Here is the first one:

quote:

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#1 - What is sin?

A. Sin is any want of conformity unto, or transgression of, the law of God [a].

[a]. Lev. 5:17; Jas. 4:17; I John 3:4

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This one seems to be right on the mark, doesn't it!

__________________________
Great peace have they which
love thy law: and nothing
shall offend them.
Psalms 119:165

Daryl

That is a good question that you asked.

I will let them, the Presbyterians, answer that question, but first, let us post the references they gave here.

Leviticus 5:17 "And if a soul sin, and commit any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD; though he wist it not, yet is he guilty, and shall bear his iniquity."

James 4:17 "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin."

1 John 3:4 "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

So what law do you ask? Is there any other law? Let us go on to one of their own beliefs about that.

quote:

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#2 - Wherein is the moral law summarily comprehended?

A. The moral law is summarily comprehended in the ten commandments [a].

[a]. Deut. 4:13; Matt. 19:17-19

#3 - What is the sum of the ten commandments?

A. The sum of the ten commandments is, To love the Lord our God with all our heart, with all our soul, with all our strength, and with all our mind; and our neighbour as ourselves [a].

[a]. Matt. 22:37-40

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To answer An Inquirer's question, it seems to me that they are referring to the law as the 10 commandments.

__________________________
Great peace have they which
love thy law: and nothing
shall offend them.
Psalms 119:165

Daryl

Presbyterians believe that infant baptism took the place of Old Testament circumcision. It shows that God has elected those whom He saves. The implication is that our salvation from sin (original sin in this case) is all God's doing, not our doing. This is why Calvinists reject adult baptism (unless you've just become Christian). To a Calvinist, adult baptism smacks too much of "Hey, look what I've done to earn my own salvation! I have decided to change my course in life and to get baptized."

I find Romans 6 to be a perfect antidote to a perceived "selfish" view of baptism. We're baptized into Christ's death--it is all what He has done--even though we're adults!

Sorry if I got ahead of the study on this one, but it relates directly to how Presbyterians view sin.

------------------
Be glad for all God is planning for you. Be patient in trouble, and always be prayerful. Rom. 12:12 NLT

__________________________
Great peace have they which
love thy law: and nothing
shall offend them.
Psalms 119:165

Daryl

And in Romans 3:10 it also says, "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"

Therefore, we have all transgressed God's law, His 10 Commandments.

__________________________
Psalms 119:165 "Great peace
have they which love thy law:
and nothing shall offend them."

Daryl

It is one thing to make a profession of a certain Biblical position but it is quite another thing to actually live up to your profession.

That applies equally to Adventists as it does to other denominations. It is quite clear however that the practice of the Presbyterian Church falls far short of their profession with regard to the fourth commandment!!

[This message has been edited by Allen Fowler (edited May 27, 2001).]

I think you will find it interesting when we get to what they have to say about the 4th Commandment.

I also agree with Pastor Larry regarding the choice factor. We can't help what we are, namely sinners, for all have sinned, however, we can choose what we do over what we are in relation to our being sinners saved by grace.

__________________________
Psalms 119:165 "Great peace
have they which love thy law:
and nothing shall offend them."

Daryl

[This message has been edited by Daryl Fawcett (edited May 27, 2001).]

quote:

---

#4 - What doth the preface to the ten commandments teach us?

A. The preface to the ten commandments teacheth us, That because God is the Lord, and our God, and Redeemer, therefore we are bound to keep all his commandments [a].

[a]. Luke 1:74-75; I Pet. 1:14-19

---

Interesting, eh!

What is your take on this statement of their's?

__________________________
Psalms 119:165 "Great peace
have they which love thy law:
and nothing shall offend them."

Daryl

[This message has been edited by Daryl Fawcett (edited May 27, 2001).]

I suspect that even God allows the issue of accountibility to dictate how sinful a particular sin is. And from my reading of Bible texts, our relationship with God is the only thing which can turn our filthy rags into that which is acceptable.
If our relationship with God isn't relevant, then there is no such thing as self-righteousness.
Zyph.

Ellen White was pretty adamant that there is only one defintion of sin, and that this is 1 Jn. 3:4. She was literally correct.

According to my college Greek class, if you have two interchangeable terms connected by the verb "to be," then both are preceeded by the definite article. If they aren't totally interchangeable, then there won't be an article in front of both. That's why "The Word was God" has no article in front of "God." Jesus is God, but God isn't Jesus. Pickles are cucumbers but cucumbers aren't pickles.

In 1 Jn. 3:4 we have an article in front of both terms, making this verse a definition. In "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin," we don't have an article in front of "sin." It's a description of sin, but not a definition.

In actuality, we could say that "Whatsoever is not of faith is transgression of the law," since the two terms are totally interchangeable.

[This message has been edited by zyph (edited May 28, 2001).]

From what I have read from our Presbyterian brethren I believe they are far closer to my beliefs in several areas than say... your run of the mill Dispensationalist Baptist.

Anyway Daryl, what are you quoting from? Are you going to cover the covenant aspect of their theology? I've found it to be very similar to ours though I believe they rightly put a lot more emphasis on it then we often do.

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Col 3:16; Eph 4:29,32; 2 Cor 7:1

My caution icon simply means that I don't want to run ahead of the plan of this study, therefore, please be patient until we get to the part that interests you and also possibly others.

