05:09 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Only born again believer can go and sin no more. And we are born again morally perfect. We begin at rebirth where Jesus began at birth. Thus, the promise to go and sin no more includes any and all moral sins. The growth we experience after we are born again involves maturing in the fruits of the Spirit and accumulating spiritual knowledge. But there is no such thing as an unknown moral defective trait of character in the case of people who have been born again.
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31950
04/17/03 06:03 PM
04/17/03 06:03 PM
|
|
|
I guess I need to be more specific as by we I mean a born again Christian. Is there truly any other type of Christian?
In other words, can a born again Christian actually achieve sinlessness in this life?
I am hearing a "no" answer from one and a "yes" answer from another. One thing is certain, it can't be both "no" and "yes."
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31951
04/17/03 11:32 PM
04/17/03 11:32 PM
|
Most Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
|
|
Hi Daryl & Mike, In a nutshell. I believe the answer is NO. We cannot achieve a state of sinlessness.. It says so in the bible. If we do not sin anymore is there any need of repentance? Has anyone here not commited a sin since they were born again? Go back 3 years, 3 months and think hard if you ever beeped out what you really thought of the person who cut you off on the road. I am a sinner and have Christ in my life and the sins that I use to commit (or commit to) I do not do anymore since we can do all things through Christ Jesus, but every now and then I find myself dealing with people or situations that I fall into sin i.e; A telemarketer called up asking if the man of the house was home and I said no.. The person you are speaking to is the house sitter.. I basically lied to her and actually felt bad for doing it, but I was not in the mood to deal with anyone, and I prayed and asked for forgiveness because I am weak. So in thinking that you cannot sin anymore period I think is impossible because I do not know of anyone who can make such a claim that is on this earth. If you do know someone then please let us all know. quote:
1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Anyways I do not now of any SDA that can make such a claim. I am one and will not lie when I say that I am a sinner, but saved by the grace of God and the blood of Jesus Christ the Son of God who is risen and is on the right hand side of the father.
God Bless,
Will
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31952
04/18/03 01:21 AM
04/18/03 01:21 AM
|
|
|
We read in the Sabbath School Lesson this week about forgiveness. But, we first must humble ourselves and repent.
You have asked for references from the bible...
Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
3528 nikao {nik-ah'-o}
from 3529; TDNT - 4:942,634; v
AV - overcome 24, conquer 2, prevail 1, get the victory 1; 28
1) to conquer 1a) to carry off the victory, come off victorious 1a1) of Christ, victorious over all His foes 1a2) of Christians, that hold fast their faith even unto death against the power of their foes, and temptations and persecutions 1a3) when one is arraigned or goes to law, to win the case, maintain one's cause
I will also offer a couple of quotes from the SOP.....
Maranatha, p. 224
"Everyone who through by faith in Christ obeys all of God's commandments, will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression."
The Paulson Collection of Ellen G. White Letters
-PG- 120
"To the forerunner of Christ was given the message, "Repent ye for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." The work of the herald of Christ was a continuous effort to destroy the popular delusion
concerning the coming Messiah, and to show that repentance and forsaking of sin are necessary preparations for the coming kingdom. This work constituted the preparation for the establishment of the true church."
Remember....."By Faith"....."I can do all things through Jesus Christ who Strengthens me"
If we can't over come, then Satan wins and we are saying Satan is stronger than our Saviour, and we know that is not true.
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31953
04/18/03 04:18 AM
04/18/03 04:18 AM
|
Most Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
|
|
During our walk with Christ He gives us the strength to overcome which is sanctification. It is a process that occurrs daily as the Holy Spirit convicts us of any wrong doings we may do to someone else either outwardly or in our thoughts which is why we should confess,repent, and ask for forgiveness. We know that our sins will be forgiven. I would like to know if anyone here can say that he or she has achieved a state of sinlessness? Isn't our perfection achieved and made complete when Christ comes? I would like some thoughts on this, and responses to anyone who has achieved a sinless state.
God Bless,
Will
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31954
04/18/03 04:28 AM
04/18/03 04:28 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Will, how do you reconcile 1 John 1:8-10 and 1 John 3:9? And another question - If God is incapable of empowering us to live without sinning, then what is He waiting for, why not eliminate sin and sinners and end the great controversy right now? or better yet, 6,000 years ago?
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31955
04/18/03 04:46 AM
04/18/03 04:46 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
1. Of the Spirit Jesus said, "He shall glorify Me." The Saviour came to glorify the Father by the demonstration of His love; so the Spirit was to glorify Christ by revealing His grace to the world. The very image of God is to be reproduced in humanity. The honor of God, the honor of Christ, is involved in the perfection of the character of His people. {DA 671.3}
2. Conflict and Courage, page 110, paragraph 4
God has made ample provision for His people; and if they rely upon His strength, they will never become the sport of circumstances. The strongest temptation cannot excuse sin. However great the pressure brought to bear upon the soul, transgression is our own act. It is not in the power of earth or hell to compel anyone to do evil. Satan attacks us at our weak points, but we need not be overcome. However severe or unexpected the as-sault, God has provided help for us, and in His strength we may conquer.
3. The Desire of Ages, page 311, paragraph 3
The tempter's agency is not to be accounted an excuse for one wrong act. Satan is jubilant when he hears the professed followers of Christ making excuses for their deformity of character. It is these excuses that lead to sin. There is no excuse for sinning. A holy temper, a Christlike life, is accessible to every repenting, believing child of God.
4. Reflecting Christ, page 291, paragraph 4
As the sacrifice in our behalf was complete, so our restoration from the defilement of sin is to be complete. There is no act of wickedness that the law will excuse; there is no unrighteousness that will escape its condemnation. The life of Christ was a perfect ful-fillment of every precept of the law. He said, "I have kept my Father's commandments" (John 15:10). His life is our standard of obedience and service.
5. The Signs of the Times, June 5, 1884, paragraph 12
There is no excuse for continuing in sin. No man is obliged to do evil, and be lost. Every one who perishes destroys his own soul. The provisions of grace are ample. Jesus is pleading in our behalf, and there is mercy for even the most guilty and sinful. Let us take hold of the strength of Jesus. He loves us with a love that is inexpressible; let us respond to that love.
6. The Watchman, February 4, 1908, paragraph 6
But by faith and prayer all may meet the requirements of the gospel. No man can be forced to transgress God's holy law. Temptation, however strong, is no excuse for sin; for divine grace is sufficient for us, and "the Lord's eyes are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers."
7. Manuscript Releases Volume Nine, page 233, paragraph 3
There is no excuse for man to remain in transgression and sin, because strength has been provided for him in Jesus, that he may overcome. The God of heaven Himself is working by His Spirit.
8. Manuscript Releases Volume Eighteen, page 144, paragraph 2
Let no one excuse his sin by saying, "It will not matter; it is only a little thing." That sin, small though it may seem to you, may cause the loss of a soul.
9. The Kress Collection, page 32, paragraph 1
The perfection of Christian character is attainable. As we approach the close of this earth's history, we will find that the whole world is becoming a lazar house of disease. The transgression of the law of God is bringing the sure result.
10. Sermons and Talks Volume Two, page 294, paragraph 3
Without perfection of character no one can enter the pearly gates of the city of God, for if, with all our imperfections, we were permitted to enter that city, there would soon be in heaven a second rebellion. We must first be tried and chosen, and found faithful and true. Upon the purification of our character rests our only hope of eternal life.
11. Sermons and Talks Volume One, page 247, paragraph 2
The law cannot save you, but it is the standard of character, and to represent the character of Jesus Christ you must live the law, for He lived the law in our world. Paul says, "I have taught them from house, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ." (See Acts 20:20,21.) This is the way. We behold Him for the perfection of His character and then we see the defects in our own character. Do you stand before God and say, "Cleanse us and change us"? You should flee to Jesus Christ and lay hold of the divine merits of the Son of God, and then you are washed from the defilements and stains of sin. There is not a stain in the character because God is enthroned in the heart and Christ does not war against Christ. Christ does not war against the Father. "I and the Father are one." He was in the express image of the Father's person, and we want to express the character of Jesus Christ.
12. The Signs of the Times, September 3, 1902, paragraph 1
The ethics inculcated by the Gospel acknowledge no standard but the perfection of God's mind, God's will. God requires from His creatures conformity to His will. Imperfection of character is sin, and sin is the transgression of the law. All righteous attributes of charac-ter dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole. Every one who receives Christ as his personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. This it the science of holiness.
13. Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, January 2, 1913, paragraph 8
The converting power of God must be upon our hearts. We must study the life of Christ, and imitate the divine Pattern. We must dwell upon the perfection of his character, and be changed into his image. No one will enter the kingdom of God unless his passions are subdued, unless his will is brought into captivity to the will of Christ.
14. Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, September 19, 1912, paragraph 8
None need fail of attaining, in his sphere, to perfection of Christian character. By the sacrifice of Christ, provision has been made for the believer to receive all things that pertain to life and godliness. God calls upon us to reach the standard of perfection, and places before us the example of Christ's character. In his humanity, perfected by a life of constant resistance of evil, the Saviour showed that through cooperation with divinity human beings may in this life attain to perfection of a character. This is God's assurance to us that we too may obtain complete victory.
15. Sons and Daughters of God, page 154, paragraph 3
Our work is to strive to attain in our sphere of action the perfection that Christ in His life on the earth attained in every phase of character.
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31956
04/18/03 06:38 AM
04/18/03 06:38 AM
|
Most Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
|
|
Hi Mike, I will explain as best I could 1 John 8-10 states it quite clearly that we are in need of Christ to cleanse us and fogive our sins. We cannot ever say that we are without sin since in doing so we deceive ourselves and make God out to be a liar. Throughout the bible God shows His love for us and He acknowledges our sins if we confess them and ask for repentance. 1 John 3:9 points to those who are Christians and do not habitually sin and such behavior is not in their character i.e; If you had a problem with theft, and accepted Christ and you confessed your sins and asked for forgiveness and repented of those sins you are forgiven of those sins, and throughout your walk with Christ He will give you the strength to overcome those temptations. It is not that we are perfect in the sense that we comprehend perfection. Gods work in us is perfect because He builds us up and this is an ongoing process until the day we die. These passages point to the fact that the love of God will enable us to not be habitual sinners, but if you go and lie to someone (as in my case) technically I am guilty of breaking all the commandments, so I need to ask for forgiveness and repent. The Lord is patient and long suffering, and if I mess up again and ask Him to forgive me He will.. He loves us! I am not perfect and do not claim to be. As time progresses you begin to basically hate the things you use to do, and actually begin to get a sense of your weaknesses and ask God to give you that strength, and He will strengthen you, but if you mess up then guess what...Get on your knees and ask for forgiveness. Claiming to be without sin means that you are as holy as God, and I think we are quite far from that because if that is the case then who here needs to be saved? I know I do. If God was incapable of even taking away our sins then what are we doing accepting Christ as our Lord and Savior? I am a witness to the power of Christ in my life as all of us are because God leads us to repentance, and gives us the opportunity to accept Christ and gives us a chance and knows our weak frame. quote:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Why doesnt God end the great contreversy right now.. Excellent question and I definitely can only think that the Word of God is fulfilled completely, so the Word of God needs to be preached to every nation,tribe and tongue, and there will be a series of events occurring prior to His coming. There are 2 situations running in parallel
1. The world is basically going downhill really fast.
2. The word of God is being preached around the world by either missionaries, shortwave radio, satellite, books, you name it Gods work is being completed.
quote:
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Now what happens if one who is sinless actually sins? That in itself is a paradox because if you are sinless then you are incapable of sinning, and in doing so you are claiming to be like God, and if you claim to be like God then I would suggest re-assessing the situation and ask The Lord for guidance because He loves us and does not want any one of us to be deceived or perish even though some will because they have not accepted Christ in their lives, and by loving God you will obey His law, but if you break 1 of the commandments then by the very definition and purpose of Christ coming to die for our sins and cleansing us we know we have an Advocate in heaven who intercedes on our behalf! ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif)
Wasn't the first lie that satan told Eve
quote:
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
This is the very same nature of claiming to live a life of sinlessness (without sin) No one can do that. Its in the bible its not my own opinion, and the bible interprets itself, and it clearly states that this state is not something we can do. We can go on and sin no more in the sense of not habitually commiting the same sin over and over and over and forgetting about it and live in sin, but through Christ He will help us overcome those sins, but we will not be sinless...That my friend will be achieved when we are with God at the second coming of Jesus Christ. I really like discussing these topics by the way because I find that I am learning things as well and we build eachother up:)
God Bless,
Will
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31957
04/18/03 02:13 PM
04/18/03 02:13 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Will, can you please comment on each of the SOP quotes I shared above. Do they agree with your premise that God cannot empower us to live without sinning?
Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, February 7, 1957, paragraph 18
Article Title: The Need of Self-Surrender
"If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: but if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword." These words are true. Exact obedience is required, and those who say that it is not possible to live a perfect life throw upon God the imputation of injustice and untruth.
