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Clapping in church #34000
07/20/04 09:46 PM
07/20/04 09:46 PM
P
Paul  Offline OP
Posting New Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 49
IL.
Clapping in church Part 1
Being an Adventist in the suburban Chicago area I have noticed an interesting phenomenon. Many churches in North America have trouble with the “A word”. By the “A word”, I mean “AMEN”. There are many other churches that do not have this problem. Most black churches for instance are very vocal with their AMENs. As you can probably guess, the churches I am referring to are mostly white, upper middle class suburban churches. Although the congregations are nice and friendly, they tend to be a little more reserved and self conscious of their involvement in the pews.

Every congregation has its own personality, and some are quieter than others. It is almost impossible to get a hearty “AMEN” out of many congregations today without someone at the podium actually goading it out of them like a voice teacher. However, some church members seem to have found an answer to this dilemma. Instead of allowing an awkward silence after a musical selection, or a presentation of some sort, they have begun to Clap. Although it has not always been acceptable to clap in an Adventist church, it seems they feel the need for some sort of appropriate response to what is happening on the platform, and the occasional “AMEN” that is heard, is often meek and timid. Many do not want to utter an AMEN if they fear that they will be the only voice in church. That is understandable.

I sat through one particular sermon where this solution was advocated and encouraged. The speaker explained to us that in bible times, clapping, and shouting, singing and dancing, and musical instruments of all kinds were used to praise God. He cited Psalm 47:1, which says; “O clap your hands, all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of triumph.” He reminded us, that we Adventists had become a little narrow minded, and had lost sight of true biblical worship. We were being wooden, and not joyous. An illustration was made of how clapping could be done in a worship setting, in response to words of praise to God. It was suggested that many Adventists were “appendagely challenged,” and even the reluctant were invited to join in. It all seemed very new, and fresh, and liberating. And now, with the whole congregation clapping on cue with the speaker on the podium, it was like we had permission from the pastoral staff of the church, that it was OK. It was OK to clap, as long as we were doing it for the right reasons. And with the sound of the clapping reverberating throughout the church, along with quiet laughs of assent and relief, one could easily feel quite anti-social for not joining in. I had to admit that I winced when my wife tried to explain to one of our children that we don’t clap in church, while everyone was doing just that.

It took a while for me to digest all of that. I spoke with some fellow believers about it, and we had to admit that at one time even the hymns of the late 20th century were new, and that everything must change with the times, including the church. I decided to do a study on the subject of clapping. The bible says that “They… searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” (Acts 17:11).

My search needed to answer a few questions; Why is it that conservative Adventists do not condone clapping in church? Was there a good reason for it? Is there a good reason to dismiss it as old fashioned? I knew I would not find a cut and dry easy answer to this in the bible, because there were no churches then. So I started with E.G. White. She never mentioned clapping, but she did speak out against applause. The pastor who spoke on this subject had said that, biblical clapping was not used as applause, but as affirmation of praise. But if I were a non-SDA visitor, or an unbeliever, would I know the difference? I could not think of any time when I had heard of people clapping after a sermon, or after a prayer, or scripture reading. It was only done after a musical selection, or when someone was being recognized for service of some sort.

It seemed to me that instead of focusing on the “appendagely challenged” condition of our church, the pastor would have done better if he had explained why it was that historically, Adventists did not clap in church, and if those reasons were at fault, address them. I found the following reasons in the Spirit of Prophecy;

1. Winning applause was not essential to gospel work (MH 36)
2. Christ did not seek applause, and was not elated by it. (DA 261, 330; MH 32, 197; 3T 217; ML 181; 1SM 260)
3. Applause was spiritually dangerous. (3T 185-6; 1TT 321)
4. Ministers should work without the excitement of applause and should labor uncontaminated by it. (ibid)
5. The stimulation of applause is like that of wine. (ibid)
6. We should not seek applause. (4T 568; CH 384)

There were a few more entries on the subject, but not one was positive. So, it seems like there are some good reasons. But what if a person wants their evidence from the bible alone? Maybe not all are swayed by E.G.W. After all, she was writing a century or more ago. Could it be that we were taking her out of context? That seems to be a fair question. So I began looking at the bible more closely.
(Continued in Part 2)

[ July 20, 2004, 09:42 PM: Message edited by: Paul ]