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

It sounds to me as if we do not understand sin the same. If you are a Presbyterian then I will understand why, for the Calvinist roots of Presbyterianism are actually Augustinian roots, and Augustinian roots are Manichean roots. And Manichean conception of good and evil arises outside of the Scripture. I have been operating under the assumption that you are SDA.

You state (in another post): "If we can obey--do--outside of faith, then transgression of the law must embrace more than what we do." It is true that we really can't obey outside of faith. But it is not correct to say that because this is true, "the transgression of the law must embrace more than what we do."

B does not follow A. You've made no substantive connection.

But please, let's not be hasty. I pray that nothing I have written above may offend.

1. (quote) "Did Adam sin because he was sinful? Satan? Neither one had an equipment problem when they were factory-fresh from God's creating hand."

Response - (quote from my previous posting, with emphasis added) "We sin because we're sinful, don't we? If the equipment worked, AND WE WANTED TO RESIST any sin, don't you think we could? ADAM HAD NO EXCUSE, remember."

Question: Do you agree that the thing which died in Eden was man's capacity to desire God, and that since then all men must be born again to acquire that? If not, what is the new birth?

2. (quote) "But Scripture nowhere says we are "born sinners."

Response - The bible says ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of god. Doesn't that mean the babies as well as the old people? You mentioned sins committed in ignorance - as when a child sins - but they're sins anyway, and if done in ignorance, and the person is not held accountable, they are still sins. Or do you say there is an age when the same action ceases to be a non-sin, and becomes a sin? Or can children not sin?

3. (quote) "You suggest that one unconverted can obey by "gritting" one's teeth and be "good," because sin is what we do. Because however "whatever is not of faith is sin (Romans 14:23), the unconverted cannot render real obedience."

This is where you've really missed my point. I really didn't murder anyone today. I didn't have to grit my teeth (although there are days when I might have to!!) Your statement "...sin is what we do..." and " If we obey Him (a non-merit bearing condition) we come into positive relationship with Him." surely imply that the opposite is also correct, i.e. obedience is what we do (or perhaps fail to do), and if we disobey him we go out from a positive relationship with Him. If sin is what we do, then the unconverted who can "do" the same actions as the converted have obeyed. If it runs deeper than that - that is, "Whatever is not of faith is sin" - then sin HAS something to do with faith, and not JUST DOING, or actions. Please don't tell me I didn't obey the commandment not to murder today. I did, and it was easy. I merely failed to commit that sin.

The examples I wrote were based on your premise that sin is something we do. They are far from what I believe.

Can you please give me your definition of self-righteousness?

The last thing I want to say - in this hoge-podge of a post - is that if the only way we can relate to God is by obedience, and apparrently it must be total or we're damned, then why is there a parable about the growth of a plant? Does this not apply to development of the Christian?
Zyph.

The plant is perfect at each stage of its growth. We could say (if this were a moral category) that it is obeying God by doing what it is supposed to through the life He grants it. I have no problem with this illustration. In fact, I think it is a helpful one and am glad you mentioned it.

Zyph, pardon me if I offended in any way. Our viewpoints up to now appear to have been very different perspectives. The SDA's (we believe) biblically informed conception of sin is strikingly different from that of many Christians and has a very strange look at the first.

It may be that our interaction will proceed better if I either post or email you a document or two that I have on this. Any preference?

May God bless our discussion of His holy Word, and may we be new friends of each other in Christ.
LK

Collision With Prophecy

Collision With Prophecy #3:
Axe of the Ages

[NOTE: be sure to read the companion document to this sermon, Misunderstood Texts on Sin.]

Introduction

Fundamental. Some things are simply fundamental. There are some things that are "showstoppers:" sometimes, so many false ideas have been cast into the stream that unless they are confronted, we simply will not understand. Tonight we are going to look at one such topic. In our last meeting, we looked at
a crucial topic on how God interprets prophecy. Well, tonight when you leave the meeting this evening, I hope that you'll go with sharpened clarity on the point we're about to explore. You see, we can't really understand prophecy unless we get this. We need to look into a question, and we need to do so very lucidly. It's been twisted and spun like a top by thinkers, both the great and the obscure, for thousands of years. Here, as at no other place in our study, we need the plainest "thus saith the Lord." The question we speak of is: "what is sin?"

"But pastor," you might be thinking, "that's an easy one. Don't waste our time there." Well, I will agree with you--if we are talking about what the Bible teaches, then it is easy. But beloved, for a long time certain ideas about sin have been brought to God's Word and an attempt made to graft them onto it. So before we move on, let's pause first and make sure that we haven't swallowed any lies about sin.

Sin, Decision, and Prophecy

Definitions are very, very important. So important that whole classes of workers have arisen to deal with definitions: bureaucrats, lawyers, and many others. But it's not just specialists. It's everyone, everyday. We all sort things, and we all define things. When we go to the store and purchase toothpaste, we look at the price. We decide whether what the store is asking for that tube of toothpaste is definable as a good price or a bad one. When you buy gasoline, you don't just zoom to the most expensive gas station in town, do you? No. You think carefully about where you can buy it at the lowest cost. Even when we read, we are dealing with a set of definitions. The word, "yes," and the word, "no," have in our minds, two very different definitions. When you ask someone to marry you, the difference in their answer between "yes" and "no" is very important to you just then. And not just then; consequences of the whole question are life-long. Then there is another word: "divorce." Divorce shows that many people in our world today have different definitions about marriage. Constantly, in many ways that we do not think of, we are sorting. We are thinking. We are making distinctions. We are defining.