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31958
04/18/03 08:31 PM
04/18/03 08:31 PM
|
Most Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
|
|
Mike, I think you have and are grossly misrepresenting my faith and making false claims that I think God cannot empower us to live without sinning which means that you are passing judgment on me, and falsely accused me of something that has not 1 shred of truth and if what you believe is true then why should I even bother or even attempt to witness to others about the plan of salvation which is what Christ told us to do Mark 16:15,and have accepted Christ as my Lord and Savior so I forgive you for falselyaccusing me of being faithless which is absolutely not true so if its not true guess what it is..a Lie..and isn't lying a sin?I have taken your comment personally as an attack on my person. Now with that said I will continue. As I have said before and is clearly written in the bible it is not something that happens overnight it is daily as we walk in His Spirit, and we need to surrender to Him completely. I agree with those things, so what happens when you get mad at someone or make false accusations against them?If you sin you can ask for forgiveness this is biblical, but this is not to say that you should continue sinning because the Holy Spirit will convict you of your sins, and you will come to repentance, and be sanctified daily as The Lord strengthens you. As for the SOP's you have posted I have not had the opportunity to read SOP's because I find myself studying the Word of God than reading SOP's, but I do pick up some literature that assists me on studyng the bible such as Steps to Christ, or Understanding the Trinity (not that we can completely). Anyways I will make a comment for each of your SOP's. quote:
#1 Yes I agree. Christ is our example and we are to have like minds like Him. He came to serve rather than be served, and be humble and meek with one another.
quote:
#2 I agree with as well.
1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].
quote:
#3 I agree with as well because we need to surrender completely to Christ, and he will work in us and build us up.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
quote:
#4 I agree with as well. None can escape the law, but we are not under the Law if we have not sinned, but when we do sin we are under the Law and the Holy Spirit points us to Chrst to come to repentance which is why we have been saved by grace, and not the Law!
quote:
#5 I agree as well. Christ leads us to not sin, and he gives us the strength to do so. An extremely good example of this is your false accusations against me in front of everyone who is reading this Mike. By the grace of God I have not made one railing accusation against you. That my friend is called Fruit of the Spirit, and when you exhibit the Fruit of the Spirit Christ is in you guiding you, so have I achieved a state of sinlessness...
quote:
#6 I agree as well. The Lord hears my prayers and His eye is over me, and He guides me as well.
quote:
#7 I agree as well. The Holy Spirit is working in each of us guiding us and giving us strength.
quote:
#8 I agree as well. We need to acknowledge our sins and ask for repentance. This is what this whole thread is regarding if we can achieve a state of sinlessness. The very SOP you quote in #8 is making reference to not acknowledging your sins even if its a little white lie is a sin. If it is !
Please refer to 1 John 1:8-10 for this.
quote:
#9 I agree. A persons Character is made perfect in Christ. It is the blood of Christ that makes our sins that were red as scarlet to be white as snow. This is biblical
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
quote:
#10
This should actually read "Without Christ we cannot enter into the prearly gates of heaven" Please use biblical sources when making claims upon which our salvation is based and on how we are to enter heaven..
quote:
#11
Shoudnt this read "The law cannot save you but only Chrst can save you. We behold Christ the Son of God for saving us and taking away the sins of the world" the SOP #10 that you have posted my friend is a clear cut case of legalism. A means of justification by following every letter of the law which was the opening of the sentence. Something the Pharisees were guilty of. Below I have provided verses that illustrate otherwise.
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
1Th 5:9-10
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
quote:
#11
Please refer to my statement in #10. Once again salvation comes by faith in Jesus Christ not anything else. We live through Christ. #11 also states that we must come to Jesus and be clansed of our sins.
Also just in case you plan on telling me "So do you think believe that once saved always saved." If that were the case then my character would have never changed at all, but it has this is called a testimony. A testimony to the power of Christ who saves us, loves us, and guides us by the Holy Spirit. I needed to tell you this incase you were thinking that once you have accepted Chrst that you can go on doing whatever. That is not the case at all because we love the Lord and He guides us in His paths of righteousness.
quote:
#12
I agree
Sin is transgression of the law, and the law that we refer to includes the 10 commandments. Thou shalt not covet etc etc, and we conform to Gods law because we love Him, and He guides us to this. The world has a sin problem and we overcome sin by Christ.
quote:
#13
I agree. Do you give everything to God? I do.. all my thoughts my heart,soul, actions, and words..
quote:
#14
I agree we are victorious through Christ!
quote:
#15 I agree, and this also clearly states that our work is to strive which means to struggle against opposition, to devote serious effort and time, and by definition looks to me as if it is an ongoing process. Look up the word for yourself
I really hope and pray that you appreciate the time and effort I took to answer each of your 15 SOP quotes. Now I have some questions to ask you which you so conveniently decided to be so elusive about.
#1. Have you sinned since you were born again?
#2. Being a pastor of a church are there any sinners in that church?
#3. Have you achieved a state of sinlessness?
In closing what does this mean to you:
quote:
Galatians 5:22-26
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
My edit of this post includes your last quote from the advent review just so you know that not one comment or implication passes by me with out notice.
quote:
Advent Review
We do need to surrender to Christ, and not doing so is being rebellious.
Now here is my response to you for using this quote to attempt to prove your point.
Now are you saying that I am rebellious? Are you once again falsely accusing me of not following Christ by using a comment from the advent review? Have I not just placed more than once the very truths and as given in the bible and also given my testimony by sharing some little pieces of issues I encountered and sinned and asked God for forgiveness in order to show you that I am a chrstian since you are telling me and everyone here that I am not. Because what you basically asked for in your request to answer each of the 15 SOP's that are quite lengthy and tedious to read which makes sense as to why I read the bible instead of basing my salvation and biblical interpretation on SOPS?! Is that I am not a chrstian and you were trying to prove to everyone that
quote:
"Here ladies and gentlement is someone who is not saved. Did you see by his own words denying the power of God".
So I have given and have also suffered by your gross misrepresentation of a chrstians character at maybe not my expense but yours. I my friend have seen enough things in my life and have witnessed the glory and salvation of Christ to the point that He is using me to witness to others. Whether it be at work, at home, on the streets, or in a forums such as this to a pastor and its readers, and it is a joy to have explained all this in detail to you, so perhaps you being a pastor of a church of whom much has been given can possibly get an understanding and perspective from how the bible that tells us we are in need of a savior! . Anyways Galatians 5:22-26, John 3:16 and all the other verses I posted for you above.
God BLess,
Will
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31959
04/19/03 02:33 AM
04/19/03 02:33 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Will, I have offended you. I am sorry. When Daryl asked, "In other words, can a born again Christian actually achieve sinlessness in this life?" You reponded with the following statement, "In a nutshell. I believe the answer is NO. We cannot achieve a state of sinlessness. It says so in the bible. If we do not sin anymore is there any need of repentance?"
Then later on you wrote, "This is the very same nature of claiming to live a life of sinlessness (without sin) No one can do that. Its in the bible its not my own opinion, and the bible interprets itself, and it clearly states that this state is not something we can do. We can go on and sin no more in the sense of not habitually commiting the same sin over and over and over and forgetting about it and live in sin, but through Christ He will help us overcome those sins, but we will not be sinless."
From these remarks I assumed you meant we cannot cease sinning in this lifetime. Now I realize you do believe God can completely deliver us from all sin, that He can truly set us free from all sin sometime during course of our lifetime. Amen! I did not mean to falsely accuse you. My mistake. Please forgive me.
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31960
04/19/03 02:40 AM
04/19/03 02:40 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Will wrote:
"I really hope and pray that you appreciate the time and effort I took to answer each of your 15 SOP quotes. Now I have some questions to ask you which you so conveniently decided to be so elusive about.
#1. Have you sinned since you were born again?
#2. Being a pastor of a church are there any sinners in that church?
#3. Have you achieved a state of sinlessness?
In closing what does this mean to you:
Galatians 5:22-26
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another."
The answer to questions 1, 2 and 3 is Yes. Would you like me to elaborate? Galatians 5:22-26 describes the life of a born again believer who is connected to Jesus, who is walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man. So long as they are connected to Jesus they do not and cannot commit a known sin.
Ellen White put it this way:
Those who believe on Christ and obey His commandments are not under bondage to God's law; for to those who believe and obey, His law is not a law of bondage, but of liberty. Everyone who believes on Christ, everyone who relies on the keeping power of a risen Saviour that has suffered the penalty pronounced upon the transgressor, everyone who resists temptation and in the midst of evil copies the pattern given in the Christ life, will through faith in the atoning sacrifice of Christ become a partaker of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. Everyone who by faith obeys God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. {HP 146.5}
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31961
04/19/03 02:47 AM
04/19/03 02:47 AM
|
Most Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
|
|
I already forgave you in my heart a while ago Mike, and even went to the length of praying and asking The Lord to forgive my own remarks if they seemed abit off color and that if I am in the wrong to please guide me and show me The Way, and we know the Way is Jesus Christ! . I do think that if someone does not cease from commiting the same sins over and over again then the truth is not in that person. There are many things that I need work on and there are many things that by the grace of God have been removed from me. I dont know of anyone who has achieved this state. The Lord loves us as we are and wants to be in our lives, so I think as we grow in Christ He will remove our issues and brake the chains in His way, some may be removed instantly others may be removed as a result of guilt that you experience when you sin which leads you to repentance and you will eventually stop doing it because you love The Lord, but if you sin in someay shape or form we know that we can come to God and ask for forgiveness and He will forgive us, and lead us and strengthen us to not do such things.Anyways Mike thanks for leading by example and God Bless and Happy Sabbath:) God Bless, Will
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31962
04/19/03 02:54 AM
04/19/03 02:54 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Will, did my last post slip in while you working on your last one?
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31963
04/19/03 03:25 AM
04/19/03 03:25 AM
|
Most Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
|
|
Hi Mike,
Well your last post most definitely slipped by because I did not see anything else after I had posted:)
There is no need to elaborate on questions #1 & #2, however I am baffled by how you are sinless #3. I think that if you answered yes to #2, then how can you say that a born again Christian can achieve a state of sinlessness if you commited a sin ever since being born again? and how do you know when you get to that state?
Are we talking about the sinlessness that we have in Christ Jesus or the sinlessness physically on our own as a result of lets say"Today I did not even think bad about anyone,didnt lie, didnt covet, didnt commit adultery (mentally and physically), did not disrepect my parents etc etc.."? I believe that we are blameless in Christ Jesus thats a fact if that was not the case then it would be salvation by works.
I would like to know more about this if you don't mind because. I think that the issue of being sinless in Christ vs not sinning are 2 different things. Constantly sinning is habitual and in someones character, and we are not perfect. There is not one night that I do not ask the Lord to forgive my sins because I may have sinned against someone unknowingly, or that I may have sinned by thinking someone was an idiot, or whatever the case may be, but I do not say that I am without sin. So if possible at least elaborate on #3. Also to get to the state that Adam was at that would mean that we would have to live in perfection? This would be before sin entered the world.. I am now confused by this. It seems to be a salvation by works because we live in a world of sin to get to the state Adam was in would mean that everything is perfect and this will not be done until Christ comes again. Until then we are going to be persecuted, lied to, slandered against, manipulated, but we need to stay on point even when these situations may cause you to think ill thoughts towards someone we need to come to Christ and ask for forgiveness and strength. If we are without sin in the sense of perfection is there a need for salvation? Please elaborate with scripture, as I find this teaching of achieving a state of sinlessness to be confusing.
God Bless,
Will
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31964
04/19/03 04:23 PM
04/19/03 04:23 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Will, to start off with let's consider Jesus. He was sinless and yet He possessed a 1) sinful nature and lived in a 2) sinful world, the same as you and me. Thus obviously these two things do not prevent us from being sinless.
But I believe you've hit the nail on the head when you mentioned sinful thoughts and feelings. But again let's consider Jesus. He was tempted in every way we are tempted. This includes being tempted by His sinful nature. As you know sinful nature generates and communicates tempting sinful thoughts and feelings which we must recognize and resist in the strength of Jesus.
1. The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. The love of God must reign supreme; Christ must occupy an undivided throne. Our bodies are to be regarded as His purchased possession. The members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness. {AH 127.2}
It is important that we claim the promises of God. "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Mat 5:48. We are born again morally perfect. "Ye are complete in him... perfect and complete in all the will of God." Col 2:10 and 4:12. "Having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." 2 Peter 1:4. We have "ceased from sin; that he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God." 2 Peter 4:1,2. "Henceforth we should not serve sin... Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." Romans 6:6,18.
When we walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man we do not and cannot commit a known sin. See Gal 5:16, Eph 4:21-24 and 1 John 3:9. However, that does not mean that our sinful nature stops bombarding our minds with sinful tempting thoughts and feelings. Not until Jesus rewards us with a new body and nature will we be free from harassing sinful temptations.
But we must not confuse these sinful tempting thoughts and feelings with our new man mind. We must not own them as if we are guilty of them. Like Jesus, who also suffered being tempted (Heb 2:18), we must recognize and resist these unholy thoughts and feelings as the voice of Satan - and not automatically assume we are guilty of them because we are conscious of them. All temptations begin as unholy thoughts and feelings. But if we trust Jesus to empower us to resist them unto the honor and glory of God our Father we are more than conquerors. Amen.
Does this make sense?
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31965
04/19/03 04:50 PM
04/19/03 04:50 PM
|
Most Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
|
|
Hi Mike, Your response clears up alot of things indeed, so by not giving in to temptation not by our own will but by subjecting our minds and hearts to Christ He will deliver us from actually physically carrying out and\or even dwelling on those sinful thoughts correct? A verse comes to mind as I read your last post which clears things up. quote:
1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].
So we are sinful in nature which is what 1 john 1:8 is referring to correct?
quote:
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
And it is now much more clearer that the thoughts that manifest itself all of a sudden that are not according to the will of God are not of good repute as mentioned in Phillipans 4:8 are contrary to Gods will and go against Him and are thus sinful, and this is when we need to ask Christ to wipe away those thoughts and surrender ourselves to His love correct?
quote:
Phi 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are] just, whatsoever things [are] pure, whatsoever things [are] lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be] any virtue, and if [there be] any praise, think on these things.
