An EGW quote that was provided on another topic in this forum resulted in the creation of this topic.

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"Tea, coffee, tobacco, and alcohol we must present as sinful indulgences. We cannot place on the same ground, meat, eggs, butter, cheese and such articles placed upon the table. These are not to be borne in front, as the burden of our work. The former -- tea, coffee, tobacco, beer, wine, and all spirituous liquors -- are not to be taken moderately, but discarded. The poisonous narcotics are not to be treated in the same way as the subject of eggs, butter, and cheese. In the beginning animal food was not designed to be the diet of man. We have every evidence that the flesh of dead animals is dangerous because of disease that is fast becoming universal, because of the curse resting more heavily in consequence of the habits and crimes of man. We are to present the truth. We are to be guarded how to use reason and select those articles of food that will make the very best blood and keep the blood in an unfevered condition." -- MS 5, 1881. {2MR 107.2}

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What about social drinking? In light of the above quote, social drinking is obviously a sinful indulgence.

Yes, social drinking is definitely wrong.

Somewhere i remember reading where tea and coffee cannot be put on the same level as alcohol and tobacco. Something to the effect that while tea and coffee are bad for the system, they do have some healthful properties. In contrast, we should urge everyone to give up alcohol and tobacco as soon as possible, and that no one can even be baptised while partaking of these soul-destroying substances.

But many SDa's believe it is okay for an occasional social drink. I have a family member who was raised an SDA and still attends church in good standing who believes it is okay to socially drink...so how do we convince them otherwise?

You probably can't, since it appears he is getting away with it in his illusionary religion. If you have faced him about it with candor and love, than prayer is all you have left. Do not resort to "righteous" gossip, or backbiting.
The Lord will pull the rug out from under him, as He always does to hypocrites or the self-willed.

Anyone can be baptized. I don;t buy into the dynamics of complicating a person who wants to be saved by telling them 'You got to get better first'. Can you imagine of that person were to die and you told them that they couldn't be baptized because they were still smoking.. Talk about blood on your hands.

Why is it so difficult to get baptized today compared to the times of Jesus and the early church. The Jailer asked 'What must I do to be saved'

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Acts 16:30
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed [their] stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

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I don't see anywhere 'Well first lets take an inventory of your bad habits' followed by a 'After you have quit these bad habits then you may be baptized'. Maybe that's why so many people were converted and today its a bunch of red tape.. I am sure glad my pastor did not pull that line on me when I was still smoking and doing who knows what, and most importantly amid all that chaos God reached out and said 'You need to choose who you will serve', so I decided to get baptized because my heart was being led by the Holy Spirit to serve Christ and change, and I did AFTER baptism.. not before.

God Bless,
Will

On the other side of that question, Will, in Acts 2:38 Peter said,

"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Doesn't repenting involve turning away from bad habits?

You would repent from your sins. I sometimes have a bad habit of eating with my mouth open, and have an uncontrollable bad habit of drooling all over my pillow, so bad habits can range from the smallest thing to something perhaps psychological such as cleptomania. I didn't think smoking was a "sin", and I associated sin with things like wanting to steal, murder, things like that you know what's outlined in the 10 commandments.. Still doesn't negate the fact of denying someone the chance to be born again.

For myself I knew that my life had to change, so I gave my life to Christ. How many people are turned away because 'men' think that they cannot approach the Lord in their curent condition will have to be answered for on judgment day.

God Bless,
Will

Well okay, then let's ask this: Are things like smoking and drinking just 'bad habits', or are they sins?

Good question John. I don't know if smoking is a sin or drinking is a sin. I do know that both are bad for you health wise, and you shouldn't do it since the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit.

I am trying to think of verses that condemn these acts, so the first things that come to mind are about presenting your bodies as a living sacrifice to God while it does not condemn these acts God does tell us to present ourselves as living sacrifices.

God Bless,
Will

If you will re-read Daryl's first post, the very first sentence cannot be ignored. It states plainly these things are "sinful" indulgences.

When someone is convicted of the truth of the Bible and has a desire to join by baptism, these "sinful" things must be put away. It isn't easy and we need to do what we can to help these people but it should be done before baptism.

Many times my husband and I have taken in those who want to quit smoking. My husband has helped them (all were men) by giving them hydrotherapy treatments along with other helpful things such as a good diet, etc. Within seven days they were free of the nicotine in their systems.