Now if you were the devil, you'd be "the father of lies" (John 8:44). And as the father of lies, how interested would you be in definitions? Friends, you cannot lie without definitions! Make no mistake. Definitions are very, very important to us.

But when we come to Bible prophecy how is it? Friends, prophecy is the most symbolic language in the Bible--the most figurative. As such, if we are not careful, it is the most easily twisted. That is, it is probably the easiest part of the Bible to misinterpret, either intentionally or unintentionally. One night during these meetings I'm going to share with you the three main methods or "schools" of prophetic interpretation. You want to talk about lies . . . You are going to be shocked!

But tonight, let's look more closely at our own hearts. Sin is a dangerous topic. Consider this statement from God's Word. In the New Testament, in 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12, we read:

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Why are people sent strong delusion? Verse ten says it's because they refuse to receive a "love of the truth, that they might be saved." But did you notice something here? God sends them strong delusion! That's right! Read it for yourselves. That's what it says.

But the Bible also says that in Him there's "no shadow of turning" (James 1:17), that "God cannot lie" (Titus 1:2). And He can't lie. No, there's no darkness in Him. He can see in the darkness, but there's no darkness in Him. Notice very carefully that He sends "strong delusion" only to those who have pleasure in unrighteousness. Those who enjoy sin, are allowed to enjoy it. But in the end they'll be damned. And when we come to this question about sin, we need to be very careful. Because the way we perceive things doesn't necessarily change the way things are. A misunderstanding of sin on our part won't steop it from impacting us just the same.

Don't forget, they refuse to receive a love of the truth. And who is the truth? Jesus said, "I am the Way, the truth, and the Life" (John 14:6). If we don't receive from Jesus, the very Source of truth, then we recieve from Satan, the very source of untruth. Its an either-or thing.

Here are two hearts: one converted, and one unconverted. And we haven't talked much about that yet (but we will). I say to you that the way you or I look at sin will have a lot to do with the state of our hearts. If we are unconverted, we'll prefer a definition of sin that gives us permission, either implicitly or explicitly, to do many things that God says "thou shalt not" too. And I'll go further yet. I believe that the state of your heart determines what assistants you bring with you to your study of the Word.

"What do you mean brother Larry?" Well, I mean that we've been given a free choice. What happens is, God sends strong delusion by honoring our choice of assistants. Either we are receiving the supernatural aid of unfallen angels from God as we think on spiritual things, or we are receiving the aid of fallen angels, demons. Our minds are very weak, and are easily influenced by supernatural beings. I mean, stop and think about it for a minute. Do you know some people who seem like they are always being manipulated by other people? And you can see it but they cannot? people can manipulate other people fairly easily. Is it such a stretch then to think that other beings, smarter than humans, can manipulate us? Come on.

In this world we are never really alone. The angels--good and bad--are always there. They see you. They influence you. Oh yes; Make no mistake; when you are studying the Bible, you have help. But your attitude about sin will determine whether evil angels or holy angels are influencing your mind.

Now let's jump into our topic; what about prophecy and sin? When His disciples asked Jesus about the end-time, He told them to keep their eyes open. His pointed warning was to "take heed that no one deceive you " (Matthew 24:4). The New Testament goes on to point out three special "falses" that we must watch out for: false Christs, false prophets, and false teachers (Matthew 24:11, 24; 2 Peter 2:1-3; Jude, etc.).

But in a special sense, the prophesied danger of the end-times is false teachers. Hear Peter:

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. (2 Peter 2:1-3).

Yes--the danger of our day is still of false Christs, and false prophets--but perhaps most especially, it is false teachers. And I hate to say it, but the very reason that tonight's topic is so necessary, is because some of the false teachers so prophesied have already come and tainted the water. They've already come and taken spoils. They've already come and led Christianity into a "sin-and-live" theology. And God knows that before He finishes His work in this earth in the end-time we need to be delivered from this way of thinking about sin. So tonight's topic truly has its place. You will hardly be able to believe what we are going to share during the next few minutes!

So let's look at this. What--according to the Bible--is sin?

(end pt 1)

A Bible Definition of "Sin"

We want to understand what the Bible definition of sin is--not just the New Testament or just the Old Testament. Some are in the habit of looking only at what the New Testament says. That's bad theology. The Word must be rightly divided (2 Timothy 2:15 ). It must be rightly understood, rightly weighed. A good principle of Bible interpretation is to pay close attention to the first occurrence of any principle in its pages, but then continue also through all its texts. Let's try it and see what happens.

Genesis 2:16

Turn with me to Genesis 2:16. There we find God's explicit command to the man not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. After Adam had eaten it (Genesis 2:17; Genesis 3:6, 11), God reminds him again that He had given him a command. That Adam sinned is confirmed both by the New Testament (Romans 5:14), and by the fact of Adam's punishment for disobeying (Genesis 3:17-19; Genesis 5:5). But why didn't Adam die the same day that he sinned? Or did he? We'll take a moment with that in our next meeting. But notice here that God gave a command, man disobeyed, and the result was punishment for a violation of the universe's moral code. Sin is disobedience to God.