I think I know what you mean by sinlessness which would mean that a person is not commited and habitually carrying out those sinful,lustful, or worldly deeds, but by surendering to Christ the grace of God will carry us through by a way of escape from the situation correct, but if we do fall into sin due to our lack of faith which was a result of a weakness we can be assurred that we can come to Christ and confess our sins, and He will forgive us. Let me know if this sounds correct as I am trying to understand the magnitude of what is meant by sinlessness and its application by reading what God has to say about it in the bible.
God Bless,
Will
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31966
04/19/03 05:13 PM
04/19/03 05:13 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Will, it looks as though we are approaching unity of thought here. Amen! However, I am more inclined to take 1 John 1:8 and 10 to mean we have a history of sinning, rather than we have a sinful nature that craves sinning. And I wouldn't blame our frequent and unfortunate backsliding on our weaknesses because in Christ our weaknesses are made our strongest attributes. See 2 Cor 12:9 and Heb 11:34.
There are legitimate reasons why we slip so easily into sin, back into the mind of the old man, but these reasons do not count as excuses. See 1 Cor 10:13. We may be tired, sick, behind the power curve, had a bad day at work, etc - but although these things drain us of strength it does not rob Jesus of His ability to pull us off more than conquerors. Our ability to resist temptation does not depend upon our strengths or weaknesses - it relies totally upon being connected to Jesus.
Anytime and everytime we resist temptation it is because we were connected to Jesus. Thus there is only one reason why we fail and slide back into the mind of the old man and sin - it is because we took our eyes off Jesus, because we stopped abiding in His love and power. So long as we are connected to Jesus, in fellowship with Him, walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man we are morally perfect, sinless, cleansed from all sin, all unrighteousness - morally and legally.
1 John
1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Jesus didn't say - Become perfect or become sinless. He simply said - Be perfect, be sinless. We do not become perfect after we're born again, rather we are born again perfect. The growth we enjoy in Christ involves maturing in the fruits of the Spirit. Thank you Jesus!
And just because Jesus sets us free from a life of sinning it does not mean that repentance and salvation are no longer needful. Repentance includes the power to live without sin. It's not just for forgiveness. And salvation includes freedom from sins past, present and future. But we cannot sin in the mind of the new man. See 1 John 3:9. We must resurrect, as it were, the mind of the old man in order to commit a known sin.
Are we still in agreement?
[ April 19, 2003, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31967
04/19/03 10:06 PM
04/19/03 10:06 PM
|
|
|
I see in the above postings what appears to be a misunderstanding of the definition of "sin."
Sin seems to come in at least four catagories:
* 1. Rebellion (I John 3:4)
* 2. Doing things that are wrong or evil (perhaps unwittingly) (I John 2:1)
* 3. Mistakes or doing things incorrectly (I John 5:16,17)
* 4. Living in a sinful environment (Rom 3:23).
Consider these one at a time. Only one verse in scripture defines "sin:" I John 3:4. It is unfortunate that the translators of the KJV Bible chose the phrase "transgression of the law" in this verse instead of the correct noun "lawlessness." Lawlessness is an attitude like rebellion or defiance. Transgression is an action. In this verse, John is stating that sin is the attitude, not the action. It is what Jesus was trying to say when He differentiated between hatred and murder. Hatred is the sin; murder is the results of sin, not the sin itself (Matt 5:21-30).
It becomes obvious from this that if I quit my rebellion, that is, if I am converted, or switch my allegiance to God's team, I am no longer sinning. And if I never chose to rebel against God, I can live my entire life without sinning.
It also follows that if I place myself on God's team, I am saved. I have eternal life. I do not come into judgment (John 3:18, 5:24, Acts 16:31, Rom 8:1). From this I conclude that salvation is concerned with sin only in the sense of catagory 1, not with any other catagory.
However, the word "sin" is also used in scripture to denote evil activities (catagory 2, above). Obviously I can only do something deliberately evil if I rebel. Then I have sinned in both senses (catagory 1 and 2). I can also do something which inadvertantly hurts someone. That also falls into catagory 2 but does not fall into catagory 1.
It is interesting to note that God is willing to forgive and cleanse us from sins in both of these catagories (I John 1:9).
It is my personal belief that what some call sin that falls in catagory 3 are not sins at all. Yes, we all make mistakes but we would be hard pressed to declare that it is a sin to hit your finger with the hammer when you are trying to pound a nail. It would also be foolish to declare that it's a sin for a child to fall down when she is learning to walk.
But God fits into this catagory also. Through the Holy Spirit, God teaches us how to do everything correctly (John 16:13). This, by the way, is where the law comes in. It is our beginners guide to how things are supposed to work in the heavenly lifesytle.
It is also my personal belief that texts which state that all have sinned, etc., refer to the environment in which we find ourselves. It seems obvious to me that that my little five month old grandchild has never sinned in any of the first three catagories. She gets colds and sore throats, not because of anything she has done, but because of the environment in which she lives. So with us. Many bad things happen to us, not because of anything we have done, but because we live in a sin filled world.
If Biblical references to sin are considered in the light of these (and perhaps other) catagories, I believe there would be much less confusion in interpretation
Bob Lee
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31968
04/19/03 11:32 PM
04/19/03 11:32 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Bob Lee, thank you for sharing those insights. I like the way you differentiate between intentional and unintentional sins. Do you believe we are born again free from both categories? That is, is it possbile to live without committing either type of sin in this lifetime? What does the Bible mean by "all sin" and "all unrighteousness" quoted above?
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31969
04/20/03 12:30 AM
04/20/03 12:30 AM
|
Most Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
|
|
Hi, Well it appears that things are becoming more clear and after reading the verses, and studying the points listed. We are clothed in the righteousness of Christ,and I firmly believe that he instructs us of our ways and will let us know that "You really should not have done that" or whatever the case may be, and you will feel your very spirit pressed and feel the conviction of the Holy Spirit to confess and repent of your sin or sins. By doing this Christ will remove it, but by continually sinning, andignoring the Holy Spirit as He guides us into all truth that is where you are in constant sin and rebelling against God. I will use myself as an example: I use to do things that were bad, and after I gave my life to the Lord and was baptized I fell flat on my face, but Proverbs 24:16 tells us quote:
Pro 24:16 For a just [man] falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.
It is the very power of God who lifts you up!
So by the grace of God He handed me the victory over my sins which I do not commit anymore, but I still find myself once in a while in a position where I do not get on my knees and pray for strength or call upon the Lord to deliver me from thinking such and such or help me with whatever and I end up sinning, but the past sins are no more. I think thats a big difference, now if I was still commiting the same sins and really didnt care then I think that in itself is a whole different story, but we have a hope and an Advocate who will forgive us of such sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. This is a lifelong work as has been stated above, and that my friends is the perseverance and the faith that will be rewarded when Christ comes. On the day of judgment it will be Christ who will be our Judge and defense, and if we have accepted Him and follow His ways we are on the right track. I think that the points brought up in this thread are very valid and are very good points. It is something to strive for in Christ Jesus as He leads us and forgives us of our sins.
quote:
Psa 103:14 For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we [are] dust.
I am in agreement with what you have said Mike,and also with what you have posted Boblee and I can see that we are all prone to messing up, but if something happens it is no excuse, but we know He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins.
God Bless,
Will
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31970
04/20/03 04:51 AM
04/20/03 04:51 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Will, amen! I'm glad we're beginning to see things in a similar light. It is the truth that sets us free, especially the truth about rebirth and perfection. That's why it's so important that we understand it correctly. We cannot achieve what we cannot believe.
Just to take this study a little further would you mind addressing the following questions:
1. Is it possible to go and sin no more?
2. Is there any excuse for not going and sinning no more?
3. When is it possible to go and sin no more?
4. When is 1 John 3:9 a reality?
5. Is sinning inevitable?
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31971
04/20/03 09:57 AM
04/20/03 09:57 AM
|
Most Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
|
|
Hi Mike, I will answer the below point by point. #1. Yes it is possible to go and not be commited to your sins though Christ Jesus who gives us the strength to overcome. #2. Yes there is an excuse. We have a sinful nature, which is why we are saved by the blood of Christ. #3 It is possible to go and not be commited to your past sins after you repent,confess, and ask for forgiveness. It is the work of the indwelling Holy Spirit that guides us into truth, and by the power of the blood of Christ He strengthens us. #4 1John 3:9 becomes a realiy after a sinner has confessed his sins, and has accepted Christ as there Lord and Savior. #5 Sinning in the sense that if it happens it happens then yes it is inevitable. No on can say that I will not sin for the rest of my life. By accepting Christ as our Lord and Savior we have confessed, and repented and asked for forgiveness of our sins, and Christ died for all of our sins not just sins in the past, or just a praticular sin only but sins in the future as well. quote:
Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins
quote:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Christ died for us while we were yet sinners, so by accepting Christ as our Lord and Savior we are justified and redeemed by His blood. This means that through our imperfection it is the will of God that He build us up. This is the sanctification process. We have already been justified by faith, and during His work in us we are being sanctified, and when we are with Him in heaven we will be glorified.
If a person has accepted Christ and still remains in his sins then he needs to pray a little harder and ask that God give him the strength to make some changes, and God will do that. If I were to say that I am living a life of sinlessness and have not sinned then I would be lying, but I repent and ask for forgiveness and do not do them again, but if I do guess what.. They are forgiven. The walk I have with Christ is one of faith and spiritual growth and He is building me up and building up my character as He is building us all up and guiding us. He has already saved us and we do not turn away and return to our older selves out of complacency in our salvation. That is why when you accept Christ you are a new person. Your old self has died, and is no more, and Christ has forgiven you of your sins,and we are still in need of a Savior after our conversion because we are sinners.
God Bless,
Will
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31972
04/21/03 03:41 AM
04/21/03 03:41 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Will, thank you for answering those questions. But now I am not so sure we're saying the same thing. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Conversion is a process and a product. During the process the Holy Spirit influences us to acknowledge our moral defective traits of character and surrender our heart and mind to Jesus.
Once we completely confess our sinfulness, once we completely surrender ourselves to Jesus, we experience the miracle of rebirth, the product of conversion. God immediately implants within us the sinless seed or mind of the new man. Our old man mind (sinful character) is dead and buried. We retain our sinful nature until Jesus returns and rewards us with a sinless nature and body.
We are born again morally perfect, morally sinless. We begin at rebirth where Jesus began at birth. We are born again totally justified and totally sanctified. The growth we experience while walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man involves growing in spiritual knowledge and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit. It does not involve discovering and overcoming new and unknown moral imperfections or defective traits of character.
Sanctification is the work of a lifetime. It involves growing in spiritual knowledge and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit. It does not involve sinning and repenting, nor does it involve discovering and overcoming new and unknown moral imperfections or defective traits of character.
Justification accommodates sinning and repenting after we are born again. We must be born again and morally perfect before Jesus can pardon our past sins and cover our sins of ignorance with His blood and righteousness. Moral defects of character do not constitute sins of ignorance. Jesus cannot justify known or unknown moral imperfections.
If we commit a known sin after we are born again we are unjustified and unsaved until the second we accept the gift of repentance which empowers us to confess and forsake our sin. It also gives God the legal right to pardon us and to restore the relationship our sin severed, to restore us to the mind of the new man.
It is impossible to commit a known sin while walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man. We must resurrect, as it were, the mind of the old man in order to commit a known sin. We are unsaved during the time we are walking in the mind of the old man. God will not allow us to die in such an unsaved state. He will grant us time and opportunity to repent. If we refuse to repent during this time we are lost.
Will, is this how you see it?
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31973
04/20/03 04:47 PM
04/20/03 04:47 PM
|
|
|
This use to be my biggest question. But it is a blessing to now know the answer. Isa 64:6 "But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." We are born into sin. We are naturally sinful. We need what is good. That good is Christ's blood atoning for our sins. We need to Die Daily the sinful self in order to be born again. quote:
Why is it so hard to lead a self-denying, humble life? Because professed Christians are not dead to the world. It is easy living after we are dead. Spiritual Gifts. Volume 4B , 17:02
Rom 6:4 "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." But we have to be willing to die our old nature to obtain the new one from Christ. Act 3:19 "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;"
Mat 16:19 "And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Here is the key: We have to use the Education and the power of true Righteousness in order to be perfect. If we are not educated in truth we will lack and will not know what is good. But we need to convert and be willing. Heb 10:26 "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"
Christ says Mat 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."
Christ leads us into perfection. When we are His: we learn to hate sin. Remember any sin is a separation from God, let us never separate ourselves from God because the warning is there:Rev 21:27 "And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life."
Conclusion: We have to acheive perfection, not by our standards nor our strength but by His . This comes from a daily death of the sinful self and the re-birth in Christ. Study, study, pray, pray and pray more, sing praises and psalms till you have left temptation ...do what is holy to be holy and let us enter into His rest so that we might be able to receive the latter rain which is promised.
with love,
Cheri
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31974
04/20/03 07:21 PM
04/20/03 07:21 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Cheri, welcome and thank you for sharing those awesome insights. God is good! So, you're from Pahrump. My father-in-law used to pastor the SDA church in Pahrump. John Holstein. Actually he's been my ex for several years now.
I'm so happy you've found the truth and that it has set you free. There's nothing like walking with Jesus, eh! Without Him we are nothing and most miserable. I love Him with all my heart, thanx to the indwelling Holy Spirit. Ain't it great!
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31975
04/20/03 07:56 PM
04/20/03 07:56 PM
|
Most Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
|
|
Ok I think progress is being made here. While we walk in the Spirit God guides us. quote:
If we commit a known sin after we are born again we are unjustified and unsaved until the second we accept the gift of repentance which empowers us to confess and forsake our sin. It also gives God the legal right to pardon us and to restore the relationship our sin severed, to restore us to the mind of the new man.
quote:
Exactly!
