hi,
I have something on my mind and it's been on my mind forever!
~sick people are still sick on Sabbath.
~Accidents happen on Sabbath.
So, is it ok for a nurse to work on Sabbath. Is it ok for a doctor to be on call?
Where do you draw the line?
Old people need care all the time!
I'm just confused!!
Anyone can help me?
I'll be waiting!!
-Chantale

[This message has been edited by Chantale Berube (edited August 22, 2001).]

You have just suggested the easy issue, as difficult as that may be. What about a lawyer whose client is arrested on Friday night, should he help. what about a vet, is it ok to provide medical care to animals, both pets, and animals that are the economic basis for a farmer. What about a policeman or a fireman whose purpose it is to help save lives and property? What about a utility worker that keeps the utilities flowing so you can have water and lights in your church? What about a plumber who is called out on an emergency repair, so the damage is not increased to major proportions? What about a social worker who is called out on a child protection matter? What about a judge who is called to issue a search warrant or set bond? What about a funeral director who is called to pick up a body or the only day all of the relatives can be there for the memorial service is Sabbath? What about a retailer who is called because someone needs what he sells on an emergency basis? What about a pharmacist who needs to dispense drugs for the sick person.

There is no easy answer that fits all situations. Don't look for a rule that makes your decision not your decision, but a mere "follow a rule" action. The principle is one of those that Christ addressed many times in His ministry while on earth. Sabbath was a day of rules. He has tried to show that it is a day of principle, the principle of love. Not love used as an excuse to do what we want to do, but to show true Christian love. It is my opinion that what one person does on Sabbath may be an act that is counted as sin, while someone else performing the same act may not be performing an act of sin. Think that one through if you care to! It comes down to how you define sin, doesn't it?

The best answer is to look at the weight of inspired evidence.

Do you have the Online Bible & EGW CD Rom on your computer ?

Then all is needed is to give references, otherwise Scripture texts, passages, quotes, and passages, articles could potentially need posting.

Spalding Megan Collection would be a good place to start. These issues over Sabbath duty and Dr's & nurses, and patient care had to be defined and worked with during EGW's active life time and so generated the need for written SOP materials as an adjunct to Scriptural understanding.

I have and my fellow SDA hospital workers have had to address these issues. Please fill me in on details of your Scriptural & SOP resources, so I can better attempt to offer evidence & references to weigh regarding this issue.

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Edward F Sutton

Edward,
Hi,
i have no CD rom or online bible.. i have nothing like that.. i do have EGW's books though and of course i have bibles. But nohting on my computor..

Chantale Berube

Hello...You do not have to have the CD Rom to access the Spirit of Prophecy...it is very easy to use online. Here is the URL to the site:

http://www.whiteestate.org/

On the left of the screen about half way down you will find a link "Search the Writings" Very easy to use..

Here are a few online Bible URLS. Just add to your favories and you will always have them:
http://bible.crosswalk.com/
http://bible.gospelcom.net/
http://www.audio-bible.com/bible/bible.html

In The Blessed Hope

Avalee

[This message has been edited by Avalee (edited August 24, 2001).]

Chantale,

The Sabbath in Our Sanitariums [TESTIMONIES FOR THE CHURCH, VOL. 7, PP. 104-109 (1902).]
{CH 234.1 - 238.2}

Duties and Privileges of Sanitarium Workers [TESTIMONIES FOR THE CHURCH, VOL. 4, PP. 554-562 (1881).] {{CH 403.3 - 404.1}

{CH 490.3}CH= Councils on Health

{CT 472.2}

{MM 214.2 - MM 215.2}MM= Medical Ministry

{MM 216.2}

{4T 539.3}

{12MR 134.2}

{13MR 320.3}

MR No. 1142 - Physicians Are Reformers and Are to Follow Christ's Example; The Sabbath a Sign; The Importance Of Attention to Little Things

(Written April 22, 1899, at Hamilton, Newcastle, N.S.W.) {15MR 29.1}

{21MR 288.2 - 21MR 288.4 }

{KC 43.4}KC = Kress Collection

{KC 60.4}

{1T 531 - 1T 533}

I have tried to find references, I used search words "physicians Sabbath". I also searched Nurse* Sabbath & found no new references on the topic.

All these things speak of SDA Institutions & pre-supposes institutional reverence for the Sabbath.

Such is often not the case for an SDA working in other institutions. I have been forced out of work & had to give up employment over Sabbath issues. I became a traveler & had to have contracts drawn up that protected Sabbatizing for me. Even did so for present non traveling job.