Genesis 4:3-8

The very next time we find sin in the Bible is the murder of Abel by his brother Cain. Turn with me to Genesis 4:3-8:

And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

A very sad story: almost the first murder (yes, there was one before this that we'll hear about in our next meeting). But I hope that you paid close attention to that seventh verse: "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

First, Cain had disobeyed; he had not brought with him the offering that God had required. Really, he had already sinned in that, for he had willfully disobeyed. But something else was also escalating: his anger. God saw that, and sought to help him. He sought to reason with him. "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?" Heaven tried to reason with Cain. God sought to show him how unjustified was his anger. But not only that; also, the necessity of his gaining the victory. Look again at the last part of the verse: "And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him . . ."

Just here is a critical point. "Unto thee shall be his desire," said God. Here, sin is very closely identified with Satan. Make no mistake; Satan is the author of sin and all its results. On one occasion Jesus told Peter that Satan desired to sift him like wheat (Luke 22:31). Satan had tried the same thing with Cain. But although sin is very closely identified with Satan, Cain's choice to sin was not the devil's to make, it was Cain's to make.

This verse has the Bible's first literal use of the word "sin." It likens sin to something alive and almost autonomous--almost self-choosing. But only "almost." Why is it only almost? From the very beginning of Scripture, sin has to do with choice. Notice the hierarchy of control. "And unto thee shall be his ["sin" in figure] desire. But you shall rule over him." Don't miss this: to fallen man, God says victory is possible. Knowing how Cain, born after the fall, was wired--knowing that his faculties were sharply impacted by sin--that he, like everyone "born of a woman" is born "without strength" (Romans 5:6), God urges Cain onward to present victory over sin.

Deuteronomy 24:16

"The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin." We have a tendency to distance ourselves from responsibility for our own sin. Back in the 1970's a certain television comedian became known for a snappy saying: "The devil made me do it." That line evoked a great deal of laughter. But friends, the devil can't make you do anything. He can tempt you, but choice rests with you. Sometimes someone on trial for murder will plead that he was not responsible for something he did while under the influence of drugs. But really, he became responsible the moment that he chose to take a substance into his body that would cause him to lose his inhibitions and his capacity to control his actions. The death penalty is here (Deuteronomy 24) applicable only to the individual(s) directly responsible for the crime of murder.

It is an important principle to keep in mind that each of us are personally responsible for our own sins. Responsibility cannot be transferred. Punishment for sin is always a personal matter, and (at the human level) is non-transferable.

Ezekiel 18:19-21

Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Like Deuteronomy 24:16 , this passage insists again that sin is not transmittable through genetic or familial means. A descendent of a car thief is himself not a car thief, unless he too steals automobiles. So here is good news: you won't be punished for your parent's sins, or your grandparent's sins, or your great-grandparent's sins, etc. You'll be punished for your own sins, or better yet, you'll "turn from all your sins which you have committed," and surely live.

"But," you say, "I always understood that we are all guilty through Adam's first sin." We're going to talk about that in a few minutes friends. But for now hold on, because we aren't here to cheapen anything. Keep this in mind: we each have enough of our own sins to most thoroughly condemn, without even starting to add Adam's transgressions into the mix. No man (but Christ) has ever lived who did not deserve eternal death for the long dark list of his own sins. This passage teaches that our actions demonstrate concrete evidence of our inward attitude toward sin. The inward attitude condemns or vindicates us, but the outward actions reveal what's inside. The guilt of sin doesn't pass on from person to person through their DNA.

John 9:39-41

"And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. And some of the Pharisees which were with Him heard these words, and said unto Him, Are we blind also? Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth." When we unknowingly do what is wrong, we are not condemned. This is the teaching of Jesus. "If ye were blind, ye should have no sin." But when our eyes are opened, then our sin remains. When it is revealed to us that something is sin, then we become morally accountable in regard to it.

"Well," you say, "then I will make sure I stay far away from any Bible or religious meetings!" Nice try. But Jesus also said of the Holy Spirit, "And when He is come, He will reprove the of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment [justice]" (John 16:8). Friends, I want you to know that the Holy Spirit is no dupe. You cannot lie to Him (Acts 5:3-4). He is not interested in our "parsing" of fine legal language and rationalizations and excuses for our sins. The Word of God "is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart" (Hebrews 4:12). Jesus' mission is such that it is calculated to reveal "the thoughts of many hearts," (Luke 2:25), and it reveals yours too. God's judgment is not according to appearance, but according to righteous judgment (John 7:26 ). You can't put one over on God.

If someone tells you that you can be a Christian and disobey God, you should be very careful. Remember, we read the special Bible warning of false teachers to come in the last days. Take advantage of every opportunity for becoming acquainted with the truth. If, when the truth might have been yours, you conscientiously believe a lie, that fact won't save you. You can be saved in honest obedience to the truth; but if God grants to you the privilege of knowing and obeying the truth, and you neglect so great salvation, your very privileges will be recorded against you, to appear for your condemnation in the judgment. We'll all be without excuse if we fail to appropriate the promises of God and let Jesus change us. You and I may be sure that ignorance is no excuse for error or sin when there is every opportunity to know the will of God. The Bible is within our reach, and God knows it is.

This passage says that sin requires our awareness (or potential awareness) in order to condemn us.

Romans 7:7

"What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." Paul here directs us to the Ten Commandments in order to get our definition of sin. He says that he wouldn't have known what sin was unless the Ten Commandments told him. The example he gives is the tenth commandment. This is pretty plain teaching, friends. To disobey God's law is to sin.