It is impossible to commit a known sin while walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man. We must resurrect, as it were, the mind of the old man in order to commit a known sin. We are unsaved during the time we are walking in the mind of the old man. God will not allow us to die in such an unsaved state. He will grant us time and opportunity to repent. If we refuse to repent during this time we are lost.
quote:
Yes.. The whole idea comes to fruition when you confess your sins, repent of your sins, and ask for forgiveness.
I hope that this clears up some things.
God Bless,
Will
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31976
04/20/03 11:30 PM
04/20/03 11:30 PM
|
|
|
Unless we die immediately after Baptisim we will sin again, be it in thought or deed. That is why it is so important to talk to God and Jesus regularly and ask for forgiveness.
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31977
04/21/03 01:04 AM
04/21/03 01:04 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Will, I guess we are in agreement. Right on. Thank you Jesus!
Luckymoose, welcome. Do you think it would be better if we stick with the way the Bible puts it? The operative word is IF we sin - not when. What do you think?
1. We shall often have to bow down and weep at the feet of Jesus because of our shortcomings and mistakes, but we are not to be discouraged. Even if we are overcome by the enemy, we are not cast off, not forsaken and rejected of God. No; Christ is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Said the beloved John, "These things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." 1 John 2:1. And do not forget the words of Christ, "The Father Himself loveth you." John 16:27. He desires to restore you to Himself, to see His own purity and holiness reflected in you. And if you will but yield yourself to Him, He that hath begun a good work in you will carry it forward to the day of Jesus Christ. Pray more fervently; believe more fully. As we come to distrust our own power, let us trust the power of our Redeemer, and we shall praise Him who is the health of our countenance. {SC 64.1}
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31978
04/21/03 01:11 AM
04/21/03 01:11 AM
|
Most Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
|
|
You are correct LuckyMoose. It is a daily walk with Christ and we will be blameless on the day of judgment through Christ. It is the guiding of the Holy Spirit that leads us into all truths to the glory of God. If you say that you are without sin then the bible clearly tells you that is not the case. The bible does not contradict itself. Remember Peter.. Didnt he deny Christ 3X's, and in public even! Is his soul lost? and mind you this is after the fact that He witnessed all the miracles Christ did, and even walked on the water because his faith was so strong in Christ, but he repented from his sins. quote:
1 John 1:7-10
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
This does not by any means however give the right for someone to continue to openly sin against God.That is not what I am saying or even have implied at all. I think the verses above and other verses that have been posted by myself and others will give guidance on this issue, and understand that God loves us and He will forgive us and understands our frame. Any comments or insights are greatly appreciated.
God Bless,
Will
[ April 21, 2003, 03:04 AM: Message edited by: Will ]
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31979
04/21/03 06:03 AM
04/21/03 06:03 AM
|
Most Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
|
|
We are in agreement Mike I believe that The Lord wants all of us on the same page, and it is a joy to know that The Lord works on all of us thousands of miles apart via a forum As for your last post it was on target and very true. Definitely the operative word is if we sin. I dont plan on sinning tomorrow or 4 years from now, but if I do or anyone of us do then the verses mentioned are definitely reconciled,and this is another powerful testimony to the inerrancy of the Word of God. quote:
1Co 14:33 For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
Also Mike you used a quote from a book named SC. What does SC stand for?
God Bless,
Will
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31980
04/21/03 12:58 PM
04/21/03 12:58 PM
|
|
|
SC means Steps To Christ.That is where I located the quote.
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31981
04/22/03 03:35 AM
04/22/03 03:35 AM
|
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Daryl Fawcett:
Can we actually go and sin no more?
In other words, can we actually achieve sinlessness in this life?
Can we find our answer in the Bible on such an important question?
The problem with your question is the unjustified conclusion on which it is based. There is no evidence that when Jesus told the woman "God and sin no more," that what He meant to say was "God and become sinless." However, millions of sermons and bible studies have been made on the basis of this false assumption, with the attendant misdirection in theology.
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31982
04/22/03 04:35 AM
04/22/03 04:35 AM
|
|
|
To Mike Lowe,
You asked, "Do you believe we are born again free from both categories?"
I believe, perhaps, you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I believe the sins we "commit," whether intentional or unintentional, are irrevalent to the overall picture. That which determines our final destiny is not what we do, but which side we choose to be on, Christ's or Satan's. Consider the situation of an adopted child. Once the child is adopted, his/her actions (good or bad) have no effect on the child's membership in the family. Similarly, a spouse's actions have no effect on the fact of the marriage. Of course, actions can lead a family to throw a child out or a person to divorce a spouse but that's a separate procedure independent of any action. And it is fascinating to note that in God's dealings with us, He will not instigate a divorce-like procedure (Rom 8:35-39). So a few "wild oats," "testing the limits," or defiance (see Psalm 106:23) will not keep us out of heaven. Only open rebellion, or as I John 3:4 says, lawlessness, will keep us from heaven. In other words, God won't force us in if we don't want to go (though Luke 14:13 seems to question even that concept).
Bob Lee
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31983
04/22/03 02:53 PM
04/22/03 02:53 PM
|
|
|
Darius,
Then what do you say that Christ meant when He told the woman to go and sin no more?
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31984
04/23/03 03:39 AM
04/23/03 03:39 AM
|
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Daryl Fawcett:
Darius,
Then what do you say that Christ meant when He told the woman to go and sin no more?
Viewed in the context of the good news Jesus came to proclaim instead of imposing rules on His lost creation, it becomes clear to me that this was a statement of blessing rather than the imposition of a rule. There was no need for the rule because the deliverance was in response to her desire to follow Him all the way. She already had the desire to live as she should.
Darius
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31985
04/22/03 06:28 PM
04/22/03 06:28 PM
|
|
|
Darius, I don't see it that way. If I had been the woman caught in the very act of adultery, had been thrown before Christ by my accusers, had heard Christ say, "Neither do I condemn thee, go and sin no more," I think I would understand that Christ didn't want me to sin any more. Here is another Bible reference on this question: quote:
John 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
Here is Christ seeking out a person and then telling that person to sin no more. Remember that this person didn't previously even know who had healed him.
quote:
John 5:15 The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.
What then did Christ mean by sin no more in this text?
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31986
04/22/03 08:30 PM
04/22/03 08:30 PM
|
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Daryl Fawcett:
John 5:14[/b] Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
Here is Christ seeking out a person and then telling that person to sin no more. Remember that this person didn't previously even know who had healed him.
[/QUOTE]
Certainly you do not believe Jesus is advocating retributive justice which the text appears to imply. The purpose of the statement is to assure the individuals and all of us that we are no longer slaves to sin. The devil would want us to believe that we have no choice but to sin because we are evil by nature; Jesus assures us that this is not the case.
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31987
04/22/03 09:57 PM
04/22/03 09:57 PM
|
|
|
If i happened across Mike Lowe's wife or kid, I wonder if they would say Mike never did anything wrong last month. ![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif)
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31988
04/22/03 10:10 PM
04/22/03 10:10 PM
|
|
|
I do believe that one can achieve a state of sinlessness...when you are too old to go places, do things, and be interested in sex. ![[Heart]](graemlins/heart.gif)
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31989
04/22/03 11:24 PM
04/22/03 11:24 PM
|
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Restin:
I do believe that one can achieve a state of sinlessness...when you are too old to go places, do things, and be interested in sex.
And unable to think.
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31990
04/22/03 11:56 PM
04/22/03 11:56 PM
|
|
|
I like to let the Bible speak to me rather than me speak to the Bible.
When Jesus says to go and sin no more irrespective of to whom He is saying it to, I would expect He means just that. His biddings are also His enablings.
We need to be careful that we are not putting words into the Bible's or our Lord's mouth.
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31991
04/23/03 12:03 AM
04/23/03 12:03 AM
|
|
|
Can We Walk With God? What are the first things necessary in our life if we would be able to walk with God as Enoch did? (Mat 5:6) Blessed [are] they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. (Hos 10:12) Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for [it is] time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you. Is this walk possible? quote:
"It is only as we behold Jesus that we desire to become like Him. It is only as we view His righteousness that we hunger and thirst to posess it. It is only as we ask in earnest prayer, in humility and simplicity, as the little child asks an earthly parent for some good thing, that God will grant unto us our heart's desire."-The Signs of the Times, December 25, 1893.
"We are to live by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God; in this way we are to become partakers of the divine nature. Those who are doers of the word of God will be one with Christ, and will walk with God as Enoch walked with Him of old." -The Medical Missionary, August, 1, 1892.
What is God's grace?
(2Co 12:9) And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. (Eph 3:7) Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
quote:
"Christ loved the hopeless sinner, and came to our world to bridge the gulf, and unite divine power to human weakness, that in His strength and grace man might wrestle for himself against Satan's temptations, overcome for himself, and stand in his God-given manhood, a victor over perverted appetite and degrading passions."-Christian Temperance and Bible Hygiene, p. 146.
"It is Christ's desire that His children shall reach this place. He longs to reveal thru them the treasure of His grace. He says to them, 'Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect'(Matthew 5:48). And He says this because He knows that it is possible for them to reach perfection. The life that He lived in this world, they can live. He met the foe single-handed, as they must meet him. He asked for and received power to enable Him to overcome in conflict. And those who walk in God's way have the same power."-The Signs of the Times, August 12, 1908.
"God's grace will be dispensed to His servants to meet the emergency. 'It shall be given you,' says Jesus, 'in that same hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.' As the Spirit of God illuminates the minds of His servants, the truth will be presented in its divine power and preciousness. Those who reject the truth will stand to accuse and oppress the disciples. But under loss and suffering, even unto death, the Lord's children are to reveal the meekness of their divine Example. Thus will be seen the contrast between Satan's agents and the represenatives of Christ. The Saviour will be lifted up before the rulers and the people."-The Desire of Ages, p. 354.
God is full of grace and mercy, praise the Lord for something that we never deserved.
with love
Cheri
taken from SBL, Senior Divison "Enoch's Walk With God", April-June2003/SDARM SBL's
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31992
04/23/03 01:26 AM
04/23/03 01:26 AM
|
|
|
It is so irrelevant to say who sins and who does not sin, when...that is not the issue at all. The issue is...what is the condition for eternal life "victory over sin and "go and sin No More."
We are not judges nor are we God that knows the heart, we are only mankind on our journey to the kingdom. Total Submission to our Saviour, puts us in a saving condition on this journey and Jesus finishes what he starts in us, and if we don't turn away from Him, by faith, He enables us to do His bidding. "Go And sin no more."
If this is not true, Satan will win the "Great Controversy."
Jesus shed His blood, that we may be Justified and gave us the example of a perfect life, by total dependence/submission on/to His Father. Also we may partake of His divine nature and He will live His life in us, which is Sanctification. Fitness for heaven.
Rom 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Phi 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Genuine SORROW for sin is results in the forsaking of sin......
Sketches from the Life of Paul----PG- 177....
"Now I rejoice, not that ye were
made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance;
for ye were made sorry after a godly manner,
that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of." That repentance which is produced by the influence of divine grace upon the heart, will lead to the confession and forsaking of sin. .......
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31993
04/23/03 04:56 PM
04/23/03 04:56 PM
|
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Daryl Fawcett:
I like to let the Bible speak to me rather than me speak to the Bible.
When Jesus says to go and sin no more irrespective of to whom He is saying it to, I would expect He means just that. His biddings are also His enablings.
We need to be careful that we are not putting words into the Bible's or our Lord's mouth.
The Bible is a record of ancient human interaction with God. It is more important that we listen to what God says to us without insisting that everything in the Bible is what God says to us, or that all that God says to us is in the Bible. I understand the tendency to believe that Jesus was setting down universal requirements everytime He spoke or acted but even those who believe that don't live accordingly. I have not found one Christian who claims that broiled fish is a required part of the Christian diet, and we know that Jesus ate broiled fish. Jesus does not accept us because we are able to live sinlessly; He died for us because He always claimed us as His own.
Why we would ask whether God wants us to live sinlessly rather that whether God wants us to rely on Him is an interesting situation.
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31994
04/23/03 05:06 PM
04/23/03 05:06 PM
|
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Cheri Fritz:
We are born into sin. We are naturally sinful. We need what is good. That good is Christ's blood atoning for our sins.
That's what the devil wants us to believe, but it is not true. Where you are born does not define me. Jesus was born in a manger but that did not make him a farm animal.
When God created us He said we were good. That was our nature. We are naturally good. It borders on blasphemy to suggest that God was such a lousy creator that one of His created beings could change the nature of His creation. We were born slaves to sin but that did not deprive us of our heavenly citizenship. It is unfortunate that we have forgotten who we truy are. Jesus came to rescue us because we are His. If we were not His He would have had to conquer us.
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31995
04/23/03 05:44 PM
04/23/03 05:44 PM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2014
Most Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 2,019
Northern CA
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Darius:
quote:
Originally posted by Restin:
I do believe that one can achieve a state of sinlessness...when you are too old to go places, do things, and be interested in sex.
And unable to think.
Praise God that we have the Word of God and the Spirit of Prophecy to guide us instead of humans!
Psalms 139:23-24
Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.
1 Chronicles 28:9
And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
Proverbs 12:5
The thoughts of the righteous are right: but the counsels of the wicked are deceit.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart
Those are just a few of the scriptures that shows us that we must have our thoughts under control of the Holy Spirit, and yes this does include men...Jesus had his thoughts under control of the Holy Spirit and this means the men today can do this too...and of course women can too.
