Regarding what is lawful or not to do regarding helping others on Sabbath, I would suggest pulling up all Sabbath Texts & passages on the computer or Strongs Exhaustive Concordance. Determine which texts refer to the weekly Sabbath & use them.

Use a translation that in your language is as close to the original languages written as you can get, because you are looking for factual accuracy to answer this question.

Hopefully that will help you.

Ask these questions:

What does the text(s) or passages say?
What is their specific expressed intent?
What is their context?
Use the same questions on the texts & passages indirectly talking about the weekly Sabbath.

Plug key words from the texts (direct & indirect) on the Sabbath into the best SOP database you have or use the White Estate's website data base.

Happy hunting & share what you find.

I find that this narrow approach to Sabbath keeping causes us to miss out on the vast experiential meaning of Sabbath and how being a Sabbath keeper relates to all of life.

Ellen White wrote "We are not merely to observe the Sabbath as a legal matter. We are to understand its spiritual bearing upon all the transactions of life."

true Sabbath keeping is a lifestyle, when we imitate our heavenly father and the values important to Him. What are those values? People, justice, peace, equality, feeding-clothing-housing the less fortunate, environment, family and relationships. Active concern about these issues and applying His values to them is true Sabbath keeping.

May God bless your celebration of Sabbath.

Won

My worthiness to God is not based on what I DO, but it is based on my being one of His created beings. Can I DO anything that would make God stop loving me? If I cannot, then the issue is values not Doing. I appreciate what Wedntgp said, and think the point made was right on target. If my values are the same as God's values, then DOING is of no concern.

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What is popular is not always right.
What is right is not always popular.

Won

Won, you've said it well.

We can do all manner of good deeds and proclaim that we have done them in the name of God. But if those good deeds are done contrary to God's Word, His Law, then we have accomplished nothing for God. God has said that He won't be made to serve with our sins.

The Lord Jesus will not be made to serve with your sins. He claims the undivided throne of the heart, and would banish from the life every worldly, unsanctified action, whose influence would tell against the fact that you are his sons and daughters. We must remember that we are the purchase of Christ's blood. Body, soul, and spirit are his, and we are to be his agents, and not serve sin and the world, but yield to him, that we may be wholly sanctified. "Abstain from all appearance of evil. And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." {YI, September 14, 1893 par. 7}

The law of God proclaimed upon Mount Sinai, "Thou shalt not commit adultery," and yet you who transgressed that law in so marked a manner were teaching others the Bible. God did not accept your labors. You ask if the Lord gave me that letter to give to you. I say He did. The holy God of Israel will not serve with your sins. That message was given of God. If you have had, since that message was given, a new sense of what constitutes sin, if you have become truly converted, a child of God in place of being a transgressor of His law, there is no one who will be more pleased than myself. I could not present your sin before you in too strong language. {TSB 163.2}

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Even so come, Lord Jesus
Linda

[This message has been edited by Linda Sutton (edited February 04, 2001).]

quote:

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Originally posted by Won Bae:
I personally do not agree with the plumber who fixed the plumbing problems on Sabbath afternoons. I feel this is a good deed to gain the favor of God, not because of Him.
Won

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How do you know the plumber's reason for doing what he did? You are not God and you cannot see or know what is in his heart. You have no business judging this man, as God has clearly fobidden it. "Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls." Romans 14:4.

At times God has called me to do things that go against the conventional SDA way of thinking. His leading was very clear, and in no way actually violated any of God's own directions, either through the Bible or the SOP. You can be sure that I received criticism from those who think they have a right to judge others according to their own interpretation of traditional SDA teachings. But that is irrelevant. I answer to God, and I am not going to disobey him because some church members take it upon themselves to judge others.

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The Lord is the strength of my life and my portion forever.

I think we should look at some activities that took place on the Sabbath, from both the Old Testament and the New Testament of the Scriptures, and see how particular God was about these particular activities.

Let us look and discuss each one, one at a time.

Let us begin with God's instructions about the Sabbath day itself.

quote:

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Exodus 20:8 "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

---

The part in red doesn't forbid acts of mercy or work essential to the preservation of life and health that can't be performed on other days.

Christ said that it is always "lawful to do well on the Sabbath days." What He meant by that should be looked at later in a separate post, by the other things He said and did on the Sabbath day, by systematically looking at texts in both the Old and New Testaments relating to activities done on the Sabbath day.

Christ should be our Example in this area, therefore, let us look at Christ both as the Lawgiver and the Lawkeeper.

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

[This message has been edited by Daryl Fawcett (edited February 07, 2001).]

22 And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses.
23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.
24 And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein.
25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field.
26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.
27 And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.
28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?
29 See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.
30 So the people rested on the seventh day.

What is the definition of worship ?

What is the definition of Sabbath ?

What does inspiration ALONE say ?

The people the plumer helped were attracted by the plummers kindness and sympathy toward them in their need.

They probably were not knowledgable about Sabbath when he visited them.

Would they have also come if he had volunteered his services any other day of the weekly cycle ?

Guage Sabbath & it's keeping by the weight of the inspired evidence sent from God, that alone is proper enlightenment upon Earth's final test question. When God gives commands, He also gives instructions and directions and explanations. He even says "come now let US reason together."

Perhaps this evening after sufficent sleep I will try to get to what I view is the "heart" of Sabbath worship.

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Edward F Sutton

Won

By the way, it is interesting to note that although God forbad the Children of Isreal to pick up manna on Sabbath, Christ said it was perfectly OK to pick grain on Sabbath. Should we focus on the action or on the lesson being taught? Was there a diffrent lesson to be learned in the wilderness than the lesson Jesus would have us to learn in the grain picking experience?

Judging other people's motives is not only forbidden by God, it is unprofitable. I find that when I do this, even with people I know very well, I am very often wrong. Many misunderstandings and unjustified hard feelings are the result. The only time I have found evaluating others' motives to be beneficial is when someone says or does something that is hurtful, insulting, or otherwise troubling to me. Then I find it helpful to think up every possible non-hurtful motive for this person's behavior, so that I can give them the benefit of the doubt and stop feeling resentful toward them.

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The Lord is the strength of my life and my portion forever.

[This message has been edited by Cathy Sears (edited February 09, 2001).]

God calls each of us to a life of service according to the gifts and abilities He Himself has given us, and His will in this respect will not be the same for each of us. By His example, Jesus showed that acts of mercy and benevolence to meet the needs of the poor and suffering are acceptable. If God called the plumber to fix the plumbing of the poor in his town free of charge, then it is God's work through the hands of the plumber. And if the only time he is free to do God's work is on the Sabbath, that is between him and God, and no one has a right to judge. Those who spend Sabbath afternoon sleeping or gossiping have a lot more to answer to God for than this plumber!

I can think of several cases where Jesus healed people on the Sabbath who did not have life-threatening illnesses, who in fact had suffered their afflictions for many years. One day more would have made very little difference to them, but Jesus did not judge who He healed on the Sabbath by how urgent their need was. Healing was part of the work God had given Him to do, thus it was God's work, and it was right to do it on the Sabbath.

I have several SOP quotes on this topic that I have collected, but I do not have time to post them right now. I will get on that later.

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The Lord is the strength of my life and my portion forever.

[This message has been edited by Cathy Sears (edited February 09, 2001).]

Jesus revealed a God who values the kind of worship from His people that will not be separated from the realities and needs of life. A God who made the Sabbath to experience the value of life, that enhances the quality and celebration of life.

Desire of Ages: "God could not for a moment stay His hand, or man would faint and die. [So]man also has a work to perform on this day [of the Sabbath.] The necessities of life must be attended to, the sick must be cared for, the wants of the needy must be supplied. He will not hold guiltless who neglects to relieve suffering on the Sabbath. God's holy rest day was made for man, and acts of mercy are in perfect harmony with its intent. God does not desire His creatures to suffer an hour's pain that may be relieved upon the Sabbath or any other day."

If we, as Seventh-day Adventists, were to take this concept seriously, it might mean doing things we have traditionally felt uncomfortable doing --especially on Sabbath.

Sabbath keeping has integral social and humanitarian aspects that we dare not forget.

[This message has been edited by Wedntgp (edited February 10, 2001).]

Won

Here is information that the location of the SOP references to, may not be readily available to all so I will offer it freely to who ever wishes it. Jesus knew we would be confused and would need this information so He made sure it was added to His latter times training program for the Remnant People through His Testimonies to them, the SOP.

10 MR p- 89-95 (MR#800 Sabbath Keeping)
CH(Counsels on Health)p-235-236
CH p-489-491 (7 T p-121-123)
EV(Evangelism) p- 245

Manna verses eating wheat from grain field.

Manna = National Test to keep or reject Sabbath
(see - Exodus 16:4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.
Exodus 20:20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.)

God doubled the miracle of manna, on the preparation day so no one had to gather manna because of hunger, only stubbornness.

Sabbath eating of wheat = efforts to get food when they could not buy or obtain any food for themselves. They were submissive to God but were still in need of food. God worked no miracle, Jesus was there in person and the laws of God authorized eating from someone else's field to keep from personally starving .

GC(1888& 1911) The Great Controversy p- 52-53
LDE (Last Day Events) p-77-78
MAR (Maranatha) p- 161-178
MM (Medical Ministry) p-49-50; 214-216
PK (Prophets and Kings) p-179-189

[This message has been edited by Edward F Sutton (edited February 09, 2001).]

Yet bringing them into harmony with Inspiration is everythime a step closer to the "One Lord, one faith, one baptism,"
of Ephesians 4:5 and all who do this get a side benefit.

"Those who are true to their calling as messengers for God will not seek honor for themselves. Love for self will be swallowed up in love for Christ. No rivalry will mar the precious cause of the gospel. They will recognize that it is their work to proclaim, as did John the Baptist, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. They will lift up Jesus, and with Him humanity will be lifted up. "Thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones." Isa. 57:15. {DA 179.5}

The soul of the prophet, emptied of self, was filled with the light of the divine. As he witnessed to the Saviour's glory, his words were almost a counterpart of those that Christ Himself had spoken in His interview with Nicodemus. John said, "He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: He that cometh from heaven is above all. . . . For He whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto Him." Christ could say, "I seek not Mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent Me." John 5:30. To Him it is declared, "Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even Thy God, hath anointed Thee with the oil of gladness above Thy fellows." Heb. 1:9. The Father "giveth not the Spirit by measure unto Him." {DA 180.1}

So with the followers of Christ. We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We cannot discern the character of God, or accept Christ by faith, unless we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. To all who do this the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, and in Him ye are made full." Col. 2:9, 10, R. V. {DA 181.1}

Perhaps our motives and opinions are more important than we throught. Perhaps we ought pray for each other earnestly they we each receive strength to surrender the power of personal opinions to Jesus, so that when we discover He believes differently than we do, we will be strengthened to surrender even our beliefs & opinons & motives to Him through agreement with Inspirations statements.

This being done cheerfully as a personal private thing without publicly disuting and defending cherished opinions that disagree with revealed truth.

This would prevent us from using Inspiration as a threshing blade or a club, when it needs to be both tourch & fireplace fire; enlightening and warming all in the house.

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Edward F Sutton

[This message has been edited by Edward F Sutton (edited February 09, 2001).]

The quote from Desire of Ages is demanding. Wherever and however I can make the quality of life better for one of God's children, I am compelled to do so. Be it Sabbath or Wednesday.

We as Christians, as Seventh-day Adventist Christians, cannot neglect such a gracious gift from God as is the Sabbath. We cannot afford to let this gift sit on the shelf of our spiritual, theological, and religious libraries collecting dust. The renewal and revitalization of our church is at stake. How we choose to respond will affect not only our lives but the health and welfare of future generations. God help us choose today to enter more fully into His glorious and gracious Sabbath rest.

Have a heavenly Sabbath!

How does a person rebuild their individual concept of worship and what God wants and expects ? Here are at least three possible formats used and a general direction of thought & action these create.