Romans 14:23

"Whatever is not of faith is sin." The situation we are in is desperate indeed. Our human nature has been ruined by the fall of our race. What God originally created "very good," has now been so terribly warped that we can do nothing on our own apart from God that isn't tainted with wicked motivations. That is to say that the best we can do, apart from God, is always laced with the poison of sin. If we would obey our Father, we must exercise faith in Him and His Son.

This verse informs us that everything we do must have its source in our faith in God or it will not be without sin.

James 1:14-15

Pay very close attention to what these verses say:

Every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

This is very important. Temptation is not sin. It just isn't. To be tempted is not to sin--not biblically. When you are tempted, and you resist by the power of God, then you haven't sinned. It is "when lust hath conceived" that it becomes sin.

Don't mistake inward and outward as being two different things. To lust for a woman in your heart is to sin, even if never outwardly expressed. It is a violation of God's law. It is just as certainly an act--simply one occuring instead on the inside. To suddenly be tempted to play with a tantalizing lustful thought, but through the grace of God to reject it and eject it from your mind in the emergency, is not to sin. Temptation is not sin; giving in to temptation is.

James 4:17

"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." A sin of ommission is one where we know that we should take a positive action but we refuse to. That refusal to act, is sin. This doesn't mean any random occasion when we could invest our time in doing good but don't, but applies to occasions when plain that a specific action for good ought to be taken, and you don't take it. The key point here again is that moral knowledge and capacity to act make us accountable.

1 John 3:4

"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." This is probably the clearest verse in all the Bible to help us in getting a hold of God's definition of sin. To sin is to go across the line, to "transgress" His law. Some Bible versions have translated this as "sin is lawlessness." That translation is also correct. The literal Greek reads, hamartia estin anomia,--"sin is no-law." That is, it is sin to go across the line of God's moral boundary, to transgress it. The Scriptures defining sin all sort themselves out in a very plain manner. Sin is the transgression of God's law.

Bible Definitions of Sin Summarized

We may conclude our survey then, with these points:

1. Sin is disobedience to God.


2. God expects victory over sin. Even in our fallen nature we should (through His power) rule over it.


3. Punishment for sin is always a personal matter.


4. Guilt for sin is not transmitted from generation to generation, although the destructive impact resulting from sin continues from generation to generation.


5. Knowledge and awareness of sin requires our awareness (or opportunity for becoming aware) in order for it to condemn us.


6. To disobey God's law is sin.


7. What we do must be motivated by our faith in God, or it is tainted with sin.


8. Temptation is not sin; giving in to temptation is sin.

So how thoroughly was our nature impacted by the fall? Very thoroughly. But whatever weakness we received from our original parents through the fall as its result, our Lord also stands ready to give us His power to overcome it. Through the fall we are made to be "without strength" (Romans 5:6). But "where sin abounded, grace did much more abound" (Romans 5:20). Our nature is bad--it's ruined. But our Savior is good--He's ready to heal us. Tonight we have no excuses to linger any longer in sin. Instead, we should follow God's advice to Cain: "You should rule over it!"

(end pt 2)

Original Sin?

You'll remember that at the beginning of tonight's presentation we read the prophecy that many false teachers would come at the end. We saw how they would teach a sin-and-live understanding of the gospel. We saw that God would let them take their pleasure in unrighteousness if they insisted on it, but that they would finally be destroyed. Now we've carefully reviewed how God defines sin. Let me ask you this question: do you think it's likely that fallen people would try to come up with another--any other--definition of sin, than what God said? Such a definition would inevitably--however it were formulated--try to open a door for people to keep sinning while thinking they were saved. Let's take the last part of this meeting then, and trace-out exactly what has happened on this point. Have you ever heard the phrase "original sin?"

A Man Named Augustine

It comes from a teaching by the famous individual whom history calls St. Augustine, the Bishop of Hippo. Born in A. D. 354, the writings he left changed Christendom.

Augustine was a convert from Manichaeism, a non-Christian teaching insisting on a dualistic universe. He struggled with sexual temptations, and in the process became convinced that Adam and Eve's having sex had been the "original sin." He was a prolific writer, and after his death his writings exerted greater and greater influence. Among his teachings was what came to be known as the doctrine (the teaching) of "original sin."

Augustine taught that everyone ever born after the fall was, in fact, born guilty of Adam's sin. That is, not only Adam was guilty for the sin that he had chosen to commit, but that all of his descendents were also guilty of the sin that Adam alone had chosen to commit. If this sounds diametrically opposed to several of the Scriptures that we just studied, it is because it is! But this man was no dummy. He may have been wrong, but that didn't stop him from having a key verse to be wrong about. He centered his teaching on a text in the book of Romans. And we ought to turn there for a minute and take a look at it. It is Romans 5:12.

Working from the Latin Vulgate and not from the original Greek, Augustine followed Jerome's unfortunate translation of the verse. The verse in question, in King James, reads: "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." Augustine though, built his arguments on the Latin version, in which the Greek phrase eph' ho is rendered "in him," so that the last part of the passage reads, "for in him all men sinned." Today, by scholars it is universally agreed that the proper translation of this phrase in this passage indeed is, as given in the KJV, "for that [or because] all have sinned." Indeed, if Paul had meant that all had sinned in Adam, he could have saved us all the problem by simply using the two words en Adam, ("in Adam"). Nonetheless, with the passage of years Augustine's ideas came to form the foundation of most of Christendom's understanding of what sin is.