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31996
04/23/03 06:30 PM
04/23/03 06:30 PM
|
|
|
Greetings Darius, In Eden our parents (Adam and Eve) were created perfect. They bore the clothes of light. And they could approach the Lord God Almighty, and in them there was no sin found because they did not know sin. Gen 1:27 "So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. " We were created in the image of God. What clothing does God wear? quote:
"Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who coverest [thyself] with light as [with] a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:" Psalms 104:1,2
(1) Clothed with Honor
(2) Majesty
(3) Light
(a) This was the clothing of Adam and Eve in the beginning
(b) It is a very worldly-minded picture of Adam and Eve naked in the garden of Eden
quote:
(Gen 3:7) And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they [were] naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
(1) This was a different type of nakedness than in: " Gen 2:25 "And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed."
quote:
"God instructed our first parents in regard to the tree of knowledge, and they were fully informed relative to the fall of Satan, and the danger of listening to his suggestions. He did not deprive them of the power of eating the forbidden fruit. He left them as free moral agents to believe his word, obey his commandments and live, or believe the tempter, disobey and perish. They both ate, and the great wisdom they obtained was the knowledge of sin, and a sense of guilt. The covering of light about them soon disappeared, and under a sense of guilt, and loss of their divine covering, a shivering seized them, and they tried to cover their exposed forms. The Lord would not have them investigate the fruit of the tree of knowledge, for then they would be exposed to Satan masked. He knew that they would be perfectly safe if they touched not the fruit." Vol. 1, Spirit of Prophecy, p.40:2.
What did they do as soon as they lost that covering?Gen 3:7 "And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they [were] naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons."
Why did they make a garment of fig leaves? Because God would be in their presence.
Adam and Eve are lacking the good image of God and they knew it.
What is our present day condition?
quote:
Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
How are we going to be worthy if we have no righteousness? Joh 3:3 "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
"1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." We NEED to be born again in Christ Jesus!
"Mat 5:6 Blessed [are] they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled."
* NOTE: What is good? In Genesis chapter one we read about the creation story and what God made was good. Good is perfection and good is without fault nor sin.
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31997
04/23/03 07:10 PM
04/23/03 07:10 PM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2014
Most Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 2,019
Northern CA
|
|
quote:
Harnessing the Mind.--All are free moral agents, and as such they must bring their thoughts to run in the right channel. Here is a wide field in which the mind can safely range. If Satan seeks to divert the mind to low and sensual things, bring it back again and place it on eternal things; and when the Lord sees the determined effort made to retain only pure thoughts, He will attract the mind, like the magnet, purify the thoughts, and enable them to cleanse themselves from every secret sin. "Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ" (2 Corinthians 10:5). {2MCP 595.2}
I praise God for the Spirit of Prophecy and the message above. I use to have a very bad time with my thoughts, etc. Then one day the I read the quote above and put it into practice. It did not happen all at once but everytime my mind wandered to things not pure and holy I would sing a pray, sing, etc. Then one day I noticed that my thoughts were more and more where they should be. Amen
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31998
04/25/03 04:19 AM
04/25/03 04:19 AM
|
|
|
Permit me to return to the question "Why did Jesus say 'Go and sin no more'?"
I would suggest there is more than one type of sin. By saying "sin no more" to the woman, Jesus was obviously referring to the type of sin which is an action--something we do as opposed to what we are. Salvation comes to us in three phases:
Salvation from the penalty of sin,
Salvation from the power of sin,
Salvation from the presence of sin.
These are usually labeled Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification. Basically when we accept Jesus as Saviour, we are justified. That is we join God's team, our sins are all forgiven, God accepts us as His child, and we are saved. But generally speaking, we know little or nothing about the lifestyle of heaven. We enter a learning phase which we label sanctification--that lifetime experience Mrs. White speaks about in which we learn to live correctly. In this phase, just like a new-born child we make mistakes, we do things wrong, we test the limits, etc. These are our actions. How much of this do we label sin? If we misunderstand an instruction or do something the wrong way, does that make us a sinner? It is my opinion that these are not sins at all. The only action which can legitimately be labeled sin are those actions which bring harm to ourselves, our neighbor, or to our God and His cause. Ignoring those evil actions which are done knowingly and deliberately (they revert us back to "lawlessness"), most harmful actions are done ignorantly. It is these God is trying to inform us about and teach us to avoid. It was in this vein I believe Jesus was telling the woman to avoid the trouble she had gotten into. I believe He is telling us the same thing: "This is what is hurting you, quit doing it, or this is what is hurting your neighbor or Me, quit doing it!" The Bible seems to indicate the woman was already one of Jesus diciples, she just got caught in or more likely tricked into a bad situation.
This type of sin (action) is in a different catagory from attitude type of sin in I John 3:6 ("No one who lives in Him keeps on sinning") or verse 9 ("No one who is born of God will continue to sin") (see v 4).
Bob Lee
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#31999
04/26/03 02:43 PM
04/26/03 02:43 PM
|
Full Member
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 148
Naches, WA
|
|
Here's a few things to keep in mind on this topic: quote:
"For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body." James 3:2 nkjv.
"Let us remember that we are struggling and falling, failing in speech and action to represent Christ, falling and rising again, despairing and hoping. Let us beware of dealing unkindly with those who, like ourselves, are subjects of temptation and who, like ourselves also, are the objects of Christ's unfailing love." 9T 222.
"We shall often have to bow down and weep at the feet of Jesus because of our shortcomings and mistakes, but we are not to be discouraged. Even if we are overcome by the enemy, we are not cast off, not forsaken and rejected of God. No; Christ is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Said the beloved John, "These things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." 1 John 2:1. And do not forget the words of Christ, "The Father Himself loveth you." John 16:27. He desires to restore you to Himself, to see His own purity and holiness reflected in you. And if you will but yield yourself to Him, He that hath begun a good work in you will carry it forward to the day of Jesus Christ." SC 64.
"The closer you come to Jesus, the more faulty you will appear in your own eyes; for your vision will be clearer, and your imperfections will be seen in broad and distinct contrast to His perfect nature." SC 64.
"Man has fallen; and it will be the work of a lifetime, be it longer or shorter, to recover from that fall, and regain, through Christ, the image of the divine, which he lost by sin and continued transgression." 2T 448,
"The characters formed in this life will determine the future destiny. When Christ shall come, He will not change the character of any individual. Precious, probationary time is given to be improved in washing our robes of character and making them white in the blood of the Lamb. To remove the stains of sin requires the work of a lifetime. Every day renewed efforts in restraining and denying self are needed. Every day there are new battles to fight and victories to be gained. Every day the soul should be called out in earnest pleading with God for the mighty victories of the cross." 4T 429.
"At every stage of development our life may be perfect; yet if God's purpose for us is fulfilled, there will be continual advancement. Sanctification is the work of a lifetime." COL 65.
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#32000
04/26/03 09:19 PM
04/26/03 09:19 PM
|
|
|
![[Thank You]](graemlins/thanks.gif) Welcome, Stan, to Maritime SDA OnLine! I am happy to see that you accepted my personal invitation to join us here. Thank you also for those quotes. In light of this topic what do those quotes mean? Are they saying that we can actually reach the point of sinning no more? If so, when?
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#32001
04/26/03 11:35 PM
04/26/03 11:35 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2020
4500+ Member
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
|
|
Yes Welcome Stan, and thank you for those quotes. My son, 13 is having trouble accepting the idea of perfection. With those quotes in mind that you posted above, all I could tell him is that God promises to change us to be like Him, but those who are the furthest along that road of sanctification are the last to say "I am perfect". Fortunately, my father-in-law is one of those who is far along, and I said to my son, it's a mystery of how God does it, and even the smartest pastor's have trouble explaining it, but in addition to the Bible's promises that sin will not have dominion over us, we have the lives of people like your grandfather, so we know it works!
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#32002
04/27/03 04:23 PM
04/27/03 04:23 PM
|
Full Member
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 148
Naches, WA
|
|
Thanks for the welcomes, Daryl and Mark. I do enjoy, and benefit from, dialog on Bible topics. Here are some additional important quotes for this thread that may help answer Daryl's question: quote:
"Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory..." Jude 1:24.
"He who has not sufficient faith in Christ to believe that he can keep him from sinning, has not the faith that will give him an entrance into the kingdom of God." EGW in RH 3-10-1904.
Now let's put that in context:
quote:
The humility that bears fruit, filling the soul with a sense of the love of God, will speak for the one who has cherished it, in the great day when men will be rewarded according as their works have been. Happy will be the one of whom it can then be said, "The Spirit never stirred this man's soul in vain. He went forward and upward from strength to strength. Self was not woven into his life. Each message of correction and counsel he received as a blessing from God. Thus the way was prepared for him to receive still greater blessings, because God did not speak to him in vain. Each step upward on the ladder of progress prepared him to climb still higher. From the top of the ladder the bright beams of God's glory shone upon him. He did not think of resting, but sought constantly to attain to the wisdom and righteousness of Christ. Ever he pressed toward the mark of the prize of his high calling in Christ."
This experience every one who is saved must have. In the day of judgment the course of the man who has retained the frailty and imperfection of humanity will not be vindicated. For him there will be no place in heaven; he could not enjoy the perfection of the saints in light. He who has not sufficient faith in Christ to believe that he can keep him from sinning, has not the faith that will give him an entrance into the kingdom of God. EGW in RH 3-10-1904.
I will explain further in the next post.
Stan
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#32003
04/27/03 10:27 PM
04/27/03 10:27 PM
|
Full Member
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 148
Naches, WA
|
|
quote:
Christ had two natures, the nature of a man and the nature of God. In him divinity and humanity were combined. Upon his mediatorial work hangs the hope of the perishing world. NO ONE but Christ has ever succeeded in living a perfect life, in living a pure, spotless character. He exhibited a perfect humanity, COMBINED WITH DIETY, and by preserving each nature distinct, he has given to the world a representation of the character of God and the character of a perfect man. He shows us what God is, and WHAT MAN MAY BECOME--godlike in character. EGW in the General Conference Bulletin 10-1-1899.
Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that HUMANITY, COMBINED WITH DIVINITY, DOES NOT COMMIT SIN. (Repeat, “HUMANITY, COMBINED WITH DIVINITY, DOES NOT COMMIT SIN”!). MH 180.
Keep in mind that Christ did NOT overcome in His own divine nature. He “emptied Himself” and was then strengthened to overcome by the same power promised to us — the power of the Holy Spirit. HUMANITY AND DIVINITY COMBINED:
quote:
To Jesus, who emptied Himself (Phil 2:7) for the salvation of lost humanity, the Holy Spirit was given without measure (John 3:34). So it will be given to every follower of Christ when the whole heart is surrendered for His indwelling (Luke 11:13). Our Lord Himself has given the command, "Be filled with the Spirit" (Ephesians 5:18), and this command is also a promise of its fulfillment. It was the good pleasure of the Father that in Christ should "all the FULLNESS dwell," and "in Him ye are made full." Colossians 1:19, R.V.; 2:10, R.V. MB 20.
The indwelling of the Spirit will be shown by the outflowing of heavenly LOVE. The divine fullness will flow through the consecrated human agent, to be given forth to others….The religion of Christ means more than the forgiveness of sin; it means taking away our sins, and filling the vacuum with the graces of the Holy Spirit. It means divine illumination, rejoicing in God. It means a heart emptied of self, and blessed with the abiding presence of Christ. COL 419.
Just in proportion as we empty the soul temple of self-sufficiency, self-dependence, and self-exaltation, will we realize the work that needs to be done to purify the soul, body, and spirit before we can be filled with all the fulness of God. When this work is done the power of God will be revealed, and the truth will be a mighty power in enlightening the mind, sanctifying the soul and spirit. Then genuine conversions will be made to Bible truth. EGW in Bible Training School 10-1-1910.
Paul prayed that we might be, "strengthened with might by His Spirit in the inner man...that WE might be filled with all the FULLNESS of God," among other things. Ephesians 3:14-19. Since this gives us the power for victorious living, we need to pray more for the Holy Spirit to work in our lives.
quote:
And this I pray, that your LOVE may abound yet MORE AND MORE in knowledge and in all judgment; That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and WITHOUT OFFENCE till the day of Christ. Philippians 1:9-10.
And the Lord make you to INCREASE and abound in LOVE one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you: To the end he may establish your hearts UNBLAMEABLE in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. 1 Thes 3:12-13.
LOVE to man is the earthward manifestation of the LOVE of God. It was to implant this LOVE, to make us children of one family, that the King of glory became one with us. And when His parting words are fulfilled, "LOVE one another, as I have loved you" (John 15:12); WHEN WE LOVE the world as He has loved it, then for us His mission is accomplished. WE ARE FITTED FOR HEAVEN; for we have heaven in our hearts. DA 641.
While our love will continually grow throughout eternity (MH 466; EGW in RH 10-22-1908), notice that it will “eventually” become the primary motive in the church in a general way:
quote:
THE CHURCH is the repository of the riches of the grace of Christ; and through THE CHURCH will eventually be made manifest, even to "the principalities and powers in heavenly places," the final and full display of the LOVE of God. Ephesians 3:10. AA 9.
While we see many problem areas in the church, let’s remember promises like this to give us encouragement. Bailing out is not the answer.
Stan
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#32004
04/29/03 04:30 PM
04/29/03 04:30 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Jesus' promise is - Be perfect even as God is perfect. He didn't say, Go and work on becoming perfect. He simply said, Be perfect. There is a huge difference between being perfect and becoming perfect. And Jesus said, Be perfect. So who are we to argue with God?
Obviously Jesus' promise of moral purity and perfection has nothing to do with our sinful nature or our moral strengths or weaknesses. Nor does it depend on years of sinning and repenting less and less until we're too old to care. The promises of God do not depend on old age.
People who argue against God's promises are serving the wrong side of the great controversy. Either Jesus' promises of perfection are true or they are not. If they are true then God is right. If they're not then Satan is right. The sooner the world can take sides the sooner Jesus can return.
