I can not second guess the actions of the plumber, myself, I would have let it go until the next day or even down the road of the week.
There are some things that can not wait until the Sabbath is over [ remember that Christ asked which of them would leave an animal in a pit].
A litteral translation of the portion of the 4th commandment about not working on sabbath is 'do your occupation', what you do threough the week for pay.
If this young man did not accept pay for what he did, then in a strict legal definition, he didn't break the commandment.
That being said, it is better to avoid all appearence of evil.
Only God can determine the final out come.
Thank God He does it and we don't.

This has become an interesting and a divisive topic.

I think we should look at some activities that took place on the Sabbath, from both the Old Testament and the New Testament of the Scriptures, and see how particular God was about these particular activities.

Let us look and discuss each one, one at a time.

Let us begin with God's instructions about the Sabbath day itself.

quote:

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Exodus 20:8 "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

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The part in red doesn't forbid acts of mercy or work essential to the preservation of life and health that can't be performed on other days.

Christ said that it is always "lawful to do well on the Sabbath days." What He meant by that should be looked at later in a separate post, by the other things He said and did on the Sabbath day, by systematically looking at texts in both the Old and New Testaments relating to activities done on the Sabbath day.

Christ should be our Example in this area, therefore, let us look at Christ both as the Lawgiver and the Lawkeeper.

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In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

[This message has been edited by Daryl Fawcett (edited February 07, 2001).]

Even before the commandments were spoken from Sinai, instruction on how to keep the Sabbath had been given in Exodus 16:

22 And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses.
23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.
24 And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein.
25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field.
26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.
27 And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.
28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?
29 See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.
30 So the people rested on the seventh day.

Manna fell six days a week. Now, were the people hungry on the seventh day? Of course, but God provided an extra portion on the sixth day which they were to prepare on that day and it would keep for the Sabbath. They weren't to cook or bake or gather, but to rest from labor.

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Even so come, Lord Jesus
Linda

It seems a good time to moderate.

What is the definition of worship ?

What is the definition of Sabbath ?

What does inspiration ALONE say ?

The people the plumer helped were attracted by the plummers kindness and sympathy toward them in their need.

They probably were not knowledgable about Sabbath when he visited them.

Would they have also come if he had volunteered his services any other day of the weekly cycle ?

Guage Sabbath & it's keeping by the weight of the inspired evidence sent from God, that alone is proper enlightenment upon Earth's final test question. When God gives commands, He also gives instructions and directions and explanations. He even says "come now let US reason together."

Perhaps this evening after sufficent sleep I will try to get to what I view is the "heart" of Sabbath worship.

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Edward F Sutton

To Cathy Sears,
You have stated that we should not judge others. It is very true, however, whether you like it or not every one in one's daily life one passes judgement on others. Some are good, some are bad, and some should not be done but it is the fact of our human life. I could defend my statement by saying it was not my judgement on this plubmer, rather, I could have said his actions suggests to me so and so.
Suppose some one says "she/he looks kind" upon meeting first time. Do you consider judgeing others? Of course. Every one, as I said before, judges others daily. When the Bible said not to judge others, I think, it means different matter. Look at the Bible or people mention that he is a man of faith. Isn't this judging? So, is it all right to judge a person in favor of God's side, but not all right to judge other wise? We do daily business by judging others by the impression you get.
Once I went to store and I brought an item to purchase, I was embarassed becuase I left my wallet at home. The man told me that you look like an honest man, why don't you take it home and bring the money later. He judged me, didn't he. Is this bad, no. I do not think the Bible statement applies in such a case. In plubmer's case, you accused me of judging him. Sorry, I gave you such an impression. I sincerely hope you do not judge others good or bad. I hope you will never, never say to any one that John Doe is a good man, or he is very faithful to God, or he is a sincere adventist. If you say such a thing you are judging others!

Won

I am a bit perplexed. The focus of the positions taken in this discussion is not on the positive effects of doing good on Sabbath, but rather we have been focusing on what is meant by work, or that not gathering manna on Sabbath or not cooking, etc.is what is important. Christ specifically told us what the greatest commandments were, and yet we seem to have a difficult time "judging" our actions against those "greatest commandemnts". Would we be having this same type of discussion if instead of plumbing, the new church member spent Sabbath afternoon sleeping or on Adventist webpages? If the church is in the people business, why are we so concerned about how we help people and what activities of a helpful nature are appropriate? Can you imagine Christ saying, "I'd like to help you, but its Sabbath, and even though it would be good to help you, I shouldn't do it until Sabbath is over." When Christ saw a need, he, though compassion filled that need. His business (work) was healing and showing people what his father was like. He did not cease that work on Sabbath.

By the way, it is interesting to note that although God forbad the Children of Isreal to pick up manna on Sabbath, Christ said it was perfectly OK to pick grain on Sabbath. Should we focus on the action or on the lesson being taught? Was there a diffrent lesson to be learned in the wilderness than the lesson Jesus would have us to learn in the grain picking experience?

Won,
You made a statement about the motives of a person you have never met, about whom you know nothing except one thing - what he does as a missionary outreach on Sabbath. To state that you did not agree with the plumber that what he was doing was appropriate for Sabbath is one thing, but to judge his motivations for doing so is quite another. You have no basis for making such a judgment without a lot more information than this one thing. This is quite different than the types of judgment you mention in your latest post.