1. Personal philosophy only - a person decides upon the basis of their personal feelings and knowledge alone.

Result - They come up with whatever pleases them, which can be as varied as there are people on the globe. Enormous numbers of varieties, and having left the sovereignty and dependance of God out of the picture - none of these scenarios are built to be acceptable to God's terms of the judgement. So all these roads to Heaven fail, because their nature & content are based upon no need of a Saviour.

2. A religious philosophy that may or may not include the Bible as the basis for the faith, and adds things also that are on their terms.

Result - They come up with whatever pleases them, which can be as varied as there are people on the globe. Enormous numbers of varieties, and having included the sovereignty and dependance of God as part of the picture and dependance on self and doing or not doing whatever they want and retaining self built motives - The question becomes how many of these scenarios are built to be acceptable to God's terms of the judgement. So how many of these roads to Heaven fail, because their nature & content are based upon need of a Saviour plus the doing and motives as it pleases them. Human wishes and actions being given the ruling place in the life instead of God, even though the demeanor is religious.

3. (According to their opportunities given them),obeying God's leading implicitly and/or if they have availability of a Bible accept only a religious philosophy that uses the Bible as the basis for the faith, and adds nothing that is not on the Bible's terms. And removes all conflicting prior self built or non Biblical philosophies .

Result - They trust God implicitly and His Words & Works & Motives & Plans, and their works & plans & motives not at all. They search out from God's revealed Words what His says His works and plans and motives are and then discard everything that conflicts with them and add only those revealed things God's Words show. God's concerns have become their concerns and their loyalties are no longer divided between what God reveals and selfishness in what ever form. They depend upon the Saviour which is given the throne of absolute and total rulership of their life and motives and actions and purposes.

The third group is rare, and not so easy to deal with because since they are no longer "double minded" the ones who are double minded find that mutual points of reference and value systems are widely differing . This third group that voluntarily gives themselves to God through utter dependance upon the Saviour and His merits and live out obedience on the basis that their motives, and faith that acts out it's convictions are following what God has said alone. They by their lives and actions and efforts are offensive to the first two groups. This is where the Gospel becomes a sword. This group has become so changed in their thinking that they do not debate about God's words when faced with a personal conflict because of them. They go to their Saviour and wrestle until self is conquered through Him & the reasons for debate from them are gone. They treat God's words in a different manner than the first two groups. They do not add (their own desired things), they do not take away (ignore or disobey because it's more present to do so); they come & see & strive to understand . They repent & turn to God's motives & purposes & imitate His actions .

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Edward F Sutton

When my kids did not do what I told them to do, or did what what I told them not to do; I didn't have to wonder about their motives the message was loud and clear.

God must see people completely covered with and full of the merits and mediation and seal of Jesus and Himself and the Holy Ghost. That alone will fulfil their entrance into and fitness for being part of the kingdom of Heaven.

Can you be completely covered with and full of the merits and mediation and seal of Jesus and Himself and the Holy Ghost, if either your works or motives were things Jesus could not join you in as a partner in fulfilling all the revealed Words of God delivered to you ?

Would you be completely covered with and full of the merits and mediation and seal of Jesus and Himself and the Holy Ghost, if all your works and motives were things Jesus could did join you in as a partner in fulfilling all the revealed Words of God delivered to you ?

When useing only God's inspired words to answer those questions, you will have the information that answers what do you do and not do on Sabbath and why and for what motives.

Let the study and discussion of what is found in inspiration, develop and blossom and ripen and harvest.

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Edward F Sutton

May I add a few words to your statements?
It takes one's sacrifice to follow Christ.
I feel the Sabbath hours belong to God, not ours, we have 6 days what we have to do for our own, the 7th day belongs to God, therefore, we must do God's work. This is the reason why I rest from my own routine work. If I want to help the poor I would set the time aside of my own, not the God's time, this is how I feel about the Sabbath, and this was the reason why I voluntarily quit medical school.

Won

Thank you for your input. It is an interesting concept to me to say that if you wanted to help the poor, you would take it out of your time instead of God's time. How does that fit in with the statement of God that if you have done it unto the least of these you have done it unto me? I read that to mean that if I spend my Sabbath helping the poor, I am spending time with God.

I totally agree with your position that to render dental attention to patients because they do not want to take time off of work during the week so want you to fix their teeth on Sabbath. However, I see a great deal of difference between that and taking a bag of dental tools to the innercity to eliminate dental pain and decay for those who would not otherwise see a tooth professional. If the Spirit of Prophecy says, which it does, that God does not want suffering to last for anyone longer than we can relieve it, what is our responsibility to the homeless? Are we turning our back on God by telling them in effect: "If it wasn't Sabbath, I would help you"? Jesus didn't. Why should we?

The dental tools are kept in reserve for the sudden needs that demand attention now, like a broken tooth or a gashed lip. The crowns & cleaning can wait.

The broken hip goes to ER & maybe surgery, the face lift waits.

The sad & lonely are talked to & comforted now, on Sabbath & after Sabbath & before Sabbath.

Isaiah ch 58 is one of the guidelines for what to do, so are Nehemiah & Exodus & Leviticus and everywhere the Bible talks about Sabbath & it's purposes and ministering to others .

Consider it Heaven's politics, Earth has Satan's politics that are based on getting all you can & glorifying self all you can and getting as rich as you can. Those politics are multi-layered and multi tasking humanly very complex operations done according to human laws.

Heaven's politics are different. Obtaining from God to give to others, comforting, ministering to necesities and needs, teaching, helping, instilling hopes far beyond peoples present horizons, and pushing evil back and restraining it when ever possible. The rule of force and opression to convert, all laid aside and all the fallen human concepts. Truth through kindness reaching the heart.

Both forms of politics operate according to law. Heaven's politics operate according to law .... the same law He wrote with His finger. But is that law understood ?

Jesus 3 1/2 years of public ministry were not secular work. His healing people was not secular work. Sabbath has never been in Scripture combined with secular work.

So the real question is, what are non secular types of ministry that ought to be done on Sabbath ? Please include your list of inspired references and reasons

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Edward F Sutton

I am firmly convinced that my entire life – everything I have and am – belongs to God. Not just one tenth of my material increase and one seventh of my time, but 100% of my time, talents, abilities, and material resources. It is not up to me to decide for myself how I will serve God. If I am to be living a life of submission to God, I must follow His leading in all things, including in the choice of outreach to others. I would never take it upon myself to decide how to reach out to those around me without very much prayer. God knows me very well, and only He knows where, when, and how I can most effectively reach someone else. Whatever I might do under the direction of my own ideas and in my own strength is doomed to failure. And God has almost never directed me to do what I would have chosen if it were left up to me. More than once, He has led me in a way that defied traditional SDA thought.

Several years ago, God led us to invite a young man to live in our home. This young man had committed his life to God and was seeking the way to Him. I was quite sure that I should do everything possible to influence him to become and Adventist. But as I was thinking of this matter, during the time R was moving his things into our house, God very plainly said to me, “Can you love R even if I lead him into another church?”

This was quite a shock to me. How many SDA’s would say, “that couldn’t be God speaking!”? But I knew very well that it was, for He had been speaking to me in this same manner for many years. Now, I certainly didn’t think God was going to lead him to some other church, but I knew that God was telling me that it was not my place to convict this young man of anything – that was God’s job. All I was to do was to encourage him to seek God for himself, and answer whatever questions he should ask me. And if I couldn’t handle whatever way God might choose to lead in his life, whether it agreed with my own ideas of the way things should be or not, I was to stay out of his life and leave him alone. Anything else would be disobedience. So, after considering this message, I said, “yes Father, I can love him even if you lead him to another church."

A day or so later, as I was thinking to myself how nice it was going to be to have this polite, pleasant young man there to talk to, and to do the little repair jobs around the house that my husband didn’t have time to do, which was what we asked of him instead of rent, God spoke to me again. “What if R should turn his back on Me and start drinking and bringing home a different girl every night? Are you willing to take that risk?” Again I was shocked. I certainly did not think that was going to happen. Yet I knew that R had the freedom to choose whether to serve God or not, and there were no guarantees that he would remain committed to God. So, after thinking of the risk Jesus took for me, I said, “Yes Father, even if he should steal everything we have, murder us in our sleep, and burn the house down around us, I am willing to take that risk.”

Before you decide to criticize my making the choice even to risk my entire family, realize that God’s leading in bringing R to our house was unmistakable, right from the start. And knowing that all of this was God’s will, and completely under His control, there was really no other choice I could make, except to turn away from God’s will for me and my family. Of course I did not believe that any of those things would happen, for my experience with God through the years has left me completely at peace that when He leads, He also protects from any real harm. My family would not be taken out of His hands, even if they should die. But I knew that I was being told that I must put aside my own ideas of how things were going to be and accept whatever happened as being part of God’s plan.

I needed both of those messages, and all of the others God gave me during that week. I prayed constantly during the time R lived in our house, both for God’s Spirit to work on his heart, and for Him to lead me, and put His words into my mouth (and restrain my own!). And believe me, it was no picnic having him there. Yes, I did enjoy our long talks that lasted until 1 or 2 AM nearly every night, especially since sharing with R how God had led in my life and shown His love to me encouraged me as much as it did him, as was seeing R’s growing faith and commitment. But Satan was furious at losing one whom he had had so tightly in his hands, and he attacked viciously – R, my whole family, and especially me, as I was the one God was using to reach R. I am convinced that if I had proceeded according to my own ideas and in my own strength, my family would have been destroyed. Instead, God turned Satan’s attacks into ultimate good, though that didn’t necessarily happen right away. By the time R moved out of our house, my own health was completely destroyed, in large part due to the stress of that spiritual battle.

About 8 months after R moved into our house, he was baptized. A couple of years later, I told him about the things God had said to me during the week he was moving into our house. He told me that if I had preached at him or pressured him even the least little bit, he would have run the other way.

If we will put ourselves into God’s hands and surrender our wills to Him, then He will lead us into whatever outreach He wants us to do, and we will be left without any doubts as to whether it is right to do on the Sabbath, or any other time. No, He will never lead us contrary to His will as revealed in His word, but it might be quite a surprise to most SDA’s to learn how God really means those truths to operate in our lives. And anyone who will put himself into God’s hands and ask Him to show him his own duty is going to be much too busy to have any time to criticize anyone else’s methods!

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The Lord is the strength of my life and my portion forever.

Perhaps you answered you own question in a prior post. Could the difference between secular and ministry be motive?

I'm not sure about the "emergency" test set forth in your post. What about Jesus and the non-emergency healing in my original post?

[This message has been edited by Wedntgp (edited February 12, 2001).]

Won

Wendy
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Maranatha!!!

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Chose you this day whom you will serve,
as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Joshua 24:15

What is popular is not always right.
What is right is not always popular.

In my study of Jesus and the Spirit of Prophecy, I have found that they have very practical answers to such questions.

In the story of the Good Samaritan, Jesus showed that it was more important to be an "uplift" to humanity than to obey the law (Levites and Priests could not touch dead people). It seems that the Priests had put a hedge around the "dead" by meaning they couldn't go and help one who might be dead. They also placed a hedge around the Sabbath so that they couldn't do anything that might be useless work (like wearing false teeth--that's carrying something!)

In the middle ages some Protestants actually made it a sin to stare idly out of the window on the "Lord's Day."

These are extremes. What I do is first figure out if what I'm doing positively or negatively affects my relationship with Christ. The second thing I do is read Romans 14. I'm serving God--not the opinions of others. I also have to remember that fellow Christians are serving God--not me.

Another suggestion is to read Ellen White's practical ideas on how to spend the Sabbath hours. Much can be found in "The Adventist Home." Once a man from the Northwestern US came to her all concerned over what believers do about sunset times in Northern Finland and Norway (where the sun doesn't set for weeks). She said: "Let the people in Norway keep the Sabbath over there the way they do it, but [i]you[i/] keep it the way [i]you[i/] know you ought to in Oregon...