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#32005
04/29/03 05:18 PM
04/29/03 05:18 PM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2014
Most Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 2,019
Northern CA
|
|
Amen Mike...God has not told us to "try and be perfect". He tells us to "be perfect" I like this Spirit of Prophecy quote that talks about this and shows us that it is through Jesus we can become perfect in our sphere as He was perfect in His sphere. It is all a matter of what we are choosing to do. We can either choose to sin or choose not to sin. It is really that simple. So how come we as humans have such a problem with this? I think it is because deep down we like what we are doing and do not want to give it up so we hang on to this saying, "I am only human". Well Jesus was human also...and he overcame...How? quote:
Perfection Now?
God's Amazing Grace
Page 230
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matt. 5:48.\
When God gave His Son to the world, He made it possible for men and women to be perfect by the use of every capability of their beings to the glory of God. In Christ He gave to them the riches of His grace, and a knowledge of His will. As they would empty themselves of self, and learn to walk in humility, leaning on God for guidance, men would be enabled to fulfill God's high purpose for them.
Perfection of character is based upon that which Christ is to us. If we have constant dependence on the merits of our Saviour, and walk in His footsteps, we shall be like Him, pure and undefiled.
Our Saviour does not require impossibilities of any soul. He expects nothing of His disciples that He is not willing to give them grace and strength to perform. He would not call upon them to be perfect if He had not at His command every perfection of grace to bestow on the ones upon whom He would confer so high and holy a privilege. . . .
Our work is to strive to attain in our sphere of action the perfection that Christ in His life on the earth attained in every phase of character. He is our example. In all things we are to strive to honor God in character. . . . We are to be wholly dependent on the power that He has promised to give us.
Jesus revealed no qualities, and exercised no powers, that men may not have through faith in Him. His perfect humanity is that which all His followers may possess, if they will be in subjection to God as He was.
Our Saviour is a Saviour for the perfection of the whole man. He is not the God of part of the being only. The grace of Christ works to the disciplining of the whole human fabric. He made all. He has redeemed all. He has made the mind, the strength, the body as well as the soul, partaker of the divine nature, and all is His purchased possession. He must be served with the whole mind, heart, soul, and strength. Then the Lord will be glorified in His saints in even the common, temporal things with which they are connected. "Holiness unto the Lord" will be in the inscription placed upon them.
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#32006
04/29/03 09:53 PM
04/29/03 09:53 PM
|
|
|
Maybe one of the reasons we argue so much over the text "Be ye therefore perfect", is because it might be expressing Christ's goal for us, his wish for us. Maybe some of us mistake it to mean that Christ requires us to be perfect, or else.
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#32007
05/01/03 03:20 AM
05/01/03 03:20 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
God requires moral perfection of us or else He loses the great controversy. Perfect obedience is either possible or it isn't. God cannot, without jeopardizing the security of the universe, save us with our sins. Satan contends that perfect obedience is impossible, and all who believe and preach this lie are in league with the Enemy of God and Man. If God cannot empower us to live without sinning then Satan is right and all of us, including the unfallen angels and worlds, must perish in the lake of fire.
The Desire of Ages, page 671, paragraph 3
Chapter Title: "Let Not Your Heart Be Troubled"
Of the Spirit Jesus said, "He shall glorify Me." The Saviour came to glorify the Father by the demonstration of His love; so the Spirit was to glorify Christ by revealing His grace to the world. The very image of God is to be reproduced in humanity. The honor of God, the honor of Christ, is involved in the perfection of the character of His people.
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#32008
05/01/03 03:20 AM
05/01/03 03:20 AM
|
|
|
Isn't arguing a rather strong word? I prefer to think of us discussing the text rather than arguing it.
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#32009
04/30/03 09:27 PM
04/30/03 09:27 PM
|
Most Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
|
|
Hello, Interestingly enough I have read in the bible that Christ died for us while we were yet sinners quote:
Romans 5:7-9
7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
quote:
James 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
This tells me that as unbelieving sinners doing whatever we felt like Christ died for us, and after we have accepted Christ we have been justified by our faith and saved by His blood, and not doing the right thing when the Holy Spirit is telling you to do the right thing and you dont do it is still sin. However I think the idea is not to go on sinning, but if you do sin because of whatever reason you can ask for forgiveness. We cannot say that we live a life without sin because we are in a world of sin and it is our nature, but it is through Christ that we overcome, some overcome more than others throughout there lives, but as you grow in Christ you will not have the desire to be commited to those things you use to do. YOu will actually begin to hate the old way of life since we have a new life in Christ. AMEN!
God Bless,
Will
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#32010
05/02/03 03:01 AM
05/02/03 03:01 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Will wrote - "We cannot say that we live a life without sin because we are in a world of sin and it is our nature...."
Will, I think I understand what you mean by this statement, but it can be taken to mean we cannot live without sinning because we have sinful natures. You and I both agree God does not hold us accountable or guilty simply because our sinful nature generates and communicates unholy tempting thoughts and feelings.
Jesus was born with the same sinful nature we inherited at birth. and He lived in a world full of sin. But in spite of these two things He was able to live without sinning. His life proves that born again believers, who walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man do not and cannot commit a known sin. This is the good news - the gospel!
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#32011
05/01/03 04:22 PM
05/01/03 04:22 PM
|
Most Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
|
|
Hi Mike, I agree.. I was reading my bible last night it was 1 John 3:8,9 quote:
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
and the word commit had a number by it, so I looked it up and the literal translation was practicing, so if I understand correctly if you continue practicing sin (committing,committed to it) then you are not from God basically because you have not given up your old ways. This doesn't mean that there is no hope, but to continue practcing sin is definitely not the right things to do if you are a believer, but there is hope a blessed Hope that will make all things possible through Him:)
God Bless,
Will
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#32012
05/03/03 06:18 AM
05/03/03 06:18 AM
|
Full Member
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 148
Naches, WA
|
|
PLEASE READ ESPECIALLY THE SECOND QUOTE BELOW, if you don't have time for the rest: Notice the emphasis below for us to be ever "STRIVING" with all our powers and "REACHING" ever higher: quote:
"Are we striving with all our God-given powers to reach the measure of the stature of men and women in Christ? Are we seeking for His fullness, ever reaching higher and higher, trying to attain to the perfection of His character? When God's servants reach this point, they will be sealed in their foreheads." Last Day Events, page 222.
Now notice that this "REACHING" forward "will continue through eternity."
quote:
"It is our lifework to be reaching forward to the perfection of Christian character, striving continually for conformity to the will of God. The efforts begun upon earth will continue through eternity." 4T 520.
This reminds me of what Paul wrote, and I emphasize the growing state of increasing "more and more" in order to be "pure and blameless." Growth is an indication of life and assurance that the Holy spirit is working in us:
quote:
And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless until the day of Christ, filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ--to the glory and praise of God. " Philippians 1:9-11 niv.
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. Romans 13:10.
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people. Romans 8:10.
Peace and joy, in perfect submission to the will of Heaven, existed throughout the angelic host. Love to God was supreme, love for one another impartial. Such was the condition that existed for ages before the entrance of sin. 4SP 316.
No wonder Paul wrote:
quote:
The GOAL of our instruction is LOVE from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 1 Timothy 1:5 nasb.
All the great things we may do are worthless unless motivated by LOVE. 1 Corinthians 13:1-3.
The three great motive powers for Christian service are faith, hope, and love; "but the greatest of these is love." 1 Corinthians 13:13.
Stan
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#32013
05/03/03 11:08 AM
05/03/03 11:08 AM
|
|
|
Another principle the SDA are always promulgating is that the instant you sin you are out the door until such time as you repent. Actually we are in harness with Jesus like two horses as a team. Just because I stumble it doesn't mean the harness snaps off and I'm on my own until I get myself right.
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#32014
05/03/03 11:18 AM
05/03/03 11:18 AM
|
|
|
And I believe that Mike Lowe dwells in an academic ivory tower of lovely words strung together that have little relation to real life for human beings in a sinful world. That kind of "logic" about being able to live a sinless life is just what causes so many people to get discouraged and leave the SDA church, especially the young. It totally ignores what happens in a real person in his dealings with his real moral situations. It is one of those assumptions by the leadership of the SDA church that made me leave it in discouragement for several decades. I eventually took the courage to study for myself the sinner's relation to Christ, and was able to return to the SDA faith in a more realistic way. See my post above about being in harness with Jesus as a team.
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#32015
05/04/03 03:40 AM
05/04/03 03:40 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Stan, thank you for sharing those encouraging quotes. Indeed, freedom from sinning is God's goal for us now and forever. Thank you Jesus. By the grace of God we are able to mature daily in the fruits of the Spirit. And the beautiful thing about it is eternity is not long enough to max out God's ability to grow us more and more like Jesus. Amen!
It's sad though when good intentioned Christians interpret the inspired quotes that teach we must "die daily" and "overcome our besetting sins" and "grow in grace" to mean we will continue to sin and repent and discover new unknown defective traits of character until the day Jesus replaces our sinful nature with a sinless one.
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#32016
05/04/03 03:47 AM
05/04/03 03:47 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Restin, I'm not sure why you're so insulted by the idea that Jesus can empower us here and now to live without sinning???? As a youth pastor I can assure you that the young people who grasp the truth about salvation are on fire for Jesus. I am sorry that the way you learned salvation as a young person turned you against the Church and Jesus. I do not doubt your experience back then. But I hope and pray (forgive me if I'm making you feel nauseous) that as you discover the truth about rebirth and moral perfection it will make you on fire for Jesus too - instead of making you despise me.
By the way, if we stumble and fall and refuse to repent of our sin we are at that precise moment unsaved. Jesus cannot justify our sin if we refuse to confess and forsake it. But a true born again believer will immediately exercize the gift of repentance and confess and forsake any and all sins he is convicted of. Jesus has promised!
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#32017
05/03/03 08:43 PM
05/03/03 08:43 PM
|
Full Member
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 148
Naches, WA
|
|
Restin wrote: quote:
Another principle the SDA are always promulgating is that the instant you sin you are out the door until such time as you repent.
Perhaps the following will help:
quote:
"Any one act, either good or evil, does not form the character, but thoughts and feelings indulged, prepare the way for acts and deeds of the same kind." EGW in YI 12-15-1886.
"The harvest of life is character, and it is this that determines destiny, both for this life and for the life to come." EGW in Ed 108.
And remember that, quote:
we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:10.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Philippians 2:13.
Our "will" is strengthened by the strong motives of faith, hope, and love. And these are the fruit of the Spirit.
quote:
The great motive powers of the soul are faith, hope, and love; and it is to these that Bible study, rightly pursued, appeals. Ed 192.
That's why Paul wrote:
quote:
The GOAL of our instruction is LOVE from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 1 Timothy 1:5 nasb.
But without FAITH it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6.
For we are saved by HOPE: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. Romans 8:24-25.
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man sows (by thoughts, words, and actions), that shall he also reap. For he who sows to his flesh (Galatians 5:19-21) shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23) shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. Galatians 6:7-8.
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#32018
05/03/03 10:21 PM
05/03/03 10:21 PM
|
|
|
The quote posted by Stan: quote:
"Any one act, either good or evil, does not form the character, but thoughts and feelings indulged, prepare the way for acts and deeds of the same kind." EGW in YI 12-15-1886.
The above quote would compliment the thought that the Bible verse quoted in an earlier post does refer to practicing sins rather than committing any one sin.
It is the practicing sins that form the character.
Does this then explain what Christ meant when He said to the woman caught in adultery to no longer practice this sin as well as to sin no more with the focus being on no longer practicing the sin of adultery?
From another quote in this topic, it also seems to me that those who actually sin no more are the living saints who are sealed. Is this referring to the translation generation (the 144,000) just before Christ returns?
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#32019
05/03/03 10:55 PM
05/03/03 10:55 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Daryl, perhaps you are confusing sin that leads to damnation versus sin that leads to character. Just because it requires repeated failures in a particular area in order to form character does not mean that one sin will not keep us out of heaven. One sin was all it took to banish our parents from the Garden of Eden. And it only takes one unpardoned sin to keep us out of heaven.
It would be a mistake to assume that 1 John 3:9 is talking about sinning and repenting rather than not sinning at all. And if not sinning is reserved only for the 144,000 then God's promises of perfection apply to them only as well. Thus we have no business expecting God to empower us now to cease from sin. 1 Peter 4:1,2.
What will God do differently in future, that He is unwilling or unable to do for us now, that will make it possible for the 144,000 to cease sinning?
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#32020
05/03/03 11:41 PM
05/03/03 11:41 PM
|
|
|
I believe that if we are in a relationship with Jesus Christ and we commit a one act of sin, we will confess and repent of that sin which will then maintain our relationship with Christ.
I don't believe the relationship with Christ is lost between the committing of that one act of sin and the confessing and repenting of that sin.
I believe that it is the repeating of that sin that constitutes practicing sin.
I also believe that the difference of those who no longer sin is the fact that they have been sealed.
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#32021
05/04/03 01:46 AM
05/04/03 01:46 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Daryl, can you please address the following questions:
1. What will God do differently in future, that He is unwilling or unable to do for us now, that will make it possible for the 144,000 to completely cease sinning?
2. What does 1 John 3:9 mean?
3. Where in the Bible does it teach we are saved and justified after we sin but before we repent?
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#32022
05/04/03 02:24 AM
05/04/03 02:24 AM
|
|
|
Yes, I agree that God is able to empower us not to sin and to be perfect. He could also empower me to not have tooth decay, or not make mistakes that get me in financial trouble. But someone eons ago in the great universe questioned God's right to empower his subjects. He called those people slaves and puppets under the power of God. So here we are on this stage of demonstration, where much of God's empowering ability is restrained that all may see that He does not force his subjects to be perfect, or even be better faster than they are willing or able to go. And it is under the cross and grace of Christ that people are able to develope their relationship to God, from very far from Him, to very near...at their own pace, not yours!
