I'm going to disagree with Goldstein here, because he's being superficial as usual. Practical godliness is the outcome of the Adventist system of beliefs: so our aim of practical godliness such as Jesus supplies in all its glorious perfection makes us Adventists.

Goldstein has watered down the doctrines himself, not explaining JBF as clearly as necessary - as Ps. Kirkpatrick does, or santification not being an indispensible elements of the gospel, and not supported the sanctuary cleansing judgement in its full, practical, spiritual context for us. He's not preaching the distinctive doctrines as much as he's promoting them.

Are our journals supplying the clarity and strength of message and practical belief we stand for? - just incessantly dealing in spiritual milk?
With less encouragement & nurture coming at us than we need, no wonder minimal attitudes to Adventist identity become an ever present problem.

I would have to agree with the general thrust of the article, even if I don't agree with the author's theology, because the contact I have had with what would be called a 'cultural adventist' has not shown me that they do much more than claim the name -much like some church of England attendees here in england- therefore a 'cultural adventist' is no adventist at all! For as we all agree, I'm sure, just being a member or owning the church name won't save us.

Let's study and make sure that we don't hold any of the 'new' or 'latest' watered down doctrines.

Yes, I was failed to mention when disagreeing with Goldstein personally that I could agree with his article. Cliff has managed to water down significant doctrines in his Review column so he has to answer his own question when challenging those who do the same. But then, so do we all.

Back in 1999 at the campmeeting in Johannesburg, in the packed-out church/theatre of the SDA high school, Sedaven, the main speaker, Morris Venden, gave a list of contrasts between social and spiritual Adventists, drawn from his own observations. (I still have quiet reservations about the saved in sin concession implied by his relationship theology - a theology which is increasingly being promoted, globally). He had 2 lists of ten points, but I failed to take a copy from him afterwards.

About the only social point I recall is habitually not mentioning the name of Jesus in conversation. But socialites are socialites....On the spiritual list the name of Jesus was "mentioned".

What was really noticeable - which I have remembered, was that the tension in the air among the 500 odd Adventists present palpably built up from half way through the first list till the very end of the second list: everyone recognised him or herself as a socialite! The last item on the second list released the tension as an audible but momentary collective breathing out- that item was: they go to campmeeting.

From my personal observations we members generally are lulled into being cultural Adventists by a lack of instruction in the spiritual truths of the fundamental beliefs from the pulpit or afternoon programmes, or prayer meetings or anything, unless our personal devotions help out enough. My spiritual awareness and experience has come by God providentially leading me to particular books which challenged laity and pastors alike to show the true size of God's grace and righteousness.

There are cultural Adventists, who truly give the church a bad image and don't deserve the name from our perspective, and there are default cultural Adventists who are such by accident and not knowing it. Both need intercessary prayer as a group.

[ December 20, 2005, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: Colin ]

What about when people are not interested in coming to afternoon or midweek things such as prayergroup or biblestudy?

/Thomas

Perhaps the no-showers are simply Laodicean: not finding the time, not making the time, not having the energy anymore to find or make the time, because they're not fired up mentally about the message anymore, or whatever reason they've come up with. Which is most of us really....

Aren't 95% of us cultural Adventists then?

So, that divine experience - walking with the Spirit - solves it? The worship debate - this forum's theme - is settled, in my understanding, by discovering God's own style of music. No 'traditionalists' object to that notion, but the 'contemporary' camp doesn't want to know what that answer looks like or whether it can be found. But, what else is our divine experience meant to have for us in selecting worship methods?

Goldstein's appeal for thorough study is what we can do, even if he doesn't stick to the proper conclusions when he studies.

Or maybe they have little children and feel that their priority is with them, not at a mid week church service. We should never judge until we've walked a mile in anothers shoes.

Redfog

Oh sorry, for those not in the US a "mile" is a measure of distance

Redfog

From my experience, most Adventists are "cultural Adventists" since very few actually know or understand what they believe, let alone the implications of those beliefs. Most are Adventists because they were born Adventist or were convinced with a superficial understanding. (This applies to most Christians, not just Adventist.)

Regardless, the greater question would be "Are we Christian; Do we understand Christian doctrine and theology; Do we know Christ? It is this that unites Christians throughout the world, regardless of denominational divisions (which...divide)

Even the "sabbath morning service" spends as little time as possible in Bible study. The faithfull arrive somewhere around 9:00 to 9:30 and leave a bit after 12:00, depending on how long-winded the speaker is. During those [almost] 3 hours they spend 30 to 40 minutes on "lesson study".

How cultural were Christ's disciples before His resurrection, after His resurrection, and finally after the Day of Pentecost?

Good point Daryl, we all need a pentecost experience of our own.

/Thomas

I think nowadays that we are 'culturally' christians, which makes it more difficult for any of us to be 'fired up' for Christ and if we are we are labled as freaks or fanatics. It is easier to go with the flow than to be different.

How many of us would stand if persecution were to break today?

How many of our so called 'cultural' adventsts would come out strong in such situations?

Can we really know what is going on in the minds of others?

What will really bring us out of the laodicean condition? Is not the Laodicean condition at least included if not actually covering the whole issue of 'cultural adventism?