[ June 11, 2004, 11:44 PM: Message edited by: debbie ]

That is why I would like to see some scripture regarding this. You can't convict someone of Biblical truth by using Sister White's writings only and then tell them its in the Bible. That would be like me going to feed the homless and telling them "Ellen White says not to use tobacco"... They would look at me like some nutbar, but if you can show people from the Bible then that would be a different story.By the way I don't see Ellen White being taught or promoted as sola scrptura at a baptism class. Jesus came to call the sinners to repentance, not call sinners to get cleaned sit in a baptism class for a few weeks, then maybe clean themselves up and see Him.. Ridiculous really.

God Bless,
Will

-Bravo Will!
-To take it a step further, I do not believe that Ellen White would want us making her writtings into such a "religious" rite of passage. YES her inspired writtings are fit for council and guidance BUT too many times we (SDA's) take all of her writtings (inspired and not) as gospel.
-Let us understand by SCRIPTURE, and with the use of EGW's, documented inspired, writings as council.

This problem with baptism/tobacco hit me very squarely between the eyes 3 years ago. Two homeless men i was leading had come near the point of decision for Christ. The only thing keeping them from being baptised was tobacco. They had quite a good knowledge of the Bible, and assented to its principles, and agreed that Jesus Christ was the Saviour (but a little weak on the last one).

I told them that nothing should stand between them and God. They had to give all to the Lord. To be baptised they had to:
1. Repent
2. Confess their faith
3. Follow Christ
Both of them said, without my prodding, that they could not give up tobacco. Some church members at the time who still had any love for the homeless said i was being too harsh by saying they were not ready for baptism because they were using tobacco, so i studied this topic thoroughly. Here are some quotes i found:
1. The Gospel of Health, March 1, 1898:

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"Shall those who have had more opportunities and much precious light, who enjoy the advantages of education, make the plea that they cannot cut away from unhealthful practises? Why do not those who have excellent reasoning powers reason from cause to effect? Why do they not advocate reform by planting their feet firmly on principle, determined not to take alcoholic drink or use tobacco? They are poisons, and their use is a violation of God's law.

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2. Second Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, January 25, 1881:

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Men professing godliness offer their bodies upon Satan's altar, and burn the incense of tobacco to his Satanic majesty. Does this statement seem severe? The offering must be presented to some deity. As God is pure and holy, and will accept nothing defiling its character, he refuses this expensive, filthy, and unholy sacrifice; therefore we conclude that Satan is the one who claims the honor.

Jesus died to rescue man from the grasp of Satan. He came to set us free by the blood of his atoning sacrifice. The man who has become the property of Jesus Christ, and whose body is the temple of the Holy Ghost, will not be enslaved by the pernicious habit of tobacco-using. His powers belong to Christ, who has bought him with the price of blood. His property is the Lord's. How, then, can he be guiltless in expending every day the Lord's intrusted capital to gratify an appetite which has no foundation in nature?

...In the indulgence of hurtful lusts, professed Christians are daily enfeebling their powers, making it impossible to glorify God.

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3. 1 Thessalonians 5:23:

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"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit, and soul, and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

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I tried to find ways to get them to quit. They didn't, and one of them got quite anti-Bible later that year, and the other is still living the lifestyle he wishes. One of the homeless men who has studied the Bible a lot with me quit tho, at the age of 69! Praise God. I know God is leading him, but the seed seems to get picked off in the air by Satan before it ever hits the ground in his case. Please breathe a prayer for him.

Christ said He would never reject anyone who came to Him:

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John 6;37
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

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At least there is an example of the thief on the cross who believed in Christ and was saved.

God Bless,
Will

Daniel Richards: please answer this question...which of Ellen Whites writings are inspirational and which are not?

And of those that are, do you feel they are less inspired than the prophets writings in the Bible?

What ever happened to the lesser light pointing to the greater light? It seems that is is the otherway around. Can anyone expand on the justification of placing Sister White's writings above scripture?
God Bless,
Will

Here are some words from Sister White regarding the volatile subject of mis-using her writings to supercede the Bible.