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#32023
05/04/03 07:06 AM
05/04/03 07:06 AM
|
Full Member
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 148
Naches, WA
|
|
Here's a couple more interesting and inspired statements for this thread: quote:
That which will bless humanity is spiritual life. If the man is in harmony with God, he will depend continually upon him for strength. "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect." It should be our life-work to press forward continually toward the perfection of Christian character, ever striving for conformity to the will of God, remembering that the efforts begun upon earth will continue throughout eternity. EGW in ST 6-17-1886.
Those who are seeking to acquire knowledge in the schools of earth should remember that another school also claims them as students,--the school of Christ. From this school the students are never graduated. Among the pupils are both old and young. Those who give heed to the instructions of the divine Teacher are constantly gaining more wisdom and nobility of soul, and thus they are prepared to enter that higher school, where advancement will continue throughout eternity. EGW in RH 8-22-1912.
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#32024
05/05/03 03:30 AM
05/05/03 03:30 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Amen! Thank you Restin and Stan.
Jesus began perfect and He became perfect. Think about that. If He was born perfect how could He become more perfect? Isn't perfect perfect? How can we improve upon perfection? Easy! Like the light that "shineth more and more unto the perfect day" (Prov 4:18), so too eternity isn't long enough to exhaust our potential to become more and more like Jesus.
But the difference between each stage of growth is not less sin, rather it's more righteousness, a deeper and more mature form of it. That's how it was for Jesus as He grew from childhood to manhood. He began perfect, that is, He possessed all the fruit and righteous attributes of God when He was born a babe in Bethlehem, but as He grew in grace He matured more and more in them. He did not accumulate or acquire fruit or attributes He did not possess at birth. He was born complete. And we are born again complete in the same way Jesus was.
We are born again perfect. The implanted mind of the new man comes complete with all the fruit and righteous attributes of God. Not one is missing. But we must grow and mature in them in the same way Jesus did. And the growth we experience as we mature does not involve sinning and repenting or discovering new and unknown defective traits of character. It didn't work that way for Jesus and it doesn't work that way for born again believers who are actively and aggressively walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man.
I need to clarify that we are born again morally perfect, not necessarily mentally or intellectually perfect. But neither was Jesus born mentally perfect. He too had to grow in knowledge as He passed from childhood to manhood.
This is good news.
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#32025
05/05/03 03:38 AM
05/05/03 03:38 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Daryl, can you please address the following questions:
1. What will God do differently in future, that He is unwilling or unable to do for us now, that will make it possible for the 144,000 to completely cease sinning?
2. What does 1 John 3:9 literally mean when it says born again believers do not and cannot sin?
3. Where in the Bible does it teach we are saved and justified after we sin but before we repent?
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#32026
05/05/03 09:08 PM
05/05/03 09:08 PM
|
|
|
Mike Lowe, in response to your concern about my posts, I want to say I certainly do not despise you. I believe your heart is sincere. It's not easy to be a youth pastor as you are. I just feel that you kinda go to one extreme of the pendulum about perfection topics. You know how it is possible for anyone to get on one side of a Bible subject and bring forth endless scripture to support their view. We see it all the time. Im sure you believe you are absolutely perfect about perfection, as you quote scripture to "prove" it. But others, such as Stan McCluskey, are balanced better (seems to me)and I would a thousand times rather confide my personal agonies to Stan than ever I would to someone perfect like you...especially when I was young and rambunctious and dared to go where angels fear to tread. My problem with you, I think, is that it doesn't allow for the real stuff of life that people get all tangled up in. You seem to me to have a nice string of words from the Bible, but not dipping into all that which lurks in the hearts of mankind. Nothing personal, but is my reaction as I had a very long way to go to get back to the ways of the Bible and SDA. And still not there yet.
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#32027
05/05/03 09:32 PM
05/05/03 09:32 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Restin, thank you for explaining how you feel about my ideas on perfection and rebirth. Thank God there are people out there you feel good about seeking spiritual advice and counsel. God is good.
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#32028
05/06/03 02:34 AM
05/06/03 02:34 AM
|
Full Member
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 148
Naches, WA
|
|
I will humbly attempt a reply to the questions addressed to Daryl by Mike. I believe we are all very close to the same understanding on this : 1. What will God do differently in future, that He is unwilling or unable to do for us now, that will make it possible for the 144,000 to completely cease sinning? Answer: He will for those saved, including those sealed, ETERNALLY blot out their sins from the records AND from their CONSCIOUSNESS: quote:
“Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.” Acts 3:19.
“For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more CONSCIOUSNESS of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every YEAR.” Hebrews 10:1-3. (An obvious reference to the Day of Atonement).
“I saw that it would take time to lead away the Scape Goat into the land of forgetfulness after the sins were put on his head.” EGW in Spalding-Megan Collection p 2.
“Their sins had been borne away into the land of forgetfulness, and they could not bring them to remembrance.” 3SG 134.
“When Jesus leaves the sanctuary, then they who are holy and righteous will be holy and righteous still; for all their sins will then be blotted out, and they will be sealed with the seal of the living God.” EW 48.
“We may talk of the blessings of the Holy Spirit, but unless we prepare ourselves for its reception, of what avail are our works? Are we striving with all our power to attain to the stature of men and women in Christ? Are we seeking for his fullness, ever pressing toward the mark set before us,--the perfection of his character? When the Lord's people reach this mark, they will be sealed in their foreheads. Filled with the Spirit, they will be complete in Christ, and the recording angel will declare, ‘It is finished.’” EGW in RH 6-10-1902.
2. What does 1 John 3:9 literally mean when it says born again believers do not and cannot sin?
Answer: It means the powerful “LAW of the Spirit of life” (the mind set on “things of the Spirit”) working in us, to develop the motive of love in our hearts for God and man, will enable us to overcome all temptations and trials. Romans 8:2-6; 13-14. 1 Corinthians 13:13 nasb.
quote:
“No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he CANNOT go on sinning, because he has been born of God.” 1 John 3:9 niv. Why? Because, “You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.” 1 John 4:4 nkjv.
“Christ came to make us ‘partakers of the divine nature,’ and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin.” MH 180. But note these words of caution: “It takes TIME to transform the human to the divine, or to degrade those formed in the image of God to the brutal or the satanic. By beholding we become changed.” 2T 478. We are to “GROW in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” 2 Peter 3:18 nkjv. “Speaking the truth [Eph 1:4] in love, we are to [Eph 2:21] grow up in all aspects into Him who is the [Eph 1:22] head, even Christ.” Ephesians 4:15 niv.
3. Where in the Bible does it teach we are saved and justified after we sin but before we repent?
Answer: Surely, God expects us ALL to repent of any known sin, when we can. But God understands the complexities of a busy life; and it is often while on our knees at the close of the day that we finally consider, remember, and ask Him for forgiveness. (For David it took MUCH longer. 2 Samuel 11-12). But note the PEACE and ASSURANCE that should be ours THROUGHOUT the GROWTH process:
quote:
”By faith we have been made acceptable to God. And now, because of our Lord Jesus Christ, we live at PEACE with God. Christ has also introduced us to God's undeserved kindness on which we take our stand. So we are happy, as we look forward to sharing in the glory of God. But that's not all! We gladly suffer, because we know that suffering helps us to endure. And endurance builds character, which gives us a hope that will never disappoint us. All of this happens because God has given us the Holy Spirit, who fills our hearts with his love.” Romans 5:1-5 cev.
“Bible history stays the fainting heart with the hope of God's mercy. We need not despair when we see that others have struggled through discouragements like our own, have fallen into temptations even as we have done, and yet have recovered their ground and been blessed of God. The words of inspiration comfort and cheer the erring soul.” 4T 15.
“God's all-seeing eye notes the defects of all and the ruling passion of each, yet He bears with our mistakes and pities our weakness. He bids His people cherish the same spirit of tenderness and forbearance.” 5T 95.
“Do not draw back in despair. We shall often have to bow down and weep at the feet of Jesus because of our shortcomings and mistakes, but we are not to be discouraged. Even if we are overcome by the enemy, we are not cast off, not forsaken and rejected of God. No; Christ is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Said the beloved John, "These things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." 1 John 2:1. And do not forget the words of Christ, "The Father Himself loveth you." John 16:27. He desires to restore you to Himself, to see His own purity and holiness reflected in you. And if you will but yield yourself to Him, He that hath begun a good work in you will carry it forward to the day of Jesus Christ. Pray more fervently; believe more fully. As we come to distrust our own power, let us trust the power of our Redeemer, and we shall praise Him who is the health of our countenance.” SC 64.
“Our infirmities may be many, our mistakes and sins numerous, but forgiveness is for all who, with contrition of heart, will confess and forsake their sins.” The Upward Look 82.
Now note what is MOST VALUED by God:
quote:
“Of all things that are sought, cherished, and cultivated, there is nothing so valuable in the sight of God as a pure heart, A DISPOSITION IMBUED WITH THANKFULNESS AND PEACE.” 4T 559.
Jesus said: “I give you peace, the kind of peace that only I can give. It isn't like the peace that this world can give. So don't be worried or afraid.” John 14:27 cev.
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#32029
05/07/03 03:43 AM
05/07/03 03:43 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Stan, thank you for answering the questions. I hope you don't mind me asking for further clarification.
1. Does blotting out our memry of specific sins empower us to cease sinning? or does Jesus do it because we have already ceased sinning?
5T 472-476
Zechariah's vision of Joshua and the Angel applies with peculiar force to the experience of God's people in the closing up of the great day of atonement… [Satan] endeavors to affright the soul with the thought that their case is hopeless, that the stain of their defilement will never be washed away. He hopes to so destroy their faith that they will yield to his temptations, turn from their allegiance to God, and receive the mark of the beast…
But while the followers of Christ have sinned, they have not given themselves to the control of evil. They have put away their sins, and have sought the Lord in humility and contrition, and the divine Advocate pleads in their behalf… The people of God are sighing and crying for the abominations done in the land. With tears they warn the wicked of their danger in trampling upon the divine law, and with unutterable sorrow they humble themselves before the Lord on account of their own transgressions…
As the people of God afflict their souls before Him, pleading for purity of heart, the command is given, "Take away the filthy garments" from them, and the encouraging words are spoken, "Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment." … Their names are retained in the Lamb's book of life, enrolled among the faithful of all ages… While Satan was urging his accusations and seeking to destroy this company, holy angels, unseen, were passing to and fro, placing upon them the seal of the living God. These are they that stand upon Mount Zion with the Lamb, having the Father's name written in their foreheads.
EW 71.2
I saw that none could share the "refreshing" unless they obtain the victory over every besetment, over pride, selfishness, love of the world, and over every wrong word and action.
2. Are we born again with or without our moral defects of character? When is it true that we do not and cannot commit a known sin?
3. When does God offer us the gift of repentance - immediately after we sin or several hours after we sin? And are we saved or unsaved if we delay exercising the gift of repentance?
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#32030
05/07/03 06:24 AM
05/07/03 06:24 AM
|
Full Member
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 148
Naches, WA
|
|
Mike, Please be careful. Your questions seem to illustrate a pharisaical works-approach to perfection and overcoming sin. But the Bible clearly explains that “we are HIS workmanship.” Eph 2:10. We must cooperate; but we cannot press ahead of the Master Workman in our lives: quote:
“At EVERY stage of development our life may be PERFECT; yet if God's purpose for us is fulfilled, there will be CONTINUAL advancement.” COL 65.
Jesus is looking for this state of CONTINUAL ADVANCEMENT (Phil. 1:9-11), in developing the fruit of the Spirit— which He called the “weightier provisions of the law” Matt. 23:23; Luke 11:42—while we avoid known sins. James 4:17.
Compare the same balance in Romans 12:1-2 and Philippians 2:12-13. And remember what Jesus said: “If you love Me, you WILL keep my commandments.” John 14:15 nasb.
Notice how development of this heart-love motive by the Spirit is illustrated and emphasized in the Good Samaritan story: quote:
“The lawyer's question to Jesus had been, ‘What shall I do (to be saved)?’ And Jesus, recognizing love to God and man as the sum of righteousness, had said, ‘This do, and thou shalt live.’ The SAMARITAN had obeyed the dictates of a kind and loving heart, and in this had proved himself A DOER OF THE LAW.” DA 504.
Compare that with what Paul wrote about DOING BY NATURE what the law requires: quote:
“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, DO BY NATURE things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the REQUIREMENTS of the law are WRITTEN ON THEIR HEARTS, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them. Romans 2:13-15 niv.
"LOVE does no wrong to a neighbor. LOVE, therefore, IS THE FULFILLMENT OF THE LAW.” Romans 13:10 nasb.
quote:
“Wherever there is an impulse of love and sympathy, wherever the heart reaches out to bless and uplift others, there is revealed the working of God's Holy Spirit...The Holy Spirit has implanted the grace of Christ in the heart of the savage, quickening his sympathies contrary to his NATURE, contrary to his education. The ‘Light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world’ (John 1:9), is shining in his soul; and this light, if heeded, will guide his feet to the kingdom of God.” COL 385.
Now, Mike, here’s your questions:
quote:
1. Does blotting out our memory of specific sins empower us to cease sinning? or does Jesus do it because we have already ceased sinning?
Blotting out our memory of past sins is just one part of the process. So far, Christ alone has lived with no memory of past sins. An even greater part is explained by Peter in that same verse: “...So as may come” the latter rain of the Holy Spirit. Acts 3:19. It is this full and final display of the Holy Spirit’s power that will strengthen us to overcome. Christ “proved that humanity and divinity combined can obey every one of God's precepts.” COL 314.