Luther and Calvin

Enter stage left two extraordinary men, to whom history owes much: Martin Luther and John Calvin. God used Luther as the lightening rod of the Protestant Reformation. But before that, he'd been a Catholic monk; he was a faithful son of his church. He had become, in fact, a monk of a certain order--an Augustinian monk!

What did this mean? Well, the short version is that before he'd scarcely seen a Bible, he'd read, reread, and re-reread, and re-re-reread, the voluminous writings of St. Augustine. The observation has been made that as Luther walked through those electrifying years of history, he was able to shed many of the errors that had entered the Roman Catholic Church since the time of Augustine, but almost none of the errors launched into Christianity by Augustine themselves. He persisted, until the day that he died, to believe much of what Augustine had taught--including original sin.

Luther also added a teaching to Christianity called simul justus et peccator--the teaching that Christians are, "at the same time both justified and a sinner;" that complete victory over sin was not possible for the Christian in this life. In other words, his teaching was a pre-curser to today's "sin-and-live" theology.

Calvin, the great organizer of the Reformed branch of Christian thought through his "Institutes" books, had also been a voracious consumer of Augustine's thought, as his numerous quotations from the Bishop of Hippo demonstrate. In short, while the Protestant Reformers came blazing along with much sound and timely reform, they didn't see and understand all their issues all at once. They were still coming forth from a tremendous fund of darkness; it shouldn't surprise us that they didn't get everything right. Now I don't want anyone to walk out of here tonight saying, "He bashed Luther and Calvin--the foremost of the Protestant Reformers!" Not at all. Actually, it was through them that many of the positive things we'll be sharing reached their main development. No. What we are trying to do here is simply to be straight. We can be lucid about what they saw clearly, while we need still to be lucid about what they didn't see clearly. If they were here today, it is altogether possible that they would see this issue--God's versus man's understanding of sin--"the axe of the ages" so to speak--much more clearly. We're not slamming these men. We honor their spirit of reform by responding to the light available in our own day, just as they did by responding to the light available in theirs.

The Shape of Their Ideological Descendents In Our Day

So where have their descendents steered to today? Many Christians are stuck in the quicksand of an understanding of sin saying that during this present life we can never overcome. The result has been a declining Christianity playing in the sharp-edged toxic-waste of sin. Friends, there is a lot of sin going on today--a lot of it right in the church. There is a lot of cheapened Christianity palming itself off as the real thing. Why? In part because sin has been redefined as temptation. This unbiblical understanding raises the bar so high that anything less than the perfection of the infinite God is considered to be sin. Thus, God is the only one who can keep from sinning. We don't even have a chance. The end result is that because they've been taught this, many church-going folk don't even try to overcome sin any more. And they still think they are going to heaven.

God's Goal For Us

You've seen it tonight friends, from the pages of God's Word. Jesus prophesied of false-teachers in the last-days. His Word said that they would heap up to themselves teachers that would preach a smooth theology, because they would have "itching ears" (2 Timothy 4:3). They would receive strange doctrines, and have their understanding of God's Word cut out from under them and replaced with a theology of fables. They would be taught that they could sin-and-live and still get to heaven--where the Bible declares that "nothing that defileth" shall enter in (Revelation 21:27).

In a very real sense, Augustine has never died--he lives on today through his false doctrine of original sin. But we're not trying to single out Augustine; if it hadn't been him, it just would have been someone else that would have been used to inject this idea into Christianity. Augustine planted the seed, and today the plant is spread over our planet like an out of control weed--a destructive virus insinuating itself into the way most Christians think about how they live.

God's goal for us today is to live in victory over sin; not under the condemnation incurred by breaking His holy Law. We must accept no substitutes. The issue of sin is the axe of the ages. We need to operate with God's definitions in mind and then overcome, or we can try to walk the Christian pathway with Satan's definitions as our working-model, failing ultimately of victory and of eternal life. Don't just blindly accept what you've been told. Study it. Know for yourself. There is a lot at stake; even eternal life. What a deception our foe has launched--one that seems so pious, and yet one defrauding us by removing even the possibility of victory. God has something better for us. Don't let Satan's last deceptions undo you; even now we are living under the time of their manifestation. Right now! But take this truth home tonight friends: Jesus is able to keep you from falling (Jude 23-24).

Conclusion and Preview

I have to tell you that this false teaching on what sin is has led to the teaching of a false Christ. Don't miss our next meeting as we peek into Revelation 13 and see the real christ, the one that the lamb-like beast is trying to pass himself off as. Are you worshiping the true Jesus of Bible prophecy? Our next meeting is Behold the Lamb of God.

Good night everyone. See you at our next meeting. Now, let's close with prayer . . .

(end pt 3 of 3)

Hope this helps. God bless. LK

Search for "only defintion sin" on the EGW CD-ROM, and you end up with 23 references where she says that the only definition of sin found in the Bible is "transgression of the law." I understand your suggestion about obedience and faith, but we still ahve these statements, which are explained by the grammatical principle I presented.

Are you a Christian of the Presbyterian persuation?