Re: Clapping in church #34001
07/20/04 09:47 PM
07/20/04 09:47 PM
P
Paul  Offline OP
Posting New Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 49
IL.
(Clapping in church Part 2)
I was surprised to find only a few texts relating to clapping, but there seemed to be a pattern. The text that our minister gave during his sermon was Psalm 47:1 “O clap your hands, all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of triumph.” It had something in common with some other parts of scripture; they all described scenes of triumphing and rejoicing over a victory or a fallen enemy. In the case of Psalm 47, it is God who triumphs and “reigns over the nations;” Verse 8. He is described as going “up with a shout, The Lord with the sound of a trumpet.” Verse 5.
Another verse spoke in a similar way, except this time it was the enemies of Israel who were rejoicing;
For thus saith the Lord God; BECAUSE THOU HAST CLAPPED THINE HANDS, and stamped with the feet, and rejoiced in heart with all thy despite against the land of Israel; Ezekiel.25:6
The Ammonites are judged by God for TRIUMPHING over fallen Israel.
Jeremiah lamented the rejoicing of gentile nations over Israel’s fall from grace;
All that pass by CLAP THEIR HANDS AT THEE; they hiss and wag their head at the daughter of Jerusalem, saying, Is this the city that men call The perfection of beauty, The joy of the whole earth? Lamentations 2:15
Those that passed by were TRIUMPHING over the defeat of Jerusalem.
Likewise, Nahum reports the rejoicing over Nineveh, by its foes;
Nothing can heal your wound; your injury is fatal. Everyone who hears the news about you CLAPS HIS HANDS AT YOUR FALL, for who has not felt your endless cruelty? Nahum 3:19
It is obvious that clapping was a cultural expression of triumphing over and mocking an enemy.
Clapping was also done at the anointing of king Joash, which was accomplished successfully at great peril;
And he brought forth the kings son, and put the crown upon him, and gave him the testimony; and they made him king, and anointed him; AND THEY CLAPPED THEIR HANDS, and said, God save the king... And when she (Athaliah) looked, behold, the king stood by a pillar, as the manner was, and the princes and the trumpeters by the king, and all the people of the land REJOICED, and blew with trumpets: and Athaliah rent her clothes, and cried, Treason, Treason. 2 Kings 11:12, 14
The handclapping and the blowing of the trumpets were to show THAT ATHALIAH HAD BEEN TRIUMPHED over and would die.
In each of these scripture texts and even in God’s triumph over the nations in Psalm 47:1, worship was not the motivating factor for the clapping, victory was. The psalmist links the clapping with the sounding of trumpets when he saw that God would ascend to His holy mountain and temple. This was not an act of congregational worship on a typical Sabbath. The trumpets were sounded in Israel either at times of war, or at times of solemn assembly, times that prefigured in type, the realities of future triumphs by God over the devil and over sin. Such events as; the Day of Atonement, certain feast days and the anointing of kings. There is no evidence that the trumpets were used in the weekly Sabbaths, when even the sacrificial offerings were similar to the weekday offerings.
So, if clapping was used in ancient Palestine as a victory celebration, how can we use biblical examples in our day and age? Although, we often do applaud the fall of those we oppose, it is not necessarily a cultural thing to express that with clapping and stamping our feet. When we clap after a musical selection in church, are we in effect “celebrating a victory” over something? When we honor a member for service in the church, and the congregation responds with clapping, are we “triumphing” over anything? If so, we are triumphing in a performance, and we are elevating the member above others. No, today clapping is meant primarily as applause, and one would be hard pressed to find a way to use clapping in a biblical way at church. If we can’t find a cut and dry answer from the bible on current issues such as applause, I believe that we would be wise to respect the wisdom of someone who has gone before us, and who has received light on this subject. Mrs. White spoke out against applause, but the bible didn’t. Many people do not see this as a big deal. Why should we listen to Mrs. White? I think the answer can be found in the story of the Recabites in the book of Jeremiah chapter 35.
In the story, the Recabites were told by their father that they should not drink wine, build houses or plant vineyards. There was no scripture, or no direct “Thus saith the Lord” telling them not to do those things, only the admonition of their father. Yet God blessed them for obeying the voice of their father. Mrs. White was blessed by God and given charge over the infant and fledgling SDA church. If we were told by her that a certain act is wrong, we should give her words as much respect as the Recabites gave their father. Because it was God who used her to give us so much of what we have today. In effect she can be said to be the “mother” of our corporate church, and I believe that we ignore her words at our own risk.
I thought about making a point in the church where I had heard the above mentioned sermon. I could illustrate an absurdity by being absurd. Maybe after the next sermon I hear, or after the next prayer or scripture verse, I would clap. That would make my point. However, it would defeat the purpose of my point, which is that when we are worshipping God, we should do so with the utmost respect. So instead of clapping inappropriately, I think that after a good musical selection, I will just give a loud, hearty and appropriate; “AMEN!!!”
Try it in your church this week. It could be contagious, and others might just follow your lead.

[ July 20, 2004, 09:45 PM: Message edited by: Paul ]

Re: Clapping in church #34002
07/21/04 12:11 AM
07/21/04 12:11 AM
D
danielw  Offline
Full Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 265
Japan
Very interesting study Paul-san. Here in Japan, many people say "Amen" during people's prayers, at appropriate pauses. I really, really like that, and naturally use it even when i go back to the States, but it seems to bother people so i try to remember where i am and not do it so much when back that way.