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Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday.

Don't let yesterday's mistakes trouble you, nor tomorrow's fears spoil your day.

Pastor Andrew

You make a good point. Going to extremes in this question of "appropriate sabbath activities," can be a real millstone. I once had a conversation with someone who was seriously asking if we should eat an egg that a chicken laid on the Sabbath?

My question to him was: "How could the Sabbath possibly be any holier, because you did, or did not, eat such an egg? Isn't the Sabbath already "holy" just the way God made it?"

David T Battler

[This message has been edited by KingDavid (edited February 17, 2001).]

If I were a plumber and somebody's home was in immediate need of a plumber on the Sabbath, in a situation that couldn't wait for another day on account of water gushing out of a broken faucet or whatever, [Remember, I am not a plumber. ], then I would, if asked, meet the immediate need by stopping the water from gushing out and flooding the kitchen. I also wouldn't charge for the service. I wouldn't, however, do any plumbing service that could be done on a different day.

That is my take on it.

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

quote:

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Originally posted by Won Bae:
Wedntgp,
If I am so busy by intention or otherwise during the week, and I can not or won't spend some time to do this missionary endeaver except on the Sabbath, I feel this is wrong. I am being too selfish making money and have no time for my fellow country men who are too poor to take care themselves. The Sabbath hour should be set aside to do His work. The poor are always with us, there are ample opportunities to help them on any day. To make a routine plan to render dental care or plumbing on the Sabbath afternoons makes me feel that I am too selfish or too busy doing my own thing during the week days, and only time I have for God is on Sabbath afternoon.
Won

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You have made a very good point, Won Bae. Most people in our society these days are far too busy, not just making money, but with social engagements, amusements, and their own personal projects. I know of one family in our church who is always on the go in the evenings, driving their 2 children to after-school or summer activities – band, track, softball, debate, Pathfinders, and I don’t know what all. To me this is ridiculous. Yet in the past I have also been guilty of allowing myself to be overwhelmed with unnecessary work and responsibilities that I had voluntarily taken on, only of a different kind. I spent too much time cooking and baking more time-consuming foods than my family really needed to have, got carried away with my own personal projects, and was doing too much church work that was totally unsuited to my talents and personality, simply because "somebody had to do it," and I felt that it was selfish to say "no," no matter how stressful and downright hateful it was to me. As a result, it was impossible for me to effectively carry out the work God wanted me to do, both for my own family and for my neighbors. In all of this, I was robbing God of my time that really belonged to Him.

I had to learn to simplify my life, and let God set my priorities. The things that previously occupied my time were all good things, and many were necessary things. But those good things were not all God’s things, and even the necessary things sometimes have to be put aside while more important things are given a higher priority. The closet that needs cleaning will not likely take any more time to clean if it is put off for a month or even a year than it will now. And how long have I put up with it being a mess, even though it bothers me to have it that way? I can put up with it a little longer, if something else is more important. And if there simply isn’t anyone at church with the correct skills for a certain task who is willing to do it, it likely isn’t a matter of life and death, or even of anyone’s salvation, for it to remain undone. What is far more important than any of these things is doing what God wants me, personally, to do.

I believe that most Adventists in North America need to learn to submit their priorities and their plans to God. Even if we are using our time doing "good works," if those good works are not the work that God really wants each of us to do, we are robbing Him of our service. That goes for every day of the week, not just the Sabbath.

And that goes for the plumber too. While I do object to anyone judging the plumber without more information about his specific situation, I would never encourage anyone to carry out a similar activity without a very clear call from God. Even though it is a good work that he is doing, and it seems to be bearing fruit in souls brought to the truth, if it is not God’s choice for him, then it is wrong, and will ultimately bring more harm than good. Let’s never forget that bringing large numbers of unconverted souls into the church is not really beneficial to the church, or to those new members. Only a genuine conversion can save anyone or edify others. We don’t know the whole story, so I am not trying to judge the plumber’s situation, only making the point that large numbers added to the church are not necessarily an indication of God’s leading or His blessing.

I believe it is very important for each of us to submit our plans and our wills to God, rather than choosing our own work or projects, whether those plans involve the Sabbath or not. Whatever work God Himself gives us to do for others is indeed God’s work, and is appropriate to do whenever He directs us to. But whatever we leave God out of is our own work, even if it is good, and He cannot bless it, no matter what day we do it.

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The Lord is the strength of my life and my portion forever.

Something that might be of interest would be for each of us to record for a month the activities engaged in on Sabbath, and determine how much of the day is spent in helping others. It would seem appropriate to exclude Church and SS time. And of course a fair share of the day is spent sleeping (even if you don't take a Sabbath afternoon nap). I would not ask that anyone share his or her discovery of the activities engaged in, but it might be interesting if you would. Maybe we will find we should be "working" for others!

In the midst of talking about should-s and should-nots lets refer to some delegated instructions with the reasons given.

parts 1-6 follow.

(1.)The observance of the Sabbath is the sign between God and His people. Let us not be ashamed to bear the sign that distinguishes us from the world. As I considered this matter in the night season recently, One of authority counseled us to study the instruction given the Israelites in regard to the Sabbath. "Verily My Sabbaths ye shall keep," the Lord declared to them; "for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you. Ye shall keep the Sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you. . . . Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever." Exodus 31:13-17. {CH 235.1}

The Sabbath is ever the sign that distinguishes the obedient from the disobedient. With masterly power Satan has worked to make null and void the fourth commandment, that the sign of God may be lost sight of. The Christian world have trodden underfoot the Sabbath of the Lord and observe a sabbath instituted by the enemy. But God has a people who are loyal to Him. His work is to be carried forward in right lines. The people who bear His sign are to establish churches and institutions as memorials to Him. These memorials, however humble in appearance, will constantly bear witness against the false sabbath instituted by Satan, and in favor of the Sabbath instituted by the Lord in Eden, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy. {CH 235.2}

A spirit of irreverence and carelessness in the observance of the Sabbath is liable to come into our sanitariums. Upon the men of responsibility in the medical missionary work rests the duty of giving instruction to physicians, nurses, and helpers in regard to the sanctity of God's holy day. Especially should every physician endeavor to set a right example. The nature of his duties naturally leads him to feel justified in doing on the Sabbath many things that he should refrain from doing. So far as possible, he should so plan his work that he can lay aside his ordinary duties. {CH 236.1}

The Suffering Never to Be Neglected

Often physicians and nurses are called upon during the Sabbath to minister to the sick, and sometimes it is impossible for them to take time for rest and for attending devotional services. The needs of suffering humanity are never to be neglected. The Saviour by His example has shown us that it is right to relieve suffering on the Sabbath. But unnecessary work, such as ordinary treatments and operations that can be postponed, should be deferred. Let the patients understand that physicians and helpers should have one day for rest. Let them understand that the workers fear God and desire to keep holy the day that He has set apart for His followers to observe as a sign between Him and them. {CH 236.2}

The educators and those being educated in our medical institutions should remember that to keep the Sabbath aright means much to them and to the patrons. In keeping the Sabbath, which God declares shall be kept holy, they give the sign of their order, showing plainly that they are on the Lord's side.
{CH 236.3}

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Edward F Sutton

[This message has been edited by Gerry Buck (edited February 24, 2001).]

Won

Wedntgp has also gotten me to think about how I spend the Sabbath. Thank you. I think we are all better off having participated in this discussion.

I told Cathy that I would not "mess" in this serious topic, but I just couldn't help myself.

I am glad that you have decided to re-examine your beliefs regarding proper Sabbath-keeping. We all need to re-examine our positions from time to time, and inspiring such re-examination should be the real purpose of forums such as this one.

Please be very sure that you examine this issue with much prayer, and a determination to understand what God Himself has to say about it, through the Bible and the inspired counsels given through Sister White. God has promised wisdom to those who seek it with an honest heart.

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The Lord is the strength of my life and my portion forever.

I don't know why your post didn't show up for me until after I posted my reply to Won Bae, nearly an hour after yours, but I'm glad to see that you decided to participate in this thread. I have always enjoyed discussing serious issues with you, even though we don't always agree.

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The Lord is the strength of my life and my portion forever.

You said through the Bible that if any of us lack wisdom to ask You and You would generously impart it into us and not jump on us for not knowing or being confused.

You didn't explain to Mary why she should pour the perfume on Jesus, but you moved her to do it.

Please give us the respect and reverence for You and the hearing of Your voice to refrain when we ought and put in us the compassion to do when we ought, in full accordance with the letter and spirit of Your Sabbath.

Please lead us to show our neighbours that we activly care ,as well as, respect and reverence You and please mentor us to know how You want us to do that. Too often we don't understand what we read we look only with our eyes and our heart's don't reach the words. Please teach us to be Sabbath keepers like Jesus does, and for His reasons.

Thank You Father, Jesus, Holy Spirit for listening to my prayer, I don't guess too many prayers get posted in discussion threads outside of prayer forums. We go back and forth about how to keep Your law as if we knew. You have tried to help by revealing lots of instructions, please open our hearts cause they keep getting in the way of the minds You gave us. Please help us hear Your side of the story.

Thank You for your help
Love Ed

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Edward F Sutton

-Dennis Borg

As far as helping our fellow man (in non-emergency situations that can wait), I think that is a judgement call on the part of the individual. There are too many variables to try and have a one-rule-fits-all.

-Dennis Borg

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The Lord is the strength of my life and my portion forever.

But then, if you engage in an activity you believe to be sin, it is sin. Because you are doing something that you believe is separating you from God. Separation from God is what sin is.

I will mow lawns, scoop walks, and engage in activities that show my neighbor what Christian love is all about. Not all neighbors want a personal visit, but a helpful hand in times of need shows that we care for them enough to engage in activities not generally pleasant for them. Talk is cheap, action is where its at.

And He will turn to those on His left hand and they will say "we did those things Lord." "I know," is His response, "but you did them on Sabbath!"

A little ridiculous, huh?

Sabbath is the day we spend with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And the verses that I have twisted to meet the philosophy I have read in this chat, say that when we help others we are spending time with Christ. What better way to spend Sabbath than helping others, whether or not it is an activity we would do for ourselves on Sabbath. If we are doing it for "My brothern" we are spending time with Jesus.

It appears that what is important is not what we are doing, but who are we doing it for, and if we are doing it for His brothern, we are spending time with Him, what a blessing that will bring to the Sabbath.

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And the second is like it . . .

So, as I understand what you are saying, it would be OK for the dentist to fix teeth on Sabbath, which is his occupation, and what he does best, because that has to do with health, but it is not ok for the plumber to eliminate human discomfort because it does not have to do with healing, even though that is what he does best and the manner in which he feels comfortable serving his fellow man?
	quote: Wedntgp

Nope, you haven't understood what I am saying.

You haven't convinced me yet.
	quote: Wedntgp

Respectfully, I am not here to convince you of anything; that is not my job. I am curious, though; is that why you posted your question? For us to convince you of something?

Your comments haven't swayed me to believe that any and all activities under the sun are all equally effective means (or even good means) of worship and witnessing.

I would rather trust God's wisdom, than to lean on my own understandings.

-Dennis Borg

With great pleassure and relish, I do absolutely nothing on the Sabbath.
	quote: me again

If my fellow man needs help on the Lord's day, I will be the first to help. I also read the Bible, enjoy quiet time and occasionally socialize with others. For six days a week, I run non-stop. I work 40+ hours a week AND I'm a full time college student. Sometimes I suffer from exhaustion and when the Friday evening sunset arrives, I feel like collapsing. In reference to my above quote, DenBorg, in your opinion, should I repent?

quote: me again

-Dennis Borg

[This message has been edited by DenBorg (edited April 22, 2001).]