Justin

[This message has been edited by Justin (edited May 29, 2001).]

quote:

---

zyph
Member (MSDAOL)

Posts: 72
From: Australia
Registered: Feb 2001
posted February 21, 2001 07:04 AM

I'm a baptised Seventh-day Adventist, but I haven't been to church regularly for about 11
years. I'm not a committed Christian at this time. I'm hoping to gain some inspiration via
the net. I am a deep thinker and crave the challenge and satisfaction of complex bible study. I'm single (divorced) with an adult son who suffers from ADD, 45 years old, and I work for a religious charity which assists homeless persons.
I encounter many people who want to discuss spiritual issues. I'm a former Sabbath School
superintendent, and senior Sabbath School teacher. I've had a couple of articles published in the Australasian Record, although that was years ago, now. I'm not looking at a list of the questions, but I hope I've given you enough information. Oh, I firmly believe Ellen White had the gift of prophecy, and have been moved by her writings
in a way no ordinary literature has achieved.
I'd like to be allowed to access as many forum areas as I can. Thank you very much. I'm feeling very impressed with this site.

---

There you have it. zyph is a member of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

[This message has been edited by Daryl Fawcett (edited May 29, 2001).]

I myself was a Presbyterian before accepting the Adventist faith in 1985. That was after my vehemently resisting against Adventism for 7 years.

Zyph,

I guess you have much to read from Pastor Kirkpatrick's posts. Being an Adventist and recognizing the prophetic role of Ellen White should give us more common ground to talk about this basic question of "What is Sin?" and other related issues. If you were a Presbyterian, I thought that we might have to take different approaches to this question - from the Scriptural perspective - for the obvious reason.

I believe that our understanding (definition) of "what sin is" will take us to two totally difference paths to the belief of our salvation - which is the essential difference between Adventism and other popular Protestant and Roman Catholoc teaching. Yet, in most cases, I have found that many arguments against our Adventist understanding of "what sin is" stem from those sincere people's confusion between "Sin" and "Effects (or Curses) of Sin".

Hope to hear further from you on this forum.

God bless,

Justin

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

RE: "If all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, then where is the qualifying text which says they haven't until they reach the age of accountability?"

The Romans 3:23 or 5:12 ("FOR THAT ALL HAVE SINNED") means what it says. It didn't say that all have INHERITED GUILT from Adam. It just says all have sinned on their own and are guilty thereof. Ezekiel 18:20 - "The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father" should rightly qualify these verses.

Now, forgetting the age of accountability just for a moment, there are many texts in the Bible which indicates God's not holding man accountable for sins of ignorance. Isn't God merciful?

Leviticus 4:22-24 & 27-29

When a ruler hath sinned, and done somewhat through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD his God concerning things which should not be done, and is guilty; Or if his sin, wherein he hath sinned, come to his knowledge; he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a male without blemish: And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the goat, and kill it in the place where they kill the burnt offering before the LORD: it is a sin offering.

And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty; Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned. And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.

John 9:41

Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

John 15:22

If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.

Acts 17:30

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent

James 4:17

Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. (This one directly links sin with one's knowledge and choice)

Therefore, I suggest, GUILT (condemnation) is not automatically incurred by a violation of God's law. Only when the act is WILLFUL rather than from ignorance, the violation will bring in the guilt. The attitude and will of the law breaker is the deciding factor here.

Now, going back to your question concerning "the age of accountability", my attitude is that all-knowing God knows when & for which acts for each child. We don't know and we shouldn't care except for our own selves. And He provided the justification and pardon when we come to the knowledge of our sin and repent.

On the definition of sin, Romans 14:23 - "whatsoever is not of faith is sin" - which you've quoted also defines sin as something of "doubt". Isn't this within the area of human consciousness and will - hence our choice?

Justin

__________________________
Psalms 119:165 "Great peace
have they which love thy law:
and nothing shall offend them."

Daryl

------------------
Col 3:16; Eph 4:29,32; 2 Cor 7:1

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

[This message has been edited by Daryl Fawcett (edited June 01, 2001).]

Happy Sabbath to you!

I can see from reading your post that you and I don't have much difference in the understanding of sin. Perhaps this is also true with Pastor Kirkpatrick.

What I have meant by "doubt" with regard to "whatsoever not of faith" is this:

"The faith of Jesus." It is talked of, but not understood. What constitutes the faith of Jesus, that belongs to the third angel's message? Jesus becoming our sin-bearer that He might become our sin-pardoning Saviour. He was treated as we deserve to be treated. He came to our world and took our sins that we might take His righteousness. And faith in the ability of Christ to save us amply and fully and entirely is the faith of Jesus. {3SM page 172}

I believe all acts of unfaith stem from our distrust and/or doubt in "the ability of Christ to save us AMPLY and FULLY and ENTIRELY". This doubt is within the domain of our conscious decision-making and as such is within our will, choice and doing.

To quote Dennis Priebe, "Because we are born with fallen natures in a fallen world, we are naturally predisposed to commit acts of sin. The act of sin occurs, not when the deed is done, but when the decision is made by the mind to harbor thoughts or motivations which are contrary to God's will. The decision to sin, unless repented of, leads inevitably to a state of sin, which is seperation and estrangement from God."

Thus, you are correct in that the natural (uncoverted) man cannot escape the committing of sin.

Justin

I'm glad we are past the "relationship" issue. What I meant there to suggest was simply that when we boil things down to concrete expressions, real, raw-naked obedience is really the best determinant of what is going on. I never meant to imply that this obedience means anything apart from faith. Without faith it is impossibel to please God, as without faith it is impossible truly to obey.
LK

quote:

---

5. Which is the first commandment?

A. The first commandment is, Thou shalt have no other gods before me. [a]

[a]. Ex. 20:3; Deut. 5:7

6. What is required in the first commandment?

A. The first commandment requireth us to know and acknowledge God to be the only true God, and our God; and to worship and glorify him accordingly [a].