Re: Clapping in church #34003
07/21/04 01:45 AM
07/21/04 01:45 AM
Shelley  Offline
Posting New Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 38
Australia
Hi Paul,

A big Amen to what you have written. [Big Grin] I came from a Baptist church into the Adventist churh and found the no clapping thing really uncomfortable. However, after reading your forum message, I have a greater understanding of the issue and don't feel uncomfortable about it anymore. Would it be ok for me to copy your information and share it with others?

Shelley [Smile]

Re: Clapping in church #34004
07/21/04 02:57 AM
07/21/04 02:57 AM
P
Paul  Offline OP
Posting New Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 49
IL.
Thank you Shelly, of course you can use the post for reference. Feel free to cut and paste if you like. It is an article that I wrote for the Review, but it was not accepted (too doctrinal, they said). I think it was rejected because they had already done an article (which I stumbled upon in a back issue) that basically supported clapping and used the same verse (Psalm 47:1) to justify it, just as the minister in my post had done. But I think they only want articles from readers about Christian life and experiences, and they leave the doctrinal issues to their regular writers. Too bad, because I think my piece was more biblically supported than theirs, but maybe I'm missing something. [Reading]

So instead of letting it go to waste, I thought I would post it here, and I am happy that someone found it helpful. [Thank You]

Re: Clapping in church #34005
07/21/04 02:37 PM
07/21/04 02:37 PM
Shelley  Offline
Posting New Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 38
Australia
Hi Paul,

I discussed your information with a couple of people and there appears to be some confusion about whether clapping is always associated with evil. The people in your topic who were clapping, were rejoicing in evil, clapping can thus be seen an act of rejoicing. We are asked to rejoice in the lord. If clapping is an act of rejoicing then we should be able to clap.

The EGW statement "We should not seek applause" Suggests that individuals should not seek approval or praise for themselves. It does not, however, suggest that we should not applaud or praise what is good. I think, we all need to ask ourselves, If we feel like applauding, why we are applauding and who are we giving our praises to.

Coming from a rowdy Baptist church, I am aware that applauding, shouting, and other strange stuff that goes on in different denominations, can be over the top.

However, if having asked myself, whom am I applauding, and my applause or praise is going to God, then my conscience will be clear.

[Big Grin] Shelley

Re: Clapping in church #34006
07/21/04 09:20 PM
07/21/04 09:20 PM
P
Paul  Offline OP
Posting New Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 49
IL.
Clapping is not always associated with evil, Shelly. In Psalm 47:1, God's people are clapping.

We cannot exactly put up "No Clapping" signs in church. There will always be people who see things differently. However, it was my purpose to demonstrate the lack of biblical support for the justification being used in favor of it. People are using bible texts out of context in order to prove that clapping during worship has a biblical origin, when it doesn't.

A person can be genuinely applauding spiritual things. But ask yourself this: The next time people applaud after special music, how many of them are applauding the musician, and how many are "affirming praise?" And how does the musician and the congregation know the difference? E.G. White discouraged applause because it could inflate the egos of singers, musicians and preachers. How are they to differentiate between applause and affirmation? Many times a talented singer will get a huge applause, while a not so great singer will get nothing, even though their message is the same, and both of their hearts are in the right place. Does God accept one more than the other?

But still, let each be convinced in his or her own heart. I just wanted to show the shaky ground that this justification is built upon.

P.S., if clapping was used as you suggest, we would be doing it after a sermon or a prayer as well.

Re: Clapping in church #34007
07/22/04 08:38 AM
07/22/04 08:38 AM
Shelley  Offline
Posting New Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 38
Australia
But still, let each be convinced in his or her own heart.

In regard to how others react to clapping, we are not responsible for how they choose to react to it.

Some times sermons and prayers are not all that inspiring. I guess what I am saying is that those moments where you know that you have been blessed, you may want to clap or say a loud amen. And not everyone will have been blessed in the same way. We are all at different stages of our journey.

I get your point though. It is a difficult one.

[Smile] Shelley

Re: Clapping in church #34008
07/22/04 01:30 PM
07/22/04 01:30 PM
John H.  Offline
Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 2,150
North Carolina, USA
Paul, there are other places where articles can be published besides the Review, y'know. Try Adventists Affirm, or Our Firm Foundation.

Re: Clapping in church #34009
07/22/04 01:45 PM
07/22/04 01:45 PM
P
Paul  Offline OP
Posting New Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 49
IL.
I agree, it is difficult. [Confused]

I actually don't have a problem with someone clapping in church, because it is a matter of personal growth. But when some of our pastors begin encouraging it and teaching that it's the right thing to do; and when they criticize a doctrine that has been well established in the Spirit of Prophecy, all the while twisting scripture to "prove" their point; then I think the record needs to be set straight.

Whether or not you think clapping is harmless; the next time someone tells you that Psalm 47:1 "proves" that clapping during worship has a biblical origin, you can tell them the truth about how clapping was used in the bible. Just get a concordance and look up "clap," "clapping," "clapped..." and compare the context of its usage. [Reading]

You have an open mind, keep studying.

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