Picture the experience Christ paints for us in the 25th Chapter of Matthew. Christ is coming in His glory. He is separating people one from another. He is saying to those on His right hand, "Come into my kingdom, for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, and you took me in: I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me. Those on His right hand say "when did we do those things." And He will answer, "Insomuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brothern, you did it to Me, as long as you did not do it on Sabbath. And He will turn to those on His left hand and they will say "we did those things Lord." "I know," is His response, "but you did them on Sabbath!" A little ridiculous, huh?

quote: DrD

-Dennis Borg

quote:

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If my fellow man needs help on the Lord's day, I will be the first to help. I also read the Bible, enjoy quiet time and occasionally socialize with others.

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That does not sound like doing absolutely nothing to me!

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The Lord is the strength of my life and my portion forever.

As has been stated, if we do it for others, we do it for Christ. Sabbath is for spending time with Christ. If my activity is for Christ, I am spending time with Him.

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

I would agree that we spend time and worship Him differently on Sabbath than on other days of the week. We put aside OUR OWN needs and focus on the needs of our and His brothern.

Maybe you could help me a bit to understand the lesson you have learned from the experience and teaching Christ presented. And how the questions raised on this thread in limiting the "helping" activities on Sabbath are different from the questions raised by the theologians of Christ's day.

This has been an interesting discussion.

I must confess, however, in answer to a question posed, it is a focus of mine to de-emphasise rules and regulations and focus the minds of Christians on the needs of Christ's brothern. It is troubling to me that it is OK to sit around on Sabbath, accomplishing little, and not serving others, but it is not OK to show concern and follow up on that concern for others with activity that I would not do for myself on Sabbath. I agree that many of the activities that I would do for others on Sabbath, I would NOT do for myself on Sabbath. Perhaps therein lies the difference in how Sabbath is observed, and how our Lord is glorified on that day.

It seems to me that one of the things that Jesus was trying to teach us about the Sabbath was how we are to worship God. For me a very good place to look for the answer to that is in the familiar passage from Isaiah 58.

I find it interesting that Isaiah 58:13 is at the end of a discourse on fasting in the context of Israel seeking God and their efforts to worship Him. Notice the introduction in verses 1-2. Isaiah is instructed to point out the sins of the people and goes on to describe their diligent efforts in seeking God. They seem to be doing the worshipful things of seeking after God and fasting with all humility. But their efforts to impress God with their piety are not the worship and fasting that God desires. Notice in verses 6-12 which God introduces with the question, "Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen..." freeing the oppressed and burdened, righting injustice, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, providing shelter for the homeless. Notice God's response to this form of worship. The passage then concludes with a distinctly parallel message about the Sabbath.

As we have all struggled over the "seeking your own pleasure" phrase it is useful to pay particular attention to how that phrase is used in the earlier discourse on fasting in verses 3-4. In that context the Lord describes that "doing as you please" means exploiting ones workers, quarrelling and fighting, etc. Also notice the contrasting acceptable "fasting" and worship that is then described. Now use that to understand what seems in context almost an aside reference to Sabbath keeping. "Doing as you please" has far less to do with doing what we enjoy, having fun and seeking pleasurable activities on the Sabbath, but is following our sinful desires to the detriment of our fellow humans or ignoring their needs caused by the conditions of this sinful world. To swim, throw frisbee or whatever on the Sabbath seems to miss the point entirely.

I am impressed that Jesus kept the Sabbath by reaching out to people by addressing their needs in a real and practical sense. After all, this was His message to the children of Israel through the prophet Isaiah. Our worship and praise to God which is most pleasing to Him is ministering to the needs of our fellow humans. It seems that faithfully attending Church, singing, praying and all the forms of modern "fasting" we practice on Sabbath to honor and worship God today really have little to do with true Sabbath keeping that is pleasing to God. (Indeed, they may rather help us ignore and avoid doing real good by taking up our Sabbath hours and keeping us away from those who have real needs.) Rather we ought to hit the streets and help those in need and leave the world a better place because the followers of Christ reached out and touched the unclean and brought healing and help to our neighbors. (See Luke 10:29-37) True worship that is acceptable to God is all about how we relate to our fellow humans. (If you are going swimming on the Sabbath, how about taking a bunch of inner city kids with you and go to the beach?) My vote is for the good plummer who understood Jesus' command to love God by loving people and that showing God's love to people by doing good to them on the Sabbath is excellent Sabbath worship!

I want you all to know that this study of Isaiah 58 a few months ago helped me to come to a decision about something I had been considering for some time. My good friend and cycling buddy had been trying to encourage me to do the AIDS Ride with him this summer on June 21-24. He is organizing an Adventist group of riders from Sligo Church a group which I have now joined. It is a fund raising ride and the leg we will participate in will be 330 miles from Raleigh, NC to Washington, DC. The money raised by the riders will go to help AIDS victims in a variety of ways. Each rider must get sponsors to raise a minimum of $2400. You notice that the ride goes from Thursday through Sunday. That Sabbath I will keep that Sabbath holy by getting on my bicycle and riding 100 miles or so to help raise some money to help in some way those suffering with AIDS. I will call that Sabbath a delight!

Tom

PS Anyone intersted in sponsoring me should feel free to send me an e-mail. I will be delighted to send you a pledge form and include you in my Sabbath do-gooders club!

Here is one that comes to my mind with disasterous consequences:

quote:

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Numbers 15:32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

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The Bible doesn't tell us why he was gathering sticks on the Sabbath, however, we do see the results of this particular one. The LORD said that the man shall be surely put to death.

Obviously, this man's activity on the Sabbath wasn't approved by the LORD. Are you saying, however, that it wasn't necessarily the activity but the reason for the activity that resulted in this man's death by stoning?

__________________________
Psalms 119:165 "Great peace
have they which love thy law:
and nothing shall offend them."

Daryl

Were future Kings above the law? If not, why did Christ "excuse" David's violation of the law?

Numbers 15:
22 ¶ And if ye have erred, and not observed all these commandments, which the LORD hath spoken unto Moses,
23 Even all that the LORD hath commanded you by the hand of Moses, from the day that the LORD commanded Moses, and henceforward among your generations;
24 Then it shall be, if ought be committed by ignorance without the knowledge of the congregation, that all the congregation shall offer one young bullock for a burnt offering, for a sweet savour unto the LORD, with his meat offering, and his drink offering, according to the manner, and one kid of the goats for a sin offering.
25 And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them; for it is ignorance: and they shall bring their offering, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD, and their sin offering before the LORD, for their ignorance:
26 And it shall be forgiven all the congregation of the children of Israel, and the stranger that sojourneth among them; seeing all the people were in ignorance.
27 And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering.
28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.
29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.
30 ¶ But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
31 Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.
32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.
37 ¶ And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
38 Speak unto the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put upon the fringe of the borders a ribband of blue:
39 And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the LORD, and do them; and that ye seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a whoring:
40 That ye may remember, and do all my commandments, and be holy unto your God.
41 I am the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: I am the LORD your God.

"The mixed multitude that came up with the Israelites from Egypt were a source of continual temptation and trouble. They professed to have renounced idolatry and to worship the true God; but their early education and training had molded their habits and character, and they were more or less corrupted with idolatry and with irreverence for God. They were oftenest the ones to stir up strife and were the first to complain, and they leavened the camp with their idolatrous practices and their murmurings against God. {PP 408.3}

Soon after the return into the wilderness, an instance of Sabbath violation occurred, under circumstances that rendered it a case of peculiar guilt. The Lord's announcement that He would disinherit Israel had roused a spirit of rebellion. One of the people, angry at being excluded from Canaan, and determined to show his defiance of God's law, ventured upon the open transgression of the fourth commandment by going out to gather sticks upon the Sabbath. During the sojourn in the wilderness the kindling of fires upon the seventh day had been strictly prohibited. The prohibition was not to extend to the land of Canaan, where the severity of the climate would often render fires a necessity; but in the wilderness, fire was not needed for warmth. The act of this man was a willful and deliberate violation of the fourth commandment--a sin, not of thoughtlessness or ignorance, but of presumption. {PP 408.4}

He was taken in the act and brought before Moses. It had already been declared that Sabbathbreaking should be punished with death, but it had not yet been revealed how the penalty was to be inflicted. The case was brought by Moses before the Lord, and the direction was given, "The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp." Numbers 15:35. The sins of blasphemy and willful Sabbathbreaking received the same punishment, being equally an expression of contempt for the authority of God. {PP 409.1}

In our day there are many who reject the creation Sabbath as a Jewish institution and urge that if it is to be kept, the penalty of death must be inflicted for its violation; but we see that blasphemy received the same punishment as did Sabbathbreaking. Shall we therefore conclude that the third commandment also is to be set aside as applicable only to the Jews? Yet the argument drawn from the death penalty applies to the third, the fifth, and indeed to nearly all the ten precepts, equally with the fourth. Though God may not now punish the transgression of His law with temporal penalties, yet His word declares that the wages of sin is death; and in the final execution of the judgment it will be found that death is the portion of those who violate His sacred precepts. {PP 409.2}

During the entire forty years in the wilderness, the people were every week reminded of the sacred obligation of the Sabbath, by the miracle of the manna. Yet even this did not lead them to obedience. Though they did not venture upon so open and bold transgression as had received such signal punishment, yet there was great laxness in the observance of the fourth commandment. God declares through His prophet, "My Sabbaths they greatly polluted." Ezekiel 20:13-24. And this is enumerated among the reasons for the exclusion of the first generation from the Promised Land. Yet their children did not learn the lesson. Such was their neglect of the Sabbath during the forty years' wandering, that though God did not prevent them from entering Canaan, He declared that they should be scattered among the heathen after the settlement in the Land of Promise. {PP 409.3}

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Edward F Sutton

quote:

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Soon after the return into the wilderness, an instance of Sabbath violation occurred, under circumstances that rendered it a case of peculiar guilt. The Lord's announcement that He would disinherit Israel had roused a spirit of rebellion. One of the people, angry at being excluded from Canaan, and determined to show his defiance of God's law, ventured upon the open transgression of the fourth commandment by going out to gather sticks upon the Sabbath. During the sojourn in the wilderness the kindling of fires upon the seventh day had been strictly prohibited. The prohibition was not to extend to the land of Canaan, where the severity of the climate would often render fires a necessity; but in the wilderness, fire was not needed for warmth. The act of this man was a willful and deliberate violation of the fourth commandment--a sin, not of thoughtlessness or ignorance, but of presumption. {PP 408.4}

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This answers my question about the man gathering sticks on the Sabbath. It was the reason why he did it rather than it simply being the act itself. Does this, therefore, mean that we can do anything we want to do on the Sabbath, if our motive for doing it is right?

__________________________
Psalms 119:165 "Great peace
have they which love thy law:
and nothing shall offend them."

Daryl

[This message has been edited by Daryl Fawcett (edited April 23, 2001).]

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And the second is like it . . .

Deuteronomy 29:
29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

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Edward F Sutton

On the surface, this could relate to any problem of any kind, but, if we look at it in context we see the whole story:

1 ¶ And he entered again into the synagogue; and there was a man there which had a withered hand.
2 And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him.
3 And he saith unto the man which had the withered hand, Stand forth.
4 And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.
5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.

You see, He was setting a test of the heart condition of His listeners, and opening their eyes to the spirit iof the Sabbath commandment.
They had placed so many restrictions on what you could and couldn't do on the Lord's Sabbath, it had become a 'millstone' around the peoples necks.

2)Matthew 12:11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
Luke 14:5 And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day?

The leaders of the nation of Isreal would not hesitate to remove an animal from a pit on the sabbath, but, they would not think of lifting a finger to help their fellow man.Matthew 12:10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.
11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.
13 Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.

And the story in Luke is like it:
Luke 14:1 ¶ And it came to pass, as he went into the house of one of the chief Pharisees to eat bread on the sabbath day, that they watched him.
2 And, behold, there was a certain man before him which had the dropsy.
3 And Jesus answering spake unto the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath day?
4 And they held their peace. And he took him, and healed him, and let him go;
5 And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day?
6 And they could not answer him again to these things.