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The Spirit was not given-- nor can it ever be bestowed--to supersede the Bible; for the Scriptures explicitly state that the Word of God is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. . . . Isaiah declares, "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them" (Isa. 8:20).--The Great Controversy, Introduction, p. vii. {3SM 30.5}

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quote:

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Testimonies Never Contradict the Bible.--The Bible must be your counselor. Study it and the testimonies God has given; for they never contradict His Word.--Letter 106, 1907. {3SM 32.3}

If the Testimonies speak not according to this word of God, reject them. Christ and Belial cannot be united.--Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 691. {3SM 32.4}

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God Bless,
Will

There is a topic on the purpose of the writings of EGW in the SDA Church Concerns forum, therefore, let us discuss that aspect of this topic there, which should help us in thsi and other topics in which the writings of EGW are used.

Ack! Sorry about that Daryl. If you like you can delete my post, but I would like to copy it first into the forum you mentioned.

God Bless,
Will

All done Daryl I copied it over.

God Bless,
Will

Debbie you asked me a few questions: "1)which of Ellen Whites writings are inspirational and which are not?
2) And of those that are, do you feel they are less inspired than the prophets writings in the Bible?"

ah Debbie you try to trap me ( )
Answer 1) Those that were written with the intent of "inspired council" would be inspirational. The writtings that we (SDA) have taken from her private council to individuals on unique settings,would be questioned. In all any writting be it from EGW or another source, needs to be weighed by scripture to validate its use as prophetic.
2)Of those that "are" of course they are as "as inspired" as those of the Bible...

NOW this does not address the question of What About Social Drinking? So, here is a slant "how is it that we blacklist wine, but not soda pop? There have been many studies that show 1 glass of Soda Pop is more harmful than 1 glass of 5% Beer. What gives? If we see an SDA drinking a Mountain Dew most times we to would want a glass, and if not there would be few that would cast judgement upon him BUT: If he were to have 1 glass of beer we would send the Elders to "educate" him. Just a thought...

Jam 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

I am sure there will be those who will now say that those who smoke and drink do not know that those things are not good. There will always be people who like to make excuses for anything. Look at Adam and Eve. They started right away making excuses for their sin.

That verse is clear enough to me Avalee. I think it is wrong to drink, and wrong to smoke (anything), so this would be sinning against God. Thank you for that verse
God Bless,
Will

it is wrong to drive above the posted speed limits. It is wrong to: not wear a seat belt: not get enough sleep, to get angry, to eat too much, to eat sweets, to burp and not say "excuse et moi": to swim after dark, to drink a coffee, to stare at the sun, to sit too close to the TV, to do...
So it seems that we as SDA Christians have a list of don'ts and a list of do's:
I "DO" thank God that it is not by my checking this "check list" that will give me access to eternal life but it is only through the Blood of Jesus. Yes we must take care of the temple (our bodies) but our outward appearence is not the key to salvation...

That's right Daniel, it is only through Jesus Christ that we are saved.

God Bless,
Will

as we understand further what and how we should live, we all make life choices. YES it is best to not drink or eat harmful items, as well it is best to not look upon the evils that present themself in this world. ie: pornography, glutany, greed, etc... so I agree with you Will, we should not drink alcohol at all, abstanence (sp) is the best. BUT is it scriptural to abstain? I am not looking for a "loophole" to become a "social drinker" BUT at the same time, if I teach my brother that drinking is a sin, and forbidden how can I stand alone on the word of God with this? The point I am looking at is twofold. 1) Drunkenness is an abomination before the Lord. YES! We have many examples that state that to be Drunk is truly a sin before God.
2) to drink wine (fermented) Frigidaire did not make the wonderful high tech Refrigerators that we have in North America today. So for long term storage they would put the wine (grape juice) in skins or jars, and yes the juice would ferment. Was this juice now "unclean" to use? The text that says not to look upon the wine as it "swirls" or moves in the cup is 100% true, the point is at what point does wine swirl or move in the cup? If you take a glass of wine and a glass of Welch's Grape juice, there is no difference to your eye. If you have 3 or 4 glasses of wine, when you look upon the 4th or 5th glass you will no doubt see the wine swirl or move in the glass. This shows me that scripture is true to itself and to us by being consistent in that we are to not become intoxicated (drunk).
Any thoughts on this?
Thanks!