Judging other people's motives is not only forbidden by God, it is unprofitable. I find that when I do this, even with people I know very well, I am very often wrong. Many misunderstandings and unjustified hard feelings are the result. The only time I have found evaluating others' motives to be beneficial is when someone says or does something that is hurtful, insulting, or otherwise troubling to me. Then I find it helpful to think up every possible non-hurtful motive for this person's behavior, so that I can give them the benefit of the doubt and stop feeling resentful toward them.

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The Lord is the strength of my life and my portion forever.

[This message has been edited by Cathy Sears (edited February 09, 2001).]

I agree with you Wedntgp. The Sabbath belongs to the Lord, and it is His right and only His, to direct what we do or avoid doing on that day. It was not intended to be a day of useless idleness, but rather a day to do the Lord's work instead of our own work or our own selfish pleasures.

God calls each of us to a life of service according to the gifts and abilities He Himself has given us, and His will in this respect will not be the same for each of us. By His example, Jesus showed that acts of mercy and benevolence to meet the needs of the poor and suffering are acceptable. If God called the plumber to fix the plumbing of the poor in his town free of charge, then it is God's work through the hands of the plumber. And if the only time he is free to do God's work is on the Sabbath, that is between him and God, and no one has a right to judge. Those who spend Sabbath afternoon sleeping or gossiping have a lot more to answer to God for than this plumber!

I can think of several cases where Jesus healed people on the Sabbath who did not have life-threatening illnesses, who in fact had suffered their afflictions for many years. One day more would have made very little difference to them, but Jesus did not judge who He healed on the Sabbath by how urgent their need was. Healing was part of the work God had given Him to do, thus it was God's work, and it was right to do it on the Sabbath.

I have several SOP quotes on this topic that I have collected, but I do not have time to post them right now. I will get on that later.

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The Lord is the strength of my life and my portion forever.

[This message has been edited by Cathy Sears (edited February 09, 2001).]

Christ's meetings with the preachers, lawyers and theologians on Sabbath has convinced me that He was pointing out to them the pettiness of their priorities. They would save their own sons or oxen from danger or harm on Sabbath because both are so important to the status of their lives. The son for heritage sake and the oxen for economic security. But when it came to meeting human needs for the sake of human needs, that couldn't be done on Sabbath! They had mixed-up priorities. Jesus directed their attention beyond their petty rules to the fundamental principle of Sabbath observance. Not to save a life is in fact to take it. Not to do what enhances life is in fact to diminish life.

Jesus revealed a God who values the kind of worship from His people that will not be separated from the realities and needs of life. A God who made the Sabbath to experience the value of life, that enhances the quality and celebration of life.

Desire of Ages: "God could not for a moment stay His hand, or man would faint and die. [So]man also has a work to perform on this day [of the Sabbath.] The necessities of life must be attended to, the sick must be cared for, the wants of the needy must be supplied. He will not hold guiltless who neglects to relieve suffering on the Sabbath. God's holy rest day was made for man, and acts of mercy are in perfect harmony with its intent. God does not desire His creatures to suffer an hour's pain that may be relieved upon the Sabbath or any other day."

If we, as Seventh-day Adventists, were to take this concept seriously, it might mean doing things we have traditionally felt uncomfortable doing --especially on Sabbath.

Sabbath keeping has integral social and humanitarian aspects that we dare not forget.

[This message has been edited by Wedntgp (edited February 10, 2001).]

Cathy,
If you consider doing plumbing work on every Sabbath afternoon as missionary work it is your priliviledge. It doesn't seem right to me.
When I was in medical school we had to attend school on Saturdays or be kicked out. I was one of those who did not attend school on Sabbath. A professor called me in and asked me a serious question which I think every Sabbath keepers think very carefully. He asked me what is wrong to prepare yourself for your God's work(medical missionary) even on Saturdays, by attending school on Saturdays you will be preparing for God's work, he added. Doesn't it sound logical? If a physician may treat an emergency patient on Sabbath, why shouldn't a student attend medical school on Saturdays especially when there is not a SDA medical school or any medical school which do not have school on Saturdays. Some of SDA students attended to obtain MD degree, some did not. It all depended on how one understood keeping of the Sabbath. There are many around the world who lose their job or diploma because of the Sabbath keeping problem. If a plumber or any one can justify doing the routine work on Sabbath free of charge saying this is a missionary work, then is it less important to attend school on Sat. take the board exam on Sabbath?
I am not condoning or implying that taking a nap or be on internet on Sabbath is better or right than doing the plumbing.
Just because I am doing good things for my fellow human beings on Sabbath it does not neccessarily mean it is the right thing to do on Sabbath. I do not want to be negative by saying "don'ts" on Sabbath, but clearly there are list of "don'ts" in 10 commendments.
In my dental practice, often times I was asked if can see them on Sat. as they do not have time off from their work on week days.
If I think like some Sabbath keepers I will be doing missionary work if I treat those patients on Sabbath afternoon without charge! But I do not think that way. I offer them an evening hours instead of Saturday. It seems working out all right. The plubmer can offer the same work schedule without involving Sabbath afternoon. Well, this is my (narrow minded?) opinion about Sabbath keeping. I hope I am not a stumbling block to any one.

Won