Sabbath in medical work among our people is difficult, but well neigh impossible under usual circumstances outside our people or where Sabbath is not respected by our own management. Or the institution is managed & staffed predominatly non SDA.

How can I help, I have so often been where you are now, I ache for your situation.

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Edward F Sutton

[This message has been edited by Edward F Sutton (edited August 26, 2001).]

Chantale, you can get a free Bible program called Online Bible here. You download and install it. I've been using it for years and have found it very helpful. It has the KJV and some other versions that are free, along with concordances, books (like Pilgrim's Progress), commentaries, etc. You can also download a manual. Some of the Bible versions cost, but you don't have to get them. It will take a little while to download everything you may want, but it's worth it.

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Jesus is the joy of living
_________________________

Linda

[This message has been edited by Linda Sutton (edited August 25, 2001).]

When I was a healthcare traveling subcontractor marketed to hospitals by agencies, I discovered this simple fact.

If it's not in a written signed binding contract, it doesn't exist & any verbal agreement is unenforceable. Anyone can say so and so, but few in an institution can legally in a binding way speak for an institution or company.

Unless it's a written binding agreement, they can promise you anything & the problems are yours from then on . They have no vested intrest in Sabbath keeping, but you do. They look at the monatary bottom line & staff morale and complaints & management of those complaints. Sabbath sacredness barely registers if at all & the mindset is "it's a personal preference not a real need." They do not understand the nature & commitment of Sabbathkeeping.

What helped me in those situations & on my present employee status, is a negotiated written mutually signed professionally drawn up contract. It sets mutually binding terms and benefits to both parties.

While that helps me, it does not apply to patient care needs for the general patient care workforce. I am currently in a niche position in a Sleep Lab. An MD is needed to be available for patient care and carries a beeper if they are oncall. Depending upon the group they are in is how their scedule is set and their support system (partnership) covers. No MD with any experience allows themselves to keep getting dumped on till they burn out if it can be helped. Continual Sabbath work even in patient care is a rapid spiritual burnout factor. Being careful to plan ahead & scedule the pipeline full enough of electives to justify freetime covering Sabbath, or emergencies only that are non electives, is a helpful plan to follow.

Planning in a professional manner to keep Sabbath and prepare for contingencies is the mark of good management of an MD's practice from an SDA or non SDA Sabbath keeper standpoint. As far as possible, set the direction & tone & terms to be what is needed before hand and build into the management of the practice contingency coverage that is appropriate for both Sabbath keeping according to Inspiration and patient care needs.

(assuming employment in a non Sabbatarian Institution)
As an SDA employee, on a shift that rotates across Sabbath hours, you need to build into your thinking and job search and working conditions proactive plans to keep Sabbath and contingencies to offer that are valuable to employers as leverage.

The best time is before hire, while you have maximum leverage. Find out what your value to the Institution is & their value to you. Learn what their options are and what yours are. In business, business people create the rules as needed, and negotiate them into a contract and once agreed upon & signed it becomes the new operating enviroment of the business. As far as possible make your Sabbathkeeping a win - win for yourself and the Institution. Pray specifically for God to send you to His non SDa children who can legally help you under your circumstances & send His angels to give you favor in their eyes. Motivate and enlighten them to create a protected open way for your Sabbathkeeping that is as win - win as possible.

Do not be afraid to walkout of a business relationship that will not allow you to keep Sabbath. Do it professionally, wisely, kindly, but firmly and stay consistant.

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Edward F Sutton

My thanks to Wedntgp for setting the stage. Sabbath keeping under workday employment is no longer guarded by Mom and Dad, you are in the world and now have to decide which world you will be of, while you live here. You may even be responsible for a family of your own with no one to make your decisions for you.

Situations are real, you have to decide. Why you decide is the basis of how you go to what you decide.

There are more than one kind of professed Christians be they Sabbathkeepers or not .

They will offer different advise based upon their views of who sets the terms of right and wrong. In order to evaluate what is offered you more accurately, learn which group is speaking. Also more importantly how do you view things and why, what group are you in. When people feel it is worth it, they decide to change groups till they get to one they decide is worth never changing from.

A. Those who view Inspiration as absolutes in it’s inspired statements and mandates and conditions, unchangeable by circumstances. Anything not expressly spoken of by name in Inspiration is ignored .

B. Those who view Inspiration as relative in it’s statements and mandates and conditions, changeable by circumstances and not always broad enough to foresee and cover extenuating circumstances and emergencies in it’s boundaries, situation ethics and rationalization replace fixed absolutes .