It is this power of the Holy Spirit that will produce in us “a settling into the truth, both intellectually and spiritually, so (we) cannot be moved.” Manuscript Releases Volume One, page 249-250.
quote:
2a. Are we born again with or without our moral defects of character?
To be "born again" means a new start. “It takes time to transform the human to the divine>“ 2T 478.
quote:
2b. When is it true that we do not and cannot commit a known sin?
“So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, THERE WILL BE NO STOPPING PLACE, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience.” AA 560-561.
But remember those promised “times of refreshing.” Acts 3:19. AND the assurance that, “...humanity and divinity combined can obey every one of God's precepts.” COL 314.
quote:
3. When does God offer us the gift of repentance - immediately after we sin or several hours after we sin? And are we saved or unsaved if we delay exercising the gift of repentance?
I believe those are poorly stated questions. On the cross Jesus said, “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.” Luke 23:34. So forgiveness is ALWAYS freely offered; but it is for us to accept it by repentance (the recognition of wrong and sincere desire for forgiveness). This comes through the working of the Spirit on our hearts to CONVICT us of sin. John 16:8 nasb. Naturally, it’s dangerous to delay repentance; but remember that Christ ALONE will be the Judge. John 5:22. Don’t try to do that for Him.
Mike. Remember that “we are accepted in the Beloved.” Ephesians 1:6. Ellen White emphasizes this 91 times. “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.” Titus 3:5. And it’s the TREND OF THE LIFE that counts:
quote:
“Our CHARACTERS are not to be weighed by smooth words and fair speeches manufactured for set times and occasions; but by the spirit and TREND of the whole life.” EGW in RH 8-16-1892. “The harvest of life is CHARACTER, and it is this that determines destiny, both for this life and for the life to come.” Ed 108. “Any ONE act, either good or evil, does NOT form the CHARACTER, but thoughts and feelings indulged, prepare the way for acts and deeds of the same kind.” EGW in YI 12-15-1886.
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#32031
05/08/03 03:19 AM
05/08/03 03:19 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Stan, again thank you for taking the time to thoroughly address the issues I've raised. Please forgive me for being so slow. But it appears from the way you answered my questions, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that you are of the school of thought which teaches 1) we can, by the grace of God, live up to all the light we have been given, but that 2) we will come short of moral character perfection this side of eternity, and 3) we will not experience complete moral character perfection until the investigative judgment when our past sins and our remaining unknown defects of character are blotted out.
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#32032
05/08/03 04:01 AM
05/08/03 04:01 AM
|
Full Member
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 148
Naches, WA
|
|
1) As Peter discovered, we do not know our own hearts until tested. Matthew 26:33-35. quote:
“Until tested and proved in the furnace of trial, we do not know ourselves.” 6T 396.
“Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, But the LORD weighs the hearts.” Proverbs 21:2.
“There is a generation that is pure in its own eyes, Yet is not washed from its filthiness.” Proverbs 30:12.
“Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, And prudent in their own sight!” Isaiah 5:21.
“God is pleased with men who do not think that they have attained perfection, but who are constantly trying to improve. He would have us come into connection with Him, and increase in understanding, and reform our habits, ever rising higher, and approaching nearer the standard of perfection.” EGW in RH 2-5-1880.
“Do not be discouraged because you see that your character is defective. The closer you come to Jesus, the more faulty you will appear in your own eyes; for your vision will be clearer, and your imperfections will be seen in distinct contrast with his perfect character. EGW in Bible Echo 12-1-1892.
2) “Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart." 1 Samuel 16:7. So motives are the critical factor for God; and we cannot read motives.
quote:
“Every course of action has a twofold character and importance. It is virtuous or vicious, right or wrong, according to the MOTIVE which prompts it.” EGW in RH 5-17-1898.
“The religion of Christ is something more than talk. The righteousness of Christ consists in right actions and good works from pure, unselfish MOTIVES. Outside righteousness, while the inward adorning is wanting, will be of no avail.” 3T 528.
“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin...Every act is judged by the MOTIVES that prompt it.” COL 316.
“The great MOTIVE powers of the soul are faith, hope, and love; and it is to these that Bible study, rightly pursued, appeals.” ED 192.
3) We should never expect to reach a plateau of spiritual perfection. As with any living thing, LIFE IS MADE EVIDENT BY GROWTH.
quote:
“We shall never graduate in this life, but should keep every power upon the stretch for more knowledge….Never feel that you have attained to the highest point, and can therefore rise no higher….The very work that is essential for every one who receives the present truth, is to aim at perfection of character, and thoroughness in winning souls to Christ. Be determined that you will advance and improve in your work, and then you will be CONTINUALLY progressing; for those who have received this light feel that they must bring more of the Spirit of Christ into their own life and character as they advance, else they cannot bring it into the lives of others.” EGW in RH 7-26-1887.
4) This PROGRESSIVE experience will certainly lead us to a closer relationship with Jesus AND prepare us for TRANSLATION:
quote:
“We are living in an evil age. The perils of the last days thicken around us. Because iniquity abounds, the love of many waxes cold. Enoch walked with God three hundred years. Now the shortness of time seems to be urged as a motive to seek righteousness. Should it be necessary that the terrors of the day of God be held before us in order to compel us to right action? Enoch's case is before us. Hundreds of years he walked with God. He lived in a corrupt age, when moral pollution was teeming all around him; yet he trained his mind to devotion, to love purity. His conversation was upon heavenly things. He educated his mind to run in this channel, and he bore the impress of the divine. His countenance was lighted up with the light which shineth in the face of Jesus. Enoch had temptations as well as we. He was surrounded with society no more friendly to righteousness than is that which surrounds us. The atmosphere he breathed was tainted with sin and corruption, the same as ours; yet he lived a life of holiness. He was unsullied with the prevailing sins of the age in which he lived. SO MAY WE remain pure and uncorrupted. He was a representative of the saints who live amid the perils and corruptions of the last days. For his faithful obedience to God he was translated. So, also, the faithful, who are alive and remain, will be translated. They will be removed from a sinful and corrupt world to the pure joys of heaven.” 2T 121.
5) Let’s maintain the attitude of Paul, who obeyed God’s commands as he understood them; but had no confidence in them. Instead, his confidence was in Christ. Paul also said he had not already reached perfection; but he pressed toward the mark of the high calling of God. Philippians 3:3-14.
quote:
“The germination of the seed represents the beginning of spiritual life, and the development of the plant is a beautiful figure of Christian growth. As in nature, so in grace; there can be no life without growth. The plant must either grow or die. As its growth is silent and imperceptible, but continuous, so is the development of the Christian life. At EVERY stage of development our life may be PERFECT; yet if God's purpose for us is fulfilled, there will be CONTINUAL advancement. Sanctification is the work of a lifetime.” COL 65.
“Therefore, having been justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.” Romans 5:1-2.
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#32033
05/08/03 04:00 PM
05/08/03 04:00 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Stan, I'm still not clear on your position regarding moral perfection. Again please forgive for being so slow. The answers and quotes you shared above lead me to wonder the following:
1. Once we're born again what does growth in grace and spiritual advancement toward perfection involve? Does it involve sinning and repenting less and less often? or does it involve maturing in the fruits of the Spirit?
The reason I ask is because I'm under the impression Jesus demonstrated what it means to grow in grace and to advance in spiritual perfection. In His case, and as our example, growth in grace and spiritual advancement toward perfection did not involve sinning and repenting. Jesus was born perfect and yet He also became perfect.
Thus, I am assuming we too are born again morally perfect and that we too must advance toward perfection, which I take to mean we must mature in the fruits of the Spirit. But the growth we experience as we copy the Pattern, as we advance toward perfection, does not involve becoming less and less defective, but rather as it was with Jesus it involves becoming more and more mature in the fruits of the Spirit.
Do you see why I'm having trouble understanding your thoughts on perfection?
|
|
|
Re: Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?
#32034
05/09/03 09:04 PM
05/09/03 09:04 PM
|
Full Member
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 148
Naches, WA
|
|
Mike, Sorry I haven’t been more clear on this; but I’ll try again. It will be lengthy; but I hope it will be complete. Emphasis is mine in all references. I agree that we need to accept the words of Jesus, when He said: quote:
“If you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and NOTHING shall be impossible unto you.” Matthew 17:20.
Another time He said, quote:
“ALL things are possible to the one who believes.” Mark 9:23.
Add these words by EGW: quote:
“He who has not sufficient faith in Christ to believe that He CAN keep him from sinning, has not the faith that will give him an entrance into the kingdom of God.” EGW in RH 3-10-1904.
So why did James say that “we ALL stumble in many ways”? James 3:2 nasb. And why did John write, “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us”? 1 John 1:8.
Because, “the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.” Matthew 26:41. quote:
“Human frailties and human feelings are CONTINUALLY striving for the mastery.” 5T 109.
“I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for THE WILLING is present in me, but THE DOING of the good is not. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want....I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. For I JOYFULLY concur with the law of God in THE INNER MAN, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.” Romans 7:18-19, 21-23 nasb.
So, Mike, I look at the new birth experience as a change from being a WILLING sinner to being a WILLING servant of Jesus Christ. But while ”the WILLING is present in me...the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.” Romans 7:18-19 nasb.
Does this mean I don’t have sufficient faith in Christ to believe that He CAN keep me from sinning? Absolutely not! Why? Because He offers a solution, and I DO BELIEVE His words. It means I recognize that for me to win in that “good fight” against sin, I must continue to BELIEVE in Jesus AND submit to His instructions. I must enter by the Door that He provides, and not try to climb up by any other way. John 10:1, 9. And the way that He provides is one of continual spiritual growth that works FROM THE INSIDE OUT: quote:
“Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse FIRST that which is WITHIN the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.” Matthew 23:26.
“The heart is the treasure house of sin. Not being expelled, it is hidden until an hour of opportunity, and then is revealed and springs into action. The FIRST work is with the heart. (See Romans 12:2). Truth, the love of Jesus must supply the vacuum, Saith Christ, Make the tree good and the fruit will be good. . . .” Paulson Collection of EGW letters 344.
“As the leaven, when mingled with the meal, works FROM WITHIN OUTWARD, so it is by the renewing of the heart that the grace of God works to transform the life. No mere external change is sufficient to bring us into harmony with God. There are many who try to reform by correcting this or that bad habit, and they hope in this way to become Christians, but they are beginning in the wrong place. OUR FIRST WORK is with the heart.” COL 97.
Please note that this is exactly the solution Paul gives to that Romans 7 dilemma. And it is such a positive solution that he calls it A LAW: quote:
“For THE LAW of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death…(Not so we can keep on sinning, but) so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:2, 4 nasb.
And what is the essential FIRST step in walking according to the Spirit? quote:
“For those who are according to the flesh SET THEIR MINDS ON the things of the flesh (see James 1:14-15 & GC 558), but those who are according to the Spirit, (SET THEIR MINDS ON) the things of the Spirit. For THE MIND SET on the flesh is death, but THE MIND SET on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so...If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will ALSO GIVE LIFE (right actions) TO YOUR MORTAL BODIES through His Spirit who dwells in you.” Romans 8:5-7, 10-11 nasb. “For it is God who is at work in you BOTH to will AND TO WORK for His good pleasure.” Philippians 2:13 nasb. “Divine agencies are combining with the human in reshaping the character according to the perfect pattern, and man is to work out that which God works in.” 6T 129.
As we behold Jesus, the Holy Spirit is transforming us more and more (spirit, soul, and body) into the same image—”from glory to glory.” 2 Corinthians 3:18; 1 Thessalonians 5:23. And this CONTINUAL GROWTH is the process Paul referred to in Romans 5:1-2. By grace through faith, our past sins are forgiven; giving us peace with God. Then we enter (also by faith) into this grace period in which we stand. That grace is still needed because of our imperfections. And we hope for continual growth into the glorious likeness of our Savior.
quote:
“The natural, selfish MIND, if left to follow out its own evil desires, will act without high motives, without reference to the glory of God or the benefit of mankind. The thoughts will be evil, and only evil, continually. The soul can be in a state of peace ONLY by relying upon God, and by partaking of the divine nature through faith in the Son of God. The Spirit of God produces a new life in the soul, bringing the thoughts and desires into obedience to the will of Christ, and THE INWARD MAN is renewed in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things unto himself.” EGW in RH 6-12-1888.
Paul prayed that God “would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be STRENGTHENED WITH MIGHT” HOW? “by His Spirit in THE INNER MAN.” Ephesians 3:16.
quote:
“You should begin to act upon the light that God has given you. YOU MAY NOT BE ABLE TO DO THIS ALL AT ONCE, but you can do much by moving out GRADUALLY in FAITH, believing that God will be your helper, that He will strengthen you.” 3T 76.
“By taking one step after another, the highest ascent may be climbed, and the summit of the mount may be reached at last. Do not become overwhelmed with the great amount of work you must do in your lifetime, for YOU ARE NOT REQUIRED TO DO IT ALL AT ONCE.” EGW in YI 1-5-1893.
“We need to CATCH THE INSPIRATION of God's Spirit, AND THEN WORK with all the power He has given us to co-operate with Him in restoring the moral image of God in man. When we have done this, we shall feel indeed that we have not lived in vain.” EGW in Australian Union Conference Record 7-26-1899.
While walking the tightrope of life, SIMPLE COMMON SENSE DICTATES THAT WE MUST ALWAYS DO OUR BEST with God’s help to keep from falling; while ALWAYS remembering that the grace of Jesus is our Safety Net if we do fall. 1 John 2:1-2.
|
|
|
|
|
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
|
|
|