Could not? Or would not out of the hardness of their hearts?

The main purpose of the Sabbath healings was to open the eyes of the Pharisees, and other leaders, to the way they were treating the 'apple' of God's eye, His crowning creation, man.

They were more concerned with temporal things and not at all about spiritual.

My $0.02

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Examine me, O LORD, and prove me: try my reins and my heart. Ps.26:2

The only difference I may have is your statement that the MAIN reason Christ healed on the Sabbath is to teach the theologians a lesson. I still read the story as portraying Christ's love for man being the focus, but He was able to use the experience to show that this love trumped the restrictive rules and limited attitude of those who saw, and those of us who read. Christ's ministry focused on love. Therefore our ministry needs to do the same. And we, as the theologians of Christ's day, need to learn that unselfish love exhibited by action should not be considered sin, no matter what day that action is exhibited. Keep in mind that I believe the focus is unselfish love, or motive, or why we do the action.

The day to day activity of earning a living.
We are to lay aside our working for a living, employment in other words.
That is where we make a mistake, we are also not to seek our own pleasure (things we do any other time).

I heard Elder Brooks speak one time about working on the sabbath, he said we are not to just lay around doing nothing, there is a work we can do on sabbath, relieve the suffering of others, meet the need of others, open our heart to those that have a need of understanding and share the love of Christ with everybody.
If a neighbors roof is blown off on sabbath, do something to keep the weather out, make the house comfortable and safe from the weather, I'm not advocating putting a roof on, just keepimg the weather out.
If you see an eldery person along the road with a flat tire or out of gas, stop and help them, don't leave them standing there( younger ones as well)

Like I said in the SDA Today forum, lack of planning on your/my part does not constitute an emergency on God's part.
There are things that happen unexpectedly, meet the need.

But just because we want something doesn't mean we need it.
Needs are to be met when needed, wants can wait until a better time to be met.

The phrase "seeking your own pleasure" is not the best translation as its contemporary meaning is quite different than in the time of King James. (See my early post on Isaiah 58) A better translation in more contemporary expression is perhaps "doing as you please" or quite simply, being selfish or doing something for selfish reasons. The context in Isaiah 58 puts a distinct meaning on that phrase as used in Isaiah 58:13 regarding the Sabbath. The very same phrase is used earlier in the chapter, with an explaination of what it means regarding fasting. See what God, through the prophet Isaiah, said He meant in that context in verses 3-4 when He said "doing as you please." "Yet on the day of your fasting, you do as you please and exploit your workers. Your fasting ends in quarreling and strife and striking each other with wicked fists." And in case that isn't clear enough then continue on in verses 6-7 to see the contrasting behavior or how God truly wants us to worship Him, by correcting injustice, setting free the oppressed, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, finding shelter for the homeless and we are to start our kindness in our own household.

It has absolutely nothing to do with recreational activity or doing something you enjoy. Otherwise enjoying worshiping in Church, eating a good meal, enjoying a nature walk all would be breaking the Sabbath, because I find pleasure and satisfaction in doing all of them. Understanding the phrase wrongly also renders verse 13 self-contradicting by first saying don't do anything pleasurable and then instructing us to call the Sabbath a delight. By understanding the context it really makes much sense. So go out and enjoy yourself on Sabbath! And nothing brings greater joy and satisfaction than to help someone by easing their burdens, whatever they may be. Don't be selfish - share a Sabbath day's blessing with somebody. No emergency is necessary.

Tom

-- Rest. Don't plan to work. If an emergency happens where someone needs your help, then work work work to help your neighbor out of his jam.

-- The day is "hallowed" by God Himself. Honor Him by recoginizing His presence. Be relaxed in Him. Confer with Him. If you feel led, read the Bible, or mediate on the scriptures you've already been reading all week.

-- A person who does physical labor all week might be inclined to be less active on the Sabbath.

-- A person who is sedentary all week might be inclined to be more physically active on the Sabbath.

No matter what anyone says, the issue remains so simple to me.

By seeking our own pleasure, I had in mind playing games, amusing ourselves to the exclusion of others.
Doing as we please without regard to the consequences.

Sabbath is a day of rest form our earning a living, not being guided by the urge to obtain more of the worlds goods.
There is nothing wrong with doing what needs to be done.
Jesus is our prime example in this.

Too often we harp on what we can't do on sabbath instead of what we can do.
I can feed a hungry person, I can walk with someone that is hurting, I can offer an arm to a needy individual.

But the best thing of all, when I show love and concern for others, I am actually showing love for my creator as well.
Jesus said that "in as much as ye did it unto the least of them my brothers, ye did it unto me".Mt.25:40

If we do not do it, it is the same as not doing it for Him.
Let's take a look at what we can do on Sabbath to make it a delight.

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Examine me, O LORD, and prove me: try my reins and my heart. Ps.26:2
It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in men.Ps.118:8

You are right, I don't understand what you are saying. It now appears that it is OK in your opinion to provide needs of others, but not their wants on Sabbath. Therefore, the man with the withered hand NEEDED to have it healed.
	quote: Wedntgp ~ April 22, 2001 03:53 PM

You seem bent on taking certain quotes of mine out of context, in attempt to paint me in a bad light. Why is that, Wedntgp?!

Instead of composing a response to your accusation that implies that I would seat myself at the throne of the universe, and taking upon myself what each person needs or does not need, allow me to point you to other comments I have already made, comments which you seem to have ignored:

I love to please Him; and He loves to make me happy. He shows me the best way to honor and worship Him, and to find rest in Him. I would rather trust God's wisdom, than to lean on my own understandings. (the following was in response to a comment someone had made stating that what we do on the Sabbath is up to our own personal prone-to-human-error judgement call) It may be up to the individual; but it would be wise for the individual to not rely upon their own fallible judgement. Instead, the individual should be praying without ceasing, always listening and watching for the leading of God. So instead of it being up to the individual, it should be up to God, for He knows best and will not lead the individual astray, nor into harm's way.

quote: DenBorg

Wedntgp, do you have a problem with God calling the shots? Who do you want to be in charge of things: you?, me?, someone else? or God?

Personally, I choose God.

I would suggest that one of my best friends with a "withered" hand does not need it healed, but he would sure like it healed. Could you help me understand your position and what made the healing of this person a need? I suggest that healing is never needed, but is always wanted. I would suggest that scooping snow on Sabbath is never needed, but always wanted. I would suggest that food on Sabbath is never needed, but always wanted. (At least in virtually all cases, waiting until sundown to eat would not be terminal.) Define with more precision your definition of want and your definition of need. We need Christ. So is telling of Christ the only activity appropriate on Sabbath?

quote: Wedntgp ~ April 22, 2001 03:53 PM

If you wish to be as cynical as you are trying to describe me to be, Wedntgp, then you could even say that the "needs" of someone in a life-and-death situation are not truly "needs", for if they accept Christ, then they will be raised up in the first resurrection and then live forever. Their death would even seal their eternal life, for after death, they cannot change their mind.

Would you like to try to paint me in that light, Wedntgp?!

I see the relief of human suffering as "needs". "Needs" are not always in the context of "life-and-death", or in facing imminent death.

Wedntgp, you ask if I believe that telling others about Christ is the only acceptable Sabbath activity. I will refrain from composing an answer to that question, for I have already answered that question in my previous comments; if you have not read them with the honest intention of understanding what was said, then you would not have such an intention with any additional comments or with any rephrasing I could provide for you.

So, Wedntgp, if you truly want to understand me or my comments, you may start with previous comments in this thread and give them an honest reading. And in addition to that, I lift up the example of Christ's life. Did He only preach the gospel on Sabbath? Or were there other things which He also did? things which you've recently characterized as "wants" and not needs.

As has been stated, if we do it for others, we do it for Christ. Sabbath is for spending time with Christ. If my activity is for Christ, I am spending time with Him.
	quote: Wedntgp ~ April 22, 2001 03:53 PM

Here again I see the stance of What you do is totally unimportant. Why you do it is the only thing that counts.

As I've stated before, I do not agree with this philosophy; I believe their is inherent danger in such a belief. Perhaps this should be discussed in a different thread: Is what you do unimportant and inconsequential if your motives or intentions are good/honorable/favorable? Is it possible to do the wrong thing for the right reasons? And would having the right reasons nullify the negative impact of doing the wrong thing?

Did not Saul (who later became Paul), believe he was doing what was right when he was murdering Christians? (I may be wrong, but my understanding is that Saul believed he was doing the right thing, and that he was doing it for God) Did God respond with, "Saul, you are murdering Me! But that is OK, because your motives are right!" Did God respond with, "Saul, you are murdering Christians, but you are doing it for Me and that makes it OK."

After all, it must be alright, for someone has said:

If my activity is for Christ, I am spending time with Him.

What of those today who murder prostitutes and bums, but do so from "honorable intentions"? Are their actions of no import?

Think about Cain. Cain offered to God the fruit of his own labor. Cain was giving of himself. Not only was Cain offering a sacrifice, but he was sacrificing something important to him, which he labored over and put in much sweat and hard work. Surely God would appreciate something which came from himself which he worked so hard for. Wouldn't it be more meaningful for Cain to give something which was important to him and came from him, than to offer up something which came from someone else: one of his brother's lambs?

Yet God did not say, "Cain, you disobeyed me, but your motives where in the right place, so that makes everything right."

Now, no one here as suggested that there is nothing wrong with murder as long as the motive for the murder is right. But I bring up these illustrations to bring up a point:

Both what we do, and why we do it, are important. You cannot sacrifice one for the other, and still have that intimate relationship with God. When one gives his life to Christ, He won't change only the person's motives, but will also change the person's behavior (i.e. actions) You cannot ask God to change your "motives", but to leave your "actions" untouched.

[This message has been edited by DenBorg (edited June 21, 2001).]

So, as I understand what you are saying, it would be OK for the dentist to fix teeth on Sabbath, which is his occupation, and what he does best, because that has to do with health, but it is not ok for the plumber to eliminate human discomfort because it does not have to do with healing, even though that is what he does best and the manner in which he feels comfortable serving his fellow man?
	quote: Wedntgp ~ April 21, 2001 03:19 AM

Somehow you seem to have missed one of my plumbing-related comments. For there were two plumbing scenarios which I described; one of which I would tend to on Sabbath and one which I would not tend to on Sabbath. Yet, Wedntgp, you seem to have willfully ignored one of them.

But perhaps you have a point, Wedntgp. For recently I have noticed the intense human discomfort in not having gold-plated faucet fixtures installed in one's bathroom, and the paralyzing agony of having grass in the yard that is a-half inch too long! Surely these are needs which absolutely must be done for your neighbor on Sabbath, and not the day before or the day after.

Sarcasm aside, I still believe as I mentioned before, and as someone else had also previously mentioned:

One does not have to wait for the Sabbath hours before he/she can perform acts of kindness in doing good deeds for others which may not be considered "dire needs."

The Sabbath is not the only time to exhibit our Christian love. Christianity is not about a day; it is about a life, a life with Christ and walking with Him and relying upon Him for guidance.

You are absolutely right about this, Wedntgp: "Talk is cheap, action is where its at." Which is precisely why I believe my activities are important, as are my motives. Both the what and the why are important. This is why I want to obey God in all things, including in how I observe the Sabbath; not to earn His favor or to earn salvation; but because He saved me and is changing my life.

What better witness is there, than to be seen following God and also seeing the wonderful blessings that result from walking with Him?

[This message has been edited by DenBorg (edited June 21, 2001).]

A good injection of Romans 14 would be good to put into our Sabbath discussion. Often we look at the following text as one we try to explain away along with the other "Sunday texts" but it contains a great principle for what we "can and can't do" on Sabbath.

"Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it." Romans 14:4-6a

The principle here is that stuff that is appropriate is only appropriate if it is so "in God's sight" (Coram Deo). What "Coram Deo" is for each person tends to vary with a whole bunch of presuppositions, maturity levels, conception of reality, etc.