[a]. I Chron. 28:9; Isa. 45:20-25; Matt. 4:10

7. What is forbidden in the first commandment?

A. The first commandment forbiddeth the denying [a], or not worshipping and glorifying the true God as God [b.], and our God [c]; and the giving of that worship and glory to any other, which is due to him alone [d].

[a]. Ps. 14:1
[b.] Rom. 1:20-21
[c]. Ps. 81:10-11
[d]. Ezek. 8:16-18; Rom. 1:25

8. What are we specially taught by these words, "before me," in the first commandment?

A. These words, before me, in the first commandment teach us, that God, who seeth all things, taketh notice of, and is much displeased with, the sin of having any other God [a].

[a]. Deut. 30:17-18; Ps. 44:20-21; Ezek. 8:12

---

Any thoughts on what they stated regarding the 1st Commandment?

__________________________
Psalms 119:165 "Great peace
have they which love thy law:
and nothing shall offend them."

Daryl

[This message has been edited by Daryl Fawcett (edited June 10, 2001).]

quote:

---

9. Which is the second commandment?

A. The second commandment is, Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: thou shalt not bow down thy self to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; and showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. (a)

(a). Ex. 20:4-6; Deut. 5:8-10

10. What is required in the second commandment?

A. The second commandment requireth the receiving, observing, and keeping pure and entire, all such religious worship and ordinances as God hath appointed in his Word (a).

(a). Deut. 12:32; Matt. 28:20

11. What is forbidden in the second commandment?

A. The second commandment forbiddeth the worshipping of God by images (a), or any other way not appointed in his Word (b).

(a). Deut. 4:15-19; Rom. 1:22-23
(b). Lev. 10:1-2; Jer. 19:4-5; Col. 2:18-23

12. What are the reasons annexed to the second commandment?

A. The reasons annexed to the second commandment are, God's sovereignty over us (a), his propriety in us (b), and the zeal he hath to his own worship (c).

(a). Ps. 95:2-3, 6-7; 96:9-10
(b). Ex. 19:5; Ps. 45:11; Isa. 54:5
(c). Ex. 34:14; ICor. 10:22

---

Any more comments on what they believe about the 2nd Commandment, or on what I have been posting so far?

__________________________
Psalms 119:165 "Great peace
have they which love thy law:
and nothing shall offend them."

Daryl

quote:

---

13 - Which is the third commandment?

A. The third commandment is, Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. (a)

(a). Ex. 20:7; Deut. 5:11

14. What is required in the third commandment?

A. The third commandment requireth the holy and reverend use of God's names, titles (a), attributes (b), ordinances (c), Word (d), and works (e).

(a). Deut. 10:20; Ps. 29:2; Matt. 6:9
(b). I Chron. 29:10-13; Rev. 15:3-4
(c). Acts 2:42; I Cor. 11:27-28
(d). Ps. 138:2; Rev. 22:18-19
(e). Ps. 107:21-22; Rev. 4:11

15. What is forbidden in the third commandment?

A. The third commandment forbiddeth all profaning or abusing of anything whereby God maketh himself known (a).

(a). Lev. 19:12; Matt. 5:33-37; Jas. 5:12

16. What is the reason annexed to the third commandment?

A. The reason annexed to the third commandment is, that however the breakers of this commandment may escape punishment from men, yet the Lord our God will not suffer them to escape his righteous judgment (a).

(a). Deut. 28:58-59; ISam. 3:13; 4:11

---

Sounds clear to me. Any questions and/or comments?

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

quote:

---

#17. Which is the fourth commandment?

A. The fourth commandment is, Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work; but the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. (a)

(a). Ex. 20:8-11; Deut. 5:12-15

#18. What is required in the fourth commandment?

A. The fourth commandment requireth the keeping holy to God such set times as he hath appointed in his Word; expressly one whole day in seven, to be a holy sabbath to himself (a).

(a). Ex. 31:13, 16-17

# 19. Which day of the seven hath God appointed to be the weekly sabbath?

A. From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, God appointed the seventh day of the week to be the weekly sabbath (a); and the first day of the week ever since, to continue to the end of the world, which is the Christian sabbath (b).

(a). Gen. 2:2-3; Ex. 20:11
(b). Mark 2:27-28; Acts 20:7; ICor. 16:2; Rev. 1:10

---

Anybody have any thoughts on this belief of their's relating to the 4th Commandment?

_________________________
In His Love,Mercy & Grace

Daryl

_________________________
In His Love,Mercy & Grace

Daryl

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
	Hevrews 13:8

"...and the first day of the week ever since..." Ever since when??

Also, if the Sabbath was no longer to be kept, then there wouldn't have been any need to say what Christ did say.

Those are my thoughts on it.

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

"...and the first day of the week ever since..." Ever since when??
	quote: zyph

Does that make sense to you?

That is exactly what I was referring to.

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

[This message has been edited by Daryl Fawcett (edited October 01, 2001).]

Excellent reply regarding the reason why Christ said to pray that our flight would not be on the Sabbath day. That is exactly what I was referring to.
	quote: Daryl Fawcett

I would also like to point out that Daryl has just alluded to the fact that Matthew 24:20 is not just for the Jews; it applies to us as well, for we shall have to flee for our lives in the last days.

We also should pray that our flight not be in the winter nor on the Sabbath.

[This message has been edited by DenBorg (edited October 02, 2001).]