There were lots of posts on a daily basis here, until my last post. Does anyone have a response, thought or concern to add?
CHEERS

Daniel, I am familiar with the arguments for and against drinking alcohol. I am convinced alcohol is a sin. Here's why: one sip is enough to impair our judgment and our ability to recognize and resist sin, self and Satan. I am unwilling to give our Enemy even the slightest advantage because, like you, I am determined to fight the good fight of faith, and I need all the juice I can muster. That's what I tell my non-Christian friends who ask me about alcohol, and they seem to be satisfied with that answer.

Excellent statement Mike! I for one am going to enjoy a nice tall iced glass of Welch's Grape juice and toast this last post!
Cheers!

Right on! But having said all that, I am not so sure that taking a sip of alcohol is the same as sinning. Alcohol may be a sin, but sin and sinning are two different issues. Getting hammered, no doubt, is sinning. But there is a difference between one sip and dumb drunk.

Like we agreed upon, one sip is too much for us. We are unwilling to give Satan even the slightest advantage. But one sip of alcohol is no excuse for sinning. It may be the reason why we take our eyes off Jesus and commit a sin, but it does not count as an excuse for sinning.

The reason I mention this business of one sip of alcohol is because I have met people who refuse to use over the counter cough medicine for colds because they think it is a sin due to the slight alcohol content.

1. Is it a sin to use medicine if it contains trace amounts of alcohol?

2. Is it impossible to resist temptation if we use medicine that contains trace amounts of alcohol?

Mike,

I don't consider medicine with trace elements of alcohol in it as social drinking, therefore, are you then saying that it isn't a sin to have a social drink of fermented wine, for example, with your meal? Or, if wine is a bad example, then rum or whisky or vodka, or whatever?

Who is to say whether or not it is a sin to use alcohol based medicine? Do you have a Bible or SOP quote to back up your opinion?

Is it a sin to drink wine, whiskey, beer, rum, vodka, etc? I don't know. The Bible clearly condemns getting drunk. But at what point is someone considered drunk? Is it the same as the legal blood alcohol limit for driving a vehicle?

If it's not a sin to use alcohol based medicine, then would it be a sin to socially sip the equivalent alcohol content of wine? If so, then what makes the difference?

One thing I do know. There is no excuse for sinning, no matter how strong the temptation or how weak our resolve. God said He will not allow us to be tempted above His ability to empower us to resist unto His honor and glory. 1 Cor 10:13.

Does that include situations where we go places or do things unbidden by God? Does His promise still apply? Well, one thing remains true - there is no excuse for sinning! no matter what weakens our resolve. Yes, there are reasons why we fall, but they don't count as excuses.

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2. Is it impossible to resist temptation if we use medicine that contains trace amounts of alcohol?

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Mike,

If, as you say, alcohol is a sin, then sipping or tasting this sinful alcohol is sinning.

Here is what EGW has to say about that:

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Warned That They May Escape the Evil Results.--With the awful results of indulgence in intoxicating drink before us, how is it that any man or woman who claims to believe in the word of God, can venture to touch, taste, or handle wine or strong drink? Such a practice is certainly out of harmony with their professed faith. . . . {Te 42.3}

The Lord has given special directions in His word in reference to the use of wine and strong drink. He has forbidden their use, and enforced His prohibitions with strong warnings and threatenings. But His warning against the use of intoxicating beverages is not the result of the exercise of arbitrary authority. He has warned men, in order that they may escape from the evil that results from indulgence in wine and strong drink. . . . {Te 42.4}

The liquor traffic is a terrible scourge to our land, and is sustained and legalized by those who profess to be Christians. In thus doing, the churches make themselves responsible for all the results of this death-dealing traffic. The liquor traffic has its root in hell itself, and it leads to perdition. These are solemn considerations.--Review and Herald, May 1, 1894. {Te 43.1}

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It can't be said any clearer than that!

I agree that drinking wine or strong drink is wrong. Therefore, I don't do it - not even a social sip. Not one drop. But the closet thing I've found, so far, calling it a sin is the following quote.

CD 217.3
Very explicit was the command prohibiting the use of wine by the mother. Every drop of strong drink taken by her to gratify appetite endangers the physical, mental, and moral health of her child, and is a direct sin against her Creator.

Yes, Mike, that is much clearer than the quote I provided.