The Godly forbearance that Paul seems to be advocating on this issue is something that was for the good of the Christian church. If it was not displayed, the early group of believers could have quickly gone "belly-up." So with us.

Remember that throughout the centuries the Jews didn't keep the Sabbath so much as the Sabbath kept the Jews.

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You have done many good things for me, Lord, just as you promised. I believe in your commands; now teach me good judgment and knowledge. Psalm 119:65-66 NLT

[This message has been edited by DenBorg (edited June 26, 2001).]

Does this, therefore, mean that we can do anything we want to do on the Sabbath, if our motive for doing it is right?
	quote: Daryl Fawcett

and in response, DrD commented:

Would it be too bold to suggest that if your motive is right, you would want to do "right" things? So therefore the answer to your question, Daryl, would be yes, if your motive is right, you can do anything you want on Sabbath. Wouldn't that make the Sabbath a pure delight, doing only what you want to? Praise the Lord!!!!
	quote: DrD

It is a good question, and I can appreciate DrD's reply.

I remember a very similiar question being asked by our teachers in my Sabbath school class years back. Something along the lines of: "If you are a Christian and have given your life to God, can you then do anything you want?" I do not recall the teachers ever giving a definitive answer, but instead let us discuss and debate amongst ourselves. It is a question that I've pondered over the years since.

Back then, my response was much like DrD's; and his point is valid. And I understand this point to be: "When you give your life to Jesus, and walk with Him, you are changed and will not want to do anything that will hurt Him, nor anything that would separate you from Him." The logical conclusion might then be that you could then do anything you please.

The problem I see with this today, however, is that it seems to assume that the change in us by Him is instantaneous; that our character and personal judgement instantly becomes perfect and infallible.

It seems to me that "I'm a Christian, and I walk with God. I love Him and don't want to hurt Him, nor do anything that would harm my relationship with Him. Therefore I can now do anything I desire." can all-to-easily promote self-reliance.

We need to remember that sanctification, God's purifying work in our lives, is an on-going process. It is not a one-time event, and *poof!* you're suddenly perfect. Rather, it is a process that happens during the course of our lives here on Earth. This corruption has not yet put on incorruption. This process of God working in our lives will be instantly made complete in a twinkling of an eye on that great and glorious day of His return.

But meanwhile, we need to remember that we need to depend upon Him daily, and seek His guidance. Even Jesus did not do His own will while He lived here on Earth; but instead He did the will of His Father in heaven.

Our own personal judgements are still prone to human error. Even though we are walking with God, we do not always know what is best for us. True, the longer we walk with Him, the better we know Him and the closer we walk with Him and the more we become like Him; but even still, our own personal judgments are not infallible.

The following verse comes to mind:

Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths.
	quote: Proverbs 3:5,6

The way I see it, leaning on Jesus would not make the Sabbath any less a delight; in fact, quite the opposite, it would make it a tremendous delight by spending it with Him. This would be true not only for the Sabbath, but for your whole life.

I would appreciate further comments on this.

-Dennis Borg

quote:

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Originally posted by DenBorg:
If someone needed gold-plated fixtures installed to replace their plain-looking fixtures, I would do that some other time.

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Let's get real here. This plumber is doing charity work for poor people. I know what it is like to be "financially challenged." There was a time long ago when we lived so far below the poverty level we would have felt incredibly wealthy to have been at the poverty level! Believe me, except for those relatively few persons whose only ambition in life is to take advantage of the generosity and gullibility of those around them, people who are poor enough to be willing to humble their pride and accept such acts of charity are not in the habit of wanting things like gold-plated fixtures! They would just be glad to be able to remove the pail catching the drips under the sink, replace the vice-grips with a real faucet handle, or have the sewage line vented where it should be, instead of directly into the bathroom (like in the house my daughter recently moved out of).

And as for when this particular plumber chooses to do this charity work that God has called him to do, you do not know his circumstances, or whether he even has the option of doing it on some other day of the week. Have you ever been self-employed in this type of business? We’ve been there too. (In fact, it was the very same time that we were living so far below the poverty level.) Self-employed tradesmen generally put in long hours, and despite what most people conclude from the hourly rates they charge, few of them are getting rich. Overhead in such businesses is very high. It may be that by the time this plumber is finished with the paying jobs that put a roof over his family’s heads and food on the table, he is too tired to go out and do still more manual labor each day. Or maybe he figures his family needs to see him on other days of the week than just Sabbath. Even if that is all day, it just can’t make up for no contact at all on the other six days – and self-employed people do often work six or seven days a week, particularly when emergencies come up.

If he doesn’t normally work on Sundays, he might actually reserve that one day of the week to do whatever work around his own house needs to be done, and for family events. (For those whose extended families are not SDA, or even any kind of Christian, like mine, Sabbath is not the time to spend in their company, trying to ignore the vulgar talk and frequent profanity, the smoking and drinking, or simply listening to the political arguments or just plain gossip.) And what father should never have time to go along on family outings to places that wouldn’t be suitable to visit on Sabbath? Only the most dedicated family men will make the effort to set aside time for such things, when the demands of a business are so great.

It is all well and good for you to speculate as to what you would do in such circumstances, even though you likely don’t have the faintest idea what your life would actually be like if you really did have such a career, but if you are going to take it upon yourself to sit in judgment on this plumber himself, I say to you, “Who are you that judgest another man’s servant? To his own master he standeth or falleth.” Romans 14:4. If God has called him to this work, God, and only God, has the right to tell him when he should do it.

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The Lord is the strength of my life and my portion forever.

Inorder to believe God you must follow this process.

(A.) God sets the terms, you follow them.

The Bible & SOP are those terms.

(KJV) Deuteronomy 29:29 sets the tone of the terms.

The internal & external terms are set with their twin limits upon what is enjoined(supposed to do & why) and what is forbidden and why. Then you lay hold of God's merits and motives & strength to follow those internal terms of doing & not doing. You ask for and receive repentance where Scripture & SOP show repentance is due . By faith that acts upon what God has revealed you grasp the promises from Jesus and follow Him.

These basics you progress with, but never outgrow. They continue till you enter eternity. Then they bloom indeed where no tempter ever disturbs the belivers again.

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Edward F Sutton

Let's get real here. This plumber is doing charity work for poor people. ... ... ... It is all well and good for you to speculate as to what you would do in such circumstances, even though you likely don’t have the faintest idea what your life would actually be like if you really did have such a career, but if you are going to take it upon yourself to sit in judgment on this plumber himself, I say to you, “Who are you that judgest another man’s servant? To his own master he standeth or falleth.” Romans 14:4. If God has called him to this work, God, and only God, has the right to tell him when he should do it.

quote: Cathy Sears

I have not spoken one single, solitary word about "this plumber" which Wedntpg told us about at 1:38 PM ADT on Feb 4, 2001, neither in agreement nor in disagreement in regard to what "this plumber" did. Nor have I ever suggested that "this plumber" was actually installing gold-plated fixtures for the poor and needy in that town.

So, who is Cathy Sears to judge another's servant? (Romans 14:4)

While I have not commented whatsoever on "this plumber", I have used hypothetical illustrations to depict principles which I apply to my own life. One such illustration just so happened to contain the topic of plumbing, but in no wise referred to that particular plumber nor his/her actions. Read again my comments about the hypothetical plumbing situations:

If I were a plumber, ... ... If there were a plumbing emergency on Sabbath, I would attend to it. If someone needed gold-plated fixtures installed to replace their plain-looking fixtures, I would do that some other time.
	quote: DenBorg

You will find absolutely no reference to "this plumber" nor to the work which "this plumber" did in that town of poor and needy people, in any of my prior comments. In fact, this is the only post in which I have ever made any reference whatsoever to that plumber and what he/she did in that town; and even still, I have made absolutely no comments either in approval or in disapproval of his/her actions.

But for some unknown reason, Cathy, you seem to think that whenever I mention "plumbing", that I must be talking about "this plumber", as if "this plumber" is the only plumber in the whole history of the whole world.

And as for when this particular plumber chooses to do this charity work that God has called him to do, you do not know his circumstances, or whether he even has the option of doing it on some other day of the week. Have you ever been self-employed in this type of business?
	quote: Cathy Sears

But please take careful note, Cathy, that this principle which I stated was not aimed at "this plumber"; in fact, I never even mentioned "this plumber" in that particular comment (nor have I in any of my comments). My comment here merely says that nobody has to selfishly horde his/her own time during the first six days of the week, and then do charity only on the Sabbath. In other words, we should not be selfish throughout the week, and then be unselfish only on the Sabbath. While this is true for "this plumber", I did not specifically address "this plumber", but to followers of Christ in general as a whole.

Why do you presume to know, Cathy, that I disapprove of "this plumber's" actions? Do you know my heart? Can you read my mind? For you couldn't be any more wrong in your presumption!

Now, that being said, Cathy, you may agree or disagree with this principle which I mentioned concerning doing good only on Sabbath. But I find it very interresting that when I make mention of this principle, you accuse me of being judgemental. But you yourself, Cathy, said this very thing: "I am firmly convinced that my entire life everything I have and am belongs to God. Not just one tenth of my material increase and one seventh of my time, but 100% of my time, talents, abilities, and material resources." Yet you do not accuse yourself of being judgemental of "this plumber". (page 2 of this thread)

Then, in response to Won Bae who said the same thing about being selfish with time and putting off until the Sabbath to do missionary work, you replied, "You have made a very good point, Won Bae. Most people in our society these days are far too busy, not just making money, but with social engagements, amusements, and their own personal projects." And then three paragraphs later, you specifically address "this plumber", stating that the principles you just described would also apply to him/her: "And that goes for the plumber too." (page 2 of this thread)

So, when Won Bae said it, you agreed, and you re-echo the same in your own words. But when I say the very same thing, you accuse me of being judgemental. What is up with this double-standard, Cathy?!

Ed Sutton, on page 2 of this thread, commented that broken teeth and gashed lips should be taken care of now, even on Sabbath; but crowns and cleanings can wait. That broken hips go the the ER and perhaps surgery, and the face lift waits. The sad and lonely are talked to and comforted now, on Sabbath, after Sabbath, and before Sabbath.

Yet you do not accuse Ed of being judgemental of "this plumber"; perhaps because he made no mention of plumbing.

But also on page 2, Daryl Fawcett comments that if he were a plumber, he would tend to an immediate plumbing need in a situation which could not wait, such as a broken faucet or whatever which is allowing water to gush out into the room. But as far as menial routine noncritical plumbing which could wait for another day, Daryl would do that some other time other than Sabbath.

Yet you do not accuse Daryl of judging "this plumber", and he does make specific mention of "plumbing"

It is all well and good for you to speculate as to what you would do in such circumstances, even though you likely don’t have the faintest idea what your life would actually be like if you really did have such a career, ... ...
	quote: Cathy Sears

My walk with God today defines my response to the circumstances of tomorrow; and that response shall be built upon the principles and truths which He has revealed to me today, not upon the shifting sands found in the heat-of-the-moment passions of tomorrow's circumstances.

If you disagree with this principle, Cathy, then so be it.