C. Those who view Inspiration as absolutes in it’s inspired statements and mandates and conditions, unchangeable by circumstances and broad enough to foresee and cover extenuating circumstances and emergencies in it’s boundaries. Principles exist to guide people in new situations and those principles do not negate or undo the binding claims of the Inspired rules. The principles allow ministering to need within the rules without getting overpowered by circumstances.

D. Those who do nothing or let circumstances take them with the flow, and talk themselves into it during the events or later.

How does a lawyer, a vet, a farmer, a policeman, a fireman, a utility worker, a social worker, a judge, a funeral director, a retailer, a pharmacist; have their business or profession setup to keep Sabbath and deal with contingencies that will come up. We live in a non Sabbatarian society and these things happen. How we deal with them depends upon our view points and the reasons why we have faith.

These people would all need to be Sabbatarians in-order for the questions of what and when....on Sabbath to matter to them. Which group of Sabbatarian thought they were in (group A or B or C or D ) would strongly color their responses.

Now for the extra points & bonus question.

quote:

---

“ It is my opinion that what one person does on Sabbath may be an act that is counted as sin, while someone else performing the same act may not be performing an act of sin.”

---

It is indeed true that in the O.T. Sanctuary service priests slaughtered & butchered lots of animals on Sabbath & were blameless. The shewbread was cooked upon Sabbath and they were blameless. With all the blood & animal insides & burning & smoke & all it got more messy than you expect church to be today & on Sabbath too boot.

Today SDA pastors have it physically easier to conduct church on Sabbath. If they worked in a secular job upon Sabbath, they would be breaking it. However they prepare to earnestly work in full sight of the congregation on Sabbath. What is it that they do that fulfills the Sabbath under their situations ?

Here is a basic principle of Sabbath keeping & Sabbath breaking .

“Heaven's work never ceases for a moment, and men should never rest from doing good. The Sabbath law forbids labor on the sanctified rest-day of the Lord. The toil that gains a livelihood must cease; no labor for worldly pleasure or profit is lawful upon the Lord's day; but the work of Christ in healing the sick did honor to the holy Sabbath. Jesus claimed equal rights with God in doing a work equally sacred and of the same character with that which engaged his Father in Heaven. But the Pharisees were still more incensed, because he had not only broken the law, according to their understanding, but added to this offense the heinous sin of declaring himself equal with God. Nothing but the interference of the people prevented the Jewish authorities from slaying him on the spot. "Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do; for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth; and he will show him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will." {2SP 164.2}

Here Jesus elevated himself to his true station before the Jews, and declared himself to be the the Son of God. He then, in mild and dignified language, instructed them regarding the Sabbath. He told them that the rest-day which Jehovah had sanctified and set apart for a special purpose, after he had completed the work of creation, was not intended to be a period of useless inactivity. As God ceased his labor of creating, and rested upon that day and blessed it, so man was to leave the occupation of his daily life, and devote those sacred hours to healthful rest, to worship, and to holy deeds. {2SP 165.1}
*****************************

At one point I was in another state on a work contract. I don’t remember how I met the person, but he was there. He was discharged from ER with a casted or bandaged ankle & foot he could not walk on. I made sure he got crutches. He had no ride home & was in lots of pain. It was Sabbath and he had a prescription for pain meds & no money. A real moral dilemma if you believe in moral dilemma’s. I saw that I was the only one around to help. His need was not phoney, it was quite real.

I asked God to help me know what would He do if He was in my shoes. It felt very uncomfortable, the idea of buying and selling on Sabbath, and so did his foot & ankle. The snow was not too deep to drive in, down Pershing Ave in Cheyenne Wyoming that winter day so the crutches would work .

What do you think I did ? Not what you hope I did, what you think I did; and tell why you think so.

(A.)ultra beliver....(B.)rationalizing beliver
(C.)rational beliver(D.)Turn away beliver

Sorry no lifelines available & only Regis offers $$$$$$.

This is about being of the mind-set of A, B, C, or D and thinking life directions through before you get there.

(A.) (B.) (C.) (D.)
Is that your final answer ????????

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Edward F Sutton

[This message has been edited by Edward F Sutton (edited August 26, 2001).]

Next question:

What about wages earned by professed Sabbathkeeping MD's & Nurses & hospital workers on unavoidable Sabbath duty ? Either time clock or on salary is in operation isn't it? Or is it ?

What does Inspiration say specifically & in context?

What group am I in & why I stay there determines my reaction to what Inspiration says.

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Edward F Sutton