The only things with which I had expressed disagreement with are the following points, which have been made either explicitly or implicitly:

1.	The implication that everything which people desire are needs; that there is no distinction between wants and needs.
	I believe that there is a difference between "needs" and "wants". Furthermore, there are needs which do not pertain to thwarting off imminent death or perilous circumstances. Someone may want gold-plated ... no, wait ... someone will incorrectly assume I am attacking "this plumber" .... Someone may want a brand new car, but not actually need it. Someone else may also want a new car, and actually need it; usually this person is not demanding a brand-new Lexus, Cadillac, or a Dodge Viper, but rather a nice car in good or excellent condition which can be depended upon. Some kid may want a ton of candy, but not need it. Someone may want a million dollars, but not need it. Someone may want and need healing, food, a tire fixed, some important errands run, or prescriptions filled, or a myriad of other possible needs. Wedntgp asserts that there is no difference between wants and needs. The only thing which is a "need", according to Wedntgp, is for people to hear the gospel of Christ; everything else is merely a "want"; except, perhaps, in cases where imminent danger or death is present. I disagree. Most often, needs are also wants; but not all wants are needs. Sometimes, people may not want something which they need, usually because they do not perceive the need. But none-the-less, needs and wants are not synonymous.
2.	What we do is of no consequence, as long as we have good intentions. I believe that both actions and motives are important and that they go hand-in-hand; that we should not rely upon our own fallible human judgement on what we should or should not do, but rather yield to the will of God, and depend upon His wisdom instead of upon human frailty. See Proverbs 3:5,6
3.	A person's activities may consist of anything under the sun, so long as it is "done for some other person."
	This is kind of a combination of #1 and #2. Suffice it to say that I also disagree with this for reasons given above.
4.	That what a person should or should not do should be left up to that person's own personal judgement."
	I believe that we should not presume to be self-reliant; that we should constantly be looking to God for wisdom, understanding, and guidance. That should we depend upon our own error-prone judgement, then we are begging for trouble. See Proverbs 3:5,6

Now, Cathy, you or anyone else may disagree with me on any or all of the above four points; but if you do disagree, then just simply disagree. Do not falsely accuse me of judging someone about whom I've never commented!

[This message has been edited by DenBorg (edited June 27, 2001).]

This thankless gut wrenching choice started at the last passover that became communion, crushed Him unto death in Gethsemene, kept raging inside Him all through the beatings of the kangaroo court, and burst His heart on Calvary & for our sake killed Him by His own choice, a lightening rod for all the lost guilty law breakers. We the putrid and He the perfect, we got to live and ride the cart, he was mangled & killed under it.

Jesus inspired the terms of the obedience of which the Bible & SOP calls obedience & the non obedience of which the same inspired works calls treason.

At heart we are all traitors, until we strive to believe with our hearts and obey what is said to obey & refrain according to what is commanded to refrain from. Until then we do not even give believable lip service to loyalty to Jesus Christ. We are not able to receive His merits while either in defiance or neglect of Scripture and SOP for they we are a minded to consume all blessings upon our lusts.

Consider these two things, actions & motives according to knowledge. These things show themselves over time, sometimes faster than others.

Jesus said those who love Him obey Him knowingly. Jesus also said those who hate Him disobey Him knowingly .

John 14:
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Proverbs 15:12 A scorner loveth not one that reproveth him: neither will he go unto the wise.

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

The person who does not choose to surrender to the Lordship of Jesus and obey what is written in Scripture & SOP (knowing what it means yet turning away) is surrendering to the lordship of Satan. It is called entering into temptation and committing sin. That done often becomes a habit & a trend.

The remedy is repent and confess your sins to Jesus and if reconverted be rebaptized - thus re covenanting with God again.

Now how would I know this is true, because I have been in that situation & done that. I have been a scorner, a spiritually darkened commandment breaker, even an open Sabbath breaker. In time God re-reached me & I was motivated & enabled to repent & was rebaptized.

How many intend to obey what they presently understand about Sabbath Keeping from the terms God has set?
Reset the tones of conversation to a more humble demeanor. This topic of conscious loyalty or conscious disloyalty cost Jesus His life to settle.

Things are getting too heated between brethren. The real issues are being lost in the volleys and exchanges. Jesus is worth more than heated repartee online, He is the Lord of this topic. Lord of the Sabbath.

When it is posted what the reasons for the existence of & nature of Sabbath, things will go much further in discovering what ought and ought not be on Sabbath.

------------------
Edward F Sutton

You should not be so quick to jump to conclusions and take offense. My comments were not directed at you personally. If they were, I would have mentioned your name at the beginning of the post, as I have done in this one. While you may not have ever stated that the plumber whose case opened this thread was breaking the Sabbath by doing his charitable works on the Sabbath, others have, and my words about not judging were directed, once again, to them and to anyone else who may be inclined to agree.

I said nothing any different in that last post than I’ve said before, except in relation to the quoted words about the gold-plated fixtures, which have been repeated several times in this thread since you first mentioned them. I had no objection to your saying that in the first place, only to the fact that it has been repeated so often since. Any mention of such luxuries as gold-plated fixtures is totally irrelevant to the original intent of this discussion, which is supposed to be focused on meeting the real needs of those around us, whether it is acceptable to do so on the Sabbath, and whether it is appropriate to make judgments about someone else’s Sabbath missionary work.

Nobody has made even a hint of a suggestion that anything like installing gold-plated fixtures for someone could be even remotely considered appropriate for the Sabbath. But the phrase has been repeated so many times since you first injected it into the discussion, as to give the impression that the whole point of this discussion is luxury vs. necessity. And I am getting sick and tired of encountering the phrase. So all I really was trying to say in my last post was, “ENOUGH WITH THE GOLD-PLATED FIXTURES ALREADY! IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TOPIC AT HAND!”

Now do you get it? Maybe I should have just said that in the first place. Please forgive me for not taking the time to thoroughly examine every word before posting, to be absolutely certain that no one could possibly misunderstand any of it. I really don’t have time for that, so I’ve decided that I will no longer be participating in this discussion, or in any others that have the potential for offending anyone who does not share my opinion and takes it personally when someone presents an opposing opinion. (And before you get offended, I did not say that you got offended because I disagreed with you!)

As for my previous statements that you feel are contradictory, if you would read everything I’ve said on this thread, instead of just looking for things to criticize in retaliation for my perceived offense against you, you would discover that I have also stated that no one could possibly make a correct judgment of the plumber’s case without a personal knowledge of his situation. It could be that he really does spend a lot of time during the week on his own selfish interests, or puts in long hours in order to accumulate material possessions, thus robbing God by using the sacred hours for work which he could easily do at some other time, were he to arrange his time according to God’s priorities. Or it could instead be true that he has no choice but to put in long hours of work in order to supply only the basic necessities for his family, thus leaving him with no other time to see to the needs of his fellow man except the time that God has blessed to be used for His work. But it could also be that neither is correct. There are many facets to any situation that must be known before anyone could rightfully pass judgment on the actions of others, which is why God is the only One who has any right to judge.

I don’t see any contradiction in my mentioning two opposing possibilities, especially in light of my above, already stated conviction. Since we have no right to judge another person’s convictions, the only point in even discussing this matter is that it is always useful (and important) for each of us to prayerfully examine our own hearts and lives in order to learn whether we personally might be falling into one sin or another, and might have need for a change in our own priorities and practise.

------------------
The Lord is the strength of my life and my portion forever.

To Cathy Sears, the MSDAOL Administrators, and to All:

First of all, I would like to apologize for my angry tone in my previous reply to Cathy Sears. I was wrong to allow my feelings to govern the tone of my reply; and for that, I apologize.

I want to thank you, Edward, for pointing this out to me; it was definitely wise advice. Thank-you Edward. I definitely could have presented my objection in a very different manner.

When I first reviewed this site for registration consideration, I was very impressed to see how everyone conducted themselves, particularly when they did not agree with each other, for even then, everyone remained respectful.

Prior to registering with Maritime SDA Online, I frequented Club Adventist (CA). I was really seeking an atmosphere such as can usually be found here at MSDAOL, but CA was where I ended up. Perhaps some of you are familiar with the climate there; blanket and unfounded accusations and name calling runs rampant there, and "judge not lest ye be judged" rebuttels are commonplace.

One person was continually arguing with me over things which I never said. (I wasn't the only one she did this to) I was patient with her and had clearly shown her countless times that I did not say what she thought I said, but it did absolutely no good whatsoever. You could say something today, and she'd wholeheartedly agree. But when you say the same thing later on, in the same or different post, she would vehemently argue against you.

The straw which broke the camel's back for me was when I noticed a harsh (to put it mildly) response from someone who obviously misunderstood what the original poster was saying. I had not participated in that thread's discussion, nor did I have any desire to do so, but I did submit a polite and respectful post to help clear up the misunderstanding: "Mr. B, I believe you have misunderstood what Mr. A was saying. Mr. A may correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Mr. A was saying ..." Mr. A later confirmed that I was correct and he thanked me.

What was the result? Mr. B, and perhaps a few others, started a barrage of nonsensical, unrelated, and inflammatory attacks in several subsequent posts, calling me a Jesus-hater, and a Jesuit infiltrator among other things.

I haven't been back since. I immediately went looking for some other place, hopefully where meaningful conversations could take place. I found MSDAOL.

This does not excuse the tone I used while stating my objection, but it may help you all understand why it bothered me so when I saw something similiar happen here on MSDAOL, especially from a Moderator.

Cathy Sears, please accept my sincere apologies for being spiteful and bitter towards you in my last reply.

There are some issues in your latest reply which I would like to discuss, and I sincerely hope we can do so rationally and respectfully.

Cathy:

You should not be so quick to jump to conclusions and take offense. My comments were not directed at you personally. If they were, I would have mentioned your name at the beginning of the post, as I have done in this one. While you may not have ever stated that the plumber whose case opened this thread was breaking the Sabbath by doing his charitable works on the Sabbath, others have, and my words about not judging were directed, once again, to them and to anyone else who may be inclined to agree.

quote: Cathy Sears

Suppose you were conversing with several people in a room, and immediately after you heard someone say something which you did not like, you then snapped your head, looked right in that person's eyes and made a harsh statement about what was said. Would the fact that you did not mention that person's name in your statement mean that no one in that group of people would know who you were directing that comment to?! No! It would have been exceedingly clear to everyone present about whom you were talking to.

Likewise here, you explicitly quoted me with something which I alone have said, and then you argued against that quote. So it was exceeding clear, even though you did not mention my name (save for the automated "Originally posted by DenBorg"), that you were directing your comments to me.

I can even point out an example, contained elsewhere in this thread, where you have directed comments at someone personally, without explicitly typing that individual's name. On page 1 of this thread, you will see where you replied to Won Bae directly, twice, and only in one of those two times did you mention Won Bae by name. In the first one, you just quoted Won and then asked him/her: "How do you know the plumber's reason for doing what he did?" When Won questioned you about it, instead saying that you did not direct that comment at him/her personally, you said "Won, You made a statement about the motives of a person you have never met..."

This is a very clear example of a different instance where you have directed comments at a particular individual without formally addressing that person at the onset of your post.

I said nothing any different in that last post than I’ve said before, except in relation to the quoted words about the gold-plated fixtures, which have been repeated several times in this thread since you first mentioned them. I had no objection to your saying that in the first place, only to the fact that it has been repeated so often since. ... ... Nobody has made even a hint of a suggestion that anything like installing gold-plated fixtures for someone could be even remotely considered appropriate for the Sabbath. But the phrase has been repeated so many times since you first injected it into the discussion, as to give the impression that the whole point of this discussion is luxury vs. necessity.

quote: Cathy Sears

So how is it, Cathy, that you say you object to the phrase being "repeated so often since" the post in which I first mentioned it? For it was only mentioned one time since then up until your outburst. How do you justify that statement?

I am curious to know, Cathy, why haven't you taken offense to the phrase "mow" or "mowing"? For this phrase has been mentioned in more posts, and has been mentioned more than twice as many times! This phrase has also been mentioned by twice the number of people! (2) Also, this phrase was introduced three months before the phrase with which you took such great offense to.

Shall we expect a post from you in the near future exclaiming, "ENOUGH WITH THE MOWING ALREADY! IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TOPIC AT HAND!"?

Any mention of such luxuries as gold-plated fixtures is totally irrelevant to the original intent of this discussion, which is supposed to be focused on meeting the real needs of those around us, whether it is acceptable to do so on the Sabbath, and whether it is appropriate to make judgments about someone else’s Sabbath missionary work.
	quote: Cathy Sears

I disagree.

It has been indicated more than one once that any and everything people desire are needs; or they are merely wants and that there is no such thing as a need except for hearing the gospel. It has been suggested that any activity is commendable as long as it is done in the name of "doing it for your neighbor". Again, I disagree.

Perhaps you disagree with me, Cathy. That is fine; doesn't bother me a bit. But please don't attempt to put down my point that there is a definite difference between "wants" and "needs" by trying to tell me that "meeting the needs" is what is being discussed here, and defining those needs is not pertinent to that discussion.

And I am getting sick and tired of encountering the phrase. So all I really was trying to say in my last post was, "ENOUGH WITH THE GOLD-PLATED FIXTURES ALREADY! IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TOPIC AT HAND!"
	quote: Cathy Sears

ENOUGH WITH THE GOLD-PLATED FIXTURES ALREADY! IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TOPIC AT HAND!

peple who are poor ... are not in the habit of wanting things like gold-plated fixtures. as for when this particular plumber chooses to do ... charity work..., you do not know his circumstances ... It is all well and good for you to speculate as to what you would do..., even though you likely don't have the faintest idea... if you are going to take it upon yourself to sit in judgement on this plumber himself, I say to you, "Who are you that judgest another man's servant?..." Romans 14:4 ... God, and only God, has the right to tell him when he should do it.

quote: Cathy Sears

Instead, you made it very clear that you believed me wrong for thinking the poor and needy wanted frivolous luxuries, that I was wrong about criticizing the plumber's conduct and for assuming that his circumstances permitted him to do these things some other time other than Sabbath, and that I was wrong in taking it upon myself to sit in judgement of this plumber. I don't see how you can possibly deny any of these things which you've stated in your reply to my comments.

But, so as not to offend you any further, Cathy, I shall refrain from using the phrase "gold-plated fixtures" since you seem to perceive this phrase as one heavily used throughout this thread, even though I have spent very little time on that phrase and no one else has even mentioned it.

Cathy, are you also feeling the same animosity towards the phrase "mow" or "mowing"? This has been mentioned much more than the other phrase. What about other phrases, such as those related to dental, or healing, etc. I would hate to witness another encounter should you suddenly take issue with some other repeatedly-used phrase.

As for my previous statements that you feel are contradictory, if you would read everything I’ve said on this thread, instead of just looking for things to criticize in retaliation for my perceived offense against you, you would discover that I have also stated that no one could possibly make a correct judgment of the plumber’s case without a personal knowledge of his situation.
	quote: Cathy Sears

How many times must I read them, Cathy, to satisfy you?

Neither is your accusation true that I was just looking for things to criticize you for.

I am quite aware of the comment to which you are referring (about not knowing enough about the plumber's situation), nor have I forgotten about it. And it was precisely because I felt the same way that I refrained from discussing the rights and wrongs of this plumber and his actions; but then you lambasted me with one of your patented Romans 14:4 pink-slips, accusing me of sitting in judgement of this plumber. It was to this which I objected.

I don’t see any contradiction in my mentioning two opposing possibilities, especially in light of my above, already stated conviction.
	quote: Cathy Sears

The contradiction is this: Others, yourself included, commented and/or agreed with statements about also doing missionary work on other days and not only on Sabbath, and you expressed no problem with these statements. But when I expressed this same thought, you then retorted back with "and as for when this particular plumber chooses to do this charity work..., you do not know his circumstances... but if you are going to ... sit in judgement on this plumber himself, I say to you, 'Who are you that judgest another man's servant?...' Romans 14:4 ... God, and only God, has the right to tell him when he should do it."

Now do you get it, Cathy? The contradiciton was not in your giving two different plausible potential descriptions of the plumber's circumstances, but rather in the fact that you exhibited two different and opposite responses to the same thought: "one does not have to wait for the Sabbath hours before he/she can perform acts of kindness"

Cathy, and this is not meant as a dig, just a personal observation, you seem so quick to correct others and quickly hand out your Romans 14:4 pink slip to them, but yet find it so hard to admit when you are in the wrong. I can relate to that, though, because I've been there myself.

My prayers are with you, Cathy. And I sincerely hope we can conduct further discussions in a respectful and meaningful manner; and that neither of us nor anyone else, serves as agents in bringing down the quality of MSDAOL to the level which can be found at CA.

-Dennis Borg

While you may not have ever stated that the plumber whose case opened this thread was breaking the Sabbath by doing his charitable works on the Sabbath, others have, and my words about not judging were directed, once again, to them and to anyone else who may be inclined to agree.
	quote: Cathy Sears

Did you somehow mistakenly grab the wrong quote, and actually intended to quote someone else? Or did you figure "anybody's quote will do"?

I am sincerely at a total loss as to understand how you can quote me specifically, and target your response to my words, and actually be intending for your comments for someone else and not me.

Please explain.

I reviewed Cathy's post and did notice that she specifically used your quote and then made her comment.

If I were the person being quoted, I would have come to the same conclusion myself that you came to.

What has been said has been said.

Other than apologizing one to another, I wish us to move one and discuss the topic and no longer of the offenses taken.

This goes to show that even MSDAOL is not a perfect forum in this world of sin, however, we can learn from one another, forgive one another, and move on from there.

I pray and trust that will be the case here as we focus on the topic and respect one another's thoughts. Challenge the thoughts, yes. Attack the words of the person, no. In other words, it is OK to disagree agreeably, however, disagreeing disagreeably is contrary to the purpose of our forum rules.

it is also imperative in this and the other forums of MSDAOL to guard our words and the tone of our words.

Let us speak no more of the perceived offenses in this thread.

If either of you wish to pursue this further, let me know by email and I will grant access into a private forum that has been previously created for purposes such as this. I trust, however, that it won't be necessary.

Now back to the topic.

Take notice of the quote below as I sign off this post.

__________________________
Psalms 119:165 "Great peace
have they which love thy law:
and nothing shall offend them."

Daryl

[This message has been edited by Daryl Fawcett (edited June 28, 2001).]

The implied question created by the topic is what is appropriate & lawful and right to do on Sabbath and why; and what is not appropriate & lawful & right to do on Sabbath and why .

The needed benchmarks to find the correct answers, can only come from the benchmarks of what Sabbath and true worship is & is not. The benchmarks that reveal and define it's purpose and observance and goals to achive for mankind and inside the lives of all partisipating individuals .

To the levitical priest of Bible times and the SDA pastor of today. Sabbath is their busiest day of the week. Their work is to reconnect the peoples understanding and loyalty to God and His revealed will. In Bible times this ment lots of teaching & preaching & animal sacrifices, and all else that was involved. For the common people to teach & preach Scripture on Sabbath was lawful & good, but for them to imitate priests in their sacrifical duties as priests and as the common people as non priests seeking to offer atonement sacrifices for others was forbiden, as well as physically copying even limited variations of those actions through killing and processing food animals and cooking on Sabbath.

God is the One Who both created and commands and defines Sabbath keeping and worship upon Sabbath and worship upon the secular days of the week. His revealed will shows differences allowed for actions of secular and sacred nature & secular and sacred time.

The reason something is secular is that within God's limits we are allowed to decide, determine, command, and act upon something at our will. Be it person, place, thing, or time.

The reason something is sacred is that according to God's perogatives He is deciding, determining, commanding, acting, upon something reserved for Himself & His purposes. Be it person, place, thing, or time.

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Edward F Sutton

This is a pretty cut and dried comment.
Is it lawful to do good on the Sabbath day?
To releive the suffering of others is always good, and right.

Jesus said:
Matthew 20:15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
Even in His day, good acts were misinterpreted.
He was constantly under attack by others because of what He did.
Do we think we will have it any better?
Our only responsibility is to do good, and leave the consquences in Gods hand.
James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
If we don't do what we know is good, we are
sinning.
Jms.2:14 ¶ What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

If their faucett is broken, the pipes let go or if the car has a flat and they need to get somewhere, or whatever constitutes a need, we are to meet it.
I don't answer for you, you don't answer for me.
To do good is lawful (ok, fine, alright, acceptable) to do on the Sabbath.
Jesus said and demonstrated so.

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Examine me, O LORD, and prove me: try my reins and my heart. Ps.26:2
It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in men.Ps.118:8

I quoted your words because I had an issue with those particular words. The first time you brought up gold-plated fixtures, and later when someone quoted you, I didn’t have any problem with it, because it was clear that you were just giving an example of what you would or would not consider appropriate to do on Sabbath. But this last time you brought it up in a context that gave the impression that you believe that somewhere in this thread, somebody is arguing in favor of doing such work on the Sabbath, and that this is the whole issue in question here. This is not true by any stretch of the imagination. When I read your latest “gold-plated fixture” statement, my thoughts ran somewhat along the line of, “there he goes with that again! He is missing the whole point here!” And I must admit that I wrote my post in a state of irritation that you weren’t “getting it,” after all that had been said already. Although I went over my post and thought I had removed everything that had any accusing or demeaning tone to it, I realize that my choice of the words “Let’s get real here!” were about as insulting as any could be. And my next post was also influenced by the same spirit of irritation, particularly since you misunderstood me. For that I am sorry. I had no business allowing impatience to direct my words.

Besides this, you were right when you said you thought there must be more to my reaction than just your words about gold-plated fixtures, though I did not realize it at the time. It actually had nothing to do with the topic of this thread at all. But I am not going to say anything more about it here. If you want to know about it, you will need to contact me privately.

As to the confusion as to who I was addressing, if someone says something in one of their posts that addresses something I have said or done, and something else that has nothing to do with anything I have ever said or done, there is no way that I would ever assume that the latter portion of the post was directed at me. Even if the wording were such as to give some impression that it might be, I would ask, “were you talking to me when you said…?” before concluding that it was and reacting to that. I tend to expect other people to do the same, even though long experience should have taught me by now that most people don’t.

I had this ready to post weeks ago, but have been so busy lately that whenever I got online, I completely forgot that it was in my files waiting to be posted. Please excuse its tardiness.

------------------
The Lord is the strength of my life and my portion forever.

I quoted your words because I had an issue with those particular words. The first time you brought up gold-plated fixtures, and later when someone quoted you, I didn’t have any problem with it, because it was clear that you were just giving an example of what you would or would not consider appropriate to do on Sabbath. But this last time you brought it up
	quote: Cathy Sears ~ July 22, 2001 09:35 PM

Cathy:

Here you once again incorrectly portray the phrase as something which was repeated over and over and over.

As I pointed out in my previous comments, contrary to your statements, absolutely no one quoted me using that phrase.

The offending phrase was never used again until 2 whole months later, and it was I who used it, no one else, and I made only one brief mention of it.

So it was not repeated and repeated over and over again as you are trying to make everyone think; which is precisely why I asked you if you also going to go ballistic over the phrase "mow", "mowing", or "mowing the lawn", which has been used by more people and has been used far more than a mere two times.

As to the confusion as to who I was addressing, if someone says something in one of their posts that addresses something I have said or done, and something else that has nothing to do with anything I have ever said or done, there is no way that I would ever assume that the latter portion of the post was directed at me.
	quote: Cathy Sears ~ July 22, 2001 09:35 PM

Your entire post in question was in response to something which I, and I alone, have said. Your entire response was directed at those comments which I, and I alone, had made. All of your comments had something to do with what I, and I alone, had said.

Therefore, how could I possibly assume that you talking to someone else when it was exclusively my comments that you were responding to? To assume otherwise, as you suggest, would totally defy logic and reason.

Perhaps I should contact you privately; for you obviously have other issues if you take such great offense to my illustrating the fact that there is a distinct difference between wants and needs.

Expect an e-mail from me shortly.

-Dennis Borg

David is no longer @ MSDAOL & Cathy seems to have voluntarily left. I thought you ought to know.

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Edward F Sutton

David is no longer @ MSDAOL & Cathy seems to have voluntarily left. I thought you ought to know.
	quote: Edward F Sutton